"REMNANT OF A REMNANT SHALL BE SAVED"

[Luckers]

They did. What happened was that during the breaking some of the Aiel got fed up with carting around the ter'angreal and gave up the mission. These later became the tuatha'an. They so interbred with non-Aiel though that they lost the physical Aiel traits.

 

The reason we know that it doesn't refer to them is that the prophecy makes clear that it is 'those that call themselves Aiel' that are involved in that prophecy.

[RAND AL THOR]

The last two posts make the most sense so far.

 

I always did wonder what happened to those Da'shain who abandoned the wagons but still called themselves Aiel. I think the Aiel leader at the time called them 'lost'. that would coincide with the present Aiel calling the tinkers the 'lost ones'

[aussie_ashaman123]

I think the Aiel call anyone who follows the Way of the Leaf "Lost", after one of the first warrior Aiel yelled back at the caravans, "I'm not Lost, you are!"

[Luckers]

Indeed, they definately became the tuatha'an.

 

And no, he actually yells back that he is still Aiel because he never used a sword. Lewin never suggests that the Jenn are lost.

[Digbe]

It will either be the bloody tinkers or the Aiel lost to the bleakness that find the lost song that will be saved by the Car'a'carn ... Perhaps both, together working together somehow. 

[RAND AL THOR]

The modern day Aiel believe their exile in the Waste is a punishment for failing Aes Sedai. However, the tinkers failed the Aes Sedai long before the Jenn. So shouldn't the tinkers face some sort of punishment too? Or is the Aiel belief that they are being punished a false one? ???

[CUBAREY]

The Aiel belive that they failed the Aides Sadie by not keeping to their oaths to them. The Jenn who were the only part of the Aiel to kep "faith" with their oaths died out. Now, in actuality the ancient Aides Sadie did not really mean to give the Aiel a mission, they gave then the Tareggail (spelling) and told them to keep them safe as a way to get them out of harms way.

 

Now the remnant of a remnant I believe will turn out to be the surviving Shado who are returning to the Waste (a true remenant of a remnant) the other Aiel have already begun a transformation into something else. It should be rembered that the majority if Gaishin are refusing to give up White after their one year of servitude is over and and that almost all male Warriors now wear th head band of the Swasi (property of the Dragon). What most of the Aiel will ultimately become is still unclear but those who survive TG are likely to either return to the Way of the Leaf (the Gaishin) or identify themselves as Swasi and not Aiel.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Guys I dont think the Shaido is a remnant of a remnant. It would be a remnant, but not a "remnant of a remnant." I dont have a clue how this will turn out but I doubt a full clan will be saved. I thought that Aviendha, her kids, and a select few others may survive, but if it turns out that the Shaido are the remnant of a remnant, I will be dissapointed.

[trakand_01]

Reading all the evidence, I think the Shaido ARE the remnant. I think RJ spent a lot of time encouraging us to feel resentment, anger and disgust towards the Shaido, only to later learn that they are the future of the Aiel race.

[RAND AL THOR]

That would be horrible and dissapointing. Thereva among the last remaining Aiel? How horrid. And worse still, The Shaido do not follow Ji'e'toh properly anymore.

 

It is possible though. That was my original post but the replies point the remnant towards the tinks possibly. I'm more confused now than I was when I started the post, hehe. ;D

[Luckers]

Well, again, the Shaido can't be the remnant... the prophecy makes clear that the remnant will be saved by Rand's direct action--'and the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live.'

 

Guys I dont think the Shaido is a remnant of a remnant. It would be a remnant, but not a "remnant of a remnant." I dont have a clue how this will turn out but I doubt a full clan will be saved. I thought that Aviendha, her kids, and a select few others may survive, but if it turns out that the Shaido are the remnant of a remnant, I will be dissapointed.

 

Did you read my comments about the realities of that 'the remnant of a remnant' comment.

 

The use of the word 'the' combined with the time at which it was spoken, added to the 'those that call themselves Aiel' comment suggests that it begins with the Da'shain. So, by that i mean that the prophecy seperates itself, it is speaking of 'the remanant' which is a remnant of a pre-existing remnant.

 

So we have the Da'shain who go through the breaking, and then we have modern Aiel, a remnant of the Da'shain. Then Rand comes along and reveals their hidden history and the Aiel again go through a change--still linked to their roots but no longer the same. The remnant of a remnant.

 

I went into quite a bit of detail at various stages. So yes, while i agree with you that its not the Shaido, there is no requirement for it to be a double remnant, and i very much doubt that the destructions of the clans will be as complete as you suggest. Far more likely is that it refers to the social changes going under way.

 

Thats not to say the Aiel would have a dramatic death count--the same prophecy speaking of him spilling their blood on the sane.

[cloglord]

It's from the Shadow Rising, Chapter 34.

 

The full verse is...

 

 

Quote

He shall spill out the blood of those who call themselves Aiel as water on sand, and he shall break them as dried twigs, yet the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live

 

You'll note the use of 'those that call themselves Aiel'. Another indication that the remnant of a remnant refers to the Da'shain, not modern Aiel. He will save a remnant of the remnants of the Da'shain.

 

I don't think that the remnant that is referenced can be the Daishan Aiel for two reasons. 

 

1.  The Daishan Aiel didn't call themselves Aiel, they called themselves the Daishan Aiel, and then later they were known as the Jenn Aiel.  There is a specific mention of a Jenn disassociating with the term Aiel, but I'm not in a place to look up the quote.

 

2.  Rand could not have "spilled out their blood," if the reference is to the Daishan, because Rand, the DR, was not alive 3,000 years ago.

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

I think the ones who felt the bleakness are the remnant; he saved them by telling the truth about the Aiel. Not the ones who went to the Shaido, just those who threw down their spears. Maybe they will take up the way of the leaf again.

 

And it is definitely not the Tinkers, because in the prophecy it says "those that call themselves Aiel." Meaning the "so-called" Aiel that Taim talks about. The Tinkers havent called themselves Aiel for however long, and that was way before Rand was even born so he hasnt done anything to saved them.

[argonath]

Here is something to look at... it extends further than simply the quote a Remnant of a Remnant.

 

These Aiel ARE the People of the Dragon.  There were some Aiel EACH who followed different Aes Sedai before they became Forsaken, but certain sects were KNOWN for being a servant to that particular Aes Sedai.

 

(Remember in Rhuidean when one of Rands ancestors followed Lanfear?)

 

The aiel are a very stubborn and very much custom oriented people.  Yet, they were willing on a dime to follow the Dragon (Car a carn) at a moments notice, and were also able to accept change after 3000 years of petrification under Je'i'toh (sp?).

 

They WAITED for the Dragon... and a combination of Rand's Ta'veren and a willingness to accept prophecy might eventually lead them to re-accept the Da'Shain ways once the Last Battle is completed.

 

Part of the wheel in motion here is the return of the Male Aes Sedai (Black Tower) and the cleansing of the male half of the source.  Many things are coming BACK to the time of the Age of Legends, only in reverse here.

 

MY question is... WHO will find the song?  The travelling people, or the current Aiel?  What power is in the song, and is it something that can change the soul, and thus reform the Aiel back into Da'Shain?

[Guest Dreadlord]

I wonder if the Song can bring back a channeller who has been forcibly turned. RJ said that when a channeller is turned to the Shadow against their will that the nasty parts of the personality are brought to the fore and the "good" aspects are supressed. I wonder if the Song can reverse this.

 

Another thing, I seem to remember Elan Morin saying to Lews Therin he has the Voice. I don't think thats anything to do with the Song but does anyone have any knowledge/insight on that?

[Dreadlady]

Dreadlord, it was in the prologue to TEOTW. Mad Lews Therin asked Ishameal if he had the "Voice", and referred to the "Singing", with a capital. It sounded to me like a religious rite, of whatever sort they had then. Also, remember when the Aiel were singing the fields with the ogier and the Nym, it sounded like something only one of the Aiel could do; at least a very special song.

[Luckers]

1.  The Daishan Aiel didn't call themselves Aiel, they called themselves the Daishan Aiel, and then later they were known as the Jenn Aiel.  There is a specific mention of a Jenn disassociating with the term Aiel, but I'm not in a place to look up the quote.

 

'Those that call themselve Aiel' is a clear reference to modern Aiel, not the Da'shain. It is modern Aiel that are the first Remnant--a remnant of the Da'shain. Whatever comes next is the second remnant, a remnant of the remnant of the Da'shain, or put another way a remnant of modern Aiel.

 

But yes, the clear inference of 'those that call themselves' shows that the speaker did not associate those she spoke of with Aiel as she knew them--so clearly modern Aiel.

 

MY question is... WHO will find the song?  The travelling people, or the current Aiel?  What power is in the song, and is it something that can change the soul, and thus reform the Aiel back into Da'Shain?

 

Firstly, let me remind everyone that 'the song' spoken of by the tuatha'an never actually existed. It is a mythological construction based in the Lost One's desire to retain the peace they knew in the Age of Legends, and with it the glorious culture that had once been theirs, which was in large part wrapped in singing--for indeed Da'shain singing was a powerful--a function of the Talent called the Voice, it acted alot like Ogier treesinging--and that will be mixed up in the mythos of the Song.

 

But there is no Song of the type that the tuatha'an describe--no miraculous set of words set to a beat that will magically bring back the Age of Legends. The closest anyone will come is the seed singing, and that will require the Talent of the Voice--the words themselves are not important, and just like a human could sit around all day repeating Loial's songs to no effect, so would a person without the Voice sit and seed sing with no effect.

 

It might be that someone discovers they have the Voice, and certainly it would be very beneficial concidering the pestilence and famine in the land today, but it won't do anything spectacular--if it didn't in the Age of Legends then it won't now. It might even be that all it can really achieve is to grow food.

 

Dreadlord, it was in the prologue to TEOTW. Mad Lews Therin asked Ishameal if he had the "Voice", and referred to the "Singing", with a capital. It sounded to me like a religious rite, of whatever sort they had then. Also, remember when the Aiel were singing the fields with the ogier and the Nym, it sounded like something only one of the Aiel could do; at least a very special song.

 

It does have the feel of a rite to it, but i doubt it is something only the Aiel can do, else Lews Therin would not have asked Ishamael.

[Dreadlady]

Sorry..

 

Those were two separate thoughts. I didn't mean that what the Aiel were doing was the same as the "Singing", just that this was what the breakaway Aiel remembered.

[Aemon raHal]

Well, again, the Shaido can't be the remnant... the prophecy makes clear that the remnant will be saved by Rand's direct action--'and the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live.'

 

Well that's the thing about Prophecy.... it's all a lttle vague and so very difficult to say what can and can't be.

 

The prophesy doesn't make anything clear.

Of course it can be the Shaido.

 

If he destroys the rest of the Aiel, he saves the Shaido.

 

 

Ok, on the other hand it may not be the Shaido that's referred to in the Prophesy, as deduced from further investigtion  - but the Prophesy itself does not make that clear.

 

[RAND AL THOR]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I am now more doubtful than ever about the final outcome for the Aiel.

 

I had another query: Why did Rand reveal that the Aiel followed the Way of the Leaf? It seems obvious that it was to convince the clan chiefs that HE was the Car'a'carn and not Couladin. However, it is apparent that Rand planned this long before arriving at the Golden Bowl. He tells mat in a previous chapter: I'm going to break the rules like no-ones expects.'

 

This suggests that he was already planning on revealing the Way of the Leaf. Hence, it cannot have been a desperate act to prove himself as the Car'a'carn. What do'u think?

[aevogt]

Whats left of the Shaido are now making their way across the westlands in the hopes of returning to the three fold land. 

 

Before they get there, they are ambused by the first wave of trollocs pouring out of the Blight and they all wind up in cookpots with Therava saved for last.

 

I tend to agree with Luckers.  The remnant is simply what will be left of the modern day Aiel after TG.

 

The part of that prophecy that has always bothered me is the sand reference.

 

In the Waste, water is precious and would never spilled on sand which seems to be at odds with how the Aiel so willingly march to their deaths, which they see as waking from the dream that is life.

 

[Luckers]

I had another query: Why did Rand reveal that the Aiel followed the Way of the Leaf? It seems obvious that it was to convince the clan chiefs that HE was the Car'a'carn and not Couladin. However, it is apparent that Rand planned this long before arriving at the Golden Bowl. He tells mat in a previous chapter: I'm going to break the rules like no-ones expects.'

 

This suggests that he was already planning on revealing the Way of the Leaf. Hence, it cannot have been a desperate act to prove himself as the Car'a'carn. What do'u think?

 

Well, he had to forestall Couladin before the man had time to win the hearts of the algai'd'siswai--convincing the chiefs or not, what lies in a mans heart is important.

 

But beyond that it was in the Karaetheon Cycle. 'He shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf'. 'from the city, lost and forsaken, leads the spears to war once more, breaks the spears and makes them see, truth long hidden in the ancient dream.'

 

Remember Rand spent several weeks reading and re-reading the Cycle just prior to this. The second he saw the truth of the Aiel history it would have been clear to him what he was supposed to do.

 

[Great Lord of the Dark]

I believe that the Tinkers are a remenent of the Jenn, and a remnent of them will be saved

[Luckers]

The Tinkers left before the name Jenn was coined. And the prophecy cannot refer to them--they don't call themselves Aiel.

[RAND AL THOR]

Luckers, they dont NEED to call themselves Aiel. If you are british and say ' Hey I'm not british' does that make you an american? Without knowing, the tinkers are the descendants of the original Aiel and they resemble them most accurately by the aspect that they still follow the Way of the Leaf.

 

The present 'Aiel' only resemble the Da'shain in appearance.