Why don't the Forsaken make angreal/ter'angreal/sa'angreal???

[RAND AL THOR]

The Forsaken have all the knowledge of the AoL, when all the angreal, ter'angreal and sa'angreal were made. So why don't they make some now to combat Rand? Instead we see Sammael desperately trying to find the angreal cache in LoC.

 

Nynaeve/Elayne learned a lot from Moghedien. I think Elayne's ter'angreal making has nothing to do with information extracted from Moghedien. But wouldn't the Forsaken have the knowledge of making such things, especially considering that most of them were very high up in the forces of the Light until they switched sides?

 

Asmodean or Aginor is the one who created trollocs/myrdraal. So they are researchers and have much knowledge. It only makes sense that they should be able to make sa'angreal etc...

 

??

[Lille]

Aginor created almost if not all shadowspawn, but he was a biolgist.

None of them knows how to make Angreal/Sa'angreal/Ter'angreal, seems like they werent alot of people who could even in the AoL. Elayne is the only one so far in the books who have managed to make ter'angreal and she showed several sisters how to, but none of them managed it.

 

So its something like a Talent, not like a weave most channelers can learn with practice.

[balefireruinssteaks]

If anyone knew how to make ter'angreal it would have been Lanfear because her occupation was a researcher in the One Power.  So she either brushed up against channelers who could make ter'angreal, angreal and sa'angreal or she knew the making herself.

 

Likely she couldn't do it herself or she would have I imagine.  Lanfear is power crazy.  But even if she had the knowledge it doesn't seem likely that she would have shared it.

 

And Lille is right - Aginor knew how to create, but he specialized in the creation of biological things, not ter'angreal, etc.

[42Bonzo88]

    My memory is shaky but I thought I read where one of the forsaken was trying to get to some ter'angreal, sa'angreal, etc. I would think that with thier knowlege that they would just be able to get existing things easier than making them themselves. Look at Sammael using things with the Shaido and Semi trying to use the Male a'dam against Rand.

[Dramalfian]

  I think making ter'angreal is probably an inborn talent. Elayne had more access to ter'angreal than if she spent her time of acceptance in the tower and was able to experiment more than if she was under the eye of the Aes Sedai. Possibly it is the same for angreal, and Sa'angreal, or perhaps making them requires men and women channeling together. We know this was true with Callandor. Either the Forsaken do not have the talent, or they don't trust each other enough to work that closely together, or maybe it simply takes a lot of people channeling together to create powerful angreal and Sa'angreal and there aren't enough Forsaken to do it.

Dramlfian

[DemandredFO]

Some of the forsaken may know how to make all the 'greal stuff but I think for one reason or another they take cooperation to make and the forsaken don't do so well at that.

[Jarraad]

On the subject of callandor, it does NOT take women and men to make it.  The duologue we saw was when they were sealing callandor in the stone of tear, THAT required both sexes.  Honestly, it comes to simple logic, why would something that has to completely deal with the male (or female depending on your persepective) side of the power even need the opposite sex to make?  And in relation to the forsaken, they do not have all the knowledge of the AoL.  We even see this in how many weaves that Moghedien did not know how to do, but only knew base properties of the weave.

[Valinthros]

Point made above:

 

Elayne notes that no one can duplicate what she does making Ter'angreal.  This distincly points to that ability in reality being a Talent.  It can then be surmised, through the forsaken's actions, that none have the talent for this.

 

Sometimes the simple solution is the right one.  ;)

[Asmo]

Well, it does seem like making them is a Talent. It was never stated that people in the AoL were making angreal left and right. And noone has actually crafted an angreal or sa'angreal, only ter'angreal, which the Forsaken may or may not know how to make. So making angreal may be a lot more difficult than Elayne assumes.

[DemandredFO]

I thought I read somewhere that angreal needed the opposite sex to make maybe I am misremimbering but I don't think so.  As to the Siadar making saidin related objects full healing requires the opposite sex.

[RAND AL THOR]

Saidar and saidin were used together for most greater purposes in the AoL because it was more effective so. But it is not essential.

 

Furthermore, I think that it is quite probable that the creation of angreal requires a person to be naturally Talented. However, Elayne being the only one after 3000 years seems strange???

 

Also, Aviendha seems to have a talent for recognizing the purpose of a ter'angreal simply by holding it. And Egwene is a dreamer. So many talents are suddenly surfacing now. It is odd that none have had these abilities for a very long time (exception Coriannin). Surely in 3000 years SOMEBODY would have had the talent for making angreal?

 

Furthermore, the Choden Kal were surely made with a very large number of Aes Sedai. So, did all these Aes Sedai have the 'Talent' for making sa'angreal? If so, then why is the number so low now?

 

If we had asked RJ, he would have said 'The Pattern provided what is needed.' This is, in my opinion, RJ's most tremendously wonderful idea. By incorporating the Pattern as something that tries to balance the world while it is weaving, he has managed to pass of an aweful number of coincidental events as 'work of the pattern.' While it is acceptable, it gets a little annoying at times. Too many coincidences are being passed off as work of the pattern.

[balefireruinssteaks]

well you have to think about people in this Age.  Nyneave discovered a way to Heal stilling because she stubbornly studied it when everyone else insisted it could not be Healed.  So perhaps someone else would have discovered a way to Heal it if they had actually taken the time to think it through.  Nyneave is brilliant in her own ways, but there are Aes Sedai who could have worked it through I think if they had really sat down and looked at the problem.

 

The same for other Talents.  How many Aes Sedai over 3,000 years could make ter'angreal but never knew it because everyone just assumed no one could make them?  So there could have been quite a few Talents floating about that no one knew about because they just assumed no one did those things anymore.

[Lille]

Saidar and saidin were used together for most greater purposes in the AoL because it was more effective so. But it is not essential.

 

Furthermore, I think that it is quite probable that the creation of angreal requires a person to be naturally Talented. However, Elayne being the only one after 3000 years seems strange???

 

Also, Aviendha seems to have a talent for recognizing the purpose of a ter'angreal simply by holding it. And Egwene is a dreamer. So many talents are suddenly surfacing now. It is odd that none have had these abilities for a very long time (exception Coriannin). Surely in 3000 years SOMEBODY would have had the talent for making angreal?

 

Furthermore, the Choden Kal were surely made with a very large number of Aes Sedai. So, did all these Aes Sedai have the 'Talent' for making sa'angreal? If so, then why is the number so low now?

 

If we had asked RJ, he would have said 'The Pattern provided what is needed.' This is, in my opinion, RJ's most tremendously wonderful idea. By incorporating the Pattern as something that tries to balance the world while it is weaving, he has managed to pass of an aweful number of coincidental events as 'work of the pattern.' While it is acceptable, it gets a little annoying at times. Too many coincidences are being passed off as work of the pattern.

 

Elayne is probably not the only one, but of the 1% of the population that can learn to channel, how many of those actually do? There are less than a thousand Aes Sedai, i have no idea how many Windfinders and Wise Ones there are but none of those studies ter'angreal or angreal. So the chances are high that those who have had the talent to make ter'angreal never got the training necessary to channel and thus never got the chance to study angreal and ter'angreal.

 

And for the Choedan Kal, it was probably only those who directed the flows in the circles who had the talent for making them. The others dont need it, do they?

[RAND AL THOR]

Logical answers, Lille. But why all the sudden burst in discoveries etc at this particular moment? (PLEASE don't say : The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills) :D :D

[Lille]

Logical answers, Lille. But why all the sudden burst in discoveries etc at this particular moment? (PLEASE don't say : The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills) :D :D

 

Pure luck? :P

[RAND AL THOR]

Logical answers, Lille. But why all the sudden burst in discoveries etc at this particular moment? (PLEASE don't say : The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills) :D :D

 

Pure luck? :P

 

That is practically the point of ta'veren. Another ingenious idea of RJ's.

[Asmo]

As was mentioned, a lot of people may have a particular Talent, but for some reason or another, they may never learn to channel and exploit it, or even if they actually do due to certain circumstances they may not be able to practice it, thus never learning that they can do it. If Elayne hadn't found the stash in Ebou Dar, she probably would never have realized she was able to duplicate ter'angreal. If Egwene had not met Amys, she probably would never have realized she was a Dreamer. If Nynaeve had not found herself in an environment that allowed her to practice un-stilling a gentled man, she probably would never have found out how to Heal Stilling. It's a matter of circumstances more than simply innate talent. Circumstances also existed in the Age of Legends, which is why they didn't do a lot of things they do now.

 

As for creating a powerful sa'angreal like the Choeden Kal, it probably would need a circle, but only the leader of the circle would have to actually know how to make a sa'angreal.

[Dramalfian]

Maybe only the person in control of the link needs to have the inborn talent in order to create the more powerful Angreal and Sa-angreal.

[Luckers]

Logical answers, Lille. But why all the sudden burst in discoveries etc at this particular moment? (PLEASE don't say : The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills) 

 

A couple of things--firstly it has gone completely forgotten--we know the knowledge existed in Seanchan, its rare, and damane who manifest it are pampered because of it, but its still there. It's just damane wouldn't have the ingenuity to experiment with the ability, thus it remained limited to the a'dam.

 

Beyond that circumstance has alot to do with it. The a'dam is apparently a very simply form of ter'angreal, and no Aes Sedai has been exposed to them before, only ever encountering the more complex remenants of the Age of Legends. Even Elayne didn't figure it out from those.

 

Then there is education. The Aes Sedai indoctrination is fairly closed about new discoveries. My guess is it has something to do with the awe it instils in its initiates. They revere the Tower, and Aes Sedai--so much so that it becomes hard to even contemplate learning or doing something that Aes Sedai can't. By the time they reach the shawl these beliefs are ingrained so they don't push the boundaries too hard. Elayne like the others were never properly indoctrinated.

[oosquaiaddict]

Isnt Faolain also making some sort of Ter'angreal? I cant remember if it was book 5 or 6 but when she has to watch Elayne shes pissed at not being able to spend time working on her own project.

 

 

 

 

[Luckers]

Not ter'angreal. Faolain states that she is annoyed to be watching them because she is working on her own projects which she suspects will rival anything they are working on. It's never stated to specfically be ter'angreal.

 

Though, that being said there are some Aes Sedai who show some facility with the weave.

[aevogt]

I thought I read somewhere that angreal needed the opposite sex to make maybe I am misremimbering but I don't think so.  As to the Siadar making saidin related objects full healing requires the opposite sex.

 

You're thinking about a thread I started a few months ago.

 

My theory was, and it's only a theory, it's got some holes, is that only a woman can make an angreal attuned to a man and vice versa.  Since no female chosen trusts any of her male counterparts in the slightest, she would never make an angreal for one of them.  

 

If this were true, one would think that the truce between Mesaana, an AoL teacher who would almost have had to know at least the rudimentary basics of angreal manufacture, (in the same way your history teacher knows algebra) and Demandred, would have allowed them to work together for something this important.

 

The more likely scenario is that it takes sophisticated processes to create one.  In the same way you're not going to make a microchip in your garage, your can't make an angrea in a tent.  This is not supported by the making of cuendillar and terangreal, but maybe it's because they're different.

 

Which makes me think.  What if making a powerful angreal is axactly what Demandred has been up to, off screen as it were, for the last couple of books and is now armed to the f-ing teeth.

 

That'd be an unpleasant surprise at TG.

 

 

 

[Luckers]

Well the creation of angreal is likely also a talent, which the forsaken may not have.

 

I've always ascribed to the cross gender creation of angreal myself. It makes sense as saidar would obviously be the only thing able to create a vesel capable of holding saidin, and vice verse. Furthermore it explains the distinction between angreal and sa'angreal. Sa'angreal being the result of a cross gendered link. Thus some element of the same power is involved, weakening the buffering that contains the power--thats why when sa'angreal get too powerful they lack a protective buffer, like Callandor, and why the Choedan Kal and their Access Keys were such a breakthrough.

[Majsju]

Something to keep in mind is that "All the forsaken have all the knowledge of the AOL" is fundamentally flawed. The more advanced a society gets, the more specialised its citizen becomes. The chance that any of the forsaken had reason to learn the procedure of creating angreal is quite slim, to say the least. The only one that seems like a small possibility is Lanfear, since we know she did some research regarding the OP, though quite far from making angreal.

[42Bonzo88]

    Alot of people have brought up the subject that the Talent of making Ter'angreal may have been there and not used. I agree with this fully, after so many Aes Sedai being burned out from experimenting or getting killed outright. Elayne, didn't get all of the formal training, Aviendah, wasn't trained at all, so didn't know of the risks, Nynaeve being so stubborn, she would have figured out the new Healing in a jail cell surrounded by Warders who had instructions to kill her if she tried!