The Dragon Banner

[Minnea]

I just read the discussion below...

 

So, if the Heores of the Horn answers to the Horn and the one who blows it, but has to follow the Dragon and the Banner... does anyone (like Rand or Mat) realize it? Will they stop to get the banner before blowing the Horn?

 

And, where exactly IS the Dragon Banner? I seem to remember it being called something else too ("Banner of the Light" ?), and flying over one of the cities...

[bcxanth]

The banner of Light is what the banner with the ancient symbol of the AS has come to be called. As for the Dragon Banner, there are copies flying in Cairhien, but the original is still flying over the Stone I think.

[Minnea]

Thanks for the clarifying about the Dragon Banner / Banner of the Light.

 

Let's see if someone else can confirm that the Banner is in Tear.

[Luckers]

The heroes of the horn do not need to follow either the Dragon or the banner, it was merely a personal predilection of Artur Hawkwings... to set the mood, as it were. The heroes themselves only have to obey whoever sounds the horn, which at the moment has to be Mat, they don't have to follow anyone.

 

Also, yes, the last the banner was seen it was flying above tear. Since Rand didn't take it with him to the Waste it seems likely that it is still there.

[Timewalker]

Actually, the heros do have to follow the banner. It was said right in the book. However, only the person who has sounded the horn once can sound it again.

[Kadere]

Didn't Rand end up bringing the banner with him in PoD to fight the Seanchan, or was that just the cover?

 

As for the Heroes having to follow the Dragon and the Banner, that's never made clear in the books, but from what is said by Suain and Hawkwing, no they don't. That's why Hawkwing has faced the Dragon hundreds of times in the last battle.

[Guest Majsju]

The heroes needed to follow the banner in that particular moment. A moment where there was more things in the mix than just riding out fighting a battle.

[Jellybelly]

Yup. As Hawkwing said, "the weave of this moment is set."

[Luckers]

Actually, the heros do have to follow the banner. It was said right in the book. However, only the person who has sounded the horn once can sound it again.

 

As the others have said, no they didn't. Specifically Hawkwing requested it to set the mood of the moment, because people, even dead heroes, have a certain feel for the dramatic theatrics of a moment. They could have easily have fought without it, though Maj may be correct in suggesting that it had something to do with the peculiar Rand in the sky and the connection between Rand's advances and retreats, and those of the hereos--if that is indeed what Maj is suggesting...

[Guest Majsju]

What I meant was that in that particular moment, the weave is set. The Wheel demands that the Dragon proclaim himself (it was the Wheel that made the fight between Rand & Ishy being on display all over the place, and also appear over Taim and the other false dragon, so they both were removed now that there was no need for them anymore, the real dragon had been proclaimed)

 

The need for the banner to be there for the heroes to be able to ride forth is also a part of that. The Wheel is not taaking any chances anymore, it has lost its patience with Rand, and are now forcing him to proclaim himself. The only option Rand has is to run away and abandon his friends.

[Luckers]

Yeah that makes sense.

[mightisright]

"That's why Hawkwing has faced the Dragon hundreds of times in the last battle."

 

Not necessarily.

 

Hawkwing says he has "...fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more." This does not mean he fought for the dark side. Plenty of light fearing folks have resisted Rand this time around and the same has likely happened in the past. I believe this senerio is much more likely. I personally do not believe the heros tied to the horn are ever spun out as dark friends. That would make for a lousy universe with no real good guys.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Sorry, Maj, but Rand doesn't actually procalim himself The Dragon Reborn until after he defeats Baalzy in Tear.

 

At Falme, he just lets people think whatever they want. He proclaims nothing.

 

And, Hawkwing is not stating a preference, he's stating a requirement:

"...We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

[Wotguru]

So what do they do if there is no Dragon in the World at the time?

[Guest Winespring Brother]

So what do they do if there is no Dragon in the World at the time?

 

 

Easy. He appears as one of the heroes :D

[Jellybelly]

Sorry' date=' Maj, but Rand doesn't actually procalim himself The Dragon Reborn until after he defeats Baalzy in Tear.

 

At Falme, he just lets people think whatever they want. He proclaims nothing.

 

And, Hawkwing is not stating a preference, he's stating a requirement:

"...We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

 

Maj's point still stands, as the Wheel proclaimed Rand the Dragon Reborn at Falme even if he did not say the words himself.

[Guest Majsju]

Sorry' date=' Maj, but Rand doesn't actually procalim himself The Dragon Reborn until after he defeats Baalzy in Tear.

 

At Falme, he just lets people think whatever they want. He proclaims nothing.

 

And, Hawkwing is not stating a preference, he's stating a requirement:

"...We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

 

Rand is proclaimed in the eyes of other because of what happened at Falme. In case you skipped a few pages, it's after Falme that dragonsworn starts to gather, not after Tear. In case you skipped other pages, when Rand appears in the shy above falme, Taim and the other false dragon are both defeated at the same time, because of interaction from the Wheel: their part of the weave is over because the reral Dragon Reborn has been proclaimed.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well, "the Wheel" also acclaimed Rand the Dragon at Tarwin's Gap, so doing it again at Falme was pretty redundant. So what's your point?

 

Rand doesn't even allow himself to think that he could really be the Dragon Reborn until Tear.

[Guest Majsju]

The point is that the things in Falme made people recognize and acknowledge Rand as the Dragon Reborn. There was no dragonsworn springing up after Tarwin's gap. Neither Taim nor the other false dragon was defeated due to a projection in the sky put there by the Wheel in order to remove any additional Dragons, that happened because of falme, when the true dragon was proclaimed.

 

That Rand himself doesn't proclaim that he's the Dragon Reborn until Tear only strengthens the fact that it was the Wheel taking firm action in Falme to make damn sure that he was proclaimed.

[Inara]

So what do they do if there is no Dragon in the World at the time?

 

 

Easy. He appears as one of the heroes :D

 

do you think its likely that the pattern would allow the horn to be found before it was time for the dragon to do his thing? finding it IS one of the signs of his return.

[Luckers]

Yes, it would. The horn is usable to any who sounds it. What if Turak had sounded it and used it against Rand?

[Inara]

i agree, but rand is there.

the question is whether the horn can be found if the dragon has not been spun into the pattern,

eg 200 years ago

[Luckers]

The horn being found is an incident of the current age. The Dragon's pressense is not a nessasary function of the horns power. By all acounts it was not hidden in the age of legends, and likely used at some stage in history without the Dragon.

[Bob T Dwarf]

That's a BIG assumption.

 

What we "know" about the Horn is that it was in Aes Sedai possession during the Breaking and that it and the Dragon Banner were secreted in the Eye of the World at that time. We "know" that there are legends about the Horn and what it is capable of doing. We have actually only seen one incident of its use. That incident tells us that the Horn does indeed summon the Heroes. But, it also tells us that the Heroes are constrained to only follow both the banner and the Dragon. If one or both is missing when the Horn is sounded, the outcome is totally unknown.

 

There is no evidence that the Horn was ever used during the AoL. Indeed, had it been, the War of Power might ( probably would ) have gone much differently.

 

Nothing is known about the Horn or its use prior to that. We can theorize any number of things but they remain just theories and assumptions.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The point is that the things in Falme made people recognize and acknowledge Rand as the Dragon Reborn. There was no dragonsworn springing up after Tarwin's gap. Neither Taim nor the other false dragon was defeated due to a projection in the sky put there by the Wheel in order to remove any additional Dragons' date=' that happened because of falme, when the true dragon was proclaimed.

 

That Rand himself doesn't proclaim that he's the Dragon Reborn until Tear only strengthens the fact that it was the Wheel taking firm action in Falme to make damn sure that he was proclaimed.[/quote']

 

Now you're ascribing some form of sentience to the Wheel. Where's your evidence for that?

 

Everything points to the Wheel being a pattern following machine with a limited self-correcting mechanism ( ta'verens ). Nothing even suggests that it is capable of thought or reason, let alone complicated strategic and political planning and execution.

 

There is no deus ex machina here.