ishamael and the other forsaken??

[who cares?]

Has anyone else noticed that Ishamael differs from the other forsaken in the sense that he has been living longer? I havent seen any other forsaken claiming they have fought this battle a billion times...

Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but I couldn't help wondering about the implications this has about Ishamael's identity (is he perhaps the "great lord" to be born again?)

[Jellybelly]

First of all, the Dark One is not human. So Ishamael is definitely not going to be the Dark One in another life. He is not a dark sorcerer like or something like that, he is more a malevolent force.

 

And in the extension of that, Ishamael has not really lived that much longer than other the Forsaken. He has merely gained the insight to know that his soul and Lews Therin's have struggled countless times over the turnings of the Wheel.

[HighLordXanthus]

I thought that possibly Ishy's madness was tied directly to his prolonged us of the TP of the DO. We know that the Taint on saidin causes some to hear voices, voices atleast in Rand's case of a previous incarnation. What if that much use of the TP with it's own costs affect similarly, and weakened within Ishy's mind all or much of his past experiences so he is now similar to Birgitte who know all her past lives. That could answer where Ishy got this knowledge. Saying that he and the dragon had always been through every turning of the wheel on opposite sides.

 

Or he is simply a mad philosopher.

[Luckers]

Whilst he is a bit unstable, that may result from his three thousand years of active life, or overuse of the TP, as you said--in either case though, it doesn't mean his deductions are 'mad'. By all accounts Ishy was a brilliant philosopher, and by all indications his suspicions seem to be correct.

[HighLordXanthus]

Exactly, I was just trying to rationalize WHERE he got the goods. Granted, it could simply have been told to Ishy by the DO

[Bob T Dwarf]

Or, it could be pure hokum. Ishy also claims that he always wins.

[Luckers]

This doesn't have the feel of 'hokum'. The way RJ has expressed this idea suggests that it is the truth.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I probably misstated it when I said "pure hokum". Mostly hokum is more like it.

 

The most believable lies all contain an element of truth. They all base off of things "that everybody knows".

 

In Randland, "everybody knows" that life and time are circular. You're born, live, and die, over and over again. So, when Baalzy says he and LTT have fought many times, he could be telling the truth. If A is true, B must be true as well. Right?

 

Not necessarily. A's truth has no bearing on B unless there is a clear chain of evidence linking B to A. The only "evidence" we have is Baalzy's unsupported word that his soul and LTT's soul had ever even met before the AoL.

[Jellybelly]

Here we go again. What on earth could Ishamael hope to gain by lying about that? He may be Forsaken, but that does not make him a compulsive liar.

[rd2000]

It gives him the advantage of Rand thinking he won't win. Quite an advantage if your opponent doesn't have a hope of winning.

[bcxanth]

Yep. It's psychological warfare, which can be a very effective weapon. Especially against an opponent that is already unsure of themselves like Rand is in the early books when Ishy tells him those things.

[Jellybelly]

Well, that really is not the point, is it? And as far as I am concerned, all that did was solidify Rand in his opposition against Ishamael. Remember, Ishamael was trying to convert Rand to his cause at that stage.

 

The point is, why doubt everything like Bob does? The statement makes perfect sense, and ties into the theme that Time is cyclical and how the Pattern of a turning will be similar but not identical to the Pattern of the previous turning, like RJ described it to us. We know that the Dragon's soul fights the Dark One with every turning of the wheel. We know that Ishamael is the one who is truly dedicated to the Dark One. We know of his actions in the Age of Legends. Why, then, is it such a prime example of "psychological warfare" that Ishamael tells Rand that they have been opposed a thousand times a thousand. If the Creator has a champion, then why not the Dark One? And in addition, the narrative implications of this are interesting. It seems like a needless lie.

 

Did Ishamael lie? No way in hell says I. For reference, note his comment after LTT nukes himself. "It is not done between us, Dragon. It will not be done until the end of time." Ishamael knew that the struggle had been going on forever.

 

Why debate this? It is splitting hairs.

[Blade]

Ishy was a philosopher as was already stated above, therefore he can believe that his soul has fought countless times before against lews therin, and the way he's been lately, he's very likely to believe that is true even if it isn't. He doesn't have the proof for it, but all of his philosophical reasoning says that it is so.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Plus, it's a really good ploy against a young, inexperienced opponent.

 

Try to make him doubt his cause. Try to make him doubt himself. Then offer him a way out that promises fame and glory.

 

The fact that this tactic only firms Rand's resolve to oppose the Dark proves one of two things:

 

Either Baalzamon has no clue how to really influence and motivate people to his cause, or he really wants Rand to fight... probably so he ( Baalzy ) can have the glory of defeating him. Another case, as with all of the Forsaken, of a personal adjenda taking precedence over a greater strategic need.

 

No matter how bad things look, all the Light has to do to win is not act like the Dark.

[rd2000]

Well, Ishy's belief does fall inline with the paragraph that begins each book (The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass...)So I think that Ishy has HIS version of the truth that he believes...and was telling the truth as far as he knows when he taunted Lews/Rand. In his age, he could have deduced or had communication with the DO and figured out that a champion of the DO has faced a champion of the Light many times before. With his ego, he would have to be champion of the DO, and Lews was obviously champion of the Light. It seems to be a truth in Randland that people are reborn, or spun into the pattern over and over so it takes very little to deduce that the two most important people (the champions) would also be spun out over and over. Ergo....Ishy has himself been through many cycles and faced Lews/Rand many times/cycles.

[who cares?]

(....)With his (Ishamael's) ego' date=' he would have to be champion of the DO, and Lews was obviously champion of the Light. It seems to be a truth in Randland that people are reborn, or spun into the pattern over and over so it takes very little to deduce that the two most important people (the champions) would also be spun out over and over. Ergo....Ishy has himself been through many cycles and faced Lews/Rand many times/cycles.[/quote']

 

Exactly the point I was trying to make. I do believe Ishy has been around longer than the other forsaken. I don't have any proof, but than again I have no proof the other way around.

 

Let's just say for the sake of argument that Ishy IS destined to fight Rand. He's Nae'blis for now so he probably was everytime the wheel spun.... (or consider my first theory that he might be the dark one).

 

By the way, what makes you so sure that the dark one isn't human? I've read the series over and over again (like most of you :)) and I am really starting to see human trades in the dark one. Maybe he's not completely human but he's definately more human than the creator.....

[Jellybelly]

Granted, I am drunk right now, but you cannot possibly imply that the Dark One is or has at some point been a human being. That goes against all evidence in the books, as well as what RJ has told us.

 

The Dark One is the antithesis of the Creator, a power of his own. Not some damn sorcerer who got locked in a bloody hole. We are spoonfed this informations dozens of times during the reading of the books.

 

And another thing. How can you so untroubledly claim that Ishamael has been around longer than the other Forsaken? It is far more likely that all of the souls in circulation (or a lot of them, at least, depends on the number of people living in the world at a given time) have been around millions of times each. Ishamael has not lived in for millennia in his current, or rather, pre-Stone of Tear, incarnation. He has probably joined the Dark One's cause in every relevant life, that is, the lives where the Battle mattered, such as the Third age, but he has not lived for millions of years on end in the same incarnation.

 

In my opinion. There is always room for leeway in these novels, but I feel that logic does set some limits.

[Inara]

just throwing this into the mix

read a quote during a reread that suggests that the Dragon has never served the DO

 

"the Dragon Reborn! are we to kill him Great Lord? That from the sheineran, hand graping eargerly at his side where his sword would hang. "perhaps" Ba'alzamon said simply "and perhaps not. perhaps he can be turned to my use. sooner of later it will be so, in this age or another"

emphasis added.

this is from the prologue of the great hunt

 

what do you think?

[Jellybelly]

I definitely agree that the Dragon has never served the Dark One. Or, modifying that, certainly never in an age where the world hung in the balance, like the Third Age and the Age of Legends. If he had, the Dark One would already be free, right? All evidence suggest that the Dragon has always been the Dark One's enemy. RJ's question of "you seriously believe Ishamael?!" (which has now caused some people not to believe anything the Forsaken lets out of their mouths) also supports this notion.

[Gurney]

Well, this is kind of a stretch but something to think about. Maybe Ishamael had some other guy in his head just like Rand did. If what Ishamael said does happen to be true and his soul has fought LTT forever, maybe that soul took over Ishamael (something Rand seems to be afraid of happening to himself)?

[Luckers]

I don't find it all that strange the ishamael, as a philosopher, would have been able to realise the truth based on his interactions with the Dark One

[Trib4l]

And considering the DO seems to be pretty up front with his minions in regards to their involvement, I agree that he'd have told Ishy perhaps who he even was before, or what he'd done in a previous incarnation.

[who cares?]

to kinda quote another reply... Would you seriously consider believing the dark one even if you were Ishamael?

[Trib4l]

If you're nuts enough to follow him, likely they'll be nuts enough to believe him, too.

[Inara]

of course they believe him

the only reason they gave him their alleigance/souls was because he promised them power and immortality...

 

if you didnt believe him....why whould you do this?