Does anyone know?

[kleribituc]

Who taught Moiraine the weave for balefire?

[Guest tree-brother]

I think she was doing research on the dragon reborn and pieced things together

[Loseria]

It could be like what happened with Nynaeve when they were locked up in the early books, she used Balefire w/o knowing how to(she was then saved by some aiel roaming around at the same time xP). Moraine being more trained at the time was able to recall the weave she made and was able to use it from then on.

 

*totally speculation btw, I might even be wrong about Nynaeve using it then (only done one read thru)

[icspots]

I think it's more likely that she pieced the weave together through research of the books that Vandene and Adeleas had, or from wherever else she spent her time at that point.  As far as we know Moiraine wasn't faced with any sudden "I need to make a weave to protect myself or I'm going to die" scenerios before she used it on the darkhounds, and she was obviously plannning on using it on them prior to actually weaving it.

[Thorum]

Wasn't it mentioned somewhere it was one of the "secret weaves" from her Ajah?

[Rahlian]

I am 99% certain it is not a secret Blue weave. She said (in tDR or tSR, I think, cant remember) that balefire is forbidden knowledge, something which she could be stilled for knowing. One thing that bugs me is, there are quite a few people who see her use it, but none of the other Aes Sedai ever make mention of it. I would think that a rumor of how she killed Be'lal would have reached someone's eyes and ears, rather than she just did.

[Luckers]

I'll throw in the extra percent. It's not a Blue Weave.

 

I too think she pieced it together from information in Vandene and Adeleas' library. Certainly we've seen Egwene do as much with the creation of Cuendillar, so we know its possible to figure our weaves from a description only--and on top of that we don't know what happened to Moiraine during the end of tGH--excepting that she was involved in fighting. My guess would be that she first used Balefire there.

[aussie_ashaman123]

Nynaeve used Balefire before Morraine did, in TDR. TShe used it on the Myrdraal.

[Aemon raHal]

Yeah, was just going to reply about Nynaeve (read that chapter last night).

 

She used balefire without ever hearing it (as far as we know) until Aviendha mentioned it the chapter before (without a description).

 

And Rand used it too in TDR - and I don't know where he heard of it either....

 

[bjclinton]

Personally, I believe that she is way to schooled and calculated to stumble across an offensive weave w/out even realizing what she was doing....unless she's known for many years. I guess its possible that she could have learned it in her early years with Lan. Maybe we'll see that in the Prequels. Thats the only time I can see her "stumbling" across a weave.

 

She's too deliberate in her actions even under the most intense situations. I also believe that through research she has figured out a way to recreate the balefire weave.

[Luckers]

I don't see her having stumbled over the weave either. Her actions prior to balefiring the Darkhounds are too concidered--she knew she was capable of this, and she planned directly to use it. It doesn't match what we witness with Nynaeve, or Rand for that matter.

 

Her comments to Perrin suggest that she learnt it after Emmonds Field--she directly states that she has become more dangerous, and cites her knowledge as a prelude to taking on Be'lal. Certainly her comment is open to interpretation, but why dissemble about that? And why, if she knew balefire, did she not use on Aginor at the Eye of the World?

[BrainFireBob]

I'm of the school of thought she learned it from Vandene, and that it's a Green Ajah secret weave.

[bjclinton]

I'm of the school of thought she learned it from Vandene, and that it's a Green Ajah secret weave.

 

Can you be more specific on your theory? Why Vandene? I'd be interested in reading what you're basing this theory on. Thanks!

[BrainFireBob]

Few bits.

 

First off, if any Ajah did retain it despite the ban, it would be Greens- remember, Rand mentions that he thinks some Shadowspawn won't be killed by anything short of balefire.

 

Cadsuane recognizes it when Rand uses it in front of her.

 

Moiraine does not use it on Aginor and Balthamel in Eye, and in Dragon Reborn tells Perrin that "she's learned things, and is more dangerous" than she was in the Two Rivers.

 

Well, she did her "learning" and researching at Adeleas and Vandene's, and it's Vandene that takes a personal interest in Moiraine. I'd guess that Moiraine's research, coupled with rumors, coupled with a warded Draghkar, screamed "Forsaken" to Vandene- and that she then taught Moiraine.

 

It's the timeline that cinches it.

[Luckers]

It's possible, but there are some problems. For instance why didn't the Greens with Liandrin use it--they used the balefire rod, so clearly they didn't have much of an issue with it. Jeanie Caide uses the rod despite its dangers, and she was once a Green. And in the battle in KoD Asne, again a Green, uses the rod despite its dangers.

 

Possibly its something know only to the older Greens, though, that would make Cadsuane's reaction a bit strange. She slaps Rand for using it--that doesn't sound to me much like a attitude of permissability is fostered amongst the Greens.

 

One way or another I believe she must have learnt it at Vandene and Adeleas' hideaway. I fall more in line with her figuring it out from a description in a book--her pensiveness before using it feels like that to me, and we know such is possible--but yours is possible too.

 

 

 

 

[Vemynal]

hmm...Well we know that balefire is kinda the ultimate attack in WoT...considering that I'd think that it would require a certain level of stregth to preform (total speculation on my part) and that maybe thse greens lacked the strength.

 

A reason for caddy's reaction could be the situation in which he used it, which I do not recall. If it was used on any shadowspawn who it would not require for them to be killed then perhaps the Green ajah has some sort of ban on the weave. Like it can be only used on certain shadowspwn.

 

Then again I think it more likely that Moraine pieced it together from what she read.

[aussie_ashaman123]

[

It's possible, but there are some problems. For instance why didn't the Greens with Liandrin use it--they used the balefire rod, so clearly they didn't have much of an issue with it. Jeanie Caide uses the rod despite its dangers, and she was once a Green. And in the battle in KoD Asne, again a Green, uses the rod despite its dangers.

 

I never made that connection, the 2 former greens using the rod. That does lend credibility to the idea of a secret green ajah weave. It is possible the former greens who stole away with liandrin took it with them because they were not strong enough to do anything more with balerfire than trim toenails.

[Majsju]

A reason for caddy's reaction could be the situation in which he used it, which I do not recall. If it was used on any shadowspawn who it would not require for them to be killed then perhaps the Green ajah has some sort of ban on the weave. Like it can be only used on certain shadowspwn.

 

When Cadsuane slaps Rand for using BF, and telling him to never use that again, it is against a bubble of evil that can not be stopped by any other weave. If that situation does not allow for BF, nothing short of standing face to face with the DO does.

[bronnt]

Personally, I think it was something she reasoned out from the texts she read while with Adeleas and Vandene.  I don't think many current Aes Sedai know it.  Cadsuane strikes me as one who would know many things that were beyond the scope of most other Aes Sedai, so I can believe that she knew it and did not share the weave with anyone else.

 

It seems obvious she learned this AFTER Emond's field, but obviously BEFORE she used it on the Darkhounds in Dragon Reborn.  The most signicant thing she did between these events is to study the ancient texts, and the history of the third age that V&A were composing.  I attribute the weave, then, to this time frame.  It's possible that either Vandene or Adeleas knew the weave, but neither of them ever use it.  Perhaps they knew it, taught it to Moiraine, but didn't use it themselves, but since we never actually seem them use it, it is a bit of a stretch to say that they DID know it.

[BrainFireBob]

Luckers-

 

Since Moiraine cannot manage much balefire, and she's one of the strongest in the Tower, the fact the Green sisters used the rod isn't a solid counter-point to my mind. It very easily could be like Sorilea and Traveling- they all know how, but few of them can manage it.

[Luckers]

hmm...Well we know that balefire is kinda the ultimate attack in WoT...considering that I'd think that it would require a certain level of stregth to preform (total speculation on my part) and that maybe thse greens lacked the strength.

 

A reason for caddy's reaction could be the situation in which he used it, which I do not recall. If it was used on any shadowspawn who it would not require for them to be killed then perhaps the Green ajah has some sort of ban on the weave. Like it can be only used on certain shadowspwn.

 

Mm, we don't have any indication that it requires strength, but its possible. But Cadsuane's reaction was pretty strong. She slaps him and says "'You will not do that again.' there was no heat in her voice, just iron. 'Do you hear me? Not balefire. Not ever.'"

 

Thats pretty damn firm. Not ever.

 

I never made that connection, the 2 former greens using the rod. That does lend credibility to the idea of a secret green ajah weave. It is possible the former greens who stole away with liandrin took it with them because they were not strong enough to do anything more with balerfire than trim toenails.

 

I was actually saying that that stands against the suggestion of a secret weave. If they knew it, they would have used it over the rod which we know to be more than deadly. As for strength, maybe, though Egwene lists Jeanie Caide as being quite strong.

 

Since Moiraine cannot manage much balefire, and she's one of the strongest in the Tower, the fact the Green sisters used the rod isn't a solid counter-point to my mind. It very easily could be like Sorilea and Traveling- they all know how, but few of them can manage it.

 

Moiraine can manage balefire just fine. She killed Be'lal didn't she? The effects are limited by her strength, but she did it anyway. And Jeanie Caide is quite strong in the Power herself. Furthermore if you are suggesting that it requires Moiraine's strength to at least work, than that rules out every Green except Cadsuane, and she has shown her position on it. "Not ever!" Kind of a pointless secret weave--especially as a forbidden one that might well see them stilled.

 

But yes, its possible--we have no evidence to sustain it--but its possible.

[bjclinton]

The biggest problem that i have with this theory is that there is just no proof- its idle speculation...with most theories in the series, we at least have some type of clue, quote, etc.

 

Not with an "Ajah's secret weave" though. Acceping that an entire Ajah has a secret weave- one that is forbidden and almost unraveled the actual wheel of time itself at one point and was so dangerous that even the Forsaken stopped using it, seems incredulous to me.

[BrainFireBob]

Well, considering that all the Ajahs have secret weaves, it becomes much less far-fetched.

[aevogt]

According to Egwene, any two sisters linked are strong enough to make the Traveling Weave work so why wouldn't they be strong enough linked to weave BF.  Since Adelas and Vandene were apparently strong enough, linked, to shove two other women through a second story window in Ebou Dar, they could certainly make the Traveling weaves work if they were linked, although possibly not big enough to step through.

 

It stands to reason that if the greenish/black sisters had known the weave for Balefire, they would have been able to link and use it safer than the Black Rod. 

 

Further, just as Alviarin knows every ajah secret by right of her position as head of the Supreme council, she would know all the secret weaves of all the Ajahs.  If the black sisters are giving up the "secret" head of their ajah, how could they keep the secret weaves to themselves.  We have no indication that Alviarin knows or knew the weave for BF.

 

We also saw Rand utilize very thin weaves of Balefire while killing trollocs at the end of TFoH, which couldn't have needed more than a trickle of the OP to make.

[Harmless Bandit]

I never understood Cadsuane's extreme firmness about balefire. Oh, I know it's dangerous, and Rand certainly knows it, but some situations seem to call for it. For instance, if Rand had not balefired those hounds, Mat would most likely have died. I can't think of any other weave that could have saved them. What if such situation arises again?

 

Has Rand ever used it again since Cadsuane slapped him?