The "Lanfear to Cyndane" problem

[grump]

Luckers  You Keep stating that this, that , or the other are proven facts

The aren't They are opinions only. Let me list a few.

1. Lanfear was stilled going through the door.

2. Lanfear was killed going through the door

3. They arrived in a flash of light. (we only know that there were fireworks on the Rands side)

4. The finns shunned or even killed her for coming because they dont allow evil there. (I might mention here that no one denys Slayer is evil, but he pops in and out of their territory when ever he wants to.)

 

In sumation Lanfear was stilled, killed,escaped,(or thrown out)Resurected in a new body , healed and put back in harness,weakened by take your pick, Death stilling,the DO, the finns or someone or thing totally new and unwritten about.

 

It seems to me that as in the case of Asmo, RJ left clues as to what happened but we just aren't picking up on them.

 

Oh by the way! thanks for clueing me in on the wishes thing. I did not know that before

 

I still tend to think the simplist explanation is the best

as yet.

[Red2111]

What are you talking about, dude?  There was a huge battle scene between Rand and Rhavin which invloved Rand chasing Rhavin all through the Sun Palace and finally into TAR.  Once in TAR Rhavin got the upperhand and might have defeated Rand had Rand not gotten an assist from his old village Wisdom.  This assist distracted Rhavin enough to allow Rand the oppertunity to balefire his a$$ right out of the pattern.  It stands as one of my favorite one on one battles in the entire series.  Honestly, you need to go back and read the series again.  And please pay attention this time.

 

^ lol while that would have been interesting to read, this is what i read

 

-Rand and company (Egwene, Asmo, Mat, and Avendha) go to Caymlan(sp)

-Rahvin kills Rand's company with lightening

-Rand is pissed at this

-Rand skims to the Palace

-Yells out Rahvin.

-exit scene and enter happy epilogue with Egwene braiding Avendha's hair, Mat and Asmo are like "what the hell happened, maybe i don't want to know"  and is explained to us that Rahvin was killed using balefire which enabled those to come back to life (though interestingly enough not a large enough does to undue what Morgase did under his spell)

 

which leads to my major let down of a battle like you suggested not actually happening.  on this, my memory is rather well lmao

 

 

 

as to back to the Moraine and Lanfear being stilled.  like i had said, it's my opinon that Lanfear was killed due to a trade by Moraine with the elfin (my opinion meaning not fact and no evidence)  but they are both channeling on the way through the door frame which causes the door to melt if i remember  (my memory is still kinda overshadowed by Lanfears burst of true evilness at learning about Rand sleeping with Avendha and skinning the mercchant lmao than of Moraines sneak attack.)

 

i also remember very well that Moraine made preperations for Lan's bond to pass to another sister; she says "upon her death" but as we all know, Moraine isn't dead, other wise Mat and Thom wouldn't be on their way to rescue her from the Elfin.  it was easy enough for her to sever the bond and then the passing of the bond would take effect.  i believe that if an Aes Sedia cuts a bond between her warder and her, with out the Warder knowing if she is alive or not (especailly if the warder is told "hey i;m goign to die and i've made arangement for your bond to be passed") it will have the same effect ont he Warder as if his Aes Sedia had been killed right infront of him.

 

and nothing suggest that being stilled would cut the bond either, as long as the person is still alive or the bond is directly severed why would the bond disappear?  in the same way that ter'angles made with Sadin wouldn't hold the taint in them.

 

again, just opinion, and not fact.

[Paviel]

Just a few questions.

 

Was Lanfear holding an angreal when she was channeling that huge spell at Rand?

 

Did Moiraine snatch that angreal from Lanfear's grip?

 

Could this have burned Lanfear out?

[Luckers]

What? When was it confirmed that Lanfear was severed inside the doorframe ter'angreal? Anyway, since Moridin, Aran'gar and Osan'gar retained the power they had as Ishamael, Balthamel and Aginor respectively, I doubt Lanfear would come out weaker from ressurection "just because". And RJ's statement that being healed from Stilling by a member of the same gender puts that damper to your strength in the Power can explain this, but I miss any confirmation that Lanfear was actually Stilled (much less killed) by Moiraine or the Finn.

 

Its confirmed in cumulation. It begins in the simple circumstances--Lanfear and Moiraine fall through a ter'angreal, channeling wildly--a ter'angreal that subsequently destroys itself. After the constant comments reguarding ter'angreal i would find it more than likely that they were burned out even if we didn't have more evidence--but we do. It is as follows.

 

1. Moiraine's bond to Lan was snapped. This can only becaused by death or stilling, and we know Moiraine didn't die.

 

2. Lanfear is reduced in strength, something that once again we have only witnessed as a result of being severed.

 

3. Moiraine and Lanfear are held for a time by the Finns. Both women are strong and well trained, both had their own angreal, both have knowledge of the Finns, and we know that the One Power works just fine against them. Yet Moiraine and Lanfear are nevertheless held.

 

4. Lanfear herself cites that she had her old strength only up to the moment when she fell through the doorway--indeed, she specifies specifically that it was before she was held by the Finns.

 

So, we have an event that by everything we know seems ideal for burning someone out, and following that we see two things that we have only ever witnessed when a person has been severed, and then behaviour following that that would only have happened if they were severed.

 

All together, yes, i hold that as being solid enough for certainty.

 

Well yes, I grant you that.  In fact I already stated that there was no evidence when I pointed out that there were no other cases of famale transmigration on which to make a comparison.  What I'm getting at here is that you can't draw definitive conclusions about what will occur when a female soul is transmigrated based solely on what occurs when male souls are trasmigrated.  There is still a variable (gender) which has not been controled for so drawing the conclusion that all souls retain their stregnth in The Power when trasmigrated to a new body based solely on what happens with male souls is just bad science.  Furthermore it is also bad logic, what you are saying is this:

 

All males have souls

All females have souls

All souls can be trasmigrated.

All male souls ratain their full stregnth after trasmigration.

Therefore all souls ratain their full stregnth after trasmigration

 

Do you see the flawed logic there?  You can't definativly conculded that all souls retain their full stregnth after trasmigration because gender remains an uncontroled variable, and therefore an alternative possiblity exists.  Particularly you cannot draw this conclusion within the context of WOT, because one of the recurring themes is that there are inherent differnences between males and females (RJ loves to emphasize that) and between Saidar and Saiden.

 

Fair enough, I do see the logic in what you say.

 

How is this evidence against it?  Cabrianna, a third age AS would clearly be weaker in the power than Lanfear, one of the most powerfull channelers ever known.  Therefore, if Lanfear was put in Cabrianna's body she was indeed put in a weaker body and if my suggestion about female trasmigration is true she would naturally experience a diminshed stregnth in the power.  Note I did not suggest that Lanfear would be brought all the way down to Cabrianna's stregnth.  I merely suggested that stregnth in Saidar is more dependent on the body than is stregnth in Saidin, therefore Cabrianna's body would put some limitations on Cyndane's stregnth.  If anything this is suggestive evidence for it.

 

Mixed body-soul reactions? I don't know--if we are speaking suggestively, then one would put forward that if the souls strength is being influence by the body in female cases then the suggested result would indeed be Lanfear being reigned down to Cabriana's strength. Although--perhaps not. We see that being severed and healed--semingly a physical function--changes the amount the soul can channel. So maybe there is an influence between what the soul can channel, and what the bodies genetic receptivity... though again, that might well speak more to the body ruling th soul.

 

I concede that you definately have an argument--at least in absense--but it seems too blurry to me. Too blurry by half. It's very interesting though (for clarity im not arguing against you--i still think the severed-healing reality is the case given all the evidence sustains it, but yours is now the second argument that at least works).

 

Cyndane: long silver hair, "vivid" blus eyes, short, bosomy, breathy voice.

Cabriana: long blond hair, pale blue eyes. She has a bit part in New Spring which I don't have now. I'll check the Semi passage, but I don't think there's anything there to describe voice, height or bosom.

 

Cabriana's hair is described as pale blonde, which would match silvery, and her eyes are described as 'sharp' and 'fierce', which would match vivid, though that likely has as much to do with the personality behind the eyes. Her bosom is not mentioned, nor is her voice, other than to be described as 'she said meekly' which could be breathy, but probably again has more to do with personality. Both women are described as being quite short.

 

Luckers  You Keep stating that this, that , or the other are proven facts

The aren't They are opinions only. Let me list a few.

1. Lanfear was stilled going through the door.

2. Lanfear was killed going through the door

3. They arrived in a flash of light. (we only know that there were fireworks on the Rands side)

4. The finns shunned or even killed her for coming because they dont allow evil there. (I might mention here that no one denys Slayer is evil, but he pops in and out of their territory when ever he wants to.)

 

1. I stand by the assertion that Lanfear was certainly severed during her trip through the door. I state my reasoning above.

 

2. I never suggested Lanfear was killed going through the door--indeed, we know that she wasn't, she herself references a period during which she was held by the Finns, which means she survived the passage through.

 

3. The fireworks on Rand's side start from within the ter'angreal--indeed, he makes specific note of this. The flaring white light that is trying to escape yet seems to be stopped by an invisible barrier starts from within the ter'angreal, with sparked lightning flaring from it beginning the acrid fire.

 

4. I never stated that Lanfear was killed because she was evil--it seems a likely option, but we don't know it for fact. I have stated that we know that the Finns have a dark opinion of the Shadow, and that we know the Finns reacted negatively toward Lanfear and Moiraine. Both of which are facts--Lanfear and Moiraine were both detained, and the finns react negatively to those who bring up the Shadow. I've no doubt they dislike Slayer as well, but Slayer is a free agent, and well capable of defending himself, not a prisoner like Lanfear.

 

Furthermore, for clarity, into that i also add that their negativity would involve the destruction of the ter'angreal, which was clearly something the Finns valued greatly.

 

^ lol while that would have been interesting to read, this is what i read

 

-Rand and company (Egwene, Asmo, Mat, and Avendha) go to Caymlan(sp)

-Rahvin kills Rand's company with lightening

-Rand is pissed at this

-Rand skims to the Palace

-Yells out Rahvin.

-exit scene and enter happy epilogue with Egwene braiding Avendha's hair, Mat and Asmo are like "what the hell happened, maybe i don't want to know"  and is explained to us that Rahvin was killed using balefire which enabled those to come back to life (though interestingly enough not a large enough does to undue what Morgase did under his spell)

 

which leads to my major let down of a battle like you suggested not actually happening.  on this, my memory is rather well lmao

 

I'm afraid your memory is incorrect. Rand followed Rahvin into Tel'aran'rhiod where he and Rahvin proceeded to fight quite dramatically. Then Nynaeve having just captured Moghedian arrives, and deep fries Rahvin, before Rand balefires him. We witness all these things first hand.

 

i also remember very well that Moraine made preperations for Lan's bond to pass to another sister; she says "upon her death" but as we all know, Moraine isn't dead, other wise Mat and Thom wouldn't be on their way to rescue her from the Elfin.  it was easy enough for her to sever the bond and then the passing of the bond would take effect.i believe that if an Aes Sedia cuts a bond between her warder and her, with out the Warder knowing if she is alive or not (especailly if the warder is told "hey i;m goign to die and i've made arangement for your bond to be passed") it will have the same effect ont he Warder as if his Aes Sedia had been killed right infront of him.

 

Indeed, Myrelle. But it is not possible for her to have severed the bond in the way you describe. Firstly, that does not cause the Death-Absortion effect which Lan experiences--RJ stated specifically that releasing the bond does not cause that effect--and secondly it requires strength, and close contact, neither of which Moiraine had at that particular moment.

 

and nothing suggest that being stilled would cut the bond either, as long as the person is still alive or the bond is directly severed why would the bond disappear?  in the same way that ter'angles made with Sadin wouldn't hold the taint in them.

 

Actually we know it does. Irgain's warder's both experience the death-absortion effect when she is burned out. Similarliy the Sadness effect does not effect Siuan until she is healed.

 

 

 

 

[Red2111]

i'm re-reading as i'm wirting this

 

Moiraine had an Angreal that she took from Ruhdean, and Lanfear had a Bracelet angereal as well.  this is what it says

 

Suppressing a small bubb;e of hope -- she could not allow herself that luxury -- Moiraine balanced upright a moment on the wagontail' date=' then embraced the True Source and keaped at Lanfear.  The Forsaken had an instant's warning, enough to turn before Moiraine strck her, clawing the bracelet away.  Face to face, they toppled through th door frame [i']ter'angreal[/i]. White lightening swallowed everything.

 

it only says that she is clawing the angreal away from Lanfear, not that Moiraine gains control of it or if it is knocked to the ground.  just that it is away from Lanfear.  it does say that as soon as Lanfear is tackled by Moiraine, the flows holding Rand are gone; this could be evidence that by Moiraine knocking the angreal off of Lanfear while shes channeling through it was enough to burn her out her, or was just enough to slash the weaves.  (my guess is that it was enough to slash the weaves)

 

you are right about the white light. 

 

  The attacks on him ceased as the two wemon plunged through the doorframe ter'angreal in a flash of white light that did not end; it filled the subtly twisted redstone rectangle as though trying to flood through and striking some invisible barrier.  Lightings arched silver and blue around the ter'angreal' date=' more and more violently; rasping buzzes crackled through the air.[/quote']

 

after re-reading (and actually reading the chapter i seemed to have missed some how) i think the Elfin were some how able to still Lanfear and Moiraine.  like you guys have said, the Elfin didn't look to greatly upon the Shadow.  and the way that Moiraine and Lanfear came into their realm wouldn't have set well with them either. 

 

Lan's reaction while this is going on also says to me that Moiraine wasn't burned out or stilled before going into that doorframe.  not until the thing is melting does he simply say "She's gone" not "She's dead" but givien the circumstance the best assumption would be that she is dead.  in fact everyone believes this until the letter to Thom and Matt is revealed.  Rand does hold him back from going after her, tellign him "theres nothing you can do to help her" and Lan saying "Burn me, I know."

 

it could also be that since Moiraine was in a different realm; the Elfin were able to "sever all ties with the world" she was from; which would cause her bond with Lan to be severed as well.  but i don't see any evidence to say they were stilled or burnt out before goign through that door way.

 

i hope when we meet Moriaine again, she will tell us what did happen though.

 

as to the fight in the Dream world.  i must say to myself "How the hell did you miss that"  i was having work on my car done when i got to this point (i felt like a fool for sitting there tearing up cause of Moiriane) and must have misplaced my bookmarker.  thats the only reason i can think.  but i'm glad i came here and re-read that to see that awesome battle and i apologize for debating that with you Luckers.

[Paviel]

in fact everyone believes this until the letter to Thom and Matt is revealed.

 

Not everyone. Amys called Rand a fool for thinking that Moiraine was dead, so she at least must have known the truth.

[Leopoled Boothe]

which leads to my major let down of a battle like you suggested not actually happening.  on this, my memory is rather well lmao

 

Well apparently not because I've read TFoH twice and that scene was there both times.  Did you perhaps borrow someone else's used and overread copy that was perhaps missing some pages?  The paperback editions do have a tendence to loose pages.  I do urge you to go back and read that section again, this is a scene which should not be missed and it will be worth the re-read just to experience it.

[Red2111]

as to the fight in the Dream world.  i must say to myself "How the hell did you miss that"  i was having work on my car done when i got to this point (i felt like a fool for sitting there tearing up cause of Moiriane) and must have misplaced my bookmarker.  thats the only reason i can think.  but i'm glad i came here and re-read that to see that awesome battle and i apologize for debating that with you Luckers.

 

;)  i explained how i think i missed this a little over 2 hours before you posted Boothe lol  good point though.  paper baacks do tend to loose pages. 

 

on my cpy of FoH the glue holding the cover on is and has been pealing off for a few months... reguardless of my efforts with Elmers Glue  :(

[rd2000]

If Moiraine's bond to Lan was snapped when she went through the melting Ter'Angreal, then how was it also passed to Merlille(sp)? It couldn't have done both. We know the bond was passed because Lan immediately left to find her. Yet, we also know Lan suffers from the effect of a Warder losing his AS.

 

 

Confusing..

[Red2111]

from what i was able to understand, once the bond that was connected to Moiriane was no longer there (severed, her death or being stilled) the bond would then transfer to Myrelle.

 

i think she did it this way, not onle because of the effect it normally has on a Warder (driving them to kill until killed) but because of Lan's "Marriage" with the shadow.  she knew that he wouldn't go to Nyneave and instead would run into the blight to continue trying to get killed liek he was before Moiriane ever bonded him.

[Luckers]

Moiraine had an Angreal that she took from Ruhdean, and Lanfear had a Bracelet angereal as well.  this is what it says

 

 

Quote from:  FoH pg 893

Suppressing a small bubb;e of hope -- she could not allow herself that luxury -- Moiraine balanced upright a moment on the wagontail, then embraced the True Source and keaped at Lanfear.  The Forsaken had an instant's warning, enough to turn before Moiraine strck her, clawing the bracelet away.  Face to face, they toppled through th door frame ter'angreal. White lightening swallowed everything.

 

it only says that she is clawing the angreal away from Lanfear, not that Moiraine gains control of it or if it is knocked to the ground.  just that it is away from Lanfear.  it does say that as soon as Lanfear is tackled by Moiraine, the flows holding Rand are gone; this could be evidence that by Moiraine knocking the angreal off of Lanfear while shes channeling through it was enough to burn her out her, or was just enough to slash the weaves.  (my guess is that it was enough to slash the weaves)

 

Actually the angreal i reference Moiraine having is the one she took from the Tower, the figuirine of a woman. She kept it in her pouch. The bracelet angreal that Lanfear uses is the one Moiraine found in Rhuidean. She specifically leaves it out for Lanfear to find.

 

after re-reading (and actually reading the chapter i seemed to have missed some how) i think the Elfin were some how able to still Lanfear and Moiraine.  like you guys have said, the Elfin didn't look to greatly upon the Shadow.  and the way that Moiraine and Lanfear came into their realm wouldn't have set well with them either. 

 

I find that unlikely. Firstly, there is not evidence that the Eelfinn can sever a person--and indeed, there is evidence against it in that the Aelfinn did not use this ability against Rand. And Moiraine's bond with Lan is snapped immediately. Far more likely is that both were burned out by the destruction of the ter'angreal.

 

Lan's reaction while this is going on also says to me that Moiraine wasn't burned out or stilled before going into that doorframe.  not until the thing is melting does he simply say "She's gone" not "She's dead" but givien the circumstance the best assumption would be that she is dead.  in fact everyone believes this until the letter to Thom and Matt is revealed.  Rand does hold him back from going after her, tellign him "theres nothing you can do to help her" and Lan saying "Burn me, I know."

 

Firstly, we know that she wasn't severed until after entering the doorway anyway--we see her holding the source.

 

Secondly, whilst none of the character knew she lived, we did. Between Moiraine's 'bubble of hope', her claim to Thom that they would meet again, Egwene's dream of Thom pulling Moiraine's blue stone out of a fire, and Min's viewing about something Moiraine still needed to do.... yes it seemed certain.

 

it could also be that since Moiraine was in a different realm; the Elfin were able to "sever all ties with the world" she was from; which would cause her bond with Lan to be severed as well.  but i don't see any evidence to say they were stilled or burnt out before goign through that door way.

 

Firstly we know travel between parallel realities does not sever the bond. Secondly the Finns did not 'sever all ties with the world'--the Tower of Ghenjei and the Tairen doorway both still exist.

 

Not everyone. Amys called Rand a fool for thinking that Moiraine was dead, so she at least must have known the truth.

 

Amys' comment to me read more as a comment on him feeling guilty about Moiraine's death--that combined with his treatment of the Maidens 'you are a fool, about this and about many things'. It's too oblique, and it seems too strange that she would not simply say flat out that she wasn't dead if she was going to go as far as calling him a fool for believing it.

 

Indeed, why would one be fool for believing Moiraine dead after what had just occured.

 

If Moiraine's bond to Lan was snapped when she went through the melting Ter'Angreal, then how was it also passed to Merlille(sp)? It couldn't have done both. We know the bond was passed because Lan immediately left to find her. Yet, we also know Lan suffers from the effect of a Warder losing his AS.

 

Seemingly it can do both things... indeed, it seems that method was designed to deal with the bond snapping--when his bond snapped, he immediately was rebonded to Myrelle. He still experiences the effects of a snapped bond, but the new bond has formed and he feels that compulsion too.

[grump]

Moraine knew what was going to happen, she states everyone will think she is dead. It seems to me she had plenty of time to make any arrangements she needed to both mask the bond and transfer it.  Also what ever happened to Lanfear happened while she was with the finns, and yet, you keep denying them any responsibility for any of the changes. She herself says Aliva is as strong as she was BEFORE being held captive by the finns.  So the finns were there when all these changes were going on, but sat and watched while unknown powers tinkered around in their territory. I don't think so!

 

I hope we won't all be disappointed if we ever find out what really happened in some of these small but interesting happenings

[MystErikEry]

The Finns held her captive from the moment she entered the doorway and destroyed it.  Before that, she had a great deal of strength in the One Power.  Once she became held by the Finns, however, she had been burned out by the doorway ter'angreal, and thus was no longer strong in the One Power.

 

I take it there's more to the story, of course - she perhaps died eventually, perhaps after attempting escape, and thus was able to be reborn by the Dark One.  Moiraine wouldn't have died, obviously, so she is either cooperating with her captors, or is getting by some other way or another.  *shrugs*

 

As for the bond, it is indeed as was said: it snapped and refixed on Myrelle.  After all, Myrelle mentions later to Egwene that she's saved a few warders this way, from what I remember (though I'd have to reread that section to get an exact quote).  At the very least, even if it was unorthodox in that she (a) passed the bond on automatically (although how to do this is presumably common knowledge - they didn't seem to flap about this at all) and more importantly (b) did it without Lan's permission.... the fact remains that she appears to have done similar before, and doesn't really seem to think there was anything strange about this particular case aside from fears of the punishment she'd face for doing it behind the warder's back, so to speak.

[Mr Ares]

Moraine knew what was going to happen, she states everyone will think she is dead. It seems to me she had plenty of time to make any arrangements she needed to both mask the bond and transfer it. Also what ever happened to Lanfear happened while she was with the finns, and yet, you keep denying them any responsibility for any of the changes. She herself says Aliva is as strong as she was BEFORE being held captive by the finns.  So the finns were there when all these changes were going on, but sat and watched while unknown powers tinkered around in their territory. I don't think so!

Lan's bond to Moiraine was snapped, not just dissolved (such a dissolution of the bond would leave Lan free of the negative consequences of having ones bond snapped, yet we know Lan experienced them. Therefore the bond was snapped.). So he was bonded at the time she went through the doorway. Also, what "unknown powers" were tinkering in their territory? She went through, was severed, died, was brought back, was Healed. The Healing left her weaker. Before she went to the Finns she was stronger than after. Which does not mean that the Finns did anything to her, it merely establishes an order to events: was stronger, was held, was weaker. She is stronger than she was while she was being held, because she was powerless then. She is weaker than before she was held, but this is natural when women are Healed from severing by women.

[Luckers]

Moraine knew what was going to happen, she states everyone will think she is dead. It seems to me she had plenty of time to make any arrangements she needed to both mask the bond and transfer it.

 

You seem to be missing that there is an actual effect that happens when a bond is snapped. In men, it is described as them 'absorbing the woman's death', it causes a deadness, an emptyness that usually drives them to suicide. In women it causes grief--they cry, and cannot help it. These are not the normal results of losing someone you valued, they are an effect of the bond snapping--RJ stated them as such.

 

Dissolution of the bond, or masking it, does not cause these effects. For them to happen the bond had to be snapped, and the only things that snap a bond are death, and being severed.

 

Also what ever happened to Lanfear happened while she was with the finns, and yet, you keep denying them any responsibility for any of the changes. She herself says Aliva is as strong as she was BEFORE being held captive by the finns.

 

A precisely literal interpretation would show that she had her strength until the very moment of being taken by the Finns--i.e. she lost her strength in the process of ending up their prisoner, or in other words in the trip between.

 

The comment directly precludes it happening during her stay with the finns. Of course people are rarely so literal, but as you wanted to argue semantics...

 

 

[Red2111]

i still don't see why you all keep stating she was healed.  the DO had her remade, and therefor could do whatever he wanted with her (which is what he did) 

 

theres no way Lafear escaped the Finns, otherwise Moiraine would have too.

 

The DO is cruel, he made her weaker in the power than she was yet still strong enough to do the things he needs done.  after all, she was planning to go against him to rule the world with Rand since those access keys were found.  she says so herself.

 

she would have had neither time, nor ability to get to one of the black ajahs that knew how to heal her.  once she was reborn (and i doubt the DO would have reborn her w/out the power) she was placed under Moridins supervision.  it makes no sense to the plot and does nothing for it to have her healed by a Black Ajah member when its easy enough to lay everything as the DO's doing.

 

 

and as i was saying about the Finn's world.  i never said they were using the Power, but that they might have soem other way of controlling ones ability to channel; or maybe the ability to channel in such a place is negated (like at a stedding) and because it is their realm, they might actually have a way to cut one off from the source completely if they feel threatened.  which in the way Moiraine and Lanfear came busting into there, i'd feel threatened too.  i never once said or implicated that they could channel, nor do i think they can.  no one that we know of that can channel has went into the Elfinn's territory before and given us a POV, so its more than possible that, unlike the other Finn's, the ones that tried to kill matt have a barrier against channeling in their realm.

[balefireruinssteaks]

I thought Amys's statement was foreshadowing, perhaps the very first glimmer of hope that we have that Moiraine is not dead.  I don't think it was an attack on Rand blaming himself.  Amys is a dreamwalker, she knows a lot of things that MIGHT happen, but it's not like she goes around telling everyone.  Wise Ones only tell what they feel is necessary to tell, much like Aes Sedai.

 

Also, Moiraine had a foreknowledge of what MIGHT happen from the rings when she herself went to Rhuidien.  Even her letter states that several things could have happened, and if Rand was reading the letter then "this" thing panned out.

 

the DO had her remade, and therefor could do whatever he wanted with her (which is what he did) 

 

I don't think the DO has THAT kind of power.  He can transmigrate souls but I don't think he has the ability to dictate what power level they will be at, or why wouldn't he just create tons of channelers who can operate at the very highest levels.  That would be immensely chaotic and suit his purposes just fine.

 

No...he did transmigrate Lanfear's soul...but I still think there is a mystery surrounding why she is weaker, and I haven't bought into the idea that she was Healed by a woman yet.  In order for Cyndane to still be considered incredibly powerful, operating at half of Lanfear's power would mean that Lanfear was operating at a level beyond imagination.  Healing stilling by someone of the same gender cuts the power level roughly in half.  So I think there is another explanation.

[MystErikEry]

Actually, there's some debate over whether or not Healing by a same-gender channeler will really cut the strength in half.

 

Many of Siuan's quotes are more refering to her level compared to other Sisters and her standing with them as far as pecking order goes, and that if she could be Healed even half again as much she'd be half her old standing... Keep in mind that Sisters are all very similar in degrees of Power strength, for the most part, even if there is tiers and levels.

 

:) Also, it may also depend on who's doing the Healing, as well.  Although Nynaeve does seem to have a Talent for Healing, it's possible there's a separate Talent for dealing with the ability to channel, and that some channelers may just have an easier time healing severing - or perhaps severing at all! - than doing normal Healing...  *shrugs* Though there's no evidence of htat.

[Mr Ares]

If I listen really carefully I'm sure I can hear, from the other side of the world, the sound of Luckers banging his head on the wall from sheer frustration. After all, how many times has the "it doesn't cut your strength by half" point been addressed? If Siuan had lost half her strength it is unlikely she would be strong enough to be Aes Sedai - and yet she is not even at the bottom of Aes Sedai strength rankings. Also, even if Siuan had lost half her strength, there is no telling that Lanfear would have. After all, it could be a fixed amount of strength lost - which would impair a weaker channeler more than a strong one.

 

i still don't see why you all keep stating she was healed.  the DO had her remade, and therefor could do whatever he wanted with her (which is what he did)

She was severed and now isn't. Healing is the only thing we know of that can stop someone severed being severed and make them unsevered. Also, the only thing we know of that can cause that drop in strength is severing followed by healing. And we don't know that Shai'tan can heal anything

 

theres no way Lafear escaped the Finns, otherwise Moiraine would have too.

Wouldn't that depend on how Lanfear escaped? Say she died. Would that mean Moiraine considers that a viable means of escape?

 

The DO is cruel, he made her weaker in the power than she was yet still strong enough to do the things he needs done.  after all, she was planning to go against him to rule the world with Rand since those access keys were found.  she says so herself.

What she says is immaterial if Shai'tan doesn't know she said it. And it would take more than just cruelty to do what he did to Cyndane. It would take a desire to shoot himself in the foot. Because that is exactly what he has done if what you suggest is correct. He has made his tool weaker and less effective, to no gain to Himself. WHY THE BLOODY HELL WOULD HE DO THAT???

 

she would have had neither time, nor ability to get to one of the black ajahs that knew how to heal her.  once she was reborn (and i doubt the DO would have reborn her w/out the power) she was placed under Moridins supervision.  it makes no sense to the plot and does nothing for it to have her healed by a Black Ajah member when its easy enough to lay everything as the DO's doing.

So Lanfear dies. Shai'tan brings her back, discovers she can't channel. Knowing of the recent discovery (thanks to spies) a message is sent to a Yellow BA sister in Salidar (depending on the method used this needn't take a long time), and she promptly Travels to SG (given the AS view of privacy no-one would know where she was going), and said sister proceeds to heal Cyndane and give her to Moridin, who proceeds to mindtrap her. Later, Moggy is released and we know her side of the story. What is the problem with this sequence of events? Why isn't there time enough? Why is the ability lacking? How would Shai'tan know she can't channel (and if He knows she can be healed, why would He care?)? What doesn't make sense?

 

and as i was saying about the Finn's world.  i never said they were using the Power, but that they might have soem other way of controlling ones ability to channel; or maybe the ability to channel in such a place is negated (like at a stedding) and because it is their realm, they might actually have a way to cut one off from the source completely if they feel threatened. which in the way Moiraine and Lanfear came busting into there, i'd feel threatened too.  i never once said or implicated that they could channel, nor do i think they can.  no one that we know of that can channel has went into the Elfinn's territory before and given us a POV, so its more than possible that, unlike the other Finn's, the ones that tried to kill matt have a barrier against channeling in their realm.

Why sould we assume that? We know ter'angreal are dangerous, and we see Moiraine and Lanfear disappear into one going into meltdown. We see Lan's bond snap, which so far as we know can only be caused by death or severing (and we know she isn't dead...). The only thing we know of that can cause a channeler to be weaker than they were in the manner seen in Cyndane is severing followed by healing. If they were severed they would be unable to escape by channeling. Put it all together and you have a pretty solid case for them, being severed. But no, we have to make half a hundred assumptions about new ways to sever bonds, the Eelfinn being able to produce a sterdeding like effect, Shai'tan being able to change someones strength in the power, whether or not showing a bit more cleavage would have kept Lanfear alive, and so on and so forth, with no reason to suspect even the existence of any of these things. Given the information we have about what is possible and what isn't the only viable explanation is that they were severed going through the doorway and Cyndane was healed by a woman.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Here are a few possibilites we haven't considered:

 

1. Could Cyndane be partially shielded in a way similar to what she herself did to Asmo?  The biggest confounding variable in this hyothesis is that we don't know if this can be done to a channeler with out them knowing.  Channelers certainly do seem to know when they have been fully shielded, that is to say they seem to know that they have been sheilded as opposed to severed.  However, this partial shielding is a whole differnt ball game, so perhaps a channeler can be partially shieled without him/her knowing the source of his/her reduced stregnth.  Asmo did know that he had been partially shielded but he knew because Lanfear strait out told him that's what she was doing.

 

2. Could it be an effect of the mind trap?  We really don't know exactlly what a mind trap does, but it does seem to give the holder of the mind trap some degree of control or influnce over the person in the mind trap.  Moghedian doesn't seem to be experiencing any reduction in power, but perhaps it is all up to the discression of Moridin.  So why would Moridin choose to reduce Cyndane's stregnth and not Moghedian's?  One possible explaination would be that Moggy's stregnth comes nowhere near the level of Moridin's and so he does not see her as a threat.  By contrast, Lanfear's stregnth probably come's closer to matching Moridin's than any other know channeler, so Moridin decided to take the oppertunity to eliminate a potental threat to himself by reducing Cyndane's stregnth in the power to a level that he feels cannot match his own.  Another possibilty could be that if a channeler is stong enough in the power, or if her stregnth is close enough to that of the holder of the mind trap, they could potentially break out of a mind trap. Moridin wants to make sure Cyndande does not break free so he reduces her stregnth appropriately.  Moridin doesn't worry about Moggy because he knows her stregnth is insuficient to break free.  I realize that there is not direct evidence supporting any of this, but given that we know so little about mind traps I think it is a viable hypothesis.

[Red2111]

^very good points. but the mind trap doesn't effect Mohegidens ability to channel

 

 

another bit of beef i have with Lanfear being "healed".

 

you guys are saying she and Moiraine were burned out as they went through the door.  you guys object the possibillity that maybe the Finns have some ability to sever soemone from the Source (still them)

 

 

as we have been told, Stilling and being burnt out are different in a few ways.

 

Stillign is where someone cuts your abilit to channel, yet you can still feel the source.  i beleive it's been suggested that when a Sister "Burns herself out" the abilit to channel is seared out of her, and possibly she can no longer even feel the source.

 

the only reason why stilling can be heled, is because there is still a link that can be bridged; where as with burning out, it's burned away and no such link exists.

 

so by this logic, to say that Lanfear was burned out, and then healed is a conflict and hypocritical to say the least.  in essance, having your cake and eating it too.

 

 

as for "dieing is a means of escape" isn't one that Moiriane would choose to pick.  there is no certainty of being "reborn" back into the pattern like Lanfear and the other Forsaken for her.  not to mention, she knows that by folowing certain events and doing certain things the possibility of being rescued is greatly increased; she knows that there is a chance that Mat will come to rescue her, and that by Min's veiwing, she has to be there to help Rand at TG.  so no, dieing is a possibility that Moiriane wouldn't consider.

[Leopoled Boothe]

^very good points. but the mind trap doesn't effect Mohegidens ability to channel

 

Red you really need to lean to pay attention when you read, I clearly covered the Moghedien issue.  Now go back, re-read my post and try to come back with an INTELLIGENT response. 

 

Sorry if this seems a bit harsh but it is frustrating when someone comes back at me with an argument that I have already addressed. 

[CUBAREY]

To Leopold"

 

With respect even if you can limit ones power with the Mind Trap why restrict Cylene's power to the extent that cylene's power is so obviously effected. She went from the strongest female channeler possibly the Third most powerful Channeler (after Rand and Moriden's) to being middling in power compared to the other Choosen?  It seems to me lowering her power to where she was still the second or third most powerful forsaken would suit Moriden's purposes better.

 

Now since Moriden can use the True Power, a limiting weave that would be undectable by those using Saiden or Saider would seem a better possibility.

[Avery]

Wasn't there a theory at one point that Lanfear had visited the Finns once before, wished for more strength, and those wishes were revoked since when she entered the doorway again? That explains why her strength was diminished when she was transmigrated by the Dark One. What disqualified that one?

 

Actually, now that I think about it, I'm not sure which doorway it was that she was knocked into, it may not have been the wishes one.

[Harmless Bandit]

To Leopold"

 

With respect even if you can limit ones power with the Mind Trap why restrict Cylene's power to the extent that cylene's power is so obviously effected. She went from the strongest female channeler possibly the Third most powerful Channeler (after Rand and Moriden's) to being middling in power compared to the other Choosen?  It seems to me lowering her power to where she was still the second or third most powerful forsaken would suit Moriden's purposes better.

 

Mild in the Power compared to the other Chosen? Where did you get such an idea? Graendal states that men stronger than her are rare, women even more so. This just after realizing that Cyndane is stronger than her.

 

I believe Cyndane still is the most powerful female Forsaken, and one of the strongest women in the world (that we see). I would say that Lanfear, Cyndane (if one considers them as two separate strengths), Alivia, and Sharina are in a league of their own, with Lanfear (former strength) being the strongest, and Cyndane (today's strength) the weakest.

 

But all this is pure conjecture, of course  ;)