Questions Coming Up During a Re-Read (Up to TSR) New Q's

[Lille]

I can't see how Moridins description to Traveling with the True Power is a contradiction to how it looks. He is talking about what he DOES, not how it looks. Just like Rand says he is drilling a hole between the threads of the pattern or something like that, and his traveling gateways looks the same as the Aes Sedais, and they dont drill a hole, they simply make the two places exactly the same.

 

One is a description of how it is done, the other how it looks.

[aevogt]

I just want to point out two things on the issue of True Power traveling.

 

The Ishmael (TEoTW) description is of returning to the pattern (the shimmering and apparent materialization) and the Moridin description, (aCoS)(ripping a hole and stepping outside the pattern). 

 

There is no description of what Moridin looked like as he stepped out.  Quite possibly he shimmered into nothing and that description was left or edited out.

 

If you think about it, someone stepping into the pattern, (returning) would appear to coalesce as their body was integrated into the pattern where they traveled to.

 

More importantly.

 

Where the traveling a male OP user actually forces two different places in the pattern to move (Rand's description), the TP traveling changes users relationship to the pattern, more like a woman's traveling does with two different places.(Egwene's description)

 

Since the TP does not have two halves, it follows that TP Traveling would resemble a combination of both methods of OP Traveling, but also be different from either.

 

 

[balefireruinssteaks]

What Min witnessed, however, cannot be argued

 

Min cannot channel, so to her eyes she would not have been able to see the weaves for Folded Light.  To her, Lanfear simply vanished.  One moment she was there, the next she wasn't. 

 

For Egwene it might have been trickier, but Lanfear i'm sure has enough knowledge on how to effectively create Folded Light (obviously a Talent with a Capital letter, perhaps one Lanfear is skilled in) and could seemingly vanish even in front of Egwene, who was not nearly as trained as she is nowadays.

[Harmless Bandit]

The thing is, from Moridin's very brief description, he steps outside the Pattern (to where, by the way?). Just speculating, but it would follow then that he would step back into the Pattern. Unless it's not literal, there is the motion of actual, physical stepping wherever it is he did strongly implied. Now, I don't know what a person coming back into the Pattern looks like; but the coalescing or solidifying bit sounds quite different.

 

[MystErikEry]

Where is the quote that says Folded Light will cause a rippling even if it's being attached to an unmoving object?

 

Besides, I think it's very possible for Lanfear to have used too little of the power to be truly noticed... even at such close proximity.

 

And anyway, I was more hoping for an actual quote of Lanfear's disappearing act, as I don't have the physical books with me at the moment, but perhaps I'll try to check it out from the library.  Which book exactly is this scene in? :) It's important to examine it exactly as it is.

 

Especially considering the fact that Egwene wasn't looking at Lanfear at the time....

 

(And I apologize for using "inverted weaving" instead of "reversing the weave" .... both seem extremely the same to me, so I mix them up.  One is hiding a weave after weaving it, and the other is hiding it while/before weaving it, so it just seems that an inverted weave is just being slow or bad at reversing weaves :P )

[Graendals favourite]

A few things, though I've mainly been perplexed about Rand skimming at the Eye, but a few things here that I can say already also on other things. The way the first books have references like this makes me think there's a grand scheme to be found there, and I've just noticed I don't know the half of it.

 

On the Eye, it does not seem by what is written that Rand channelled a Gateway, however of course he did not know what he was doing so he might have done it unknowingly. Rand did not channel and know what he was doing really before Asmodean, after all. Anyway, one possibility is that being in the Eye is to some extent being in Tel'aran'rhiod, I must think it is possible to Skim there too. Perhaps the need to find Ishamael, wherever he was in that Tel'aran'rhiod dictated he use Skimming. In a similar way he later found Asmodean, after all, that is what he used it for. He actually saw him in the Skimming space, and that is generally impossible in Skimming. We know that if to people make a gateway from one place to another, unless they are exactly the same spots the gateways are made in, they will not see each other. Suppose the Pattern might have had a hand in it too, but it is not impossible to think you could skim to a certain thread in the Pattern. This explanation allows for Rand to end up back at the cliff when the Eye ran out of power.

 

 

The other issue was invisibility. First off I'll point out that Folded Light may not be all. I cannot yet remember everything that has been said on Folded Light, it is not only the first five books but all those after you have to remember. However, in my opinion invisibility is possible and different from folded light.

 

Firstly, you can disguise yourself generally at will. The disguise does not ripple when you move. There's countless examples of this, from Semirhage and Mesaana's more elaborate disguises to that of for example Moghedien's. I cannot see any reason why invisibility is different.

 

Secondly, there is a difference between channelling to hide something else and hiding yourself. You do not move in relation to yourself. Physically, either, I cannot see why the ripples should be anything other than lack of skill, and bad technique.

 

Then on into the books, the Aes Sedai speak about the ripples, but you'll remember that they do not know everything. I also remember one of those who spoke of it speculating that someone will figure out how to get rid of the ripples. The Forsaken will know it if it is possible, they are a completely different matter. LTT too, for one Rand was surprised that Egwene rippled, did he not do it correctly?

 

Ok the quotes:

the Great Hunt:

Selene used whatever it is already earlier, for instance as in that little town where Uno saw her, and when she, Rand and Loial hid from the Illuminators. The main quote near the end goes:

"Lews Therin was and is mine, girl. Tend him well for me until I come for him." And she was gone.

Min gaped. One moment she was there, then she was gone. Min discovered she was hugging Rand's unconscious form tightly. She wished she did not feel as if she wanted him to protect her.

The Dragon Reborn:

In Questions:

So strong was the command in her voice that Egwene turned and was three steps up the ramp before she realised what she was doing. Bristling, she spun back. Aes Sedai or no, I--

The gallery was empty.

Frowning, she dismissed the nearest doors-- no one lived in those rooms, except possibly mice-- and ran down the ramp, peered both ways, followed the curve of the gallery with her eyes all the way around. She even peered over the rail, down into the small Garden of the Accepted, and studied the other galleries, higher as well as lower. She was two Accepted in their banded dresses, one Faolain and the other a woman she knew by sight if not name. But there was no woman in silver and white anywhere.

 

In my opinion the thought that Lanfear would have tried to rush into a storage is ridiculous, and furthermore practically impossible in those three steps of Egwene.

 

Other than that, first off Egwene is still a very new Accepted, new to the Power despite her training as damane. She has barely learned to see the glow around a channeller, or was that later, she cannot recognise a channeller. Feeling Lanfear channel would be unlikely. Perhaps Lanfear does not fear the Accepted too much. And really, neither did her disguise as Else ripple when moving.

 

I think it is just a matter of technique, if you fry an omelette on only one side what you get is not one done on both sides.

[Kadere]

The ACoS quote appears to be almost identical to the PoD quote as in neither of them show us what it looks like, only what happens. How he steps out of the Pattern, or rips of the Pattern, is not the issue as mucha as what that action looks like.

 

If you can explain to me, using Folded Light, how he goes from Lews Therin's house to the island later known as Tar Valon, WITHOUT traveling as the book STRONGLY implies, then we might be able to discuss this further. As your theory apparentlly doesn't answer this or how he got to Lews Therin's living room, the only conclusion we can draw is that the quotes and encycolpedia-wot are accurate. He used Traveling with the True Power, he stepped outside of the Pattern, and then back in, ripping a hole, and this action looks as it does in EotW.

 

The idea that RJ later changed what traveling with the True Power looks like is frankly ridiculous. The first scenes RJ ever even imagined were the very last scene and the very first scene. He spent 5 years writing notes and coming up with everything from how the One Power worked, to how the True Power worked, to the history of the Aiel, to how the politics in the White Tower work. The idea that he published a book saying one thing, and then either forgot about that, or didn't add it to his giant collection of notes on EVERYTHING in the world of WoT, and then decided to change it to a different idea figuring his fans wouldn't notice is ludicrious. Most of the problems you site are based on what one character thinks is true when it isn't because they're information is inaccurate.

 

Folded Light does not make a person travel, neither the ACoS quote nor the PoD quote says what the action looks like, RJ would not have made such a dramatic change to the way the basics of the True Power worked, the quotes say so, encycolpedia-wot says so, and under the simpilist scrutiny your theory shows no back bone. Ishamael traveled to both locations with the True Power and that act looks like air shimmering and coelising.

[Luckers]

I can't see how Moridins description to Traveling with the True Power is a contradiction to how it looks. He is talking about what he DOES, not how it looks. Just like Rand says he is drilling a hole between the threads of the pattern or something like that, and his traveling gateways looks the same as the Aes Sedais, and they dont drill a hole, they simply make the two places exactly the same.

 

One is a description of how it is done, the other how it looks.

 

Except thats not really accurate is it. Moridin describes his method of traveling, but also the reality of it. He steps through the hole he's caused--steps.

 

In the prologue he ripples into existence. However you want to play the distinction between look and effect, rippling into existence doesn't provide for stepping through a hole.

 

Min cannot channel, so to her eyes she would not have been able to see the weaves for Folded Light.  To her, Lanfear simply vanished.  One moment she was there, the next she wasn't. 

 

Yes, exactly. Lanfear vanished. She did not ripple, she vanished. One moment she was there, the next she wasn't. Min doesn't need to see the flows to see the effects--and the effects do not match Folded Light.

 

For Egwene it might have been trickier, but Lanfear i'm sure has enough knowledge on how to effectively create Folded Light (obviously a Talent with a Capital letter, perhaps one Lanfear is skilled in) and could seemingly vanish even in front of Egwene, who was not nearly as trained as she is nowadays.

 

Umm... firstly no such thing was required with Egwene. She was not watching when Lanfear disapeared, thus no especial talent in folding light is nessasary--though again, she should have sensed it. There is no knowledge or skill that Lanfear could have had that would have stopped the sensation of active channeling, and Egwene should have sensed it.

 

Where is the quote that says Folded Light will cause a rippling even if it's being attached to an unmoving object?

 

Umm... no where. It doesn't ripple when attached to an object that isn't moving. Of course when bending the light to begin with, it would, but once woven if the object remains still than of course it wouldn't ripple.

 

Firstly, you can disguise yourself generally at will. The disguise does not ripple when you move. There's countless examples of this, from Semirhage and Mesaana's more elaborate disguises to that of for example Moghedien's. I cannot see any reason why invisibility is different.

 

Well, it does fail if its elaborate, and to completely recreate the realities that are behind you constantly from all different perspectives including depth whilst moving seems as complex as it comes. Indeed, by far more complex than changing colour of one surface, such as skin.

 

Secondly, there is a difference between channelling to hide something else and hiding yourself. You do not move in relation to yourself. Physically, either, I cannot see why the ripples should be anything other than lack of skill, and bad technique.

 

Not so, as Elayne's PoV in LoC proves.

 

Then on into the books, the Aes Sedai speak about the ripples, but you'll remember that they do not know everything. I also remember one of those who spoke of it speculating that someone will figure out how to get rid of the ripples. The Forsaken will know it if it is possible, they are a completely different matter. LTT too, for one Rand was surprised that Egwene rippled, did he not do it correctly?

 

It was a skill learnt from the Forsaken, and the comment about someone fixing the ripple is Aes Sedai arrogance. Janya thought she was speaking of an imperfect discovery of an Aceepted, and Janya is by nature flighty. It was a fluff comment.

 

And Rand was not surprised that it rippled, he was angry with LTT (his source) that it rippled. "It seems to ripple if you move, damn him". He did it correctly, and he was annoyed that despite that it still was imperfect.

 

The ACoS quote appears to be almost identical to the PoD quote as in neither of them show us what it looks like, only what happens. How he steps out of the Pattern, or rips of the Pattern, is not the issue as mucha as what that action looks like.

 

He tears a hole and steps, sorry buddy. Descriptions pretty clear.

 

If you can explain to me, using Folded Light, how he goes from Lews Therin's house to the island later known as Tar Valon, WITHOUT traveling as the book STRONGLY implies, then we might be able to discuss this further. As your theory apparentlly doesn't answer this or how he got to Lews Therin's living room, the only conclusion we can draw is that the quotes and encycolpedia-wot are accurate. He used Traveling with the True Power, he stepped outside of the Pattern, and then back in, ripping a hole, and this action looks as it does in EotW.

 

Why on earth would i do that. I don't hold to the idea that Folded Light is the answer to this problem.

 

And its not my theory--i disagree quite heartily with it, and have stated as such.

 

The idea that RJ later changed what traveling with the True Power looks like is frankly ridiculous.

 

You mean like how its rediculous that he changed the nature of all those other aspects of channeling that i raised above?

 

Folded Light does not make a person travel, neither the ACoS quote nor the PoD quote says what the action looks like, RJ would not have made such a dramatic change to the way the basics of the True Power worked, the quotes say so, encycolpedia-wot says so, and under the simpilist scrutiny your theory shows no back bone. Ishamael traveled to both locations with the True Power and that act looks like air shimmering and coelising.

 

Again with 'my theory'. Champ, get's some glasses, this is getting offensive. Folded Light does not make a person travel. RJ would and did make such changes so i dont see the basis of that comment. The quotes directly decry your position, so that comment too seems void. Encyclopaedia Wot is an excellent source, but hardly gospel. Lord knows i remember the creation of that cite. And under the simplest scrutiny thats NOT MY THEORY!

 

Ishamael travelled to both places, but not from the True Power. Air shimmering and coalescing is not a function of the True Power Travelling.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Heres something thats been bothering me, which I forgot about until recently.

 

I seem to remember Rand noting that when a male channeller holds Saidin, there is a feeling of menace in the air, as if danger is approaching. Rand notes this only once that I can think of though, not long after he starts recruiting men to channel. Yet he doesnt ever note that again until one time he visits Taim. I remember it reads something like "He could not see the flows Dashiva had woven, but there was a menacing feeling in the air, as if danger was imminent." And a few moments later that feeling grew stronger, as if Rand was almost expecting something to hit him in the back.

 

Ive only ever seen this mentioned twice in the whole series that i can remember, yet Im sure rand said it was something that could be felt when a man was channeling, like a womans glowing aura.

 

My question is, is this just that-something like a womans glowing aura, or is it a particular weave? Or am I losing the plot?

[Jonn]

I think something that needs to be said is that there's always more than one way to do something.

For example you can get from point A to point B faster via GATEWAY, SKIMMING, TAR in the flesh travel, PORTAL STONE, THE WAYS and I would assume True Power wielding.

 

I never questioned RJ's description of the True Power being fundamentally different than the One Power. That's just plain fact.

 

In fact in the Eye of the World Prologue Ishamael all but admits that he is using the True Power.

In it he heals Lews Therin of his madness from the taint, something that isn't casually done mind you, else the AOL Aes Sedai would have done it, right? Anyhow, Ishamael says something to the effect of: This Healing is different from what your 'sisters' would do...

 

Clearly implying the True Power, either that or he invented a new way of Healing taint madness with saidin in his spare time. RJ wasn't about to reveal the True Power in detail in the first novel of the series. The One Power needed to have its proper prominence before you introduce something like the True Power.

 

In any case, Lews Therin "traveled" to what would be Dragonmount. Ishamael did something different. It's right there in the description.

 

Also note that at the Tarwin's Gap when Rand just appeared, he was handling a massive amount of saidin. I find it unlikely that he had moved the Green Man's Garden, because it always appears in the Blight. Tarwin's Gap is not the Blight. It's also unlikely to me that Rand had moved the Garden to the Gap, stepped out and never noticed. You have to physically step out of the boundaries of the Garden to leave it. Rand just appeared. The other thing that makes it unlikely to me that he moved the Garden is the fact that when he finished his encounter with Ishamael he ended up back in the Garden and later when the party left, the Garden was still in the Blight (they all had to trek back through the Blight and Malkier back to Shienar). So for Rand to have moved the Garden, he would have had to have moved it first out of the Blight (unlikely), then moved it back into the Blight, stepping into and out of the Garden each time he did so.

 

While it is possible, I find it simpler to assume that he somehow moved himself, rather than the Garden, from place to place.

 

I do suppose the argument could be made that the Garden itself is an example of instant traveling, but the semantics involved in that one, I'm just not interested in going into at the moment.

 

 

[bRANDan]

I seem to remember Rand noting that when a male channeller holds Saidin, there is a feeling of menace in the air, as if danger is approaching.

 

That was a weave that Dashiva made, specifically meant to make themselves menacing to others, AS in particular. Men can feel other men channelling just as women do. Men can only tell when another man is holding the Power when they are closer together, women can sense it from farther off.

 

While it is possible, I find it simpler to assume that he somehow moved himself, rather than the Garden, from place to place.

 

AS do I. The only time we see this instantaneous travel are those unexplained cases and the Portal Stones. I remember it being said that the Portal Stones require alot of Power to use, much more then Travelling it would seem. Rand had an enormous amount of the Power in him then, and from what we've seen when he has more Power in him weaves that LTT used seem to come easier to him, he seems to use these weaves on instinct then. The only people we've seen use this weave have been very powerful or very powerful at the time; Lanfear, Ishy, early Rand when drawing from the Eye. I think the best answer is that he did some kind of Portal Stone travelling.

 

Also, when Ishy Travels in the EotW he shimmers and coalesces, do we see this at any of the other instances? I am not sure but I don't think we do. Could it be that this is simply caused by the fact that he's loosely trapped in the Prison. In tGH Fain tells them that Ba'alzy would appear shimmering then reappear somewhere else. Seems kind of like the same thing to me. Could be that he travelled to LTT with the Portal Stone weave and the shimmering and coalescing had more to do with him being 'incomplete' and travelling as he did. Maybe when you are trapped in the Prison, however loosely, it isn't just a matter of travelling and arriving somewhere, maybe it draws out the displacement change, so that what would have occurred instantly now takes a few second. It just seems that from what we see because Ishy was partly bound his form in this world was unstable, sometimes more stable, other times less stable. But then again, I think the only time we get a POV of someone who actually sees someone arrive with either the unexplained travelling cases or the Portal Stones was LTT in the EotW Prologue, so it could be that the shimmering and coalescing do occur when using Portal Stones or the unexplained way of travelling.

 

You mean like how its rediculous that he changed the nature of all those other aspects of channeling that i raised above?

 

I do not think that RJ changed this particular aspect. Just for the simple fact that Rand travells in this odd fashion to Tarwin's Gap and then immmediately after Skims to Ishy's hideout. I think it's more like flying, We've seen Ishy do it at the end of tDR, but as of yet no one else has done it nor has it been explained.

[MystErikEry]

Why should the inital folding of Folded Light cause a ripple?

 

It could just bend the light all at once, making someone just disappear.

 

(The "ripple" effect is caused by imperfect bendings around the edges, as the weave moves, whereas if it was fixed in place it wouldn't ripple at all, not even to start with, as far as I can see without a direct quote from the book)

 

Also, I'll note that Rand had specified that using folded light used a miniscule amount of the Power, such that nobody would be able to sense him channeling unless they were pretty much right on top of him.  Thus, it's unlikely Egwene would have felt it.

 

Can I get a chapter and page number for the scene with Lanfear, perhaps?  I kind of prefer direct references from the book, if possible, though it is hard for myself to get them (though I'll pull them out by request).

[Guest Dreadlord]

Egwene wouldnt have felt it anyway. Women cant sense a man channeling

[MystErikEry]

The "it" in that sentence was referring to Lanfear's weaving of Folded Light, not Rand's (obviously, since she wasn't anywhere near Rand at that time :P or near when Rand was weaving Folded Light, either).

[Graendals favourite]

Jonn, no Tarwin's Gap is in the Blight. Look at the map of Shienar in the Eye of the World, for example, the Blight does not start all that far north from Fal Dara.

 

I tell you and brandan, ending up back at the cliff is significant. It happened to Rand also when Ishamael had died, he and Ishamael (both!) ended up back at the real world Stone. But for me this is a long and complicated matter, for reference here is my sketch on the matter, this is part of one of my larger theories. I see a way to add bubbles of evil in that too, they are to be the Dark One momentarily intentionally grasping at a certain part of the pattern, and not so much chance as Moiraine thought. But I must work at it more still, I can't say anything yet.

 

I'll return to the invisibility too, need to get a grip on the relevant quotes etc, however in my opinion Egwene had been novice a year and a few months a damane, so her sense of channelling was not developed (have to find references to whether Egwene actually sensed anyone channelling those days in the Tower, indeed she didn't feel Lanfear's weave of compulsion), the Aes Sedai too learned inversion but don't know reversion exists. On LTT, I read the quote implying Rand thought there shouldn't be any ripples.

[Jonn]

Tarwin's Gap lies past where Malkier used to be, so you're right, it's in the blight, but it's not in the real Blight, where Lan lead the group, away from the gap. With all of the trees stirring and those things attacking them, and the giant worms. That's what I mean. big difference between one and the other.

 

In any case Rand would have to have moved the Garden from where they entered near the mountains of Dhoom (I don't really know why it needs that "h" in there) west past the great lakes of Malkier, many miles east to the Gap, and then back to the same spot. They passed the lakes and the ruins they went through on the way north to get back to Fal Dara.

 

Rand had just wrestled the Eye's vast reserve of clean saidin away from Aginor. he was thinking that he needed to get away, and he needed to do it fast. He burned Aginor to a crisp in the process, but he was thinking Away! as he channeled. So whatever it was that he did, he was channeling to do it.

 

It's much simpler to move yourself away to a place and to come back than it is to move the entire Garden then move it back. It just makes more sense.

Whatever he  did, he cannot duplicate it so it must be something really hard to do which takes a massive amount of saidin.

 

[Luckers]

Heres something thats been bothering me, which I forgot about until recently.

 

I seem to remember Rand noting that when a male channeller holds Saidin, there is a feeling of menace in the air, as if danger is approaching. Rand notes this only once that I can think of though, not long after he starts recruiting men to channel. Yet he doesnt ever note that again until one time he visits Taim. I remember it reads something like "He could not see the flows Dashiva had woven, but there was a menacing feeling in the air, as if danger was imminent." And a few moments later that feeling grew stronger, as if Rand was almost expecting something to hit him in the back.

 

Unless i miss my guess you are referring to the scene where Rand confronts Cadsuane... Dashiva weaves a web that specifically causes a feeling of menace. I cannot think of any other time where Rand senses a feeling of menace from another man holding the source in that way.

 

Why should the inital folding of Folded Light cause a ripple?

 

It's quite simple, the ripple has to be caused by the nature of the inexact bending of the light when moving--as one is moving, the light has to be bent in new ways to accomadate the angle and dimensions of the enviroment. It has to be that as if it were something else then the ripple would be constant--there, even if not moving. As such the initial bending would similarily cause the ripple.

 

Also, I'll note that Rand had specified that using folded light used a miniscule amount of the Power, such that nobody would be able to sense him channeling unless they were pretty much right on top of him.  Thus, it's unlikely Egwene would have felt it.

 

Not so. Egwene is strong, and stood within steps of Lanfear. No matter how weak the web, she would have sensed it. Now its possible she didn't pick up on the sensation--we've seen it before, and Egwene was pretty inexperienced... but in all truth she should have sensed it, especially given how suspicious she was.