Graendal's strength

[Darian]

It seems to me that out of all the forsakens, Graendal has been the only one that hasn't blundered or has been reduced in pride.  when she fought against verin in Winter's Heart she was really careful to shield herself and invert her weaves...I think she will prove a formidable opponent to Rand, whats ur take on it?

[42Bonzo88]

    I agree. Graendal's been one that has been masked in mystery other than her dealings with Sammael. What is funny, to me I think that even though Sammael made her look like a servant in front of the Shaido, I think that Graendal was still in more control of the situation or she would be able to get out if she thought she was in danger.

    The biggest danger I think that Graendal will be to the light is her cunning and intelligence. Lanfear was stronger in power, but her control wasn't near that of Graendal and it became her downfall. Graendal is always in control and will look after herself better than most of the forsaken.

 

[Guest tree-brother]

Graendal's way is being the power behide the power not open confortain. I think she'll be the easiest to knock off of the forsaken

[Harmless Bandit]

I wouldn't go as far as saying that she hasn't blundered or lost some of her pride. And no doubt about it she is a formidable opponent. But even with inverted weaves, channelers seem to sense or feel them somehow, so they are not as advantageous as they sound.

 

If you are talking about going head to head unaided with Rand, Graendal knows better than that. She herself has said (or thought about it) that she would not do it, and it's not just because he has taken so many of her colleagues out of the game. He is substantially stronger than her, and if Rand felt he could overwhelm Lanfear; I see no reason why he could not do the same with Graendal.

 

But don't read too much into my words; I believe she would avoid confrontation as long as she felt she didn't have the upper hand (which is one of her weaknesses, I would say), but if she was cornered, she would give one hell of a fight.

[bronnt]

I think one of her advantages is having been among the first Forsaken.  Of those who remain I think only Lanfear and Semirhage turned before, though the timeline of the WoP is somewhat sketchy developed.  But having been serving the shadow longer gives her the advantage of manipulating what the other Forsaken think about her, so they underestimate her at times, or dismiss her.  She isolates herself from others (except for Sammael) so they don't really know what's she up to.  She, on the other hand, does a good job of reading what the others are doing and what their motives are.  I don't think this necessarily makes her a bigger threat, she just has an advantage with internal politics among the Forsaken.

[Charlz Guybon]

    I agree. Graendal's been one that has been masked in mystery other than her dealings with Sammael. What is funny, to me I think that even though Sammael made her look like a servant in front of the Shaido, I think that Graendal was still in more control of the situation or she would be able to get out if she thought she was in danger.

    The biggest danger I think that Graendal will be to the light is her cunning and intelligence. Lanfear was stronger in power, but her control wasn't near that of Graendal and it became her downfall. Graendal is always in control and will look after herself better than most of the forsaken.

 

She isn't as strong as Lanfear/Cyndane, but she is stronger than any of the other female forsaken and she has an angreal. She is very dangerous indeed.

[Harmless Bandit]

I knew I had forgotten something; her angreal, it's that ring she wears, right? That definitely gives her an edge; none would suspect it. Added strength, plus surprise, a deadly combination. Unless she finds herself with someone with their own angreal, or the type Caddy or Nynaeve wear.

[trakand_01]

Someone suspected it - Demandred, I think it was. In the meeting that the Forsaken had in Book 9 while Rand was in Far Madding, someone (I'm SURE it was Demandred) thought to themselves that the ring seemed somewhat of an extravagance for Graendal who rarely wore more than the streith gowns she is so fond of. He suspected there to be a reason she was wearing it.

 

I think she's intelligent, and has the advantage of having been a psychologist - she is not so stupid as to go into something blind - she's very capable of assessing you, what you might do, and what she should do in return in order to manipulate you.

 

I dont think she'll go into open confrontation with Rand either, I think she and Moghedien will be the last left standing. In my opinion Moghedien is a coward, and Graendal is very sharp and astute. For different reasons they will avoid open confrontation wherever possible.

 

I think Nynaeve will do for Moggy but Graendal... what will be her downfall? She's a lover of beautiful things, that's her vice. She enjoys being surrounded by luxor and beauty... I can't help but think that somewhere along the lines that will be her downfall as RJ has put so much effort into describing it for us. We know she uses compulsion. I wonder if one of her 'pretties' will turn out to be too much for her?

 

Ituralde certainly would have a reason to seek out Alsalam, perhaps with his combined forces he'll cause trouble for her.

 

 

[Darian]

i read from somewhere that Graendal was not always so obsessed with beauty and the like; during the age of legends, she was actually the most chaiste and simple woman:  but after the drilling, she became the opposite of everything she was.  It stemmed from the realization that not everyone could match up to her simple standards, so she decides to take every pleasure to the fullest to mock everyone else.  and as for angreals, im sure Graendal could use the same technique in the dream world used by Nynaeve to search for them, i dont understand why the forsaken have so much trouble locating them when they are more experienced with the dream world.

[Nightstrike]

i read from somewhere that Graendal was not always so obsessed with beauty and the like; during the age of legends, she was actually the most chaiste and simple woman:  but after the drilling, she became the opposite of everything she was. 

 

I wonder if her change could have been caused by a circle of 13+13 myrdraal? It would be really cool if some of the Forsaken indeed was turned, and then could be turned back again.

[aevogt]

We don't know that the Chosen know how to use the "Need" function of TAR.  As with so many other things, I believe it to be a third age discovery, that of the Wise Ones, from their particular trials in The Waste. 

 

Personally, I believe the final confortation will be between Graendal and Aviendha.  Both are very strong.  G has an angreal of weak strenght and Avi has one of average strength so they should match up well.  Unlike many of the other characters, if Aviendha correctly ascertains the threat G poses, she'll kill her without compunction, which is no less than she deserves.

 

[bRANDan]

the ring seemed somewhat of an extravagance for Graendal who rarely wore more than the streith gowns she is so fond of

 

I believe it was for the opposite reason, the ring was very plain and everything else she wore was extravagant, so it stood out.

 

I also think that Avi will do for Greandal. Avi is unpredictable enough, due to the Aiel culture, that Greandal will be thrown off of her game trying to read into what Avi will do.

[Charlz Guybon]

i read from somewhere that Graendal was not always so obsessed with beauty and the like; during the age of legends, she was actually the most chaiste and simple woman:  but after the drilling, she became the opposite of everything she was.

 

I wonder if her change could have been caused by a circle of 13+13 myrdraal? It would be really cool if some of the Forsaken indeed was turned, and then could be turned back again.

The guide says she was the 2nd of the Forsaken to go to SG and swear fealty to the dark one.

[trakand_01]

the ring seemed somewhat of an extravagance for Graendal who rarely wore more than the streith gowns she is so fond of

 

I believe it was for the opposite reason, the ring was very plain and everything else she wore was extravagant, so it stood out.

 

I also think that Avi will do for Greandal. Avi is unpredictable enough, due to the Aiel culture, that Greandal will be thrown off of her game trying to read into what Avi will do.

 

It could well have been.

 

The only problem with Aviendha is that whilst WE think she is unpredictable (I am placing myself in the role of 'Wetlander' here), if you know anything of Aiel, she is very predictable indeed. If it weren't for Min's viewing, I would say that could be her downfall.

[Rahlian]

Keep in mind that the AoL Aiel were the serving class of the Aes Sedai. The Aiel of the Third Age are warlike, the best warriors on the planet. That being said, I think that if Graendal were to put a little time into studying the Aiel, she would go to town on Avi. But we havent seen any of the Forsaken show much interest in the Aiel society.

[bRANDan]

if Graendal were to put a little time into studying the Aiel, she would go to town on Avi. But we havent seen any of the Forsaken show much interest in the Aiel society.

 

Exactly. I don't think Greandal or any of the others really placed much importance on the Aiel. They may have a cursory knowledge of them, but I doubt they truly understand them. Greandal and Avi would be duelling it out when suddenly Avi would give a jumping kick to Greandal's pretty face. The last conscious thought Greandal would have would be Ohh, right. Old Aiel placid, new Aiel vicious.

 

The only problem with Aviendha is that whilst WE think she is unpredictable (I am placing myself in the role of 'Wetlander' here), if you know anything of Aiel, she is very predictable indeed. If it weren't for Min's viewing, I would say that could be her downfall.

 

I'm not so sure, look at Rand. He has probably the most hands-on knowledge of Aiel, from a foreigner viewpoint, and he barely understands the Aiel. Greandal may have a few Aiel Darkfriends in her service, but I don't think she'd learn much of their culture or beliefs from them. Learning these things would require studying Aiel in their natural state with everyday dealings and going-ons.

[General Cauthon]

Exactly. I don't think Greandal or any of the others really placed much importance on the Aiel. They may have a cursory knowledge of them, but I doubt they truly understand them. Greandal and Avi would be duelling it out when suddenly Avi would give a jumping kick to Greandal's pretty face. The last conscious thought Greandal would have would be Ohh, right. Old Aiel placid, new Aiel vicious.

 

If there's one thing the Forsaken would learn about the Aiel, it's that they are fierce warriors. None of the Forsaken is foolish enough to allow an Aiel to get close in a battle.

And Graendal would be dangerous in a fight, just look at how easily she defeated Moghedien and Cyndane when they came to inform her that Moridin was the Nae'blis. She was outnumbered 2-1, and atleast Cyndane was stronger then her in the Power.

 

Graendal, Semirhage, Demandred and Moridin are the most dangerous of the Forsaken, because they don't underestimate Rand. They're not afraid to face him, but they wait until they have the upper hand.

[Luckers]

I wonder if her change could have been caused by a circle of 13+13 myrdraal? It would be really cool if some of the Forsaken indeed was turned, and then could be turned back again.

 

That was discovered by Semirhage, and Semirhage joined the Shadow after Graendal.

 

She isn't as strong as Lanfear/Cyndane, but she is stronger than any of the other female forsaken and she has an angreal. She is very dangerous indeed.

 

Well we don't know that she is stronger than any of the other female Forsaken. She only states that Cyndane was stronger and that that was rare in the Age of Legends. In truth we have no idea where she fits compared to Semirhage or Mesaana--or for that matter, even Moghedian.

 

I dont think she'll go into open confrontation with Rand either, I think she and Moghedien will be the last left standing. In my opinion Moghedien is a coward, and Graendal is very sharp and astute. For different reasons they will avoid open confrontation wherever possible.

 

I think Nynaeve will do for Moggy but Graendal... what will be her downfall? She's a lover of beautiful things, that's her vice. She enjoys being surrounded by luxor and beauty... I can't help but think that somewhere along the lines that will be her downfall as RJ has put so much effort into describing it for us. We know she uses compulsion. I wonder if one of her 'pretties' will turn out to be too much for her?

 

Remember that a lot of what she does is for show. Frankly i dont see her investing enough in her 'pretties' for them to be her downfall. She's too rationale for that. Too self-contained and self-controlled.

 

Like others, i think it will be Aviendha who brings Graendal down--or at least stirs her out of Arad Domon. Aviendha has an angreal herself--and a much stronger one than Graendal, so their strengths are matched, plus Aviendha's had no real personal achievements. She's just been a bit... bleh.

 

Keep in mind that the AoL Aiel were the serving class of the Aes Sedai. The Aiel of the Third Age are warlike, the best warriors on the planet. That being said, I think that if Graendal were to put a little time into studying the Aiel, she would go to town on Avi. But we havent seen any of the Forsaken show much interest in the Aiel society.

 

Whilst i think that Graendal more than any of the other Forsaken is intelligent about not dismissing what the Third Agers are capable of, she'd misfire with Aviendha. Her training is not and has not been that of a typical Aiel Wise One, and if Graendal looks to that to judge her it would go wrong.

 

 

[Harmless Bandit]

Exactly. I don't think Greandal or any of the others really placed much importance on the Aiel. They may have a cursory knowledge of them, but I doubt they truly understand them. Greandal and Avi would be duelling it out when suddenly Avi would give a jumping kick to Greandal's pretty face. The last conscious thought Greandal would have would be Ohh, right. Old Aiel placid, new Aiel vicious.

 

If there's one thing the Forsaken would learn about the Aiel, it's that they are fierce warriors. None of the Forsaken is foolish enough to allow an Aiel to get close in a battle.

And Graendal would be dangerous in a fight, just look at how easily she defeated Moghedien and Cyndane when they came to inform her that Moridin was the Nae'blis. She was outnumbered 2-1, and atleast Cyndane was stronger then her in the Power.

 

It may be a moot point, but I would point out that Cyndane and Moghedien did absolutely nothing to defend themselves, they were not there to fight her. Thus why she was able to shield them so easily and use a bit of a forbidden weave on them. It's certainly a good show on her part, but it would have been another matter had they intended to confront her.

 

Graendal, Semirhage, Demandred and Moridin are the most dangerous of the Forsaken, because they don't underestimate Rand. They're not afraid to face him, but they wait until they have the upper hand.

 

That sounds kinda strange. They are certainly not stupid, but waiting to have the upper hand denotes a certain degree of fear. Like, they don't feel they could drive him away if they didn't have the upper hand.Or perhaps it's caution, I don't know.

 

And Moridin shouldn't be on that list. He is the one Forsaken (he and Lanfear) not afraid to approach Rand. He can match pretty much anything Rand would throw at him. Callandor et all aside, of course.

 

 

She isn't as strong as Lanfear/Cyndane, but she is stronger than any of the other female forsaken and she has an angreal. She is very dangerous indeed.

 

Well we don't know that she is stronger than any of the other female Forsaken. She only states that Cyndane was stronger and that that was rare in the Age of Legends. In truth we have no idea where she fits compared to Semirhage or Mesaana--or for that matter, even Moghedian.

 

This also puzzles me. Most posters seem to take in stride that Graendal is the second strongest female Forsaken (I still think she is). I honestly recall nothing of the books that would point me in one direction or another, but why is this assumption made?

[Nightstrike]

Most posters seem to take in stride that Graendal is the second strongest female Forsaken (I still think she is). I honestly recall nothing of the books that would point me in one direction or another, but why is this assumption made?

There's an interesting article under "Theory Post" at wotmania.com, which has the title "The comprehensive One Power strength theory, part 1". Lots of pieces are puzzled together there in a very impressive way, I think. But the author seems to be rather uncertain about exactly where to put Graendal. She ended up being approximated as the 2:nd strongest female Forsaken in that theory, despite the uncertainty. (There's a "part 2" theory as well).

[Charlz Guybon]

 

She isn't as strong as Lanfear/Cyndane, but she is stronger than any of the other female forsaken and she has an angreal. She is very dangerous indeed.

 

Well we don't know that she is stronger than any of the other female Forsaken. She only states that Cyndane was stronger and that that was rare in the Age of Legends. In truth we have no idea where she fits compared to Semirhage or Mesaana--or for that matter, even Moghedian.

 

I disagree, the way she says it implies that she is stronger than the others.

To quote the Wotmania FAQ, which I find very accurate.

 

http://wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=75

The next level down from Lanfear is, well, Lanfear again. Comments on her new strength as Cyndane show that she deserves a level of her own, being both weaker than her original strength and stronger than the rest of the female Forsaken.

...

    The girl was stronger in the One Power than she [Graendal] herself! Even in her own Age, that had been uncommon among men, and very rare indeed among women.

-The Path of Daggers, New Alliances

 

Graendal herself can be found on the next level.

The fact that Graendal says that women stronger than her are ‘very rare indeed’ makes it less likely that Semirhage and Mesaana are on par with her. The Forsaken were only the most powerful advocates of the Shadow, not the most powerful Aes Sedai. ‘Very rare indeed’ indicates that Graendal didn’t meet many people in her lifetime that could equal her. There is a certain amount of fudging here, but we think it’s an acceptable amount.

 

Alivia could also be placed at this level. She is certainly Forsaken strength and she is a good deal more powerful than Nynaeve.

 

Also Mesaana compares herself to Semirhage and finds her an equal. That she doesn't mention Graendal implies that she's stronger. If she was weaker they would treat her like Moghedian, but they don't, the other Chosen clearly respect her.

 

Mesaana knew her own strengths and weaknesses, with the One Power and elsewhere. She matched well with Semirhage on most points... Each Forsaken is stronger than any of these half-trained children that called themselves Aes Sedai today.

[Harmless Bandit]

Emphasis on 'very rare indeed'.

 

Obviously this is open to interpretation, but I find it unlikely that Graendal would use those words if at least three of her fellow colleagues were stronger than her.

 

And, indeed, the Forsaken tend to look down on those less powerful than them, and Graendal so far hasn't been given that treatment.

 

If anyone recall the scene where she and Sammael (disguised) had just messed up with the Shaido; Moridin is following them and at one point she disagrees with Sammael and it appears as if she is ready to battle it out with him. IIRC, Moridin thought that one of them would die there. I believe Sammael is very strong, but I also remember that Graendal has an angreal. The point though, is that Moridin doesn't know that (?), he knows the two of them well, and that he thinks she could kill Sammael says something about her.

[balefireruinssteaks]

Lanfear was talking to Rand in one of the earlier books and mentions how different the Aiel are than what they used to be.

 

"Slap a Dashain Aiel and he would ask what it was he did wrong.  Slap him all day and he would just continue to ask what he had done to offend you." 

 

that type of statement.  I think the Forsaken definitely understand that the Aiel are different but they probably underestimate them.  Perhaps they didn't look into the prophecies about Rand through the Aiel.

[Luckers]

I disagree, the way she says it implies that she is stronger than the others.

To quote the Wotmania FAQ, which I find very accurate.

 

Firstly, the Wotmania FAQ, whilst interesting if viewed as a rough over-viwer, is entirely subjective. The majority of the points made to sustain that 21-level list are completely based of interpretation--and loose interpretation at that. Take the comment they've raised in your quote.

 

The girl was stronger in the One Power than she [Graendal] herself! Even in her own Age, that had been uncommon among men, and very rare indeed among women.

 

They extrapolate based on 'very rare' that this means that she is stronger than the other three female channelers in the Chosen (excluding Lanfear). Yet, one must keep in mind that roughly three percent of the population could channel in the Age of Legends--a conservative guess would therefore place the number of women able to channel in the hundreds of thousands--and far more likely given the degree of that society, in the millions.

 

They would therefore have us postulate that the words 'very rare' somehow indicate that the three other forsaken are weaker--three out of millions stretches the bounds of 'very rare', and all three could well be stronger than her, and the comment would still make sense--though i would agree the modality does seem to dismiss Moghedian (Graendal speaks of the girl being stronger than her, so unless Moghedian is stronger that Cyndane--a possibility, though slim--then it does put Moghedian as definately below Graendal).

 

Wotmania's posting is exhaustive, and interesting--i dont even nessasarily disagree with it about Graendal--though i do with others, especially Sharina and Alivia--but it is hardly catagorical proof.

 

Also Mesaana compares herself to Semirhage and finds her an equal. That she doesn't mention Graendal implies that she's stronger. If she was weaker they would treat her like Moghedian, but they don't, the other Chosen clearly respect her.

 

This, however, is not true. Firstly we have no basis for how they treat Moghedian--we never saw Moghedian interact with the other Forsaken until after she was leashed by a cour'souvra and clearly marked as Moridin's slave in both her dress and her freedom of movement. Secondly, their interactions are not limited to strength in the power--indeed in most cases they seem in opposition to strength in the power. Take, for instance, Rhavin's certainty that he or Sammael could equal Lanfear--a direct contradiction of Moghedian's implication that Rhavin would not do well in facing Nynaeve, who was at that time as strong as Moghedian. RJ himself stated that the Forsaken lied even in their own thoughts when it came to comparing their strengths in the One Power.

 

Furthermore we don't know that Moghedian is weaker in the power than the others. You state that they would treat Graendal like Moghedian were she weak, but the reality is that we don't know where Moghedian stands, except that she is weaker than Lanfear, and thinks she is stronger than Rhavin. The fact is given her retiring manner, their reactions make complete sense irrespective of her strength--and we know that manner was something she's always had, and that she lived for three hundred years prior to the war, and therefore it was not something that would have resulted from a lesser degree of strength.

 

 

[Darian]

from winter's heart, Graendal evenly matched Verin, Kumari, and the other wilder linked; plus she was very careful in inverting her weave.  and she managing to kill Kumari shows her strength to be what Verin says "immensely strongly"