The DO will never win

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

The Dark One has never won, ever.  The Light always prevails.  How many times has the wheel turned, and how many more times will it turn?  The only constant throughout all those long ages is that the DO is imprisoned.  He gets close to breaking out every once in a while, but the Wheel, the pattern itself, twists and spins reality so that just the right people do just the right things so that the DO remains trapped.  Is this just a happy coincidence or the nature of things?

 

It shouldn't be just a coincidence - first, coincidence is chance, which the wheel uses as a primary tool for imprisoning the DO.  If the wheel wasn't actively working to keep the DO imprisoned by modifying chance and forcing "coincidences", he could have been let out long ago.  Because the wheel uses chance as a means of imprisoning the DO, saying that it is chance that the he's still imprisoned is the same as saying that the Wheel has forcibly kept him that way.  From the DO's POV there is no difference - it's all a prison wall to him.  Second, this has happened so many times that the evidence points to it happening again and again - the longer the DO remains in prison, the more likely it is he will stay there forever.

 

It could be that it is the strength and courage of the people involved who have overcome the DO every time, but isn't it much more likely that, in any given turning, one of those people would have messed up or lost hope or something?  Were they all that good?  I don't think that makes sense either.

 

It's far more likely that it is the DO's nature to be imprisoned.  He will never escape, but simply drive the wheel to keep him bound.  He will writhe and squirm but the wheel will not lose its hold on him, because every action he could take is immediately countered by a fortelling or ta'veren  or hero of the horn reborn or wolfbrother or a random twist of chance (etc).

 

It seems to me that a levelheaded thinker in Randland shouldn't worry about a world remade in the DO's image, because it will never happen by nature.  All he has to worry about is being swept up in the wheel's "prison wall mechanism", like Rand was as the Dragon.

 

Further, I'm surprised that the Forsaken haven't realized this yet - it's round X of infinity, and the score is X to 0, in favor of the Light.  The forsaken don't seem to be the kind of people to get caught up in lost causes.

 

If the DO truly wants to be released he should have the forsaken unleash balefire, thereby attacking his prison wall and possibly breaking the mechanism that causes his release to be prevented.  However, this might kill the DO as well, because balefire will unravel the whole pattern, not just the parts that keep the DO safe.

[Guest Dreadlord]

The thing is though, if nobody worried about the DO breaking free, then nobody would do anything about it, and he would break free.

 

The Wheel keeps spinning out Ta'verens, and its Champion, the Dragon, to battle the Dark Ones forces. Thats how the Dark One is still imprisoned.

[Charlz Guybon]

Further, I'm surprised that the Forsaken haven't realized this yet - it's round X of infinity, and the score is X to 0, in favor of the Light.  The forsaken don't seem to be the kind of people to get caught up in lost causes.

 

If the DO truly wants to be released he should have the forsaken unleash balefire, thereby attacking his prison wall and possibly breaking the mechanism that causes his release to be prevented.  However, this might kill the DO as well, because balefire will unravel the whole pattern, not just the parts that keep the DO safe.

I don't think that the Forsaken (besides Ishy) really believe in the cyclical nature of time.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

The thing is though, if nobody worried about the DO breaking free, then nobody would do anything about it, and he would break free.

I mean that the pattern will spin out people who care enough to do it, and it will ensure that they win.

 

It's like deus ex machina is built into the physics of Randland.  Think of the Pattern as a blanket that covers the DO.  As he struggles to break free by bending and shaping the pattern in various ways, the pattern simply folds and conforms to remain intact covering him (obviously this analogy can not be taken too far).

 

Even if it seemed like no one cared, some drastic thing would inevitably happen at the last minute to bring order to the pattern.

 

 

I don't think that the Forsaken (besides Ishy) really believe in the cyclical nature of time.

I wonder about that.  I always thought that the repetitive nature of time was known at least among scholars.  I don't have any evidence this is the case though.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

I don't think that the Forsaken (besides Ishy) really believe in the cyclical nature of time.

I wonder about that.  I always thought that the repetitive nature of time was known at least among scholars.  I don't have any evidence this is the case though.

 

They were, at least philosophers like Ishy did. But IIRC in their first big conference one of the Forsaken argued over whether Rand was really LTT reborn, that such a thing as prophesied rebirth was only "theoretical". So the ideas were out there in the AOL, however it sounds like it was known as abstract theory.

[Corbett]

Also you must remember that it was the Wheel that imprisoned the dark one. The Wheel is just there to maintain the balance. One thing that the dark one tries to rely on, shown especially in the first books is to convert the champion of the light to the dark. if he suceeded in doing this then it is quite possible that the wheel would not have time to counter the dark ones doing. also touching on the point that the dark ones best hope is to not try to escape. If your rival for all the power in the universe trapped you in a prison would you not also try to escape by any means no matter how futile it seemed. I would.

[BrainFireBob]

The DO is not bound by, nor does he exist within, the Wheel.

 

The Wheel exists to perpetuate itself. The DO is a free agent- he can do different things every time.

 

Look at it this way: Only the DO has complete free will. The Wheel does not, but does have several mechanisms it can use to thwart the DO's will. The fact he has not triumphed yet merely indicates the finite nature of time, even in this cyclical world.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

The fact he has not triumphed yet merely indicates the finite nature of time, even in this cyclical world.

Do you mean that the DO will inevitably win?  If so, shouldn't he have already, in one of the past turnings of the wheel or in one of the portal worlds?  If it's inevitable, then the pattern is too weak to act as a prison, but the Creator could have made it "stronger".  I don't think the Creator underestimated the DO's power or misunderstood the way the Wheel spins out the Pattern.

 

If your rival for all the power in the universe trapped you in a prison would you not also try to escape by any means no matter how futile it seemed. I would.

It doesn't just seem futile - it is futile, by nature.  Like trying to ignore gravity, it will not work.  The best he can do is try to make everyone outside his prison miserable too.

 

Now that I think about it, the DO got a pretty bad deal - the guy didn't even get a chance to exist before he was imprisoned, and he's been in there forever, literally.  That would make me pretty "Dark" too.

[BrainFireBob]

I'll say this simply.

 

The DO was not created at the same time as the Wheel.

 

The Wheel came later.

 

The cycles of the Wheel do not extend to infinity. There was a definite start point.

 

So yes, statistically, the DO should inevitably win, because only the Wheel is bound to repeat itself. The DO is not so bound.

 

And he has won in some of the Portal Worlds, this is simply insufficient to set him free, since they aren't the "one true Real World."

[Harmless Bandit]

Not to get philosophical here, but it seems to me that we tend to equate the Creator & the Dark One with God & Satan, etc.

 

I'll say this simply.

 

The DO was not created at the same time as the Wheel.

 

The Wheel came later.

 

By all accounts it would appear that the Dark One was already there when the Wheel was created, but do we know for sure that the Dark One was created? He appears to be a god-entity thingy; and it would further raise the question as to why the Creator (I can't think of anyone else) created him.

 

The cycles of the Wheel do not extend to infinity. There was a definite start point.

 

So yes, statistically, the DO should inevitably win, because only the Wheel is bound to repeat itself. The DO is not so bound.

 

Kinda makes you wonder what's the point then, if the Dark One will win at some point? Furthermore, what logic would the Creator be using if he sets things that way? Unless he has moved on to other stuff, never to look back at the Wheel again?

 

On a side note, the Dark One makes an interesting comment, labelling the Dragon his ancient enemy, IIRC, and no mention of the Creator is made. Not that proves anything, of course  ;D

[BrainFireBob]

It all depends on how much RJ cared about exploring, of course- but he made the comment that WoT is a bit Manichean. The Manichean heresy was a Christian form of dualism- God and the Devil at war for the souls of humanity and possession of the world. Of course, it could be an Evnissyen-Nissyen situation too, we just lack information to tell!

 

As to the ancient enemy remark- I've thought myself that in another form of RJ's traditional parallelism, a concentrated DO and "diffused" Creator would make excellent thematic sense, with the DO simply seeking to come to grips with his opposite.

 

Realize, from the standpoint of the Wheel, he's imprisoned. This means that he's shut out of the Wheel, not that he's bound within it. Much like Wonko the Sane.

[Nethran Thaimal]

Brainfire, I understood about 50% of that post.

 

"I CANNOT TAKE PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL." - The Creator, The Eye of the World.

 

That sentence is telling in many ways.  The Creator CANNOT take part. The Dragon must do what must be done, if he will.

 

That means the Dark One can win, because if the Dragon will not do what must be done, which the Creator offers as a possibility, then no one can do it and the Dark One will break free.

[BrainFireBob]

Who says it was the Creator, and not the DO?

[Aemon raHal]

That sentence is telling in many ways.  The Creator CANNOT take part. The Dragon must do what must be done, if he will.

 

Ok, so what if the Dragon doesn't want to fight the DO?

 

He's also Tav'eren! So won't the Wheel spin things into motion that force the situation?

 

Like with Mat for instance.... he does what he can to get away from Rand and everything, but keeps getting brought, or pulled, back.

 

The same would probably happen for Rand, no?

Either the Wheel forces it, or the other 2 powerful Tav'eren (the 2 other legs on the tripod) pull him back on track?

 

 

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

First, if we're going to be throwing quotes around, let's make them accurate:

I WILL TAKE NO PART.  ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.

 

It isn't that the entity cannot take part, it's that it chooses not to.

 

The reason why that entity is most likely to be the Creator?  The DO doesn't abide by any Marquis of Queensbury Rules.  It's idea of a polite debate would be to drop a nuke on your head.  Personally.  Excess in all things.

 

Another reason it's most likely the Creator is that the DO would not give its "Chosen One" any choice in the matter.

[Nethran Thaimal]

Meh, my quote was close enough. :\  If the Creator says he won't, then he's given his word and can't.  He's not the Father of Lies, I think he'll hold to his word. :P