Setalle Anan

[Guest tree-brother]

I once thought that she burnt herself out be after a reread of A CROWN OF SWORDS I think other wises. I find this statement and I wonder if she was stilled.  "Setalle" Garenia exclaimed as soon as the innkeeper was gone. "That was Senalle Anan? How did she-? Light of Heaven! Even after seventy years, the Tower would-" What does everyone think?

[Vemynal]

Its a possibility, one that I hadn't thought of.

 

For me that last bit reads more "Even after seventy years" (she's alive?!?!)"the Tower would" (love to figure out how she has survived so long).

 

 

[42Bonzo88]

    A definite possibility. Siuan used finding the rebels to carry on helping the cause, to keep her alive. Leanne was going to change her way of life completely if she had to to remain alive.

 

    Setalle gets stilled, and thrown out of the tower. She ends up in Ebou Dar and marries a wonderful man, has kids, and has a tavern to run. If those things aren't enough resons to carry on, I don't know what would.

[Dashiva]

i wonder if what happened to Setalle Anan 70 years ago has any relation to Verin's 70 year remark?

[Majsju]

We got hints before, but I would say KOD pretty muchs nails her as Martine Janata, the Aes Sedai who burned herself out studying ter'angreal.

[bjclinton]

We got hints before, but I would say KOD pretty muchs nails her as Martine Janata, the Aes Sedai who burned herself out studying ter'angreal.

 

Hey Maj- i'm on my first reread in about 5 years- still on book 7...

 

would you mind elaborating on what hints you're referring to as well as how the connection would be made since those two names are very different? I definitely have seen that her knowledge of the WT in the chapter where she drags Elayne and Nynaeve to the Kin is clearly that of someone who has spent considerable time there. Anyway, thanks for elaborating if you can!

 

For the record, i'm actually almost finished with Book 7, so she was introduced about mid-way through this book. I assumed that she was burned, but couldn't come up with anyone in particular. I ruled out stilling since the White Tower probably wouldn't allow a woman who had been stilled to live freely in the very city where the Kin reside. Also, I would imagine someone that had been stilled would harbor resentment towards the WT and Aes Sedai.

 

Her will to live can also be attributed to the fact that in addition to having a family and successful livelihood, she is still very indirectly connected to and helping out wielders of the OP in her own fashion and gets an incredible amount of respect.

[Luckers]

The seventy years probably refers to Gareina herself, who ran away exactly seventy years ago.

 

The connection between Martine and Setelle is in timing. Martine was burned out and disapeared roughly three years before Setelle showed up in Ebou Dar. Furthermore the sequence in which Vandene spoke of Martine comes too closely after we first realise that Setelle is more than she appears.

 

But as Maj says the evidence in KoD in the strongest. The way she reacts to Mat's ter'angreal, her knowledge of it--all speak of a women who has a big thing about ter'angreal, which was ultimately Martine's downfall.

 

And yes, she herself links her survival with the meeting of her husband Jasfer.

[trakand_01]

Do you think she will be recognised by, say, Verin?

 

 

[aussie_ashaman123]

I doubt it, no one recognised siuan and leane bare months after they were stilled, and Satelle survived a lot longer. Besides, neither Teslyn and Jolene have recognised her, theyre both sitters, so have to be old enough to remember her. I could be wrong, Im guessing Martine was brown, and someone who was close to her may notice the similar patterns of behaviour and make the connection

[balefireruinssteaks]

I thought Joline almost DID recognize her.  Some Aes Sedai makes a comment something like "do I know you?  sometimes when the light is just so..."

 

but the changes that come from being stilled or maybe burned out would make it more difficult to recognize her right out. 

 

Also, novices are expected to know the names of all the women who were stilled, and Setalle Anan would be recognized by the Kin and anyone if she were on the list of those who were stilled for some offence.  It's more likely that she is indeed the Aes Sedai who was burned out.

 

Now the question is...can one be Healed from being burned out just like one can be Healed from being stilled...since being stilled is a "cutting" off from the One Power and being burned out is the searing of ones' ability altogether!!!

[Luckers]

At first we'd be inclined to say no given burning out seems more... complete than stilling. Seapite that, though, it seems likely. Flinn managed to heal Irgain, Sashelle and Ronaille--and despite the fact that Rand did was done intentionall, and thus was later termed by characters to be stilling, it was not the sharp-knife cut that Nynaeve describes--he crushed them in fists of spirit. Thats being burned out irrespective of whether it happened accidentally.

 

Then we have Cyndane, almost certainly burned out and healed by a woman....

 

Yes, it seems likely.

[balefireruinssteaks]

I hadn't thought of Cyndane being burned out, but if she was Healed by a woman I think her power level would be significantly reduced even beyond what she is now.  Cyndane bests Graendal and at least equals the other Forsaken (save Ishamael/Moridin) but is considered less in power than Lanfear was. 

 

Given that Siuan Sanche was considered one of the most powerful channelers and then after being Healed she is bested by most of the Accepted and possibly some novices...it seems like there must be another explanation for Cyndane's power change.

 

I don't think Rand burned the ability out of Sashelle, Irgaine and the other one.  I think being burned out is more like the One Power being so intense inside of you that it sears the ability right out of you.  If the resulting burn out does not kill you out right (i.e. Lews Therin's power eruption at the beginning of the Eye of the World) then the ability is literally destroyed inside of you.  So it seems to me that there would be nothing TO Heal, rather than merge a cut as in stilling.  Stilling is the severing of one's ability to access their ability so to speak.  Burn out is literally that, it burns the ability right out of you altogether.

[Elwinn Taron]

Luckers has, in the past, posted a very well detailed and thought-out theory on why Cyndane is still strong in the power, but weaker than she was.  It has to do with percentages.  Trust me, it's great.  Maybe he will be kind and post a link to it?

[Alexius]

it was not the sharp-knife cut that Nynaeve describes--he crushed them in fists of spirit. Thats being burned out irrespective of whether it happened accidentally.

Couldn't that be just the difference between a man and a woman channelling? After all, we have examples of other weaves which do the same thing but are woven differently (men and women Travelling).

 

And as for Setalle having been stilled, aren't stilled women normally kept in the Tower as servants rather than being thrown out? I know stilled ex-Amyrlins are (somewhere we hear about what happened to Tetsuan and Bonwhin), but does that extend to others?

[Luckers]

I hadn't thought of Cyndane being burned out, but if she was Healed by a woman I think her power level would be significantly reduced even beyond what she is now.  Cyndane bests Graendal and at least equals the other Forsaken (save Ishamael/Moridin) but is considered less in power than Lanfear was. 

 

Given that Siuan Sanche was considered one of the most powerful channelers and then after being Healed she is bested by most of the Accepted and possibly some novices...it seems like there must be another explanation for Cyndane's power change.

 

Firstly, Siuan wasn't one of the most powerful channelers, she was one of the most powerful Aes Sedai. A significant but important distinction. Secondly, Siuan is still above the cut off strength to become Aes Sedai--indeed, we've met six Aes Sedai who are weaker than Siuan.

 

Here is an extract from another post I made about this. The original post, called the Mysteries of Cyndane, is somewhere about and covered a couple of other things--such as why the Finns did not do it, and why the Dark One having done it was extremely unlikely, but here is the part that is being questioned here. I included the premise on how we know she was severed, but its long winded so i emboldened and centred the part on the degree of her decline in strength re: Siuan and Leane.

 

4. Cyndane was severed from the Source, and healed by a woman.

 

This one is a little more convoluted, so I will handle it in parts.

 

The Circumstances in Cairhein

 

When we last saw Lanfear she stood channeling through an angreal that Moiraine clawed out of her hands as they both fell through a ter’angreal which subsequently exploded. From the beginning of the series we have been warned time and again of the dangers of channeling near ter’angreal. Add to that the fight over the angreal and the transportation to a different reality, and the likelihood that they weren’t both burned out becomes slim.

 

Beyond that, at that exact moment Lan’s bond to Moiraine was snapped, and as far as we’ve seen only two things cause a bond to snap—death and the Aes Sedai being severed from the True Source. Since we know Moiraine did not die (as of Knife of Dreams), than that leaves the possibility of being severed.

 

Now, as a side point, some suggest that the bond was severed when the passage between the two realities was severed, and yet there is still a passage between the real world, and the realm of the Finns in existence. Still, there is nothing to directly preclude this as a possibility.

 

A final piece of evidence can be found in the fact that the Finns managed to hold Moiraine and Lanfear (which we know they did between Moiraine’s letter in KoD and Lanfear’s comment in Winter’s Heart). We also know that channeling works against the Finns as a deterent since Rand manages to hold the Finn of with his fiery sword. So, the question is this: If Moiraine and Lanfear weren’t severed, how did the Finns manage to hold them? Both possessed their own angreal, and both would have been at least somewhat aware of how to deal with the Finn’s (fire, music, iron). Indeed, it’s likely Lanfear even knew of the Tower of Ghenjei, and the way out of Finnland. So how did the Finns contain these two powerful channelers?

 

Some suggest the Finns have the ability to break weaves of the Power, as with Mat’s ter’angreal. Yet the presence of the Aes Sedai symbol small as the foxes eye on that ter’angreal suggest it was made by the Aes Sedai for the Finns, not the other way round. Moreover, Cyndane’s shock upon encountering a similar ter’angreal when she was fighting Alivia essentially prove that she had never encountered anything of the sort prior to that event.

 

How did Cyndane Come to be Healed?

 

So, we know that after being held for a time, Lanfear died and was recycled into a new body. From Aran’gar we know that a person’s channeling state follows the soul through the transmigration progress, so if Lanfear were severed from the source, then she would have returned to life still severed from the source.

 

Some claim this would not be the case, citing Robert Jordan’s comment that if a person is severed from the Source they will be whole and complete when they are next reborn, but it should be remembered that the transmigration process is not rebirth, again, as proved by Aran’gar.

 

So, if Cyndane were returned to life severed, how would the Shadow react? At this stage Moghedian had just been brought to Shayol Goul, and even if she didn’t inform the Shadow of Nynaeve’s discovery, the fact that the Shadow knew to rescue her show that they are keeping close eyes on the Rebel Aes Sedai, and the likelihood that such a marvel as a way to heal being severed had not reached Moridin’s ears is very slim.

 

Now this was prior to Finn’s discovery, so the Shadow had no way of knowing that a man would heal a woman to full strength, so the obvious and logical option for the Shadow, rather than leave one of the Forsaken unable to channel, would be to summon a Black Sister to heal Cyndane… for even a weakened Chosen is better than a severed Chosen.

 

From there the function of the healing is easy. A dream message to Aran’gar and a Black ‘Yellow’ Sister sent to Shayol Goul by gateway. It would not have even aroused any suspicion, because as Siuan observes, at any one time up to twenty sisters are off elsewhere in the world attending to other matters.

 

The Discrepancies Between the Loss of Strength

 

The most vehement argument against Cyndane having been severed, and healed by a woman is that Siuan and Leane lost such a large amount of strength, whilst Cyndane only lost a little. But is everything what it appears to be?

 

Firstly, how much did Cyndane lose? We know that she is stronger than Graendal, and that even if Graendal’s beliefs about her own strengths are self-delusions, as RJ suggests most of the Forsaken’s beliefs about their own strength comparative to others are, we still know that Graendal is very strong—indeed, without the angreal Graendal was still stronger than Someryn, who had never encountered anyone stronger than she amongst the thousands of Aiel Wise Ones who could channel.

 

For very rough perception, lets say that Lanfear was a hundred. If Graendal is an 85 or an 80, Lanfear could have lost 10 to 15 units of strength, and still be stronger than Graendal. At 85 there would not be many women the world over who topped Graendal. But is this comparable to what Siuan and Leane lost?

 

Now, the first thing that we must remember in dealing with Siuan and Leane is that there situation is distorted by the Aes Sedai social hierarchy. People speak of them having lost ‘half their strength’ citing their own comments as evidence, but lets actually have a look at what they say.

 

“If Nynaeve couldn’t heal us all the way the first time, then maybe she can take us to two-thirds what we were. Or even half. Even that would be better than now, but still here many would be as strong, and a good many stronger.”

[LoC: 30 – To Heal Again – 617]

 

Now, I draw your attention first of all to the fact that when they speak of returning to two thirds, or half of what they were, they are not speaking of their over all strength, but rather of the strength they lost. Effectively their current strength is zero, and their top strength is a hundred. The two-thirds and half are referring to the gap in between their current strength and their old strength.

 

So, the comment itself is not readily presenting us with an qualitative position on their strength, as people assume. In face, all that we know is that their current strength is bellow the average strength of Aes Sedai in Salidar, and that that average stands roughly half way between their current strength, and their full strength.

 

So, what can we state absolutely about their new strength? Well, as of CoT we can state that their strength is above the cut off strength for becoming Aes Sedai.

 

Akkarin was not strong in the Power, little more than Siuan, if at all, but only one other of the six, Therva, a slim woman in yellow slashed riding skirts and a cloak edged in yellow, stood even as high as she.

[CoT: 19 – Surprises – 459]

 

So we have two women around Siuan’s strength, and four who are weaker. Add Daigian and Elise Worrel and of the twenty-two Aes Sedai we have strength related comments about, six are weaker than Siuan.

 

Why is this significant? Because if Siuan and Leane are still within the range of Aes Sedai strength than a) they did not lose more than half their strength, and b) their strength attains an immediate judgment within the social hierarchy in reference to their old strength and position.

 

Lets take at what that hierarchy and judgment reflects. So, the social hierarchy represents a very limited range of strengths. According to RJ [insert proper quote] the Aes Sedai cut off point is at the 36.2 percentile which establishes the bottom limit for the social range, whilst the upper limit is established by Siuan’s previous strength, where Romanda and Lelaine now sit (note: I exclude Cadsuane and the Wonder Girls because they are outliers; the former is thought dead and the latter aren’t truly included in the Aes Sedai range by most Aes Sedai due to the way they were raised).

 

Again, on a very rough chart lets say for the purpose of consideration that Siuan’s former strength was 60, that means the social hierarchy range includes less than 30% of the range of channeling strengths. Therefore, even a minute loss of strength would result in a fairly large decrease of social standing. If Siuan and Leane lost the same degree of strength as Lanfear (10 to 15 units) than yes, they would experience the loss of social standing stated. Beyond that, keeping in mind that RJ has stated that the Aes Sedai strength distribution is not even it also allows for the average to be roughly half way between their new and old strengths.

 

At this stage many people raise the fact that Siuan was unable to lift Gareth Bryne, thereby proving what a massive decrease in strength she suffered, yet in that exact sentence Siuan goes on to admit that lifting things with the power were amongst the hardest things that could be done. Furthermore, at the end of CoT we see Leane weave Mask of Mirrors, create Cuendillar and disguise her ability all at the same time proving that whatever strength these women lost, they are far from being ineffective channelers.

 

 

 

I don't think Rand burned the ability out of Sashelle, Irgaine and the other one.  I think being burned out is more like the One Power being so intense inside of you that it sears the ability right out of you.  If the resulting burn out does not kill you out right (i.e. Lews Therin's power eruption at the beginning of the Eye of the World) then the ability is literally destroyed inside of you.  So it seems to me that there would be nothing TO Heal, rather than merge a cut as in stilling.  Stilling is the severing of one's ability to access their ability so to speak.  Burn out is literally that, it burns the ability right out of you altogether.

 

Keep in mind that that is what Rand did to them. Using fists of spirits he crushed a weave they were maintaining, putting such strain on their abilities that they were seared out of them. And yes, it is a more complete process--but despite that, seemingly still healable.

 

Luckers has, in the past, posted a very well detailed and thought-out theory on why Cyndane is still strong in the power, but weaker than she was.  It has to do with percentages.  Trust me, it's great.  Maybe he will be kind and post a link to it?

 

Haha. Thanks. I extracted it because im too lazy to look it up. heh.

 

Quote from: Luckers on April 19, 2008, 08:25:02 AM

it was not the sharp-knife cut that Nynaeve describes--he crushed them in fists of spirit. Thats being burned out irrespective of whether it happened accidentally.

 

Couldn't that be just the difference between a man and a woman channelling? After all, we have examples of other weaves which do the same thing but are woven differently (men and women Travelling).

 

We've witnessed a male shield, and it works on the same premise as a female, a sharp plane slicing through the flow. It seems incongruent that the methodology would change at that point. Remember too that he did not sever them--not directly--he crushed a weave they were maintaining at the place where they were holding it.

 

 

[mabbott74]

Wait.  So if Setalle were the AS who was burned out.  That happened 70 years ago, right?  I don't recall Setalle being described as looking anywhere close to 70.  Considering that if she went back to looking 20 when she was burned out, that would make her 90.  So, even if you are burned out/stilled, you obviously have some connection to the power that effects your aging (which no one would know since no one has ever been reported living very long after the event).  Enless I'm misreading this entirely about the 70 year thing.

[aevogt]

Here are the relevent chapters and the timeline

 

Circa 935 NE - Shortly after being raised to Aes Sedai Martine begins her study of ter'angreal. (TPoD,Ch2)

 

Circa 975 NE - After forty years of study she is stilled by an unknown ter'angreal. She disappears from the White Tower. (TPoD,Ch2)

 

Vandene tells Elayne the burning out incident with Martine occured 25 years ago to set the timeline.

 

Circa 978 NE - Martine Janata makes her way to Ebou Dar. Jasfer Anan finds her on the streets near starvation and takes her home. She marries him and starts a new life as Setalle Anan. (KoD,Ch7, KoD,Ch9)

 

 

 

[trakand_01]

She was stilled by the ter'angreal, or burned out by trying to use it?

 

If a ter'angreal exists which has the ability to physically still a female channeler then I suggest someone spend some time trying to find it... and give it to Semi as a toy.

[Luckers]

No, she was burned out. To date we know of no ter'angreal the stills a person.

[Alexius]

She was stilled by the ter'angreal, or burned out by trying to use it?

 

If a ter'angreal exists which has the ability to physically still a female channeler then I suggest someone spend some time trying to find it... and give it to Semi as a toy.

What I think happens in such cases is that the ter'angreal draws Power through the user, and if she doesn't know how to stop it (which Third Age AS don't) it will draw too much and burn her out. Forsaken, however, would be used to using such things, so would either know how to use it safely, or would realise that some other device is needed to provide a buffer. After all, Cadsuane's comments about Callandor make it seem like you can't burn yourself out while using an angreal, as the buffer will stop you drawing too much.

 

Incidentally, can a sul'dam force a damane to draw too much and burn herself out?

[Luckers]

Incidentally, can a sul'dam force a damane to draw too much and burn herself out?

 

Yes. In a normal link you cannot, but RJ specifically stated that when a damane is burned out she cannot be held by an a'dam indicating that it does happen, and in tSR Nynaeve draws upon Moghedian to the edge of burning her out.

[bjclinton]

Wait.  So if Setalle were the AS who was burned out.  That happened 70 years ago, right?  I don't recall Setalle being described as looking anywhere close to 70.  Considering that if she went back to looking 20 when she was burned out, that would make her 90.  So, even if you are burned out/stilled, you obviously have some connection to the power that effects your aging (which no one would know since no one has ever been reported living very long after the event).  Enless I'm misreading this entirely about the 70 year thing.

 

i've often wondered this myself. if she had been burned out, whats up with her aging?

[Elgee]

It didn't happen 70 years previously - Zerenia (I think) just mentioned that because that's when SHE last saw her.

[Luckers]

Incidently i discovered a quote that proves Setelle wasn't stilled. Nynaeve cites in LoC (the Storm Gathers) that it had been 140 years since the last Aes Sedai was stilled, prior to Leane and Siuan.