Misunderstanding regarding "pillow friends."

[Luckers]

And I do respect that... never think i was trying to do anything but say that the whole friend-sex thing is something that has been endorsed in other cultures. :)

[BrainFireBob]

There is entirely too much pillow friend going on is WOT, if you ask me.To help themselves get through training in White tower, is a lame excuse for becoming homosexual. People just can't do this.They have to born homo to contemplate such acts, no matter how lonely one is.

 

Personaly I think,that kind of lonelyness isn't something you can overcome with mindless sex. When I say lonely, I mean emptyness of the heart and soul. You need some one to sustain you through some dreadful ordeal or difficult phase of your life.That some one has to be some one you love. In short, soul mate.

 

I myself is going through a difficult phase in my life and I am lonely, and I never for a second think any kind of sex can or will help me. I seek a soul mate, a woman I can love and be intimate with. And I detest homosexuality. Nothing against them, but I just don't like it. Make me want to vomit.

 

 

 

It's called "institutional homosexuality."

 

Remember, the novices are segregated, and put under extreme pressure for years with virtually no time off. Classes every day of the week, with perhaps a half-dozen days off a year.

[benr]

There have been many less inflamatory subjects discussed in these threads with much less civility.  Nicely done by all.

[MystErikEry]

Yeah, I very much respect anamul for not going off the deep end, here.

 

With myself being homosexual, and many of my friends being some kind of bisexual (it's so hard to classify people, in my opinion), I don't really understand some of what you're saying, anamul.  However, I do appreciate your discussion and discourse being done in a peaceful manner, so thank you :)

 

It's very much true, though, for people of the same gender to form strong and meaningful relationships that go deeper than simple Western friendship.  One of my friends and I have such a relationship, actually, though we now live far apart - but when we get together, we spend a good deal of time together.  Not with sex, but with other things.  We go out together, as friends do, but to us it's something more than just that.  And he's grown up in our Western society, too!  Heh.  My friends and I just seem to be the open-minded sort.  I suppose we attract each other.

 

I know you're not saying it doesn't happen... and I understand that you might feel repulsion.  :) I'm certainly not asking you to change how you personally think about personally doing any such thing.  Just as how I hope you don't expect me to seriously consider having a romantic relationship with a woman.  For me, it'd make me uncomfortable (though probably not as much as you in the reverse situation).  Just keep that in mind, here.

 

I know that the Japanese people, for an example, very much condoned a homosexual lifestyle with the Samurai and their apprentices, way back.  It was a little bit like a mentor-student relationship, and a little bit like a father-sun relationship, and a little bit of a friendship relationship, and a little bit of a sexual relationship.  It's kind of hard to define - they were indeed doing things that in today's Western society would be seen as indecent (an older person being with a younger, and of the same gender to boot) but in those days was entirely expected.  In fact, it was expected for the young men to eventually grow up and take on a new young lover of their own, and there was still the heterosexual relationship in their lives, too.  This is just how it was.

 

I'll also point out briefly that there are indeed many religions that either have nothing to say about homosexuality or in fact suggest it (as was pointed out with the "losing purity" idea earlier)... and many Christians as well will claim the Bible doesn't really have much to say about homosexuality as it exists today, either.  :)

 

Hopefully I'm not going way off topic here, or anything.  I'm just enjoying the discussion and, as I said, I'm very happy that we've all been discussing this calmly.

Though I haven't done it in this post, perhaps posting some links will help?  To back up any claims made, I mean.  That way, we won't get into a "It's this way" "No it's not" "Yes it is" argument, unless we find the sources disagreeable (which is sure to happen, but at least then we're examining the arguments) in which case we can find counter-sources :D

 

*shrugs*

 

Just thought to let everyone know a little bit more about me, too.  I just turned 23, I'm not currently in a relationship and I'm not really looking for anyone in particular right now (but want to look around, a little, since looking is fun).  I love video games (and games of all kinds: card, board, and so on) and instrumental music, and I'm a big fan of RJ's Wheel of Time series.  I'm currently listening to the Audio Books, and am surprised with how much I forgot --- and how much I forgot the order of!  Listening to the books is certainly different than just reading them.  By using the audiobooks, I am reading through the series longer than the books, which will bring me right back to the most recent book closer to when A Memory of Light is released.  That's my plan, anyway, but it's still going too fast!

 

My favorite character is Mat, mostly because I can have all kinds of interesting fantasies about him, but I'm a huge fan of Nynaeve and Egwene and Elayne and so on, and very much enjoy reading any sections with Aes Sedai and their plots.

My least favorite character is Perrin..... he is so completely obsessed with Faile, and for some reason takes ages to understand her at all... and Perrin's constant burning thoughts about Faile is distasteful to me... it never ends!  His sections of the book are so slow and boring, and seem to have almost no impact on the story, although there's some here and there.

 

My favorite scenes are Logain's Healing (which is an interesting point for me, because I had read the spoilers of it long before I began that book, since I was reading the WoT FAQ, and it was STILL extremely exciting for me) , Nynaeve's unblocking , Egwene's declaration of War , and the whole Cleansing thing (and the whole book that happened after that kept pointing back to that striking major usage of the Power).

[anamul]

We were not actually talking about people who are born homosexual. I was talking about people who are not homosexual, but turn into one as in WOT.(in WOT, surprisingly,I haven't found any refference on Man homosexuality so far).

 

I was stating my opinion that a particularly stressfull situation or time phase isn't an excuse to turn in to homosexual. More to that point, If you are not born homosexual, on those situation if you turn into one, you are doing it for sexual pleasure(relief, more likely).Also that RJ didn't say everyone of them take pillow friend.So in my opinion, if one isn't born as homosexual, can not find the complete pleasue and fullfillment, unless they engage with opposite sex. Those pillow friend relationship and in case of prison, the fact is merely of "Need" and control. It also depends on how much control a person have on him or herself. It speaks volume of the personality.

 

Perhapes, RJ was trying to imply that the rule that a Novice or accepted is not being able to interact with man, is useless and completely pointless, since we see how RJ depicted that among Aiel it is permitted. And we also found the Aiel Channeler's personality is far more better than the Aes sedai.

 

Luckers, you are right, I belong to a Abrahamic society. And when I say I have respect for religion, I mean the three main stream religion "Jews, Christ and Muslim". I don't have a modicum of respect for any other. You can think what-ever you can think of me. But thats who I am. I am not a fanatic and I do not follow any ritual, in short I am not attached to any of them but for some anti-Abrahamic things I have very very little tolerance. It is not because of the fact that these three religion disapprove these things, it is because I personally dis-approve these things as well.I understand why these religion frown upon them.

 

Once again I want to make it clear that I believe in the God, but I am not attached to any religion, even if I was born into a Abrahamic society.

 

As for science, no I am not wrong. Before you leap into establish any opinion,think clearly. I was talking about science in an abstarct sense. Sex between opposite sex ensure natural balance(reproduction and natural order of things). You find science heartless when it depicts the necessity of the food chain.But that is mostly pragmatic and natural instinct of surviving. Science sees Nuclear as a threat when used as a weapon but not when it is used as a means of source of power. Science consider homosexual attarction as an annomaly so does the three main stream religion.

But science will see it as threat to humankind if it spread beyond annomaly, beyond those who are born as a homosexual.Test tube or no test tube, there is other aspect of human nature that closely relates to civilization.

 

As it is clear that those pillow friend was forced in a way to become homosexual but wasn't born as a homosexual, will give science every reason to worry.

 

So for pillow friend thingy of white tower, both science and religion will agree that something needs to be done to ensure natural order of thing.The free choice is being crushed there(remember, most of those woman isn't homosexual, they weren't given any choices).

 

Disrupting the natural way of things isn't science way.

 

[trakand_01]

I think that perhaps in some cases, it could be that there were cases of supressed homo- or bi-sexuality.

 

for example if you were born and raised in a society which expected you to marry a man, which you did, and you had never had the opportunity to even consider if you were attracted to your own sex, how would you know?

 

Then when put in a very intense situation such as the novices are, with members of your own sex, i find it believable that some individuals may discover that they do have genuine feelings for members of their own sex, which had not had the opportunity to surface until now.

[anamul]

trakand_01, I see your point. But still what about those who aren't born homosexual and find it repulsive???

 

Look at Siuan for instance, she isn't a homosexualist(what with Gareth bryan and all). Neither is Moiraine. If some one who isn't homosexual but still do it without any kind of compulsion(like prison and the situation with white tower), then they are according to me is "perverse".

 

Come to think of it, Elaida is very likely a homo, may be most of the Red as well.

[Luckers]

As for science, no I am not wrong. Before you leap into establish any opinion,think clearly. I was talking about science in an abstarct sense. Sex between opposite sex ensure natural balance(reproduction and natural order of things). You find science heartless when it depicts the necessity of the food chain.But that is mostly pragmatic and natural instinct of surviving. Science sees Nuclear as a threat when used as a weapon but not when it is used as a means of source of power. Science consider homosexual attarction as an annomaly so does the three main stream religion.

But science will see it as threat to humankind if it spread beyond annomaly, beyond those who are born as a homosexual.Test tube or no test tube, there is other aspect of human nature that closely relates to civilization.

 

I'm sorry but this is simply inaccurate. Science notates and analyzes--including of things that can be destructive--without judegement. To state that science reguards homosexual as an annomally, or a threat, it simply unsustainable. It observes that sex serves as a procreative purpose, yet nevetheless it includes the specifics of social and personal effects as the full reality. Furthermore modern sociological though allows for the necessary existence of traits that do not exist purely to serve in evolutional advancement of the individual--i.e. the procuring of a mate, procreation and rearing of offspring.

 

Sex in its full reality serves more purpose than procreation--and does so in every society, both human and animal. Science observes that, there is no way around it.

 

 

[Elgee]

trakand_01, I see your point. But still what about those who aren't born homosexual and find it repulsive???

 

Simple: They don't engage in sexual activities with people of their own gender.

 

Look at Siuan for instance, she isn't a homosexualist(what with Gareth bryan and all). Neither is Moiraine. If some one who isn't homosexual but still do it without any kind of compulsion(like prison and the situation with white tower), then they are according to me is "perverse".

 

There is no compulsion within the Wite Tower for anyone to engage in any kind of sexual practice.  Siuan and Moiraine, and a whole host of others, are more than likely bi-sexual.

 

Come to think of it, Elaida is very likely a homo, may be most of the Red as well.

 

We don't see many Reds, but very few of those we DO meet are depicted as being homosexual(which is a less derogatory term than "a homo"); Elaida is one of the few, in my opinion.  We see more of other Ajah's who are either homosexual (Merise the Green) or bi-sexual (the beautiful White - can't recall her name now).

[anamul]

Once again you read me wrong. I never said that science will regard annomaly as threat. I said science will regard it as a threat if it spread beyond annomaly. If it is forced upon human by society or any given situation, science will be very worry about the post effect. Also I didn't say sex is all about re-production. My first argument was, if not born homosexual, the kind of emptyness one feels or loneliless, can only be fullfilled by one of the opposite sex.

 

There is two kind of science, one with objective and consequences, shortly "good judgement" other just plain old science, which will be intensly dettached of any human objective except its natural evolution.Science will ask why, how and where and merits and demerits of any given situation. Being pragmatic, science will insist on free choice when it comes to sex.Being more pragmatic, test tube aside, it will insist on sex between opposite sex.Being dictator and pragmatic, it may very well decide to hang all the homo.  ;D  ;D  ;D

 

Also as you said, it is not my culture when I said "indecent sex". You were wrong. What I mean by indecent sex was, those who were forced to become homosexual. Consider some one who find it repulsive, and at any given situation like white tower, her free choice is chrushed. Aiel don't do it. But white tower does.So the system of being not given any free choice in this matter is flawed. That system needs to be re-evaluated.Seems like white tower is a paradise for homo. Here the homosexual got to have everyone while in free world, they wouldn't have. No my friend, the system in white tower needs to be re-evaluated.

 

It looks like, white tower's another goal is make "homo" out of people who isn't born homo. In prison it is a punishment, if you are allowed to have a woman or man(incase woman prison). than it won't be that much of a punishment.

[anamul]

trakand_01, then I was right when I said that using the white tower situation is a lame excuse. These people are either homosexual or bisexual.  ;D ;D ;D

 

That how they can fill the void they feel while in white tower. So I was also right when I said, if not a homosexual and bi-sexual than one can never find one of the same sex to fill that kind of emptyness or void.

 

Being said a lot, I want to point out that while, Even if Abrahamic society disapprove of homosexual, by restricting man and woman from mixing freely(specially in conservative family) they are actually creating a situation where people may become homosexual.

 

They are no different than white tower in this aspect.

[Luckers]

Once again you read me wrong. I never said that science will regard annomaly as threat. I said science will regard it as a threat if it spread beyond annomaly. If it is forced upon human by society or any given situation, science will be very worry about the post effect. Also I didn't say sex is all about re-production. My first argument was, if not born homosexual, the kind of emptyness one feels or loneliless, can only be fullfilled by one of the opposite sex.

 

Even in that event it would not reguard it as anything. It would catalogue its effects and realities, and PERHAPS make estimations about its effects. Furthermore science quite clearly also catalogues the beneficial effects of homosexuality to both individual mental health and the social strata. It does not either suggest that homosexuality is abnormal, nor in any way dangerous to the species as a whole.

 

And what i was trying to point out is that your first argument is incorrect--its proven so by history, in which the vast majority of cultures quite freely seek to fulfil that type of lonliness with the same sex despite quite clear indications of a specific and singular attraction to the opposite sex. Indeed in a few cultures i can think of--bon, for instance--love and partnership was availliable only with the same sex, whilst marriage served in more the form of a breeding farm.

 

You may not condone of it, or ever act in it, but to suggest that it is anything other than a clear reality is disengenuos.

 

There is two kind of science, one with objective and consequences, shortly "good judgement" other just plain old science, which will be intensly dettached of any human objective except its natural evolution.Science will ask why, how and where and merits and demerits of any given situation. Being pragmatic, science will insist on free choice when it comes to sex.Being more pragmatic, test tube aside, it will insist on sex between opposite sex.Being dictator and pragmatic, it may very well decide to hang all the homo.

 

Not true. Studies have shown quite clearly the practical and pragmatic roles homosexuality plays within the social arena.

 

Also as you said, it is not my culture when I said "indecent sex". You were wrong. What I mean by indecent sex was, those who were forced to become homosexual. Consider some one who find it repulsive, and at any given situation like white tower, her free choice is chrushed. Aiel don't do it. But white tower does.

 

When does the White Tower do it? Such would be tantemount to rape, and more than clearly Aes Sedai disaprove of that. Indeed, consider Tarna's refusal of Galina, who was the head of her Ajah. And no where does Elayne, Egwene or Nynaeve take part in it. The end line is, if they want to they do, if they don't they don't.

 

No, nowhere does the Tower 'force' homosexuality on its students. They engage in it quite freely as a natural form of relationships with their friends in the novitiate and the sisterhood.

 

I think you mistakenly assume that just because these women arn't lesbians they must be being pushed into something simply because you yourself would never turn to another man for that form of solace--and thats what i've been trying to point out to you, historically that type of relationship is very common.

 

It looks like, white tower's another goal is make "homo" out of people who isn't born homo. In prison it is a punishment, if you are allowed to have a woman or man(incase woman prison). than it won't be that much of a punishment.

 

It wouldn't even occur to such a culture to push homosexuality. They wouldn't even have distinctions for such a thing.

 

Being said a lot, I want to point out that while, Even if Abrahamic society disapprove of homosexual, by restricting man and woman from mixing freely(specially in conservative family) they are actually creating a situation where people may become homosexual.

 

Certainly. It's quite a common result, actually. Insofar as such things go--orientation is a biological directive, so women who arn't inclined to other women, however they may find solace in the arms and beds of their friends, would not be changed.

 

As I've said, it's a relationship style that doesn't exist in the modern world--bexause of the strong anti-homosexuality push, you either were, or you weren't. Clear delineation. But in most cultures it was much blurier. You quite commonly weren't but would still engage in sex with close personal friends.

 

It's a simple reality.

[anamul]

Once again I grow weary of your contradiction. And please speak in a term other can understand. Also historical events and what other culture did is more often than not become a prerogative of the one who cronicles it. I find it repulsive and thats that In real life in this time in this earth, thanx to god most of the people find it so.Geneticaly(where science come in) and mentaly most people view it as repulsive.

 

No one is saying white tower raping, I am saying if it is true that the situation in white tower can force one who isn't born as homosexual to a homosexual than white tower is at false. If not( which I believe so, because as I explained with my life example, that if I can hold on for 15 years under a lot of stress and struggle, and always found the very idea of engaging with same sex as repulsive and bleak to the point of self destruction), then those people including Siaun is either bi-sexual or homosexual.

Also those other religion, which permit and go to great length to persist homosexulaity may have originated by the same type of people.Yes, I am accusing the founder of those religion as a homosexualist or bi-sexual.

 

Now when it comes to philosophy I can babble a lot in that arena, but I choose not to.So line like the following would actually surmise very little in the way most of the people understand.

 

"A persistant view of reasoning once solidify,tends to get influenced by that persons own presumption and more often than not his/her assumption and logical approach to things, lacking the perspective."

 

Now I can go on like this forever, But I don't like to argue. It seems you have a nack of going on for-ever while the others may neither have the patient nor time for it. I can start researching and find historical example, religion and go on arguing my side forever.

 

But I choose not to.Any argument given at any time period can go on for ever. And this simple thing seems to  escape you. I am not trying to be offensive, but you ought to go out and find out more about peoples natural course of attraction.And don't give me any "experimanting example" that isn't relvant.

 

I stand by my opinion that if not born bisexual or homosexual, a person can't fill that kind of void or emptyness by having sex with the same sex.

 

Also I have a feeling that you are not understanding what I am trying to say.

 

There is many kind of science, science isn't history, it doesn't care what any chronicles say. Catalouging is one step of science, not the complete, its the first step, like observing. The result or end game purly depends on its objective and it often takes pragmatic view.

 

Question: Is the situation in white tower is responsible for making people who isn't born homosexual or bisexual, into one?

 

Personaly I belive no. Cause I am living in a far worse situation and I repeat I would rather die before I do it. Extremly repulsive.

 

Question: Would I find that kind of fullfillment by having sex with same sex....you got to be kidding me.Also  my previous statment answer that question. And I am sure other who isn't born homo and bisexual feels the same. If not, then that person is  homosexual or bisexual, he/she just don't know it.

 

The void and emptyness I feel, can't be eradicated or filled by other man.The very idea make me want to shoot some one.  ;D  ;D  ;D

 

Anyway, I am stoping here. As a saying goes and my grandfather was fond of saying, any argument can go on forever, u just have to have sense enough to pull out of it.

 

As for science, depends on how you view "applied science". One branch is acquiring knowledge, analyzing, other is applying. I was refering to application. Science is pragmatic, it wants result.

[Lille]

Irrelevant to the real discussion going on here, something just hit me.

You could make a decent story-line porno out of this. The main character being a White Tower novice, she gets herself into trouble and gets a spanking by the Mistress of Novices and later cries on the shoulder of her best friend which ends with some hot girl on girl action :P

[Dhaos]

Ever talk to someone who's been to an all girl's school? (Woo Catholics!) It happens all the time in our world, with people who don't consider themselves gay, and who later go on to live entirely 'straight' lives.

 

Anamul, just because you consider it disgusting does not mean that most people would react in the same way.  Consider for a moment- just the briefest of moments- that men and women are fundamentally the same.  With your eyes closed, you probably couldn't distinguish between the touch of a man and the touch of a woman.  Everyone's got the same skin.  If that idea makes you uncomfortable, that's your thing.

 

The truth is that 'gay', 'bi', and 'straight' are cultural constructions and that in real life things are more of a gradation.  That you think that the deep void in your heart could only ever be filled by a woman is a construct of your own mind.  It is backed up by the undercurrent in your culture that promises swift violence to anyone who thinks differently. 

 

And if it makes any difference, this is coming from someone 'straight', who's never 'experimented' and has had a pretty steady string of girlfriends for the past 10 years.  I love women.  But I'm not going to say it's IMPOSSIBLE or REPUGNANT that I could fall in love with a man.  I don't think it's likely, since I'm not really attracted to men, but who knows?  Stranger things have happened in this world.  I just don't think that putting things in such black and white terms, as you suggest, makes sense.

 

And so it is in the White Tower.  As stated, stress and isolation are a factor in what makes people experiment: again, see Catholic schools.  Then, there's the whole "Men are inferior" point of view the White Tower espouses.  On top of that, there's the sobering fact that anyone an Aes Sedai loves will grow old and die long before them.  All of these things could push someone toward a 'pillow friend', and do.  It's realistic.

 

But yes, let's call this to a close, and get on to much more important topics, like following up on Lille's suggestion!  ;D

[balefireruinssteaks]

This was my point as well...in an all same-gender environment, people adapt to the situation around them.  If we look at nature, this happens a lot and also if we look at humans this occurs in prisons and single-gendered schools.  I know from personal experience that in these arenas (school in my case) after a while, some of the students initiated various degrees of "pillow friend" type relationships to endure the stay at the school.  Afterward, they resumed actions determined by their actual sexuality.

 

Homosexuality isn't something you can be "forced" to do, and certainly not in the White Tower, as Luckers said.  I think it would be construed as rape and have harsh penalties.  But also, in the society Rand lives in, homosexuality isn't really even an idea.  Some men like women and other men like men...some women like men and other women like women.  Even Tarna (I think that was the one Galina was interested in) mentioned that while some women enjoyed that she herself preferred men - but she did not find it "repulsive" or feel the desire to "die" at the thought of it.

 

Just because it's accepted doesn't mean you HAVE to do it, but I find the language that you're using (phrases like "repulsive" and "even the though of it makes me want to kill myself") a little over the top.  I mean, I generally think vaginas look like gunshot wounds, but the idea of heterosexual sex doesn't make me want to vomit or throw myself from a window.

 

No one is saying in that environment you HAVE to have sex with the same gender, but rather in the Wheel of Time society, such things happen and are not judged or pointed out as being wrong.

[Luckers]

Once again I grow weary of your contradiction.

 

I am sorry for that, but i won't back away from it. What you say is wrong, and proven so. I cannot alter my responses in the slightest, for all that i regret antagonising you.

 

And please speak in a term other can understand.

 

Forgive me, I will clarrify my comments if you let me know which ones were obtuse.

 

Also historical events and what other culture did is more often than not become a prerogative of the one who cronicles it. I find it repulsive and thats that In real life in this time in this earth, thanx to god most of the people find it so.Geneticaly(where science come in) and mentaly most people view it as repulsive.

 

I'm not sure i understand--were you saying that people are genitically inclined to find homosexuality repulsive.

 

Beyond which I rather doubt your suggestion. Maybe most people in your society view it as repulsive, but I've been openly gay for some time, and i've as yet to encounter any great repulsion from others.

 

Furthermore, whilst your suggestion that history can be blurred because of the opinions of the writers is more than true, in this particular case it doesn't hold weight--these practices are well documented by religious writers who held them in as much repulsion as you, if not more. These people may have found them disgusting, but they documented their existence nonetheless.

 

No one is saying white tower raping, I am saying if it is true that the situation in white tower can force one who isn't born as homosexual to a homosexual than white tower is at false. If not( which I believe so, because as I explained with my life example, that if I can hold on for 15 years under a lot of stress and struggle, and always found the very idea of engaging with same sex as repulsive and bleak to the point of self destruction), then those people including Siaun is either bi-sexual or homosexual.

 

To 'force' requires active effort. Since none exists the White Tower is forcing nothing. Simple enforcing a same-sex enviroment does not force same-sex relationships, that occuring is the actions of those involved.

 

That you wouldn't do so in such a situation is simply irrelevant--you grew up in a culture that does not condone that. It's built into your bones. They did not, and it's not something they reguard as wrong, nor really a big deal.

 

Also those other religion, which permit and go to great length to persist homosexulaity may have originated by the same type of people.Yes, I am accusing the founder of those religion as a homosexualist or bi-sexual.

 

Most religions are not created by one individual, but are rather cultural based, elvolving with that culture. Religious leaders of the type you describe occur only in offshoots of pre-existing religions, and more often than not they take a strong position against sex of all forms--those that didn't rarely survived--manicheism being the one exception i can think of, and it died in the end too, for all that it rivalled the Catholic Church for a time.

 

So in effect, they weren't created by a homosexual--or a heterosexual. They evolved, much like language, and at around the same time too.

 

There is many kind of science, science isn't history, it doesn't care what any chronicles say. Catalouging is one step of science, not the complete, its the first step, like observing. The result or end game purly depends on its objective and it often takes pragmatic view.

 

Science is empiric, my friend. It has no objective, no purpose, other than to catalogue and understand in full. You can't get around it. And pragmatism? In your wish to sustain your own feelings of repulsion you keep running headlong back to the idea that homosexuality can't be considered beneficial if it does not allow for procreation, which you purport to be scientifically sustained as the point of sex--yet sociologically and psychologically it's proven otherwise.

 

A true pragmatist would understand the importance of that.

 

Question: Is the situation in white tower is responsible for making people who isn't born homosexual or bisexual, into one?

 

Personaly I belive no. Cause I am living in a far worse situation and I repeat I would rather die before I do it. Extremly repulsive.

 

I agree, it is not. Not because i find your situation relatable--i do not--but because some of the women engaging in this are quite clearly--by their own thoughts and actions--not homosexual or bisexual.

 

But that is not really a logical progression. I would put it thus.

 

EVIDENCE.

 

1. The Tower is a single gender society.

2. Women within the Tower are engaging in same-sex relationships.

3. These women are not forced.

4. There is no active attempt to seduce them into it.

5. Some of these women are not interested in women.

 

CONCLUSION.

 

In their society people of the same sex engage in sex even if not attracted to the same sex as a form of recreation and bonding.

 

I would then proceed to recount situations showing the basis of that statement. Specifically comments indicating that these relationships take place as a form of friendship and bonding, and then statements showing those same women do not hold attractions for the same sex.

 

Question: Would I find that kind of fullfillment by having sex with same sex....you got to be kidding me.Also  my previous statment answer that question. And I am sure other who isn't born homo and bisexual feels the same. If not, then that person is  homosexual or bisexual, he/she just don't know it.

 

The void and emptyness I feel, can't be eradicated or filled by other man.The very idea make me want to shoot some one. 

 

Forgive me for saying this... but who cares? We are not speaking of you, and your personal response to the subject is not really relavent.

 

Or do you honestly hold that everyone would react as you react.

 

Irrelevant to the real discussion going on here, something just hit me.

You could make a decent story-line porno out of this. The main character being a White Tower novice, she gets herself into trouble and gets a spanking by the Mistress of Novices and later cries on the shoulder of her best friend which ends with some hot girl on girl action

 

Lol, funnily enough a few weeks ago i was searching for a quote for here and came accross a fanfic very like that. Now, I'm not interested in women in the slightest, but the author was... very imaginative. Who would have thought the Power could be used like that.

 

 

[Lille]

Lol, funnily enough a few weeks ago i was searching for a quote for here and came accross a fanfic very like that. Now, I'm not interested in women in the slightest, but the author was... very imaginative. Who would have thought the Power could be used like that.

 

the One Power, huh? Care to link? ;)

 

 

 

P.S Im really really bored right now :(

talking about fanfiction, is there any "serious" fanfic for WoT? I read a fan written Harry Potter book a couple of weeks before the 7th book was out and it was actually quite good, would really like to find something like that for WoT :)

[Alive-And-Dreaming]

One thing people need to understand in regards to homosexuality is that there is a massive difference between same-sex intercourse and being L/G.  My sister is a lesbian in that she is physically and romantically attracted to members of the same sex.  That is not the same thing as Same-Sex intercourse, which is merely two individuals of the same sex having sex, regardless of other interaction.  Consider this.  Novices and Accepted are kept in the white tower, with little access to the outside world and very little access to boys their age.  They go through puberty during their stay at the tower and, as a result, they are prone to hormonal explosions.  Romantic and Sexual exploration is common at this age, (I should know, I'm in the middle of it now) and in order to maintain a healthy balance, you really release of some kind.  I think that is what's implied by the term "Pillow-Friends".  Not a romantic attraction to another woman, but an exploratory release in sexual hormones through intercourse. 

[Luckers]

Well again this is more than just hormones or lonliness. This is a style of friendship currently unknown to the world, but was once commonly practiced. Not romantic, certainly, but a friendship that included sexual interaction.

 

And lol, sadly no i don't have a link. Heh.

[Alive-And-Dreaming]

Irrelevant to the real discussion going on here, something just hit me.

You could make a decent story-line porno out of this. The main character being a White Tower novice, she gets herself into trouble and gets a spanking by the Mistress of Novices and later cries on the shoulder of her best friend which ends with some hot girl on girl action :P

 

oh, man.  Think of the possibilities!  Aes Sexai 1: White Tower Wenches!

 

I'd totally buy that.

[Orange Fescue]

Irrelevant to the real discussion going on here, something just hit me.

You could make a decent story-line porno out of this. The main character being a White Tower novice, she gets herself into trouble and gets a spanking by the Mistress of Novices and later cries on the shoulder of her best friend which ends with some hot girl on girl action :P

 

oh, man.  Think of the possibilities!  Aes Sexai 1: White Tower Wenches!

 

I'd totally buy that.

Indeed, brings a whole new meaning the the title "Mistress of Novices".

 

Aes Sexai 2: Novices Gone Wild

Aes Sexai 3: Behind The Green Ajah's Door

 

Could be a whole series with one focusing on each ajah. "Brown: Libertine Librarians" "Yellow: Healing Honeys" "Blue: Prophecy of Passion" "Red: Manhunters" "Green: Livin' La Vida Verde" "White: The Icewomen Co...." I guess I shouldn't use language like that in a family forum, eh?

[Elgee]

You should wander over to the Red Quarters, Org side, Orange - you'll find the Phoenix Lounge ... illuminating *grins*

 

And just to spice up things for you - not only am I a Red Sitter on the Org side, I'm also the Mistress of Novices (from the Red Ajah, of course  ;D) at the RP side

 

[Majsju]

Before this goes out of control, pg 13, folks ;)

[Orange Fescue]

Before this goes out of control, pg 13, folks ;)

Hmmm. Best keep my Gray ajah title to myself, then.  ;)