The "Lanfear to Cyndane" problem

[Mr Ares]

Wasn't there a theory at one point that Lanfear had visited the Finns once before, wished for more strength, and those wishes were revoked since when she entered the doorway again? That explains why her strength was diminished when she was transmigrated by the Dark One. What disqualified that one?

 

Actually, now that I think about it, I'm not sure which doorway it was that she was knocked into, it may not have been the wishes one.

It was the Eelfinn/"wishes" doorway (be wary about the use of the term wishes - they are more like merchants than genies). The theory you mention is disqualified on the basis of there being absolutely nothing in the books to indicate Lanfear ever having gone to the Finns (either set) before, nor any hint, however small, that they can change someones strength in the Power. Furthermore, the dorways prevent return visits, so any previous visit could not have come via the doorway, so far as we know (and we have no reason to suspect otherwise, etc. etc.).Good theories are supported by evidence.

 

another bit of beef i have with Lanfear being "healed".

 

you guys are saying she and Moiraine were burned out as they went through the door.  you guys object the possibillity that maybe the Finns have some ability to sever soemone from the Source (still them)

 

as we have been told, Stilling and being burnt out are different in a few ways.

 

Stillign is where someone cuts your abilit to channel, yet you can still feel the source.  i beleive it's been suggested that when a Sister "Burns herself out" the abilit to channel is seared out of her, and possibly she can no longer even feel the source.

 

the only reason why stilling can be heled, is because there is still a link that can be bridged; where as with burning out, it's burned away and no such link exists.

 

so by this logic, to say that Lanfear was burned out, and then healed is a conflict and hypocritical to say the least.  in essance, having your cake and eating it too.

Stop right there. That burning out can't be healed is not supported by anything in the books. There is no conflict. Also, as Luckers so frequently points out, in the cases of three Aes Sedai "stilled" by Rand at Dumai's Wells we do not see the usual razor sharp variation of the shielding weave to still them, and for all that they are referred to as stilled they could just as easily have been "burned out", given their abilities are crushed in fists of spirit. So this could be evidence in favour of the healing of burn out being possible. At the very least there is nothing to say it can't be and some small evidence, however debatable, that it can be. And why do you put healed in quotation marks? What other expalnation is there? What evidence is there to support the possibility of that something else? And if she was burned out/stilled/severed then how else could she be channeling now? "I got better" doesn't really cut it.

 

as for "dieing is a means of escape" isn't one that Moiriane would choose to pick. there is no certainty of being "reborn" back into the pattern like Lanfear and the other Forsaken for her. not to mention, she knows that by folowing certain events and doing certain things the possibility of being rescued is greatly increased; she knows that there is a chance that Mat will come to rescue her, and that by Min's veiwing, she has to be there to help Rand at TG. so no, dieing is a possibility that Moiriane wouldn't consider.

So you see my point. Just because Lanfear found a way to escape, doesn't mean Moiraine can escape as well. Also, while Lanfear has no certainty of being transmigrated, Moiraine has a certainty that she will not be. If she dies, that is the end of Moiraine Damodred, even if her soul is later reborn.

[RAND AL THOR]

Does anyone know what the bracelet was made of? the Finns are sort of picky regarding 'iron.'

 

Also, they do not like people to bring torches/lamps. If Moiraine and Lanfear were channeling as they entered the Finn Realm or if they continued to channel after passing through the doorway, would any flashes of light count as bringing torches/lamps? I haven't seen this idea discussed before.

 

That may be why they were both imprisoned. :o

[Mr Ares]

Any flashes of light would probably count against them, given that anything for making light is on the prohibited list. Bear in mind that there was a lot of light on the Randland side of the doorway, which could easily translate into light on the other side, and said light would be unlikely to win them any friends with the Finns. Plus there was the doorway - a potentially valuable source of trade - being destroyed. The Eelfinn have no reason to be nice to Lanfear or Moiraine, do they?

[RAND AL THOR]

Any flashes of light would probably count against them, given that anything for making light is on the prohibited list. Bear in mind that there was a lot of light on the Randland side of the doorway, which could easily translate into light on the other side, and said light would be unlikely to win them any friends with the Finns.

 

Exactly.  ;D

[Leopoled Boothe]

Now since Moriden can use the True Power, a limiting weave that would be undectable by those using Saiden or Saider would seem a better possibility.

 

Excellent point, I hadn't though of that.  It could be that Lanfear has be fitted with a partial shield similar to what she put on Asmo but made of the true power so she can't detect it.  Nice theory.

[Lille]

Now since Moriden can use the True Power, a limiting weave that would be undectable by those using Saiden or Saider would seem a better possibility.

 

Excellent point, I hadn't though of that.  It could be that Lanfear has be fitted with a partial shield similar to what she put on Asmo but made of the true power so she can't detect it.  Nice theory.

 

Except that a shield doesnt lower your strength, it just makes you unable to use your full strenght. And Demandred says that Mesaana or Semirhage (cant remember) says that Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear was, and we know that females can feel how strong someone else is with the power without them holding it.

[Luckers]

another bit of beef i have with Lanfear being "healed".

 

you guys are saying she and Moiraine were burned out as they went through the door.  you guys object the possibillity that maybe the Finns have some ability to sever soemone from the Source (still them)

 

Indeed we do. If they had such an ability they would have used it against Rand. Beyond that, though, Moiraines bond was snapped as she went through the door--we have confirmation within seconds. Sorry mate.

 

Stillign is where someone cuts your abilit to channel, yet you can still feel the source.  i beleive it's been suggested that when a Sister "Burns herself out" the abilit to channel is seared out of her, and possibly she can no longer even feel the source.

 

the only reason why stilling can be heled, is because there is still a link that can be bridged; where as with burning out, it's burned away and no such link exists.

 

so by this logic, to say that Lanfear was burned out, and then healed is a conflict and hypocritical to say the least.  in essance, having your cake and eating it too.

 

Champ, you should really do some reading before you post. All of your points have been addressed countless times. Yes, burning out is more complete, yet through the realities that are Irgain, Sashelle and Ronaille we know that however more severe it may be, it can still be healed.

 

And hypocritical? I'm sorry, but do you atually know what that word means? Even were everything you said true, it wouldn't be hypocritical. Lol dude.

 

With respect even if you can limit ones power with the Mind Trap why restrict Cylene's power to the extent that cylene's power is so obviously effected. She went from the strongest female channeler possibly the Third most powerful Channeler (after Rand and Moriden's) to being middling in power compared to the other Choosen?  It seems to me lowering her power to where she was still the second or third most powerful forsaken would suit Moriden's purposes better.

 

Now since Moriden can use the True Power, a limiting weave that would be undectable by those using Saiden or Saider would seem a better possibility.

 

Moridin has her soul in vial on his chest. Binding her beyond that is not only pointless, its stupid. It limits a weapon that is completely under his control. She can't attack him, can't even channel around him... no, he hasn't bound her.

 

Wasn't there a theory at one point that Lanfear had visited the Finns once before, wished for more strength, and those wishes were revoked since when she entered the doorway again? That explains why her strength was diminished when she was transmigrated by the Dark One. What disqualified that one?

 

She could not have entered the doorway again, and the Tower of Ghenjei is bound by no pact. Aside from which its completely unsupported--and it would be given the context--and doesn't ecplain a great many other events that occured at the time.

 

Mild in the Power compared to the other Chosen? Where did you get such an idea? Graendal states that men stronger than her are rare, women even more so. This just after realizing that Cyndane is stronger than her.

 

I believe Cyndane still is the most powerful female Forsaken, and one of the strongest women in the world (that we see). I would say that Lanfear, Cyndane (if one considers them as two separate strengths), Alivia, and Sharina are in a league of their own, with Lanfear (former strength) being the strongest, and Cyndane (today's strength) the weakest.

 

But all this is pure conjecture, of course

 

Indeed, I agree with your comment about Cyndane re: mild in the power. But to be fair their is very much the possibility that Alivia and Sharina equal Lanfear.

 

Does anyone know what the bracelet was made of? the Finns are sort of picky regarding 'iron.'

 

Also, they do not like people to bring torches/lamps. If Moiraine and Lanfear were channeling as they entered the Finn Realm or if they continued to channel after passing through the doorway, would any flashes of light count as bringing torches/lamps? I haven't seen this idea discussed before.

 

That may be why they were both imprisoned.

 

Indeed, given Rand's description of the fire as beginning within the ter'angreal its probable hat they did cause light and were thus disliked. Rand's display with the fire sword proves that it is simply light that is the issue.

 

Beyond that, we knwo Moiraine was not channeling beyond the doorway--her bond with Lan was snapped by her being severed. And Lanfears comment about her strength before the finn suggests the same.

 

Also, try to keep in mind that the women destroyed a valued source of trade for the Finns. They arn't genies, they did what they did because of what they gained from it--Moiraine and Lanfear destroyed that source. That in itself speaks to why they were imprisoned.

 

 

[grump]

Moraine knew what was going to happen, she stated she would be thought dead but was not. Since she did not die, the effect on lan have to be placed somewhere else.  I believe she arranged all that happened, including severing the bond. It was probably uncomfortable for her but she knew it needed to be done and did it.  The 2 letters prove she already had a plan in place. Thom's letter proves she saw into what happens in the world of Finns at least 3 different ways or outcomes.  Give her a break, she was the only one who actually knew what was going on that day.

[aevogt]

Lanfear is severed bacause she loses, not contact, with the angreal, but it's location.

 

Channeling while going through the doorway had NO effect.  Rand exits the doorway in Tear while both holding the source, and actively channeling a fire sword.  This is direct evidence that channeling whist going through a doorway does not cause a chenneler to be severed.

 

A channeler does not need to be holding or touching an angreal to use it, but they must know it's exact location in relation to themselves.  That is why Lanfear was severed, Moraine claws it away from her and the surge of the power severed Lanfear.

 

It is possible, I will conceed, that Moraine did something specific with the Power that caused the destruction of the doorframe, but there is nothing in the description as to what, only that she was embracing the source.

 

[Red2111]

the bond between Lan and Moraine didn't snap as soon as she went through the doorway.  Lan doesnt say "she's gone" until the doorway is melted.  because of the way he is looking intently at the door and is still driven to go in after Moiraine says to me that the Bond is there.  because had the Bond already been severed the urge to go to his new Aes Sedia would have out weighed chasing after Moiraine.

 

i agree totally with Grump.  and like he said, her letter to Thom confirmed it.  she even mentions "apologize to lan for me" in it.  she knew well ahead of time what was going to happen and had plans laid for it to fall exactly how events needed to fall for certain outcomes to happen.  while i'm not sure if she was stilled on the other side with the "snakes" thats debatable.  but i think that she wasn't stilled until she was in teh Finn's custody.

 

 

and like i will continue saying until i read a POV that says Lanfear was healed, it's no point to the plot to have her healed when the DO is in play.  and i figure that by this point, if it was a blakc sister that did heal her, RJ would have said so in the books either by a Black sister bragging about or Cyndane mentioning it.

 

and no being "Burnt out" and being "stilled" aren't the same thing.  quote the part in the book if it says different.  from all accounts that were told, only sisters who have been stilled have been healed.  even Rand says that "i feel a bit of remorse for stilling those sisters when i broke free" and that "the wise ones don't hold those sisters on guard because their stilled".  when your stilled theres somethign to re-attach your ability to touch the source (re-read Nyneves discription of healing a stilled woman).  when your severed, no link remains, the ability to channel is litterally burned out of you.  nadda remains to glue back together.  and i believe that only you can burn yourself out by taking in too much of the power; others can still you, but not burn you out. 

 

to me, having Cyndane healed by a member of the BA is along the same instances of people hoping for Sirius alive again in Deathly Hallows.  it would be nice, but serves nothing to the plot except to complicate things more.

 

so if i'm wrong, then prove me wrong.  quote direct quotes form the book that states information against my opinions blankly.  or something that suggests beyond a doubt.

 

and yes i know what Hypocritical means.  its a contradition in terms.  and yes, if you say shes burnt out but then say she was healed, it is a hypocritical statement.  because being 'burnt out' cannot be healed; there is nothing there to heal.

 

 

and also, please quote where it states in the book that one is severed if they loose contact with an angrael they are channeling through.  both myself and bubba disagree with this.

[Paviel]

and also, please quote where it states in the book that one is severed if they loose contact with an angrael they are channeling through.  both myself and bubba disagree with this.

 

It doesn't say that anywhere in particular, but it logically follows from two facts:

 

1. A channeler who uses more of the One Power than he can safely handle risks burning himself out. (Verin warns Nynaeve about this in TGH paperback page 209-210, and no doubt there are other references to this as well.)

 

2. The primary purpose of an angreal is to increase the amount of One Power that a channeler can safely handle. (Moiraine mentions this to Rand in TEOTW paperback page 108.)

[CUBAREY]

To Red211:

hypocritical does not mean a a contradiction in terms. hypocrite is defined as:

a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs. 

2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements. 

Thus a politician who extols family values in public but has an extra-marital affair is a hypocrite and is making a hypocritical statement when he says he champions family values.

 

 

Thus your point between stilling and burning-out is not a hypocritical statement although you are correct that in the literal definition of the words you can not "heal being burned out as their may not be anything to heal.

 

 

 

[Luckers]

Channeling while going through the doorway had NO effect.  Rand exits the doorway in Tear while both holding the source, and actively channeling a fire sword.  This is direct evidence that channeling whist going through a doorway does not cause a chenneler to be severed.

 

Yes, but channeling while falling through a ter'angreal that subsequently destroys itself would do. At least according to everything we've ever been told about the dangers of ter'angreal.

 

the bond between Lan and Moraine didn't snap as soon as she went through the doorway.  Lan doesnt say "she's gone" until the doorway is melted.  because of the way he is looking intently at the door and is still driven to go in after Moiraine says to me that the Bond is there.  because had the Bond already been severed the urge to go to his new Aes Sedia would have out weighed chasing after Moiraine.

 

He's staring at it as if lost, not looking intently. If you are going to infer things, you should at least do it from the actual language. Lan stumbles towards the door, Rand catches him and tells him there is nothing he can do, Lan says that he knows--and he says it hopelessly. He doesn't struggle, only stares at the ter'angreal--and that after saying that he knows there is nothing he can do, hopelessly.

 

and like i will continue saying until i read a POV that says Lanfear was healed, it's no point to the plot to have her healed when the DO is in play.  and i figure that by this point, if it was a blakc sister that did heal her, RJ would have said so in the books either by a Black sister bragging about or Cyndane mentioning it.

 

Why? We've had the POV of one one Black Rebel--Delana, and it was not her. We've seen no others interact, heard none of their thoughts. As for Cyndane, her thought progression never goes near to what happened to her when she was resurrected. We also know she was soulbound, and that is never thought about either.

 

and no being "Burnt out" and being "stilled" aren't the same thing.  quote the part in the book if it says different.  from all accounts that were told, only sisters who have been stilled have been healed.  even Rand says that "i feel a bit of remorse for stilling those sisters when i broke free" and that "the wise ones don't hold those sisters on guard because their stilled".  when your stilled theres somethign to re-attach your ability to touch the source (re-read Nyneves discription of healing a stilled woman).  when your severed, no link remains, the ability to channel is litterally burned out of you.  nadda remains to glue back together.  and i believe that only you can burn yourself out by taking in too much of the power; others can still you, but not burn you out. 

 

Champ, you should really read before posting, because all of this has been covered. Firstly, everyone refers to it as stilling because it was done intentionally to them by Rand--but this is misleading. What Rand actually did was crush weaves they were maintaining and thus over-stressing their abilities to the point that it was seared out of them. Technically, they were burned out because of the strain, not because Rand intentionally set out to sever them from the Source--he did not.

 

But even if he had intended to still them, it was not 'stilling'. We have a clear description from Nynaeve of the weave used to still people. It is a knife-sharp weave, used to slice. None of that is in what Rand did. In crushing their webs at the point they held them in fists of spirit what he did burned them out--in terms of effect, i mean. The results would not have the sliced edged effect like what Nynaeve witnesses in Siuan, Leane or Logain.

 

In terms of the reality what Rand did much like what occurs when women are burned out by ter'angreal. Egwene described it when she touches the broken Access Key in Tanchico--the broken ter'angreal over-stresses her ability. Lanfear implies that it should have burnt her out, or killed her outright--likely the only reason it didn't is because Egwene managed to break it.

 

So, for the interest of this discussion, for all that these women being severed came as a result of someone elses direct action, and thus is termed 'stilling' they were in fact burned out. And please, next time read before posting. I have no problem with you disagreeing, but re-raising these things as if they are some sort of new evidence? That's just rude.

 

to me, having Cyndane healed by a member of the BA is along the same instances of people hoping for Sirius alive again in Deathly Hallows.  it would be nice, but serves nothing to the plot except to complicate things more.

 

What? Thats frankly rediculous. The woman was severed, and needed to be healed. The only ones with that knowledge where the Black Ajah amongst the Rebels. A dream message would make for an easy summons, and the Rebels were already treating where women chose to travel as a private matter known for them alone, so travelling to Shayol Ghoul also becomes a simple matter.

 

You would compare this to a dead man coming back to life in a world were such things are impossible?

 

and yes i know what Hypocritical means.  its a contradition in terms.  and yes, if you say shes burnt out but then say she was healed, it is a hypocritical statement.  because being 'burnt out' cannot be healed; there is nothing there to heal.

 

Champ, hypocracy is not a contradiction in terms. Hypocracy is where a person says one thing, but secretly does something that is in direct contradiction to what they just said. Like a person who rallys against prostitution which employing a prostitute, or a woman who tells her children lying is wrong, but then lies to them. That's hypocrisy.

 

The word i believe you are looking for is oxymoronic. Thats where two things that contradict each other are linked, like wise-fool, or living-dead. Better yet to simply say that it is a 'contradiction in terms'.

 

Of course you're wrong beyond that. There is nothing to prove being burned out cannot be healed--yes, we know it is a more complete process, with the person no longer being able to sense the source at all, but nothing in that says its impossible to heal, or that nothing at all is left--only that more is destroyed than in stilling. You don't really have any basis for such a comment. Especially not in the face of the realities of Sashelle, Ronaille and Irgain.

 

[Red2111]

like i said, i want quotes from the book Lurkers.  all the "evidence" you have pointed out in this saying that what i think is wrong is your assumption of what RJ wrote and is not backed by direct fact.  RJ stated over and over again about them being stilled.  he states this many times through wiseones, the AS themselves and Rand.  he's also suggested through other AS in Salidar that being "Burnt out" cannot be healed because there is nothing to heal. 

 

He's staring at it as if lost, not looking intently. If you are going to infer things, you should at least do it from the actual language. Lan stumbles towards the door, Rand catches him and tells him there is nothing he can do, Lan says that he knows--and he says it hopelessly. He doesn't struggle, only stares at the ter'angreal--and that after saying that he knows there is nothing he can do, hopelessly.

 

yet he doesn't turn away and follow the pull of his new Aes Sedia until the Door Way is melted.  the fact that he is stairing hopelessly at the door way and the onlything holding him back from following after her even though he knows it's helpless to do so is Rand's flows of air.  he knew that she was going to die and didn't want him to follow after, and knew that he was also bonded to another AS, plus his love for Nyneave.  he doesn't state that she is gone, until the doorway is melted and only then does he stop stairing at the door way.  upon sayign those words he immediatley turns to start searching for his new AS.  if the bond would have snapped as Moiraine went through the door way he wouldn't have started to follow after her and would have mentioned something like "I know, i can't feel her, theres nothing i can do".  and instead of watching the door melt, he would have begun starting his journey out for his new AS at once.

 

Why? We've had the POV of one one Black Rebel--Delana, and it was not her. We've seen no others interact, heard none of their thoughts. As for Cyndane, her thought progression never goes near to what happened to her when she was resurrected. We also know she was soulbound, and that is never thought about either.

 

maybe we don't see any other black sisters because Delana is the only one among the rebels, other wise Aran'gar would be using others besides Delana to cause decinsion and confusion among the rebels (like her mission given to Delana)  besides, for a black sister to heal lanfear they would have had to travel to SG.  meaning they would have had to visit it before or spent a month skimming the blight.  as far as we know, even those among the high council in the BA haven't been to SG.  only the forsaken and possibly Taim.

 

Champ, you should really read before posting, because all of this has been covered. Firstly, everyone refers to it as stilling because it was done intentionally to them by Rand--but this is misleading. What Rand actually did was crush weaves they were maintaining and thus over-stressing their abilities to the point that it was seared out of them. Technically, they were burned out because of the strain, not because Rand intentionally set out to sever them from the Source--he did not.

 

But even if he had intended to still them, it was not 'stilling'. We have a clear description from Nynaeve of the weave used to still people. It is a knife-sharp weave, used to slice. None of that is in what Rand did. In crushing their webs at the point they held them in fists of spirit what he did burned them out--in terms of effect, i mean. The results would not have the sliced edged effect like what Nynaeve witnesses in Siuan, Leane or Logain.

 

i'm not posting it as if it's new info, i'm not idotic enough to think that i'm finding stuff in these books that you people (who have read the series more than once over) have not found yet; seeing as the books have been out much longer than i have been readign them.  i'm merely debating what you say, as you are doing to me, with how i veiwed and interpreted what is written.  which is what boards like this is for.  also, i'm not a guy and my nick name is Red; i'd really perfer you to use that instead of other names such as Champ (typically a fond name for boys, of which i'm lacking a part to be ;) ) just as i show you the respect and call you Lurkers instead of sweety or honey.

 

as for it being misleading, he very well could hav been but i doubt it because he refers too many times to them being stilled.  and no evidence of how the sisters acted points to them being anything but stilled.  like i said, as far as i have read, all the evidence point to that only you can burn yourself out and only by drawlign in too much of the power (or even  it couldd be caused by direct contact with a ter'angael whose disigned with the power to burn out the user)  Rand cut them off from the source, exactly the same as being stilled.  from everything that we've heard about being burnt out, it's all cases of self infliction, from drawlign too much of the power.

 

In terms of the reality what Rand did much like what occurs when women are burned out by ter'angreal. Egwene described it when she touches the broken Access Key in Tanchico--the broken ter'angreal over-stresses her ability. Lanfear implies that it should have burnt her out, or killed her outright--likely the only reason it didn't is because Egwene managed to break it.

 

no, Rand severs the knots that are holding him prisioner and breaks through the sheild with blunt force.  he doesn't cause the sisters to "draw in more of the power than they can handle" which is what leads to being burnt out.  he severed the bonds holding him and indirectly severed them from the source

 

So, for the interest of this discussion, for all that these women being severed came as a result of someone elses direct action, and thus is termed 'stilling' they were in fact burned out. And please, next time read before posting. I have no problem with you disagreeing, but re-raising these things as if they are some sort of new evidence? That's just rude.

 

once again i'd like to state that being burnt out is self inflicted, being stilled is the result of someone else cutting you off fromt he source; and that being burnt out cannot be healed becauase there is nothing left in the person to heal. and as i also said, i'm not raising this as if it's new evidence, i'm just stating what i think is the right answer just as you are doing to me.  so by calling me rude for doing this, you are also calling yourself rude.

 

What? Thats frankly rediculous. The woman was severed, and needed to be healed. The only ones with that knowledge where the Black Ajah amongst the Rebels. A dream message would make for an easy summons, and the Rebels were already treating where women chose to travel as a private matter known for them alone, so travelling to Shayol Ghoul also becomes a simple matter.

 

you cannot travel to a place youhave never been, you have to skim the area until you find it and then memorize the place in order to travel to that exact spot.  no where has it said that the forsaken are dreamers, and just because they can enter Tel'aran'rhiod doesn't mean they can enter the space inbetween the dream world and the waking world without the use of an angrael.  RJ never says whether the forsaken use one or not.

 

You would compare this to a dead man coming back to life in a world were such things are impossible?

 

you misunderstand what i'm comparing.  i'm comparing what those two things would do to the plot of each book.  by JKR bringing Sirius back fromt he dead (from the veil) would serve nothing to the plot of the books and only complicate the story further.  as would having Lanfear healed instead of just laying it at the DO's doing.

 

Champ, hypocracy is not a contradiction in terms. Hypocracy is where a person says one thing, but secretly does something that is in direct contradiction to what they just said. Like a person who rallys against prostitution which employing a prostitute, or a woman who tells her children lying is wrong, but then lies to them. That's hypocrisy.

 

The word i believe you are looking for is oxymoronic. Thats where two things that contradict each other are linked, like wise-fool, or living-dead. Better yet to simply say that it is a 'contradiction in terms'.

 

  here agiain i ask you to not use names like 'Champ' with me.  my nickname is Red and as i resepct you by using your choosen nickname i expect the same curtosy.  i've never been good with spellign and grammer and english other than speaking it.  hypocritical seemed to fit it at the time and i apologize for using it in the wrong context.

 

Of course you're wrong beyond that. There is nothing to prove being burned out cannot be healed--yes, we know it is a more complete process, with the person no longer being able to sense the source at all, but nothing in that says its impossible to heal, or that nothing at all is left--only that more is destroyed than in stilling. You don't really have any basis for such a comment. Especially not in the face of the realities of Sashelle, Ronaille and Irgain.

 

and again i'd liek to state RJ says through many people that they are stilled and not burnt out.  what makes me believe that being burnt out cannot be healed is the fact that it is describe as "having the ability to channel being burned out of you" and that you can no longer even sense the source.  with being stilled, you can still sense the source and there is soemthing there to re-attach the person to the source.

 

and also, please quote where it states in the book that one is severed if they loose contact with an angrael they are channeling through.  both myself and bubba disagree with this.

 

It doesn't say that anywhere in particular, but it logically follows from two facts:

 

1. A channeler who uses more of the One Power than he can safely handle risks burning himself out. (Verin warns Nynaeve about this in TGH paperback page 209-210, and no doubt there are other references to this as well.)

 

2. The primary purpose of an angreal is to increase the amount of One Power that a channeler can safely handle. (Moiraine mentions this to Rand in TEOTW paperback page 108.)

 

thank you for the quotes :)  while this suggest greatly that a person can burn themselves out using an angrael, i'm asking how one would be burnt out with an angrael being snatched out of their hand.  say you only channel at level 3, you use an angrael that allows you to channel at level 4.  i come alogn and snatch the angrael out of your hand, forcing you to lose contact with it.  in effect, you should drop back down to channeling at level 3, but feel totally exhuasted on the verge of collapsing from havign it taken away from you so abruptly.  i don't understand how it would cause the person to be burnt out.  please do correct me if i'm wrong.

[Leopoled Boothe]

and i figure that by this point, if it was a blakc sister that did heal her, RJ would have said so in the books either by a Black sister bragging about or Cyndane mentioning it.

 

I wouldn't count on it.  The first time I read TFoH I expected the find out the identity of Asmodean's killer in book six through one of those two methods.  Then when I got books six, well you already know the rest of that story (LOL)  What you are suggesting just wasn't RJ's style, he really liked to keep us guessing.  Keep in mind that the text of WOT never actually states that Osan'gar and Aran'gar are Aginor and Balthamel (though RJ did confirm this when asked directly by a fan) nor that Moridin and Cyndane are Ishameal and Lanfear.  He left enough clues for us to figure these things out but he never right out tells us.  I won't be one bit suprised if we never get an explaination for why Cynade experienced a reduction in power, though if that does turn out to be the case then I think we will be able to safely assume that it was the effect of healing since this is the only presidented way for a person's stregnth in the power to be reduced.

 

 

[aevogt]

From a character POV, Egwene I believe.

 

Paraphrasing

 

"It's hard to tell a novice to proceed slowly when the threat of being burnt out is mitigated by the ability to heal it."

 

The Aes Sedai, or at least Egwene, clearly believe that a woman who has been burnt out can be healed in the same manner that a woman who was severed can be.

 

Now, that's not cut and dried because it's only the opinion of one character but it does point to "burning out" being "healable", even though they are not the same malady.

 

As for severing methodology, Someone came up with a very good bridge analogy to describe the difference between crushing, stilling and burning that I think covers it prety well.  A sharp edge will leave a small cut in the bridge, a blunt instrument will shatter the center of the bridge, and burning it will leave nothing but the abutments on either bank, all of which give a base from which to heal the damage.

[Paviel]

say you only channel at level 3, you use an angrael that allows you to channel at level 4.  i come alogn and snatch the angrael out of your hand, forcing you to lose contact with it.  in effect, you should drop back down to channeling at level 3, but feel totally exhuasted on the verge of collapsing from havign it taken away from you so abruptly.  i don't understand how it would cause the person to be burnt out.  please do correct me if i'm wrong.

 

You're forgetting an important detail: At the time that you snatch the angreal out of my hand, I'm channeling a level 4 amount of One Power. Without that angreal, I cannot safely handle a level 4 amount of One Power. So unless I stop channeling IMMEDIATELY upon losing contact with the angreal, I'm suddenly channeling more of the One Power than I can handle, which is exactly what Verin warned Nynaeve about.

[Mr Ares]

like i said, i want quotes from the book Lurkers.  all the "evidence" you have pointed out in this saying that what i think is wrong is your assumption of what RJ wrote and is not backed by direct fact.  RJ stated over and over again about them being stilled.  he states this many times through wiseones, the AS themselves and Rand.  he's also suggested through other AS in Salidar that being "Burnt out" cannot be healed because there is nothing to heal. 

Why? We've had the POV of one one Black Rebel--Delana, and it was not her. We've seen no others interact, heard none of their thoughts. As for Cyndane, her thought progression never goes near to what happened to her when she was resurrected. We also know she was soulbound, and that is never thought about either.

maybe we don't see any other black sisters because Delana is the only one among the rebels, other wise Aran'gar would be using others besides Delana to cause decinsion and confusion among the rebels (like her mission given to Delana)  besides, for a black sister to heal lanfear they would have had to travel to SG.  meaning they would have had to visit it before or spent a month skimming the blight.  as far as we know, even those among the high council in the BA haven't been to SG.  only the forsaken and possibly Taim.

Your understanding of Travelling is flawed. You must know your start point, not your end point. And in all probability there are some BA sisters beyond Delana in Salidar.

 

also, i'm not a guy and my nick name is Red; i'd really perfer you to use that instead of other names such as Champ (typically a fond name for boys, of which i'm lacking a part to be ;) ) just as i show you the respect and call you Lurkers instead of sweety or honey.

 

Strictly speaking, his name is Luckers, so calling him Lurkers is hardly a huge sign of respect.

 

So, for the interest of this discussion, for all that these women being severed came as a result of someone elses direct action, and thus is termed 'stilling' they were in fact burned out. And please, next time read before posting. I have no problem with you disagreeing, but re-raising these things as if they are some sort of new evidence? That's just rude.

once again i'd like to state that being burnt out is self inflicted, being stilled is the result of someone else cutting you off fromt he source; and that being burnt out cannot be healed becauase there is nothing left in the person to heal. and as i also said, i'm not raising this as if it's new evidence, i'm just stating what i think is the right answer just as you are doing to me.  so by calling me rude for doing this, you are also calling yourself rude.

So you have no evidence to say that burning out can't be healed, and yet despite the point being addressed you carry on saying that it can be? This passes for politeness where you are from? Not addressing the points that are raised against your arguments and carrying on making the same points as if no one has dealt with them? Look at the descriptions. Stilling - sharp weave, cutting. Burning out - too much power, burning ability. What Rand did - crushing ability in fists of spirit, doesn't match previous descriptions of stilling, and the damage caused doesn't sound like the sharp cuts normally associated with stilling. Now, personally I don't see any evidence saying that burn out can't be Healed, and enough to support that it can be. If you have evidence, share it.

What? Thats frankly rediculous. The woman was severed, and needed to be healed. The only ones with that knowledge where the Black Ajah amongst the Rebels. A dream message would make for an easy summons, and the Rebels were already treating where women chose to travel as a private matter known for them alone, so travelling to Shayol Ghoul also becomes a simple matter.

you cannot travel to a place youhave never been, you have to skim the area until you find it and then memorize the place in order to travel to that exact spot.  no where has it said that the forsaken are dreamers, and just because they can enter Tel'aran'rhiod doesn't mean they can enter the space inbetween the dream world and the waking world without the use of an angrael.  RJ never says whether the forsaken use one or not.

You can Travel to places you haven't been, and we see people do it often. Avi going to Seanchan in FOH springs to mind. Plus the Shadow is entirely capable of sending messages to it's servants, dreams or no dreams (and they probably can use the dream method, but you'll need to ask Luckers for a quote on that).

 

You would compare this to a dead man coming back to life in a world were such things are impossible?

you misunderstand what i'm comparing.  i'm comparing what those two things would do to the plot of each book.  by JKR bringing Sirius back fromt he dead (from the veil) would serve nothing to the plot of the books and only complicate the story further.  as would having Lanfear healed instead of just laying it at the DO's doing.

We don't know what the limits of Shai'tan's power are, so we can't say for sure that He can Heal severing. We also know that He has no reason to weaken His servant, it is counterprductive, and the only thing we know of that can do that would be someone of the same sex Healing the severed person in question. As for the plot of the book, bear in mind that this taes place off screen. It isn't hugely important. But we know one answer to be possible (BA does the Healing) and we know the other to be suppored by preciselt nothing (what you say). So where does this unnecessary plot complication come in? Inventing new powers off screen which are only ever used once yet we never see them and there is nothing to support them existing, as opposed to using the existing powers and abilities in the book to do something we know to be possile. Which one overcomplicates the plot?

 

Of course you're wrong beyond that. There is nothing to prove being burned out cannot be healed--yes, we know it is a more complete process, with the person no longer being able to sense the source at all, but nothing in that says its impossible to heal, or that nothing at all is left--only that more is destroyed than in stilling. You don't really have any basis for such a comment. Especially not in the face of the realities of Sashelle, Ronaille and Irgain.

and again i'd liek to state RJ says through many people that they are stilled and not burnt out.  what makes me believe that being burnt out cannot be healed is the fact that it is describe as "having the ability to channel being burned out of you" and that you can no longer even sense the source.  with being stilled, you can still sense the source and there is soemthing there to re-attach the person to the source.

Tell you what, why don't you provide a quote saying that it is impossible for people that have been burned out to be Healed.

[Red2111]

Strictly speaking, his name is Luckers, so calling him Lurkers is hardly a huge sign of respect.

 

on the interenet its a sign of curtousy for one to call the other by his/her choosen name.  this is so even back in the late 90's when chatrooms where the major means of talking to people.  to me, calling me anything other than that where you aren't exactly my friend and where you are calling me rude in the same paragraph is not only rude as well but disrespectful to boot. its the same whay that addressing people you meet as Mr. or Mrs. or by their name IRL instead of saying "Hey bud" to every person you meet, unless ofcourse your parents didn't teach you manners growing up (which in todays society is very possible)

 

So you have no evidence to say that burning out can't be healed, and yet despite the point being addressed you carry on saying that it can be? This passes for politeness where you are from? Not addressing the points that are raised against your arguments and carrying on making the same points as if no one has dealt with them? Look at the descriptions. Stilling - sharp weave, cutting. Burning out - too much power, burning ability. What Rand did - crushing ability in fists of spirit, doesn't match previous descriptions of stilling, and the damage caused doesn't sound like the sharp cuts normally associated with stilling. Now, personally I don't see any evidence saying that burn out can't be Healed, and enough to support that it can be. If you have evidence, share it.

 

just as you are continuing to argue it can be healed, i'm contining to argue that it cant.  this is passes for a debate where i come from, where people argue different sides of the same point.  which, as i stress again, is what boards like this are for.  seeing as there is no instances in the books that state being burnt out cannot be healed, why should i think otherwise unless RJ comes out and directly says it can or gives enough hints to the reader that it can.  all we have that is any sort of hint that being burnt out can be healed is Egwene stating that it will be hard having novices and accepted to take it slow knowing burnt out can be healed.  yet i'c like to argue that she was thinking strickly of Logain, Suan, and Lean who were all stilled and not burnt out.  that and she was also, at that point, having a bad headache and rather tiered as well from not allowing herself enough sleep and from the studies of being Amyrilin.

 

there are no characters that we know 100% have been burnt out, and have been healed.  i still remain to say the all instances where we have learned of people being burnt out have all been self inflicted.  it doesn't fit the exact definition of being stilled ebcause Rand wasn't setting out to Still them.  the cause of being Burnt out is "Taking in too much of the one power"  when Rand breaks out of the box, he doesn't cause the sisters "take in too much of the one power" instead he "severes their weaves with blunt force" and indirectly stilling them.  even the AS themselves, as well as Rand and the Wise Ones all say these three are STILLED.  it's mentioned many times after the fact. so here i am goin to go with RJ's written words over your guys assumed twisting of words.  and like wise, if you have evidence of them being burnt out, share it.

 

You can Travel to places you haven't been, and we see people do it often. Avi going to Seanchan in FOH springs to mind. Plus the Shadow is entirely capable of sending messages to it's servants, dreams or no dreams (and they probably can use the dream method, but you'll need to ask Luckers for a quote on that).

 

no, in PoD's she travels to a SeaFolk island; and even then how can you say she's never been there before.  she's held the shawl for how long?  and she hasn't been trapped to the tower for that whole time either.  chances are she has been there before.  and its been said in a few of the books that with traveling you have to know your beginning and end point.  which is why, in PoD's, the Ashaman with Perrin have to skim ahead to their before they open a gateway, so they know the ground they are opening the gateway on.  thats also why the traveling ground was made in Salidar, so the AS don't have to re-memorize a spot in Salidar for the return and departure every time they travel.

 

We don't know what the limits of Shai'tan's power are, so we can't say for sure that He can Heal severing. We also know that He has no reason to weaken His servant, it is counterprductive, and the only thing we know of that can do that would be someone of the same sex Healing the severed person in question. As for the plot of the book, bear in mind that this taes place off screen. It isn't hugely important. But we know one answer to be possible (BA does the Healing) and we know the other to be suppored by preciselt nothing (what you say). So where does this unnecessary plot complication come in? Inventing new powers off screen which are only ever used once yet we never see them and there is nothing to support them existing, as opposed to using the existing powers and abilities in the book to do something we know to be possile. Which one overcomplicates the plot?

 

yes having a memebr of the BA does complipicate the plot more.  now we have to know who it is, how they learned to heal someone being burnt out, and when they've been to SG before.  opposed to saying the DO did it when he re-made her, that is a bigger complication to the plot.  this being supported by the fact that he is the DO, he can do the impossible which is bring people BACK to life, so seeing as he can bring people back to life why is it so wrong to think he can also connect them back to the source.  he has the ability to tap into the "TRUE POWER" as well as the wheel itself, so compared to that your BA healing her fails miserably and only adds more to the already overwhelemed plot of this book.  i'll ask again, why the need for the BA to have done the healing instead of leaving it at the DO, which would make more sense seeing as he is the DO.

 

as we don't knwo the limits of the DO's power, we can't say that he didn't.  she's just a pwn to him and he has other pwns at this time that are able to do more distruction and are also more powerful than she.  He doesn't need a reason other than "because i can and because you tried to double cross me"  you have to think in terms of the DO himself.  He knows about her deal with Rand, that she intended to use the acess key and Callalandor to come slap him in the face and cross him.  he would also know that her feelings of Rand (or rather LTT) have not changed considering she still refers to him as LTT.  she still loves the man.  if he's the type of DL that i think he is (85% more evil and mean than Voldy) then he'd do it for shits and giggles.  to show her what happens when you do think of trying to cross the DO.  he takes away two of the things she prizes the most, her power and her freedom.  its a penalty for thinking of crossing him, she's still powerful enough to do what needs to be done; yet his point is made well enough that now she will think twice about it.  if you think of it in the aspect of being the DO, it makes sense to me.

 

it doesn't really hurt him any to take away half her power, she's still strong enough to do damage.  besides, shes just a pwn that needed a lesson; he has 6 or 7 other choosen to do his bidding for him that aren't in love with the DR as well as the dread lords and dark friends and BA and Shadar Haran.  weakening her in the power to teach her a lesson is miniscule compared to the forces that he has at his disposal.

 

and if you want to argue that he didn't know, well then i ask you this.  if he didn't know she wasn't planing to turn traitor then why is she now put in a mind trap?  same with Mohagiden (who i might add is the only other forsaken to have helped the other side at this point and remain alive; though it was forced on her.)  why the need for that hold on Lanfear if he didn't know?  the only reason i can see the need for those two to have a mind trap placed on them is because their a liability.  Mohegidein allowed herself to be captured then told her captures many useful weaves.  Lanfear was goign to try to destroy him with the DR.  with the mind trap placed on them, all Ishamael has to do is crush those viles and they are no more of a liability because the dead can't talk.  and maybe in order to place the trap on Lanfear she needed to be at that strength otherwise she could break free of it.

 

Tell you what, why don't you provide a quote saying that it is impossible for people that have been burned out to be Healed.

 

since you are so adament there is proof beyond a doubt in these books why don't you provide a quote saying "being burnt out" can be healed.

 

 

[Luckers]

like i said, i want quotes from the book Lurkers.

 

Firstly... Lurkers...?

 

Secondly champ, what you've done is suggested theories--alot of which are possible--what I've done is to state that they arn't fact, and offer the suggestive evidence that supports that. Your the one making statements, and thus the one needing proof. The 'quotes' you're asking for neith exist, nor are nessasary. The unilaterlism of your comments is what i am denying, and beyond that the idea that they are even most likely. You want to suggest either, then it is you that needs quotes--and trust me, you won't find them.

 

all the "evidence" you have pointed out in this saying that what i think is wrong is your assumption of what RJ wrote and is not backed by direct fact.  RJ stated over and over again about them being stilled.  he states this many times through wiseones, the AS themselves and Rand.  he's also suggested through other AS in Salidar that being "Burnt out" cannot be healed because there is nothing to heal.  

 

He also stated time and again how casual opinion cannot be relied upon--and unlike your comment, he ACTUALLY stated that, personally. The Wise Ones, Rand, the Aes Sedai all view it as stilling because it was done intentionally to them by a person, but the reality is very different. That, by the way, is not interpretation... the description is factually divergent from Nynaeve's description of the Knife Sharp Weave--It. Was. Not. Stilling... Fact.

 

yet he doesn't turn away and follow the pull of his new Aes Sedia until the Door Way is melted.  the fact that he is stairing hopelessly at the door way and the onlything holding him back from following after her even though he knows it's helpless to do so is Rand's flows of air.

 

Wrong. His comment is directly a comment on Rand's comment that she is gone. He knows it. And of course he didn't turn immediately to his new Aes Sedai--Moiraine wasn't a piece of trash to him, add that to the Death-Absortion and of course he was focused on her 'death'.

 

he knew that she was going to die and didn't want him to follow after, and knew that he was also bonded to another AS, plus his love for Nyneave.  

 

Umm. Evidence? She disapears. He stumbles toward the ter'angreal--stumbles!--Rand holds him, says there is nothing he can do, he acknowledges that, and stares hopelessly. The bond is snapped.

 

 

 

he doesn't state that she is gone, until the doorway is melted and only then does he stop stairing at the door way.  upon sayign those words he immediatley turns to start searching for his new AS.  if the bond would have snapped as Moiraine went through the door way he wouldn't have started to follow after her and would have mentioned something like "I know, i can't feel her, theres nothing i can do".  and instead of watching the door melt, he would have begun starting his journey out for his new AS at once.

 

Wrong. He acknowledges immediately that she is gone. He didn't try and follow her, he stumbled towards the door--in shock. And again, he does immediately acknowledge there is nothing her can do--its a direct immediate statement. And of course he watched the door melt, his new bond doesn't overide the effects of his bond snapping, the Death Absortion--much less his personal respect and friendship for Moiraine.

 

maybe we don't see any other black sisters because Delana is the only one among the rebels

 

Proof please. Frankly thats rediculous, no Black sisters amongst the 300 rebels... that, you need direct proof to even suggest.

 

other wise Aran'gar would be using others besides Delana to cause decinsion and confusion among the rebels (like her mission given to Delana)  

 

Certainly, it's highly probable that she did that.

 

besides, for a black sister to heal lanfear they would have had to travel to SG.  meaning they would have had to visit it before or spent a month skimming the blight.  as far as we know, even those among the high council in the BA haven't been to SG.  only the forsaken and possibly Taim.

 

What? Skimming requires no more than knowledge of a position on a map--hardly the effort of months--but they probably Travelled there--which requires only knowledge of your beginning positions, which requires maybe an hour to learn.

 

i'm merely debating what you say, as you are doing to me, with how i veiwed and interpreted what is written.

 

Then debate what we say. All the oppositions of that post were already stated in this thread alone, yet you blithely stated them as if they are some form of new point.

 

also, i'm not a guy and my nick name is Red; i'd really perfer you to use that instead of other names such as Champ (typically a fond name for boys, of which i'm lacking a part to be  ) just as i show you the respect and call you Lurkers instead of sweety or honey.

 

My name is Luckers, and I use Champ as a name for boys or girls, but as you'd prefer i didn't, sure.

 

as for it being misleading, he very well could hav been but i doubt it because he refers too many times to them being stilled.  and no evidence of how the sisters acted points to them being anything but stilled.  like i said, as far as i have read, all the evidence point to that only you can burn yourself out and only by drawlign in too much of the power (or even  it couldd be caused by direct contact with a ter'angael whose disigned with the power to burn out the user)  Rand cut them off from the source, exactly the same as being stilled.  from everything that we've heard about being burnt out, it's all cases of self infliction, from drawlign too much of the power

 

Re-read my post. I directly comment on what you've apparently not read.

 

no, Rand severs the knots that are holding him prisioner and breaks through the sheild with blunt force.  he doesn't cause the sisters to "draw in more of the power than they can handle" which is what leads to being burnt out.  he severed the bonds holding him and indirectly severed them from the source

 

No, buddy, he crushes them in flows of spirit. It's directly stated... Sorry.

 

once again i'd like to state that being burnt out is self inflicted, being stilled is the result of someone else cutting you off fromt he source; and that being burnt out cannot be healed becauase there is nothing left in the person to heal. and as i also said, i'm not raising this as if it's new evidence, i'm just stating what i think is the right answer just as you are doing to me.  so by calling me rude for doing this, you are also calling yourself rude.

 

I stated that you were being rude for making totalitarian statements with no evidence--and you are. Nothing sustains that you cant sustain the same damage as being burnt out from the direct action of another person, so you stating it again is, well, silly. Just the same nothing sustains that being burnt out leaves nothing to be healed--the evidence only purports that the damage is much greater than in stilling, not that it leaves nothing to heal.

 

You wanna state it as your opinion, do so. Clearly.

 

you misunderstand what i'm comparing.  i'm comparing what those two things would do to the plot of each book.  by JKR bringing Sirius back fromt he dead (from the veil) would serve nothing to the plot of the books and only complicate the story further.  as would having Lanfear healed instead of just laying it at the DO's doing.

 

... Ok... why? Nothing suggests that the Dark One is capable of that, plus we know she was severed when she fell through the ter'angreal... why precisely does it not aid the plot to have her healed? and why, subsequent to that, would not RJ have the only group of people able to heal her do it, when such is easy.

 

 here agiain i ask you to not use names like 'Champ' with me.  my nickname is Red and as i resepct you by using your choosen nickname i expect the same curtosy.  i've never been good with spellign and grammer and english other than speaking it.  hypocritical seemed to fit it at the time and i apologize for using it in the wrong context.

 

I don't mean anything by it... i use 'champ' and 'buddy' and 'neighbour' in my normal speak--it just comes out. It's actually just an attempt on behalf--however unintentionally--to be friendly, because i know i tend to be caustic without meaning to be.

 

and again i'd liek to state RJ says through many people that they are stilled and not burnt out.  what makes me believe that being burnt out cannot be healed is the fact that it is describe as "having the ability to channel being burned out of you" and that you can no longer even sense the source.  with being stilled, you can still sense the source and there is soemthing there to re-attach the person to the source.

 

RJ doesn't say it, characters do, and a massive part of his writing is that the characters get confused. Massive part. Against the realities of the description it just doesn't stand up. I'm sorry.

 

And as i said, i acknowledge that the description suggests that more damage occurs with burning out than stilling--but nothing in that sustains your comments, thus they come accross as unilateral, and evoke the degree of response they have.

 

If you want to sustain such a position, do so by all means--but phrase it 'I think burning out can't be healed because...' rather thand 'once again, burning out cannot be healed because...'.

 

There is evidence against you, and the nature of such a comment is simply arrogant--and i know, im a very arrogant person. We recognise our own. :)

[Luckers]

on the interenet its a sign of curtousy for one to call the other by his/her choosen name.  this is so even back in the late 90's when chatrooms where the major means of talking to people.  to me, calling me anything other than that where you aren't exactly my friend and where you are calling me rude in the same paragraph is not only rude as well but disrespectful to boot. its the same whay that addressing people you meet as Mr. or Mrs. or by their name IRL instead of saying "Hey bud" to every person you meet, unless ofcourse your parents didn't teach you manners growing up (which in todays society is very possible)

 

Collowuial addresses between strangers is a similarily pre-established form of politeness.

 

And its Luckers. With a C. Luckers.

 

just as you are continuing to argue it can be healed, i'm contining to argue that it cant.

 

No, you are stating it. Without any addressal of the points raised, you have stated it.

 

this is passes for a debate where i come from, where people argue different sides of the same point.  which, as i stress again, is what boards like this are for.  seeing as there is no instances in the books that state being burnt out cannot be healed, why should i think otherwise unless RJ comes out and directly says it can or gives enough hints to the reader that it can.

 

You shouldn't. But that there isn't proof enough to discredit your arguments is not basis for what you've done.

 

all we have that is any sort of hint that being burnt out can be healed is Egwene stating that it will be hard having novices and accepted to take it slow knowing burnt out can be healed.

 

And, of course, that Ronaille, Sashelle and Irgain were by description burnt out, and yet healed. Oh, and then there is Cyndane.

 

yet i'c like to argue that she was thinking strickly of Logain, Suan, and Lean who were all stilled and not burnt out.  that and she was also, at that point, having a bad headache and rather tiered as well from not allowing herself enough sleep and from the studies of being Amyrilin.

 

Fair enough. argue that.

 

no, in PoD's she travels to a SeaFolk island; and even then how can you say she's never been there before.  she's held the shawl for how long?  and she hasn't been trapped to the tower for that whole time either.  chances are she has been there before.  and its been said in a few of the books that with traveling you have to know your beginning and end point.  which is why, in PoD's, the Ashaman with Perrin have to skim ahead to their before they open a gateway, so they know the ground they are opening the gateway on.  thats also why the traveling ground was made in Salidar, so the AS don't have to re-memorize a spot in Salidar for the return and departure every time they travel.

 

He was speaking of Aviendha, not Alviarin. She travels to Seanchan without ever having been there before. You want other evidence though? Nynaeve Travels to World End, and we know she was never there before. Beyond that we have countless descriptions that show this.

 

And you are quite wrong, Travelling requires only knowledge of your point of origin. Skimming requires knowledge (though seemingly less) of your destination. Perrin has them Travel ahead (they never skim) to scout. The Travelling Ground was established to protect people from the knife-sharp web of a gateway. Egwene herself states that none of the Aes Sedai would be able to travel out each night given the time required to learn a point of origin had the discovery of Skimming not been made.

 

now we have to know who it is

 

Why?

 

how they learned to heal someone being burnt out

 

From Nynaeve, along with the rest of the Rebels.

 

and when they've been to SG before

 

completely unnessary, as they'd simply travel there.

 

opposed to saying the DO did it when he re-made her, that is a bigger complication to the plot.  this being supported by the fact that he is the DO, he can do the impossible which is bring people BACK to life, so seeing as he can bring people back to life why is it so wrong to think he can also connect them back to the source.  he has the ability to tap into the "TRUE POWER" as well as the wheel itself, so compared to that your BA healing her fails miserably and only adds more to the already overwhelemed plot of this book.  i'll ask again, why the need for the BA to have done the healing instead of leaving it at the DO, which would make more sense seeing as he is the DO.

 

That he can bring people... umm... 'BACK' to life does not speak to this. He can achieve many things, yet there are clear limits to his power, and nothing to suggest or sustain your idea. Furthermore, he does not have the ability to tap into the... um... 'TRUE POWER'. He is the source of it. If your gonna argue a point, at least do it properly.

 

And the need... again, the woman had been severed, she needed to be healed, they are the only people capable of doing it. Need met by reality. Sorry cha--Red.

 

as we don't knwo the limits of the DO's power, we can't say that he didn't.  she's just a pwn to him and he has other pwns at this time that are able to do more distruction and are also more powerful than she.  He doesn't need a reason other than "because i can and because you tried to double cross me"  you have to think in terms of the DO himself.  He knows about her deal with Rand, that she intended to use the acess key and Callalandor to come slap him in the face and cross him.  he would also know that her feelings of Rand (or rather LTT) have not changed considering she still refers to him as LTT.  she still loves the man.  if he's the type of DL that i think he is (85% more evil and mean than Voldy) then he'd do it for shits and giggles.  to show her what happens when you do think of trying to cross the DO.  he takes away two of the things she prizes the most, her power and her freedom.  its a penalty for thinking of crossing him, she's still powerful enough to do what needs to be done; yet his point is made well enough that now she will think twice about it.  if you think of it in the aspect of being the DO, it makes sense to me.

 

Sorry, but that flies directly in the face of the Dark Ones stated appreciation of the strength of his Chosen? Next?

 

it doesn't really hurt him any to take away half her power, she's still strong enough to do damage.  besides, shes just a pwn that needed a lesson; he has 6 or 7 other choosen to do his bidding for him that aren't in love with the DR as well as the dread lords and dark friends and BA and Shadar Haran.  weakening her in the power to teach her a lesson is miniscule compared to the forces that he has at his disposal.

 

Firstly he didn't take away half her power. Secondly it does hurt him--she was soulbound, and thus under his complete control. Ergo weakening her weakens his tool. And yet again, his appreciation for his Second Agers speaks against all that.

 

All already stated.

 

since you are so adament there is proof beyond a doubt in these books why don't you provide a quote saying "being burnt out" can be healed.

 

Not nessasary. You were the one that made the unilateral comment, the burden of proof is on you, no Mr Ares.

 

That being said... Sashelle, Irgain and Ronaille. Oh, and Cyndane.

[Red2111]

i dont apprecaite the furhter disrespect you have shown me by not only continuing to call me champ after i've asked you twice not to; but then to do so jokingly.  while my calling you "lurkers" was a simple typo and i do apologize for that, your's was a blantant form of disrespect.  seeing as you are a memebr of staff, it not only reflects poorly you, but also on the rest of your staff as well.  and if that is the respect that you show to people IRL then i feel even more sorry for you as well.  as a result of your actions on this issue i have sent in a complaint about you to the admins.  i'm also a staff memeber on a few other sites and none of us would accept the behavior you are showing towards me on this issue; and the other boards i am a member of would also not tolirate such disrespect towards its members.

 

that being said.  i am only arguing what my interpretation of the book is.  fromwhat i've read, i believe that being burnt out is not only slef inflicted, but a result of drawing in too much of the One Power than you can handle.  that when you are "burnt out" you can no longer sense the source, and your ability to channel is seared out of you leaving nothing left to be healed because your connection to the source is no longer there.

 

where as being stilled is what another person does to you (Rand did it to them)

 

  An instant of regret that it was not Galina or Erain he had stilled--he was not sure he had intended to do that; Lews Therin had gone on at length about how he intended to sever every on of them that had imprisioned him;

 

...he seized at those three soft points' date=' crushing them ruthlessly in fists on Spirit.[/quote']

 

and i believe Spirit is the weave they use to Still someone.  i've looked through Suian getting stilled and she never mentioned it, though it's probably mentioned what weave and element is used to still someone. 

 

If spirit is used, then its safe to assume that while its not a clean slice, what Rand did was a primative and more blunt form of Stilling.  the fact that it is a man stilling women could also come into play as well, seeing as the only exapmles of stilling we have to go by is women stilling women and women stilling men.  it maybe that because this stilling is done with Siadin, it is a more uncontrolled and jagged cut; seeing as Saidin is a more uncontrolled and volient side of the Power.

 

 

as for Lanfear being stilled or burnt out, we have no evidence of that happening either.  all we do know is that her and Moiraine went throught eh ter'angrael and she was re-born again with less power.  whether it was that stilled and healed by a BA memeber or one of the forsaken; or she was stilled and healed by the DO or the DO reduced her power as punishment are all possible choices because ther is no clear cut proof to point to one more than the other.

 

i still say that to me it makes perfect sense why the DO would take away some of her power.  seeing that she is still strong enough to do the damage he needs, taking away her power is hurting her where it hurts the most and teaching her the biggest lesson that way.  you disagree, fine; i also disagree with throwing in a memember of the BA to heal her when the DO can easily do it himself.  while he's not all powerful, the FACT that he can bring someone back to the dead (which is impossible for any Aes Sedia to do) is suggestive that healing a person from being stilled or even burnt out is more than possible for him.  and in essence of the plot, would make more sense and be less complicated.

 

as for Traveling.  from what i have read i had the impression and still do, that you have to know the destination well enough in order to open a gateway there.  though you are right about Avendha, she did travel to the Seanchan without having even been there; but she also didn't knwo she was opening a gateway as well if you recall and is lucky she didn't end up opening a gateway over the ocean.  i guess inorder to Travel you don't need to know the destination, but it is WISE to know your destination so you don't kill someone by opening a gateway ontop of them, or open on over a 20 foot drop or over the ocean.  and by these conditions i will further suggest that eventually a rule to being taught the weave to travel will be to know your destination.  but this is just speculation about the rule of course.

[Mr Ares]

that being said.  i am only arguing what my interpretation of the book is.  fromwhat i've read, i believe that being burnt out is not only slef inflicted, but a result of drawing in too much of the One Power than you can handle.  that when you are "burnt out" you can no longer sense the source, and your ability to channel is seared out of you leaving nothing left to be healed because your connection to the source is no longer there.

 

where as being stilled is what another person does to you (Rand did it to them).

We know that you are arguing your interpretation. We are pointing out that said interpretation is supported by nothing. But a thought has arisen in my mind. Burning out is done to oneself by drawing too much of the power (by your interpretation), while stilling is done to one by a third party (also by your interpretation), correct? Yet the theory put forward, that it was the destruction of the ter'angreal (ter'angreal are dangerous when mishandled at the best of times, so we are warned, and this was far from the best of times) is neither. If anything it is surely closer to stilling than burning out, if we consider the doorway to be a third party - it is not something they did to themselves as a result of drawing too much power, at any rate, so therefore they were not burnt out but stilled, correct? So where is the problem? They were stilled and Cyndane was Healed from that, and you can hardly argue that that is impossible given that we have seen it done.

 

 

as for Lanfear being stilled or burnt out, we have no evidence of that happening either.  all we do know is that her and Moiraine went throught eh ter'angrael and she was re-born again with less power.  whether it was that stilled and healed by a BA memeber or one of the forsaken; or she was stilled and healed by the DO or the DO reduced her power as punishment are all possible choices because ther is no clear cut proof to point to one more than the other.

 

i still say that to me it makes perfect sense why the DO would take away some of her power.  seeing that she is still strong enough to do the damage he needs, taking away her power is hurting her where it hurts the most and teaching her the biggest lesson that way.  you disagree, fine; i also disagree with throwing in a memember of the BA to heal her when the DO can easily do it himself.  while he's not all powerful, the FACT that he can bring someone back to the dead (which is impossible for any Aes Sedia to do) is suggestive that healing a person from being stilled or even burnt out is more than possible for him.  and in essence of the plot, would make more sense and be less complicated.

So it makes perfect sense for Shai'tan to reduce the effectiveness of one of His tools to no gain to Himself after already punishing her with the mindtrap? Doesn't sound like it. Sounds more like doing that would be Him shooting Himself in the foot (do you think that shooting yourself in the foot is a good idea? Try it.) and even if all that results is a negligible flesh wound, that is still hardly a compelling reason to do it. But what if that flesh wound gets infected and you lose the foot because of it? A bit more of a blow, I would say. The law of unintended consequences. Unfortunately for the Light, you are not in charge of the Shadow, as you would no doubt make their job much easier. She has already been hit where it hurts the most - she is leashed. Anything beyond that is needless. Furthermore, it is out of character:

Week 15 Question: What does the Dark One view as the worst punishment he can inflict on his minions: Killing them as painfully as possible? Balefire? Mindtrap? Being continually resurrected to suffer at his hand for eternity? Something we haven't seen yet?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The Dark One doesn't care about his minions sufficiently to invest much time in their punishment except as it serves to correct their behavior or as object lesson to others, nor is there much in the way of gradation. Simple failure and outright betrayal might be punished equally, or one might result in death and the other in becoming an object lesson or in something else. (The mindtrap, by the way, could be called an object lesson only to the one so trapped; remember, none of the Forsaken know who is mindtrapped except Moridin and those who are trapped.) The decision, death or object lesson or something else, normally would be simply a matter of whether or not he believed there was any point to an object lesson and/or whether or not he felt there was really any further use in the individual. Or, for that matter, made for reasons unknowable to a human mind. Remember, the Dark One is NOT human and thinking of him in human terms just doesn't work.

 

But he also operates under a constraint that did not exist in the Age of Legends. At that time, about 3% of the population could learn to channel to some extent, though not all chose to -- the training program took time, and being able to channel carried with it certain obligations that not everyone wanted to undertake -- but that still meant there were, at a minimum, hundreds of thousands of people in the world who could channel, and more likely millions. A large pool of possible recruits. Break a tool or decide it isn't working right and throw it out, because there is an endless supply of similar tools waiting on the shelf. That might be said to have been his attitude. In the here-and-now of the books, that figure is about 1%, and of that 1%, very, very few have any idea that they could learn to channel, much less have any training at all. Here-and-now, the pool of possible recruits is tiny.

 

Also, while the Forsaken themselves have realized that these primitives have discovered how to do things with the Power that they themselves cannot, or perhaps can once they learn how but never dreamed of doing until they found that the weaves existed here-and-now, they still think of people in the here-and-now as primitives, and their attitudes filter through to the Dark One, who believes that his people from the age of Legends are in all practical ways better -- for which read better trained, more capable, and thus better able to serve him efficiently and effectively -- than the people of the present time. And he is right. In a way. They are certainly better trained, with a much wider knowledge, at least in some areas. Some of their skills are absolutely useless in the society they are forced to live in. Aginor was a genius in biology and genetics, but in this world, he had no way to make the tools to make the tools to make the tools…. Well, you get the idea. Pity the poor chip designer dropped into the seventeenth century.

 

In any event, the Dark One tries to conserve his resources, using and reusing those he might have killed himself, or ordered killed, in a time where there were thousands to equal them.

Nothing about that supports tht He is likely to impair her strength, quite the reverse.

 

Furthermore, we also don't know that Shai'tan can easily do anything like Healing her. we don't know if He knows any form of Healing. We don't know what the effec of attempting to use the True Power to Heal severing would be - it might be impossible. We don't know what loss or gain of strength might possibly result. In short we are dealing with far more unknowns than it is reasonable to do so given that we have a perfect know in using saidar to Heal her - that is the only thing we know that could cause her loss of strength. Knowledge beats assumptions. So the overwhelmingly most likely option is thus established as they were severed and Cyndane was Healed by a woman. A theory backed up by evidence, reason and Mr Ares. What more could you want? What holes are there? How can you fail to be won round?

[Luckers]

i am only arguing what my interpretation of the book is.

 

Except your not arguing, you are stating as fact. The mode of your comments don't allow any room for interpretation--you state what you think to be the case as the case. Surely you can't be shocked that your unilateral comments about what is the case, which are based only on your own opinion, are met with disdain, or even outright anger?

 

fromwhat i've read, i believe that being burnt out is not only slef inflicted, but a result of drawing in too much of the One Power than you can handle.  that when you are "burnt out" you can no longer sense the source, and your ability to channel is seared out of you leaving nothing left to be healed because your connection to the source is no longer there.

 

Fine. State it as what you have read--as your opinion. People will disagree with your--for instance we know as fact that other things can cause being burned out than drawing on too much of the power--and suggest alternatives--like that we have no evidence that sustains that burning out leaves nothing to be healed, only that it is more destructive thand being stilled--but they won't jump all over you as we have.

 

where as being stilled is what another person does to you (Rand did it to them)

 

And your thoughts about what we have already stated about that reality are...?

 

and i believe Spirit is the weave they use to Still someone.  i've looked through Suian getting stilled and she never mentioned it, though it's probably mentioned what weave and element is used to still someone. 

 

It is, but many things can be woven with spirit, and as ive stated many times the web Rand used does not match the weave of stilling as described by Nynaeve. Irgain, Sashelle and Ronaille were not stilled.

 

If spirit is used, then its safe to assume that while its not a clean slice, what Rand did was a primative and more blunt form of Stilling.

 

Why?

 

fact that it is a man stilling women could also come into play as well, seeing as the only exapmles of stilling we have to go by is women stilling women and women stilling men.  it maybe that because this stilling is done with Siadin, it is a more uncontrolled and jagged cut; seeing as Saidin is a more uncontrolled and volient side of the Power.

 

Except we witness shielding which is exactly similar in circumstance. Thus, as the weaves are directly stated as being extensions of each other its unlikely. Furthermore its doubtful women form weaves for men to 'crush' when they need to be stilled.

 

as for Lanfear being stilled or burnt out, we have no evidence of that happening either.  all we do know is that her and Moiraine went throught eh ter'angrael and she was re-born again with less power.  whether it was that stilled and healed by a BA memeber or one of the forsaken; or she was stilled and healed by the DO or the DO reduced her power as punishment are all possible choices because ther is no clear cut proof to point to one more than the other.

 

So, two channelers fall through a ter'angreal that destroys itself--and arn't burnt out? From there we have the fact that in that process Moiraines bond is snapped, a result that only occurs from being severed from the source. Then we have the fact that both women are imprisoned by the Finns for some considerable time--despite the fact that the power works against them easily. Then we have Cyndane appearing with a decreased strenth, again something that we've not see without severing.

 

You are quite correct, we have no evidence of them being severed at all.

 

As for the Dark One healing them--that we do have no evidence for, and furthermore him healing her to a weaker degree is silly--he has he soulbound, and beyond that he only weakens himself by weakening her, and he's shown his position on that quite clearly.

 

as for Traveling.  from what i have read i had the impression and still do, that you have to know the destination well enough in order to open a gateway there.  though you are right about Avendha, she did travel to the Seanchan without having even been there; but she also didn't knwo she was opening a gateway as well if you recall and is lucky she didn't end up opening a gateway over the ocean.  i guess inorder to Travel you don't need to know the destination, but it is WISE to know your destination so you don't kill someone by opening a gateway ontop of them, or open on over a 20 foot drop or over the ocean.  and by these conditions i will further suggest that eventually a rule to being taught the weave to travel will be to know your destination.  but this is just speculation about the rule of course.

 

Possibly. Its unknown the degree to which knowledge of your destination is nessasary--yet the exactness of the endgate in every case we have seen suggests it is not nessasary--we see not such inaccuracies except in Sammael's gateways for the shaido, in which he clearly states that he was throwing groups wherever. And its more than Aviendha. Nynaeve with Worlds End--exact. Elayne with north of Ebou Dar--exact.  Neald and Grady's various gateways, with especially the first in ghealdin. exact. In no case do they know specifically their height above sea level or any of the rest. A rough idea of destination added to knowledge of the origen, that's all thats needed with Traveling.

[Red2111]

We know that you are arguing your interpretation. We are pointing out that said interpretation is supported by nothing. But a thought has arisen in my mind. Burning out is done to oneself by drawing too much of the power (by your interpretation), while stilling is done to one by a third party (also by your interpretation), correct? Yet the theory put forward, that it was the destruction of the ter'angreal (ter'angreal are dangerous when mishandled at the best of times, so we are warned, and this was far from the best of times) is neither. If anything it is surely closer to stilling than burning out, if we consider the doorway to be a third party - it is not something they did to themselves as a result of drawing too much power, at any rate, so therefore they were not burnt out but stilled, correct? So where is the problem? They were stilled and Cyndane was Healed from that, and you can hardly argue that that is impossible given that we have seen it done.

 

i addressed that i believed that it could be caused by a ter'angrael in a previous comment.

and no evidence of how the sisters acted points to them being anything but stilled.  like i said, as far as i have read, all the evidence point to that only you can burn yourself out and only by drawlign in too much of the power (or even  it couldd be caused by direct contact with a ter'angael whose disigned with the power to burn out the user)

also if you read in the book why a ter'angrael burns you out, it's "Because you draw too much of the one power than you can handle"  and also, seeing as it's an object that the person is using, such object throeritically can't be called a "third person"

 

it would be like a person stickign there hand on a stove and getting burned, versus another person comming in and placing the first persons hand on the stove to get burned.  if the first person is using coooking with a pan and accidently touches the burner, it's still their own fault for getting burned, it's still self inflicted.

 

stove=power

cooking pan= ter'angrael

 

So it makes perfect sense for Shai'tan to reduce the effectiveness of one of His tools to no gain to Himself after already punishing her with the mindtrap? Doesn't sound like it. Sounds more like doing that would be Him shooting Himself in the foot (do you think that shooting yourself in the foot is a good idea? Try it.) and even if all that results is a negligible flesh wound, that is still hardly a compelling reason to do it. But what if that flesh wound gets infected and you lose the foot because of it? A bit more of a blow, I would say. The law of unintended consequences. Unfortunately for the Light, you are not in charge of the Shadow, as you would no doubt make their job much easier. She has already been hit where it hurts the most - she is leashed. Anything beyond that is needless. Furthermore, it is out of character.  Nothing about that supports tht He is likely to impair her strength, quite the reverse.

 

Furthermore, we also don't know that Shai'tan can easily do anything like Healing her. we don't know if He knows any form of Healing. We don't know what the effec of attempting to use the True Power to Heal severing would be - it might be impossible. We don't know what loss or gain of strength might possibly result. In short we are dealing with far more unknowns than it is reasonable to do so given that we have a perfect know in using saidar to Heal her - that is the only thing we know that could cause her loss of strength. Knowledge beats assumptions. So the overwhelmingly most likely option is thus established as they were severed and Cyndane was Healed by a woman. A theory backed up by evidence, reason and Mr Ares. What more could you want? What holes are there? How can you fail to be won round?

 

while you make a good point in it would be hurting himself doing so (after reading the quote from RJ) but there is no evidence other than her diminished strength to suggest she was healed.  and i'm of the opinion that if RJ would have had a BA member heal her we would have also had a point in the book where such memeber boasts about it in her mind, about how useful she was to the DO and so on. 

 

to me, it makes much more sense to just say the DO did it.  and what makes healing a person more harder than bringing them back to life?  if anything it's brining a person back to life that is much harder than healing someone.

 

and i'm not even suggesting now (because you guys are right, the DO is the source of the True Power) that the DO channeled to do it.  we'v been lead to think that the reason why the DO is trapped in the first place is because he can reach out and touh the pattern and re-make the world in his own image.  that he can touch the pattern itself. 

 

to me, seeing as he has brought back members of the forsaken, suggests that he has direct influence and contact with their threads after they die. (unless Balefire is used because then the thread is burnt out of the pattern and no longer exists; reason why Be'lal and Rahvin can't be reborn)  we see that he does, infact have this ability because Osan'gar and Aran'gar are re-born into the pattern.  so instead of bringing Lanfear back to life and having her healed, why is it so wrong to assume that instead, the DO patched her thread with his magical duct tape (because in reality duct tape is wonderful and holds the universe together ;) lol) and as a result lowered her strength.

 

though i still like the idea of it being extra punishment for lanfear, though after reading the thing from RJ you guys are right it isn't the DO's m.o. but i still refuse to believe the involvement of a BA member is needed.

 

also here is another point i'd like to suggest.  maybe lanfears decreased strength is a result of her bargin with the fins.  maybe for escape, the only price she could pay was to give them some of her life; and the finns being who they are took her life as well because it allowed her escape.  we know the type of creatures they are, and from my memory of matt's encounter with them, such a suggestion is not at all above them.  theres nothing to suggest that Lanfear had every had dealings with the Finn's before.

 

Except your not arguing, you are stating as fact. The mode of your comments don't allow any room for interpretation--you state what you think to be the case as the case. Surely you can't be shocked that your unilateral comments about what is the case, which are based only on your own opinion, are met with disdain, or even outright anger?

 

if you've noticed, the only time i've gotten remotely angery is by your outright disrespect towards me and calling me by that pet name "champ" on the previous page.  other than that i've shown no hostility towards arguing over what i think is right as far as in this series.  liek i said before, boards like this are made for discussing such points as this.  and i will further add that no one will always agree on the same points, which is why said discussions are held in the first place.  heck, theres still people out there who believe DD is alive; even after DH was released and even after JKR came out and said "No he's dead i apologize for making the website ddisnotdead.com useless" before the release of DH.  even so, when new members came onto the site and argued what we believed as fact, we appeased them and debated with them until we were running in circles, then when a clear consensus couldn't be reached we, agreed to disagree.  but we never called the members rude or such names for thinking the way they did and bringing up a discussion we've already discussed time and time again because we were happy to have new people on the board so late in the series that could also contribute to different parts of the site other than discussing the book.

 

Fine. State it as what you have read--as your opinion. People will disagree with your--for instance we know as fact that other things can cause being burned out than drawing on too much of the power

 

and here i'm going to ask you again to quote in the book where it says or suggests one can be burnt out by any other means than drawlign in too much of the power.  by all accounts we are told that is exactly what leads to the result of being burnt out. quote one example from teh books that says "so and so was burnt out" that wasn't a case of self-infliction. the three AS and Cyndane arent examples of this.  theres no clear cut point that Cyndane was either stilled or burnt out as we're not told that she was, and we are told numerous times by the three AS, the wise ones, other AS and Rand that they were Stilled.

 

where as being stilled is what another person does to you (Rand did it to them)

 

And your thoughts about what we have already stated about that reality are...?

 

that being burnt out is one caused by self-infliction and being stilled is the result of a third parties doing.  i can't say it any more clear cut than that.

 

It is, but many things can be woven with spirit, and as ive stated many times the web Rand used does not match the weave of stilling as described by Nynaeve. Irgain, Sashelle and Ronaille were not stilled.

 

Nynaeve has never tried to heal a person who has been stilled with Saidin, only with Siadar.  by all accounts of what were told, the two are polar opposites.  where as Saidin in a raging sea trying to ripe control out of your hands and you have to force it to surrender to you, Saidar is a peaceful river whom you have to surrender to.  even the weaves used in Saidin are a rougher version than those used for the same thing with Saidar.  take Flinns seperating the wounds on Rand's side for instance.  an AS inspects them and says something to the effect of them being more jagged or rough or such.

 

the same could be suggested for a male stilling a female.  instead of a clean slice like is used for stilling someone with siadar, maybe a crushing blow is used for stilling with Saidin.  in all accounts, to me, it fits with how Saidin is described.  LTT descirbed in detail to Rand how he could and would still each one of those AS.  there for Rand had the knowledge to do so.  seeing as he used a fist of spirit (spirit being the element needed to sever a channelers ability), and the fit of rage and need to get out, it makes sense that Rand did in fact still them.

 

If spirit is used' date=' then its safe to assume that while its not a clean slice, what Rand did was a primative and more blunt form of Stilling. [/quote']

 

Why?

 

like i stated above "by all accounts of what were told, the two are polar opposites.  where as Saidin in a raging sea trying to ripe control out of your hands and you have to force it to surrender to you, Saidar is a peaceful river whom you have to surrender to.  even the weaves used in Saidin are a rougher version than those used for the same thing with Saidar."  there for its safe to assume that being stilled by Saidin would be rougher and more harsh and jagged than by Saidar.

 

Except we witness shielding which is exactly similar in circumstance. Thus, as the weaves are directly stated as being extensions of each other its unlikely. Furthermore its doubtful women form weaves for men to 'crush' when they need to be stilled.

 

the highlited portion in red of your statement is somewhat confusing to me.  so can you please clarify it in your next response.  i think your addressing the sheild that the AS formed to hold Rand.  if i'm wrong then i'm sorry.  if this is the case, the reason by Rand was crushing them is because he wasn't attampting to still them directly, he was trying to get out.  as i've said in a pervious post, it's and indirect result of him battering through their shield.  also, you have to take into account Rand's mindset at the time; he was frantic and mad with the need to get out before they realized the sheild was weakened and replace the "knots" he had already untangled.  so he used what ever he had in his mind to get out, he had the knowledge of stilling people in his head from LTT, but at this point in time because he's so frantic he's not thinking clearly.  panic had overtaken him, and as we know from many examples IRL more often than not we don't follow the most clear way of doing something when we are paniced.  if your panicing and trapped in a burnign buuilding, instead of thinking calmly and rationally and fnding a way down, you see and open window and jump out because it's an immediate escape and your panicing.

 

So, two channelers fall through a ter'angreal that destroys itself--and arn't burnt out? From there we have the fact that in that process Moiraines bond is snapped, a result that only occurs from being severed from the source. Then we have the fact that both women are imprisoned by the Finns for some considerable time--despite the fact that the power works against them easily. Then we have Cyndane appearing with a decreased strenth, again something that we've not see without severing.

 

they weren't using that ter'angrael to drawl in more power and by all acounts in the book, the only instances we've heard of someone being burnt out by a ter'angrael is when their using it to draw in more of the power.  also, while we know that channeling works well against the "foxes" (Aelfinn) the only person we've known to go into the "Snakes" (Eelfinn) is Matt, and he wasn't able to channel at all.  so there for we have no idea what type of means the Snakes have to defend themselves of the power or that you can even channel in their domain.

 

You are quite correct, we have no evidence of them being severed at all.

 

As for the Dark One healing them--that we do have no evidence for, and furthermore him healing her to a weaker degree is silly--he has he soulbound, and beyond that he only weakens himself by weakening her, and he's shown his position on that quite clearly.

 

i agree that it would weaken him even more and is not his MO to do so after reading the post by Mr. Ares.  but as i also argued, i still don't see the need to bring in a BA member to heal her when the "healing" can be done by the DO; if she even had to be healed in the first place and it wasn't a result of a bargin with the snakes