Creator vs. Dark One

[Feston]

I have this question that's been bugging me. The Dark One's imprisonment is universal throughout all of the worlds. If he broke out in one, he would break out in them all, destroy the Wheel, and recreate it in shadow. This would, of course, be disastrous. Why then, doesn't the Creator just wave his hand and fix the bore in the Pit of Doom? If I was a gardener, and something threatened to burn my entire garden, I'd do whatever I could to stop it. Since he bound the Dark One at the moment of creation, he could easily fix the prison. Why doesn't he?

[aussie_ashaman123]

I think he needs to break free on all worlds to truly break free otherwise it wouldnt make sense. If the universe was truly a series of different reaction to one event, then on at least one of those worlds LTT's attack didnt work and the DO wouldve won

[42Bonzo88]

    We also have to establish who gave us the information concerning the DO. If it was human translation of anything, I would be suspicious. If the Aes Sedai believe that its happening that way... well, we have seen as the books go on that the Aes Sedai have found that they are not all knowing and maybe they are not as great in other ways too.

    I think, (and this is just my opinion with no backup from the books, so please correct me) that it was humanity that messed up (Age of Legends pushing too far with the one power and releasing the DO) and that now humanity needs to fix it. I think the creator is looking at the problem and have made steps for the humans to fix, but he will let them do it. Will or maybe forbidden to help. When it comes to Gods, either in the real world or in books, they have rules they need to follow, that humans seldom understand. Makes for a good story anyway.

[Feston]

"No, child. There is one Creator, who exists everywhere at once for all of these worlds. In the same way, there is only one Dark One, who also exists in all of these worlds at once. If he is freed from his prison the Creator made in one world, he is freed on all. So long as he is kept prisoner in one, he remains imprisoned on all."

 

1) If the Creator and the Dark One had to follow certain rules, and those rules prevented the Creator from directly stopping the Dark One, those same rules would prevent the Dark One from directly interfering with human affairs and be forced to use the Forsaken and Shadowspawn to do his work. If that was true, there would be no reason to bind him into Shayol Ghul.

 

2) This quote is from Verin Sedai in The Dragon Reborn, on page 239. Verin is of the brown Ajah, whose entire purpose is to find knowledge and extract truth from it. If any Aes Sedai information was correct, it would be this.

 

3) If the Dark One had to break free on all of the worlds, that means there would be multiple Dark Ones, one from each world. Since the Dark One is the Creator's polar opposite, that would mean there would be multiple Creators. That would make even less sense than the Dark One's imprisonment being a universal constant, because there are multiple worlds, but only one Wheel Of Time.

[Leopoled Boothe]

These are just my personal thoughts on the matter, nothing in the books to back this up as far as I know, but to me it seems that the world in which the story takes place is the only real world while the portal stone worlds are just reflections of what might have been.  In order for the DO to break free he must break free in the real world.  Once this happens the refection of this event would carry over into all the portal stone worlds.  This is the only way the story can really make sense.  Otherwise the characters of Randland could all just be sitting around one day minding their own business when all of a sudden everything goes dark and Mat excalaims "Blood and bloody ashes the DO must have broken free in one of those portal stone worlds.  Well guess nothing we did in this world really mattered did it?"

[bronnt]

The quote that Feston supplied from Verin comes early enough in the series that we don't really have much reason to doubt Aes Sedai knowledge.  Therefore, we shouldn't just assume that Verin didn't know what she was talking about.

 

What I do believe, though, is that RJ was purposely making a contradiction to make the philosophy of the Wheel rather dense.  RJ would say that it's the truth of the Age Lace, I'm sure.

 

For example...if there's a world that exists for each possible event, there would surely be a world in which humans never drilled the Bore.  If the Bore was never drilled, the DO would never be able to break free in that world, so he'd remain in prison.  But in another world, perhaps the Hundred Companions never assaulted Shayol Ghul, and the forces of Light lost the War of Power.  In that world, the Dark One would already be free.  Yet, these two worlds are utter contradictions.

 

I'd love it if someone could find an interpretation to what Verin said that I could make my peace with, though.  But the only part of the pattern we should be concerned with is the one in which the DO is still bound but trying to break free.

 

Since we're hoving on the topic, has it ever been confirmed that it was the Creator that Rand heard in EotW?  Sometimes, given the vicinity to Shayol Ghul, I've wondered if it isn't the DO.

[Luckers]

On the topic of why the Creator has not acted--keep in mind that we don't actually know an aweful lot about the Creator. A while back I wrote a thing about what we can deduce of his nature, and why he is not involving himself, here it is. Hope it helps.

 

Ok, so i created this thread out of a discussion that is ongoing in the "Who says there's going to be a bloody body swap?!?!?!" thread. I basically stems around a question asked by Robert. Specifically, this question.

Quote

Yeah, the same catechism also says that the Creator bound all the Forsaken with the Dark One at the moment of creation. It's factuality is a tad suspect.

 

As indicated by what?  I'm genuinely curious here ... what happens in the books that makes you suspect that the Creator isn't what he's acclaimed to be?

 

I responded to that interchange in the thread, if your curious. But i will be moving beyond it in this thread. Here, i will be looking at the following questions.

 

1. Are the statements in the text an accurate portrayal of the Creator?

2. What do we actually know of the Creator?

3. What is the Creator's stance on events in the books, and what are his intentions?

 

Are the statements in the text an accurate portrayal of the Creator?

 

The above quote from the body swap thread raises this issue clearly, to my mind. What we know of the Creator is mostly the function of superstition, and wherever we have been able to compare it verifiable facts within the rest of the books it has been proven completely wrong. Hell, the Dark One, the only living being that could possibly remember the Creator has never, to this date, mentioned him. Even when he falls into rants about his enemies, he has only ever refered to the Dragon--and him as his ancient nemises.

 

We are talking about a character in a text, a character whose nature, purpose or even reality we have no way of addressing or verifying... or even suggestively examining.

 

Concider every other of these beliefs as we've been exposed to them.

 

1. The Forsaken sealed in the Bore at the moment of Creation. False.

2. All Aes Sedai serve the Dark One, intentionally broke the world, and now seek to do it again. False.

3. The Dragon was the left-hand of the Dark One and intentionally broke the world on his behalf. False.

4. The Dragon shall be Reborn to bring about the end of the world for the Dark One. False.

 

They are superstitions. And like all superstitions they are based in fact. Yes, the Forsaken were bound, yes the Aes Sedai were the direct source of the breaking, yes the Dragon also had a direct hand in the breaking, and yes the Dragon Reborn will have a cataclysmic effect on the modern world. But these are all simplifications.

 

What makes me thing that the Creator is anything other than what he is acclaimed to be, Robert? The mere fact of the method of that claim.

 

What do we actually know of the Creator?

 

The Creator bears some similarity to the idea of the western godhood, which i suspect does cloud the issue. Try and step away from that for a moment, and take a look at what we actually know of the Creator.

 

1. Supposedly he made the Wheel of Time.

 

2. When he made the Wheel, he impisoned the Dark One--at least supposedly, in reality, based on descriptions of the wheel and reality, it appears to me more as if the Dark One were excluded from the circle of the wheel, not imprisoned. It might be better termed to say that the Dark One was exiled from the Wheel.

 

3. People feel that he has some form of ability to shelter them, or protect them, or influence their lives in a positive manner. This is not a belief structue, but rather whats known as a 'deisis' a pervasive spiritual or social 'feeling'. The best analogy would be in the way certain people feel about luck, or fate. It's not a religious ideology, as such, yet in some ways it is.

 

All three of these things we have by, at best, a billion-hand long source listing. Basically, these are the socialized beliefs that everyone believes simply because everyone believes them.

 

But what have we seen of the Creators actions? As the saying goes, actions speak louder than words.

 

1. We have the voice that spoke to Rand in tEotW. Maybe.

2. A total absense from all other events.

 

The second point is tainted by the fact that we may not be aware of his actions, yet we can state given the way he dealt with Rand that he can't pull strings in the sense of forcing or pushing people to do things without there knowledge. Else, why would he have revealed himself at that stage. So, if he has been influencing events, it must be at a pretty small level, or through direct interaction with a character whose interactions we have not been privy to (which i personally concider unlikely).

 

But what can we tell from what we do know of the Creator's actions?

 

What is the Creator's stance on events in the books, and what are his intentions?

 

The following is based essentially on the idea of looking at what we have witnessed of the Creator seperate of what we expect him to be (A judeo-christian god-like figure--and don't suggest that you don't have some mold of such in your mind, even i do, and im as athiest as they come). Given how little we know of the Creator, it is obviously very loose logic, and i acknowledge that.

 

Firstly, we have the obvious question, why has the Creator not involved himself in the war against the Dark One. To my mind, there are three plausible answers.

 

1. He wont. For whatever reason, he chooses to remain aloof.

2. He can't. He doesn't have the power to actually go toe to toe with the Dark One.

3. He doesn't care. Or else, he has his own cares, and doesn't have time to waste on the Earth.

 

He won't.

 

Argument one, that he won't involve himself, is certainly supported by the comments in the Eye of the World, if you accept them as coming from the Creator. Or is it? (Muahaha?)

 

If he could act, but chooses not to, then why does he in fact involve himself? It certainly suggests some form of vested interest in the outcome of the struggle between mankind and the Dark One. So what is that interest? Is it on humanities behalf? I rather doubt it--for one thing, the function of rebirth and the lack of any form of sin-system takes away any purpose for allowing people to handle their own fight against the Shadow.

 

By which I mean, this ain't the Christian God. Letting humanity deal with the Dark One cannot be a gesture in the function of free will, since the whole 'heaven', 'hell' goal system is out of the game. If he's willing to influence events at all by aiding Rand in that manner, then he's not doing the high minded 'god' thing.

 

At least, not to my mind. Still, its a possibility. But if that is the case, the whole 'Creator steps in at the last moment to save humanity' thing... its out. If he'd been going to do that, he would have done it already, and if he had the power to do that with impunity, and it had occured in previous turnings of the wheel, then the Dark One would know it was coming. A function of pointlessness.

 

But where is the suggestion that the Creator even has the power to slap the Dark One down?

 

He Can't.

 

Thie brings us to option number two; that the Creator can't step in because he doesn't have the power.

 

Once again, this isn't a God/Satan relationship. Or rather, if you want to suggest that it is, go find some evidence. Because there is nothing to suggest that the Creator is some benign being withholding his hand because of the memory of the love he once bore the Dark One. But what evidence is there?

 

1. The Imprisonment Factor.

 

So, the Creator imprisoned the Dark One, therefore he must be more powerful?

 

Thats fine and dandy, but is it a realistic judgement of the situation? The Dark One and the Creator could be exactly even in strength, and due to circumstance the Creator may have won. Hell, the Dark One may have even have been stronger. Concider Lan's fight with Ryne in New Spring. Ryne was better, but due to hubris he lost.

 

Furthermore, did the Creator actually imprison the Dark One in the sense of locking him up? The answer is more that probably no. The size of the cosmic reality that we deal with is simply too large. The Creator constructed a realm that was circular, and he constructed it with the Dark One outside the circle. There isn't even the requirement for a confrontation in that action--indeed, there is actually the suggestion of the desire to AVOID a confrontation. He built walls, not to keep something in, but to keep something out. Any implication of the power balance that can be established by the act of 'imprisoning' the Dark One sort of slids in the favour of the Dark One in that.

 

So, we have the implication of an avoidance system. Something that is then backed up by the following lack of open confrontation. Yet, if the Creator feels so scared of the Dark One, why doesn't he tale a very active hand in aiding the forces of the light--supplying them with intel, only not just once, like with Rand, but all the time. Sort of a 'psst! Dude, FYI, that girl that looks like Tuon... yeah, she's totally Semirhage'.

 

He Doesn't Care

 

Which brings us to option number three. The Creator doesn't care, or rather, he has other games to play.

 

So we have a history of non-involvement, but also the suggestion of non-interest. So maybe he just doesn't give two hoots about the game thats being played out again and again. Maybe he's moved on to bigger and better things, like writing his memoirs, buying a penis car, and getting an offensively young girlfriend.

 

But wait, that doesn't make sense. Because we saw him help Rand (maybe). And, if you believe the hype, he created this wheel with its complex system of self-fighting the Dark One, including hoarding souls in TAR to play hero, spitting out Ta'veren to save the day (and strike cutting figures in their shirtsleeves), providing people with visions of the future so they can compose the bad poetry that we name the Karetheon Cycle....

 

Holy untenable plot points batman, it just doesn't make sense! Or does it?

 

The reality is that what we see matches a being who is more interested than doing something else then eternally battling an insane hell god. He devises a self-sufficient system that protects itself from incursion, then hides, completely incircled by it. He shows no interest in the progression of that system--none of God's 'though must live rightously because i so care about all of my childrens wellbeing'--indeed, he only involves himself at the rare moments when things are looking bad.

 

Frankly i buy this last one. I don't think that the Creator feels overly threatened by the Dark One, but nor does he have enough power to simply sweep him aside.

 

 

 

 

There is a fourth option, by the by. In imprisoning the Dark One and creating the wheel, the Creator may have depleted himself so completely that he is little more than a memory, or a dream--the dream of a godlike being, sure, but nothing to get spiffed about. It might even have been his last resort.

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

I seem to remember Lanfear having discovering the True Power being what freed the Dark One. So the Creator will indeed be leaving mankind to sort out a problem they brought on themselves.

 

Either that or the Creator spent too long doing his nails after Sealing the Dark One in his prison and doesnt want to risk breaking them.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Or how about this:

 

The creator was a powerfull being who one day discovered a substance that he called age-lace.  Realizing that he could create and entire world from this age lace he began experimenting with it.  Finally he comes up with an image of what he wants his world to be and invents a wheels that can spin the age-lace into that world.  However, something goes arry with the experiment and The Creator inadvertatnly become trapped within the age-lace.  Not ready to give up on his ideal creation, The Creator immediately begins trying to find a way to free himself and give his experiment another try.  Unfortuantlly that wheel that cause things to go so wrong the first time will have to go, but once he has destoryed it he can reshape his creation according to his origional image.  And so what if the creation that imprisons him is full of sencient beings, to make an omlette you have break a few eggs, right?

 

Unfortunatly, the wheel he created is a self sustaining systems and is at least alive enough to have a sense of self preservation.  Therefore, it spins out things like ta'veren inorder to keep the Creator imprisoned and even hardwires the beings that represent its threads to think of the creator as a Dark One (and we can't really blame them for thinking of him as such, he does want to destroy them).

 

Thus, it turns out that the Creator and the Dark One and one and the same.  This does meet the qualifictions of the Creator imprisoning the DO at the moment of creation and the DO's desire to break out of his prison and recreate the world in his own image.

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

1. The Forsaken sealed in the Bore at the moment of Creation. False.

2. All Aes Sedai serve the Dark One, intentionally broke the world, and now seek to do it again. False.

3. The Dragon was the left-hand of the Dark One and intentionally broke the world on his behalf. False.

4. The Dragon shall be Reborn to bring about the end of the world for the Dark One. False.

UNQUOTE

 

Iv never heard about any of these from the books.

[Orange Fescue]

QUOTE

1. The Forsaken sealed in the Bore at the moment of Creation. False.

2. All Aes Sedai serve the Dark One, intentionally broke the world, and now seek to do it again. False.

3. The Dragon was the left-hand of the Dark One and intentionally broke the world on his behalf. False.

4. The Dragon shall be Reborn to bring about the end of the world for the Dark One. False.

UNQUOTE

 

Iv never heard about any of these from the books.

 

Numbers 2, 3, and 4 are folk beliefs among many of the peasantry and are mentioned by characters in the text. Theology can get muddled in the minds of peasants with no formal education, explaining 3 and 4. Folk memories of history, especially with Aes Sedai behavior and Whitecloak propaganda leading to suspicion, explain number 2. Did the AS break the world? Yes. Did they mean to break it? No.

 

Number 1 is, I believe, a misreading of the text by Luckers. When Rand first tries to tell Nynaeve that the Forsaken are free, she recites what sounds like part of the Randland catechism. The words something to the effect of "The Forsaken are trapped in Shayol Ghul with the Dark One, imprisoned by the Creator at the moment of creation."  Luckers reads that as meaning "The Forsaken are trapped in Shayol Ghul with the Dark One and the whole lot of them were imprisoned by the Creator at the moment of creation." with the final clause modifying the Forsaken as well as the DO.  I read it as "The Forsaken are trapped in Shayol Ghul with the Dark One, where the Dark One was imprisoned by the Creator at the moment of creation." with the final clause modifying only the DO and "trapped in Shayol Ghul" modifying the Forsaken.

 

Numbers 2, 3, and 4, merely reflect a lack of proper information. Number 1, if it were a normal belief in Randland, would indicate a lack of more than information. 

[Luckers]

Number 1 is, I believe, a misreading of the text by Luckers. When Rand first tries to tell Nynaeve that the Forsaken are free, she recites what sounds like part of the Randland catechism. The words something to the effect of "The Forsaken are trapped in Shayol Ghul with the Dark One, imprisoned by the Creator at the moment of creation."  Luckers reads that as meaning "The Forsaken are trapped in Shayol Ghul with the Dark One and the whole lot of them were imprisoned by the Creator at the moment of creation." with the final clause modifying the Forsaken as well as the DO.  I read it as "The Forsaken are trapped in Shayol Ghul with the Dark One, where the Dark One was imprisoned by the Creator at the moment of creation." with the final clause modifying only the DO and "trapped in Shayol Ghul" modifying the Forsaken.

 

The catechism is actually much clearer than that.

 

"The Dark One and all of the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, beyond the Great Blight, bound by the Creator at the moment of Creation, bound until the end of time."

 

[The Eye of the World - page 57]

 

The Dark one and all of the forsaken are bound at the moment of creation. It's inclusionary.

 

The full catechism is only ever stated twice, for all that is referenced many times, the first is above, Rands. The second time is Nynaeve's in tDR chapter 51 and it's even more succinct and clear.

 

"The Dark One and all the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, bound by the Creator in the moment of creation"

[RAND AL THOR]

It is unlikely that the creator will involve himself in any way at TG. Furthermore, the events at the end of the EofW are strange and many weird things are present there, some of which have never been explained properly. The voice heard maybe the creator, but if so, the creator could have 'talked' to Rand more often. Furthermore, it is also unlikely to be the DO since the DO can only be heard at Shayol Ghul, Otherwise it is not necessary for the forsaken to go to shayol ghul to talk to him.

 

In conclusion, the creator will not involve himself in AMOL.

[Orange Fescue]

 

The catechism is actually much clearer than that.

 

"The Dark One and all of the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, beyond the Great Blight, bound by the Creator at the moment of Creation, bound until the end of time."

 

[The Eye of the World - page 57]

 

The Dark one and all of the forsaken are bound at the moment of creation. It's inclusionary.

 

The full catechism is only ever stated twice, for all that is referenced many times, the first is above, Rands. The second time is Nynaeve's in tDR chapter 51 and it's even more succinct and clear.

 

"The Dark One and all the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, bound by the Creator in the moment of creation"

 

Thank you for the citations and text, Luckers. I guess automatically corrected Nynaeve's statement in my mind.

[aevogt]

I've always viewed the WoT creator as something in the manner of Arthur C. Clark's aliens in 2001. 

 

They seed life amongst the stars and then move on, never to return or interfere.

 

Even the sentient tools they leave behind, to assist or warn, (in that case it was one of several monoliths) are more or less, dispassionate over the fate of their life forms.

 

 

[benr]

Or how about this:

 

The creator was a powerfull being who one day discovered a substance that he called age-lace.  Realizing that he could create and entire world from this age lace he began experimenting with it.  Finally he comes up with an image of what he wants his world to be and invents a wheels that can spin the age-lace into that world.  However, something goes arry with the experiment and The Creator inadvertatnly become trapped within the age-lace.  Not ready to give up on his ideal creation, The Creator immediately begins trying to find a way to free himself and give his experiment another try.  Unfortuantlly that wheel that cause things to go so wrong the first time will have to go, but once he has destoryed it he can reshape his creation according to his origional image.  And so what if the creation that imprisons him is full of sencient beings, to make an omlette you have break a few eggs, right?

 

Unfortunatly, the wheel he created is a self sustaining systems and is at least alive enough to have a sense of self preservation.  Therefore, it spins out things like ta'veren inorder to keep the Creator imprisoned and even hardwires the beings that represent its threads to think of the creator as a Dark One (and we can't really blame them for thinking of him as such, he does want to destroy them).

 

Thus, it turns out that the Creator and the Dark One and one and the same.  This does meet the qualifictions of the Creator imprisoning the DO at the moment of creation and the DO's desire to break out of his prison and recreate the world in his own image.

 

 

 

I like this, Boothe.  If you want to look at this from the point of view somewhat put forth by Luckers that most of what the people of Randland think of the Creator is folklore, and then throw in an Atheistic point of view, this works very well.  It explains all of the DO/Creator questions, and also explains why the Creator/DO would be pushing Rand to break the Wheel - a view that pops up in these threads from time to time.  We shall see!

[Lille]

My theory about why the Creator doesn't meddle in the affairs in randland is that he simply can't. Because the creator exists outside of time, and would probably destroy what he created if he breached that barrier. The reason the Dark One can take a direct hand in events is because he exists in time, where the Creator imprisoned him. So if the Creator took a direct hand in events he would destroy time, the Dark Ones prison.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Heres a theory that I came up with.

 

The Creator made the Wheel of Time to create the Pattern of Ages. He gave the Wheel the ability to shape the Pattern, to make the Pattern maintain a perfect balance without needing his constant attention. The Dark One couldn't resist his urge to tamper with it, as it was such a marvelous creation, he wanted it for himself. The Creator foresaw the Dark Ones intention and bound the Dark One within the Pattern. If you wish, you could go on to say that the Creator "tied off the weaves" of the prison and the knot of it is where Shayol Ghul is. Since then, the Dark One has been trying to untie that knot, to break out of the prison, and slowly but surely he is succeeding. His progress on untying the knot  led to the development of the Blight, kind of like a bad smell that emanated from the place he put most of his attention on, a bad smell that poisoned the land nearby.

 

The Creator refuses to interfere with his Creation, in this theory, for two reasons. 1) He wishes to see exactly how far the Wheel, his greatest creation,  has come, to see whether it is still able to counter the moves of the Dark One  and maintain the balance.So far it has been successful each time, by spinning out its heroes and champions and reborn souls to battle those reincarnated by the Dark One. 2) If he did take a hand in events, it would become a tug of war between him and the Dark One, and this could tear the Pattern apart. The Wheel is like a son, and the Pattern like a grandson, so while he could just as easily make a new one he would rather see it carry on.

[Feston]

That, actually, is my favorite answer so far. No offense to the other theories, but I like the way that sounds. It makes sense to me.

[BrainFireBob]

I favor the Creator-as-diffuse idea. Fits RJ's parallels.

 

ie, Creation is the Creator- his "power" drives the Wheel, pieces of his self provide the soul pool, etc.

 

That's me, though.

[trakand_01]

I reckon the Creator made the world, and the wheel, and then went off toplay chess with the other 'Gods'. The Dark One, seeing he was pre-occupied, snook in the back door and messed with it all. Oh no, wait... wrong series  ;)

[Zarfol]

Didn't Rand in KOD rant on about the creator when thinking of how Logain thought that the creator had cleansed Saiding, and the world sort of shook, he felt dizzy, he had a migraine at that exact moment? I remember him also thinking that was something LTT would think about, philosophy and all that. Seems like that happens when people say the dark ones true name as well?

 

Does that mean that the creator is actually watching, or just a coincidence? Or is my memory just bad?

[Red2111]

^ i don't remember him getting a head ach.  just a swirl of colors from thinking of mat at the time.  but yes he does blame it on LTT.

 

if you take the Creator and DO into respect with how we view good and evil in this world (like in movies and other books and such) it explains exactly why the Creator doesn't interfer directly, while the DO reaches out and twists his own threads.  put in a blutn way.  Good(the creator) follows the rules, evil(DO) cheats.

 

i think that Dreadlord touched on how the Creator feels.  it's his experiment, he wants to see how it runs on its own until it's out of gas and dies so he can create a new one without the fualts of the older version  (like upgrading a game or software)

 

but heres my added thoughts on it

 

if you think of it, maybe looking at it as more like a game is easier.

 

the Creator is the being that created the wheel, the lace, the pattern and everything.  he also created the DO, automatically making him imprisioned but laying within the lace the ability for the people and creatures he created to choose which side they wanted, good or bad.  to combat this entity he created Ta'vern and the DR and the Heroes (threads that are reborn into the system to always fight for good).  the patteren is a software that adapts and unpgrades on its own (and AI if you will) with a set amount of people and creatures it can spit out (leading to being re-born).  the creatures and people are able to think for themselves and choose their own fates.  though every thread has the ability to either choose good or evil reguardless if they are ta'veren or the DR.

 

we learned through Rand, using a Portal stone and chats with sightblinder, that the DR can side and has sided with the shadow before.  leading to the DO breaking free.  the DO has even told him, you DR have sided with me before, i have broken out and remade the world in my image before and it will happen again, so why not just make it short and go ahead and bow to me now.

 

if the DO breaks free then the program is discarded and a new program started, with tweaks made to make it harder and more interesting to the Creator to watch.

 

 

 

as for the prison of the DO; it was made whole at the time of creation without a hole.  when Rand is in Rhuidean his last vision of his ancestors is of the hole being bored through the dark one's prison by Lanfear.

 

this is thought to be, or addressed as much, as the first whole to be drilled into the DO's prision in that pattern.

 

then it's onto LTT and his hundred companions who make the 7 seals and because the 13 forsaken are those who conspired to free the DO, they are also sealed in with the DO when the Aes Sedia are able to place the seals.

 

 

come to think of it, re-reading the prequel of EotW a guy named Elan Morin (Betrayer) makes LTT sain enough to see what he's done and break the world.

 

Betrayer wasn't sealed in with the 13 forsaken but is obviously in with that group and i beleive he's also channeling the True Source.  i'm thinking that this character is either Luc/Slayer or Moridin.  Osan'gar is quoted saying that Moridin was mad with power before they were sealed in the prision.  now i don't know if they is including Moridin, but i've always felt that this statement was to set Moridin as a seperate character from the forsaken as Nea'blis.

[BrainFireBob]

That was the link to Moridin kicking in- Moridin, who was Ishamael, foremost nihilist philosopher of his Age?

 

The link that makes them both sick, resulting from crossing their balefire streams in Cos?

[drunkengrizzly]

Red, a few issues with your post...the dark one has never talked to rand directly.  that was ishmael/moridin.  that was revealed in either tgh or tdr.  and in the prologue for eye of the world, elan morin is ishmael, the betrayer of hope.  we get his name filtered from ltt in one of rand's pov's later on.