Let's take...

[Bob T Dwarf]

... a fresh look at Mazrim Taim.

 

False Dragon ( although as a man who can channel strongly he probably believes he's the real deal ).  Captured and held by AS.  Approached by BA.  Broken free by loyal followers.  Just starting to feel that he's back-in-the-saddle-again, and BLAM, the sky lights up, and somebody else is fighting Ba'alzamon.

 

Hopes dashed, followers evaporating, he does what he can to evade those pursuing him.  Foremost among those being Davram Bashere.

 

He hears rumors of the other Dragon, the one he saw in the sky, offering an amnesty to any man who can channel.  With nothing to lose and everything to gain, he sets off for Caemlyn and that amnesty.

 

Those are the things about which we can be most certain, all else is speculation.

 

So, here's my speculation:

 

He finally makes it safely to Caemlyn and the real Dragon Reborn.  But, who is there alongside Rand?  Davram Bashere, the very man he's been killing himself to avoid.  Was it all a lie?  Was it all just a ruse to get him into Bashere's hands?  He reacts very poorly in that initial meeting.  Rand doesn't behave terribly well either.    Net result is that Taim has reason to be suspicious of Rand.

 

But, it seems that the amnesty was genuine.  Even so, the seed of doubt about Rand has been firmly planted by the circumstances of their initial meeting.

 

He takes over at the Farm and begins building the Asha'man.  He knows that the primary use those Asha'man will be put to is military.  So, he takes a little initiative and forms them into essentially military units.  Complete with ranks and insignia.  Rand reacts badly to that.  More suspicion.

 

Then Dashiva turns up.  He's good.  He's strong.  He's able.  But, he's pushy.

 

Nonetheless, he somehow becomes one of those Rand trusts to be around him.  Taim is forced to use Dashiva to check his suspicions about Rand.  Dashiva is less than truthful about what Rand is doing, and why.  More suspicion.

 

Finally something happens to make Taim act.  Maybe Dashiva overplayed his hand somehow.  Taim reasons that somebody close to Rand is Dark.  He believes that because of how much that person seems to be trusted by Rand that Rand is fully under the control of the Dark.  He orders the Gang of Three to kill Rand.  He doesn't tell Dashiva anything about this.

 

Their attack fails.  Now, in order to cover himself he has to go to Rand and declare the three outlaw renegades.  He's astounded when Rand tells him that Dashiva also tried to kill him and has to be added to the list.  Taim finally begins to put two and two together and realize that he's the one who has been played.  That ticks him off a mite.  Again, it's an uncomfortable meeting for both of them. 

 

Then, even later, comes the seemingly nonsensical order to allow AS to bond a bunch of his Asha'man.  When the AS show up, he utters his famous, "Let the Lord of Chaos rule." line.  Why wouldn't he.  It's a line from a popular children's rhyme that everybody learned in childhood, and it fits the situation from his perspective.

 

So, is Taim really Dark or might there not be a set of circumstances that could explain his actions in another light?

 

 

 

[Rahlian]

WOW. Just wow. I have to say that this is proll one of the extremely small number of non-Shadow Taim theories out there that make a mite of sense. Thats not to say however, that i buy into it. Im currently on a re-read, and I'm only on book 4, so i am not entirely up to date, it being three or four years since i last read the series, but I seem to rcall something about Taim's palace being decorated in red and black, which if i recall correctly, seem to be Moridins colors.

 

There also seemed to be something one of the three Asha'man either said or had that nearly positively identified him as a DF, but i could be pulling stuff  out of my butt here. I will scan through and try to find more concrete evidence

[Guest Dreadlord]

Interesting points but I don't think it changes anything.

 

So-called Aiel? Only one way he could have heard about that; the Forsaken. There is no other way Taim would know the Aiel had changed so much, otherwise every Aiel would have known as well, which they didn;t.

 

Knowledge of the Power? Where did all that come from? Definitely not a voice in Taims head-he would have shown clear symptoms, the symptoms we see in Rand from Egwenes PoVs. And Taims knowledge of the Power certainly isn't minimal, which leads me to think how often he had channeled to come across such knowledge. The more you channel, the more the Taint seeps into you, and Taim certainly shows no sign of Taint madness, especially someone as experienced as himself. When he spoke of the men he had encountered who could channel, he said one lasted about two years, am I right? Taim said he had met five channelers, one of which last two years. That means Taims "career" in channeling has lasted for 2 years+however long the other four men lasted+however long it took Taim to find the first of those men after he began channeling himself. Add that all up and it seems way likely that Taim has lasted too long without Taint madness.

 

Now I have already seen the biggest flaw in that, and that flaw is called Logain Ablar. Logain hasnt been affected by the Taint either it seems. But Taims endurance on top of everything I said at the top, as well as his awkwardness and attitude towards Rand, points to the Shadow in my opinion.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Understand, this is all just speculation and I'm not wedded to any of it, but...

 

One place he could have picked up the "so-called Aiel" phrase is from Dashiva/Osan'gar, after he got recycled and sent to the Farm to become Taim's controller.

 

That's how Aginor would have seen the Aiel.  And, just because somebody picks up a phrase from someone else doesn't mean that he's their willing stooge.

[Nethran Thaimal]

The lions sing and hills take flight.

The moon by day, and the sun by night.

Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.

Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

 

-chant from children's game

heard in Great Arvalon,

the Fourth Age

 

The line's from a chant in the Fourth Age, after Tar Valon loses its original name.  While we can't rule out the fact that the song or something like it exists in the end of the Third Age, I think we can safely say that it's unlikely.  I think Taim had to have heard it from another Dark Friend, Shaidar Haran, one of the Chosen, or the Dark One itself.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Prophecy, and history too, take many strange forms.

 

"The lions sing and hills take flight."

 

Who do we know who used to be singers?  And, might now be considered lions?

 

"The moon by day, and the sun by night."

 

Twice dawns the day...

 

"Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool."

 

Unknown.  In most respects any AS might be considered to be blind.  Rand, and his reluctance to listen to the difficult truths the Maidens among others have been trying to tell him, might be considered deaf.  Jackdaw fool could well be Mat.  He seems to forever be dancing with Jack-o-the-Shadows.

 

"Let the Lord of Chaos rule."

 

The meaning of that one is the real $64 question.

 

The whole series is written as a Fourth Age romance about significant history.  Children's games are remarkably stable across the ages.  Kids today are playing much the same games kids played centuries ago, so a Fourth Age history that includes that chant doesn't mean much, by itself.

 

But, it may also lend weight to the Dark Taim Theory.

 

I wish we'd had even one PoV from him.  Without that I still have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

Remember, too, that Snakes and Foxes has been around since visits to the Finns were commonplace.  Those visits may have been some kind of Mitzvah event in the deep distant past.  If so, the game probably grew up or got invented as a way to teach kids how to deal with the Finns when they finally got their chance to meet them.  IOW, kids games have a very loooooooonnnnnnngggggg shelf-life.

 

[bRANDan]

False Dragon ( although as a man who can channel strongly he probably believes he's the real deal ).  Captured and held by AS.  Approached by BA.  Broken free by loyal followers.  Just starting to feel that he's back-in-the-saddle-again, and BLAM, the sky lights up, and somebody else is fighting Ba'alzamon.

 

I was under the impression that Taim was captured by the AS after the vision in the sky appeared. Then later when the AS were bringing him to TV he was broken free.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

False Dragon ( although as a man who can channel strongly he probably believes he's the real deal ).  Captured and held by AS.  Approached by BA.  Broken free by loyal followers.  Just starting to feel that he's back-in-the-saddle-again, and BLAM, the sky lights up, and somebody else is fighting Ba'alzamon.

 

I was under the impression that Taim was captured by the AS after the vision in the sky appeared. Then later when the AS were bringing him to TV he was broken free.

 

what he said. as far as i know, who broke him free was never specified.  persumably the BA

[Myndrunner]

I wish we'd had even one PoV from him.  Without that I still have to give him the benefit of the doubt. [/qoute]

 

Almost the fact that we don't have a PoV points to him being a key dark baddie; but it would be so much more entertaining if he turns out to be not bad, just misunderstood. 

 

Why would he order Kisman to kill Rand and then later Demandred gives Kisman the same order?  Why would he give the same order twice? 

 

I think that Jordan, the king of implied signifigance, is leaving us a big clue at the end of KoD with "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule!"  I think the only way he could have been more obvious would be for Taim to shout "I'm a Dark Friend!" but that wouldn't be Jordan's style. 

 

I can almost feel Jordan smirking at us all....

 

-Myndrunner

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

One place he could have picked up the "so-called Aiel" phrase is from Dashiva/Osan'gar, after he got recycled and sent to the Farm to become Taim's controller.

 

That's how Aginor would have seen the Aiel.  And, just because somebody picks up a phrase from someone else doesn't mean that he's their willing stooge

UNQUOTE

 

Theres no way Osan'gar would have let something like that slip, not something that identifies him so clearly. And even if he had, Taim wouldn't have started using the term without knowing what it means.

[Rasta Ashaman]

Taim is certainly a bit 'greyish' DF - he's definitely not brainwashed like Elza was later on , but still rushes to save Rand at Dumai's Wells risking his hind (granted, 200 killing machines he brought with him there decreased the risk significantly, but still...)

[Bob T Dwarf]

Theres no way Osan'gar would have let something like that slip, not something that identifies him so clearly. And even if he had, Taim wouldn't have started using the term without knowing what it means.

 

It might be significant to us, but why would it be significant to any of the other characters?  How or why would Taim "know" to associate it with a Forsaken?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Here's another "What if" to bat around.

 

What if it wasn't Taim who ordered Kisman et al to kill Rand?  What if it was Dashiva masquerading as Taim?

 

That could kinda fit with the nature of the answer Jordan gave to the "Has Demandred ever posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim?", question.  He might have been amused because he was being asked about the wrong Forsaken having posed as Taim.

[Guest Dreadlord]

All it takes is someone to say "What dya mean, so-called?" If Osan'gar explained about it then they would ask how they knew, as that is the Aiels biggest secret, something that only the Aiel know, so how would anyone else know about it? The Forsaken are way too subtle to drop hints like that in front of Third Agers, however small the hint is, even if we are talking about Aginor.

 

QUOTE

Taim is certainly a bit 'greyish' DF - he's definitely not brainwashed like Elza was later on , but still rushes to save Rand at Dumai's Wells risking his hind (granted, 200 killing machines he brought with him there decreased the risk significantly, but still

UNQUOTE

 

Taim, as a Darkfriend, would need to keep tabs on Rand, assuming we are following the idea of him being Demandreds proxy. So, if Rand was in the White Tower, the Forsaken wouldnt be able to learn of his plans as easily. Mesaana wouldnt be able to learn anything. Also, the Forsaken wouldnt be able to influence Rand if he was in the White Tower, and he wouldnt be in a position to make any decisions for them to infect.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think you're presuming a degree of infallibility that none of the Forsaken has demonstrated thus far.

 

They all make mistakes.  If anyone had asked, all Dashiva would need to say was that he'd heard about it from one of the Aiel with Rand.

 

It would be rather unrealistic to believe that the past that Rand revealed isn't still a topic of conversation among the Aiel.

 

I think there's ample cause to be suspicious of Taim.  I just don't see where anything we've actually seen him do constitutes a smoking gun.

[Rasta Ashaman]

Taim, as a Darkfriend, would need to keep tabs on Rand, assuming we are following the idea of him being Demandreds proxy. So, if Rand was in the White Tower, the Forsaken wouldnt be able to learn of his plans as easily. Mesaana wouldnt be able to learn anything. Also, the Forsaken wouldnt be able to influence Rand if he was in the White Tower, and he wouldnt be in a position to make any decisions for them to infect.

How come? Wasn't it Mesaana who told the other Forsaken that she organized Rand's trip to WT herself? If she could do that, then what's to stop her from 'learning about and influencing Rand'?

[Bob T Dwarf]

That makes sense to me.

 

Mesaana was pretty obviously the organizing force behind the group that deposed Siuan and installed Elaida.  Equally obvious is that the object of that exercise was really to install Alviarin as Keeper, since it's the Keeper, not the Amyrlin who actually runs things.

 

So, she's got both her pet DF as Keeper, and a woman who is beholden to her as Amyrlin.  If Rand had been taken all the way to the Tower, she would have had complete control of him.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Mesaana wouldnt learn anything of rands plans because he wouldnt disclose them,, no matter how much they tortured him. The White Tower wouldnt get a word out of him, I dont reckon, and I dont think Mesaana would be very successful either.

[Rasta Ashaman]

Mesaana wouldnt learn anything of rands plans because he wouldnt disclose them,, no matter how much they tortured him. The White Tower wouldnt get a word out of him, I dont reckon, and I dont think Mesaana would be very successful either.

 

Well, at that moment in the story, I'd say "Here comes Semi !!!"  ;D  and there wouldn't be enough parchment in the whole WT to write down everything Rand knew .

[Bob T Dwarf]

Aahh.  But if the Dark has control of him, his previous plans don't really matter.

 

If the order from the DO is to keep him alive, they just do the 13 + 13 trick and forcibly turn him.  Otherwise, he's just found dead one morning.

 

Either way, it's Check and Mate.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The problem with books of any depth is that the reader is forced to become really involved with the characters.  The more deeply involved we become, the more visceral our reactions to each character become - the more we begin reading each character through the filter of our emotions - and the less we read the character as the author actually wrote him/her.  Once we start to "love" a character we begin to see everything they say or do in the best possible light.  Once we start to hate a character, everything they say or do is seen to be evil - whether it really is or not.

 

To me Taim is just a little too easy of a target.  He's too easy to hate.

 

I think Jordan wrote him as he did because he needed a magician's assistant.  Somebody who stands to one side of the stage, posing and posturing to draw the audience's attention away from the magician and the sleight-of-hand going on.

 

But, that too is just a feeling.  I could be entirely wrong. 

[aevogt]

That's a great point but it's not a problem, it's a bonus. 

 

Some of the greatest debates I've seen have been between opposing sides of an arguement on this board.

 

It's a mark of the quality that people can get fired up over differing theories and differing opinions.

 

 

[bjclinton]

... a fresh look at Mazrim Taim.

 

takes over at the Farm and begins building the Asha'man.  He knows that the primary use those Asha'man will be put to is military.  So, he takes a little initiative and forms them into essentially military units.  Complete with ranks and insignia.  Rand reacts badly to that.  More suspicion.

.

 

Actually, it was Rand that was responsible for forcing Taim to make them into military units- and I stress the word forced. Taim bucked this at every stop. In fact he openly disobeyed Rand by sending the swordsman that was responsible for training them in military combat ( i forget his name ). Rand had to threaten him by way of force to find him and continue their training. Taim just wanted to make them into human weapons, strictly with the OP. Rand's argument was that w/ out the OP they needed a way to defend themselves

 

It was also Rand that came up with the idea of "rank"...Soldier, Dedicated and Asha'man, and had the Gold and Silversmith make them. Again, Taim was infuriated by this and bristled when Rand made his his first "Asha'man."

 

Notice Taim's self-appointed title of Leader? M'hael- a bit presumptious, no?

 

Anyway...while you theory is interesting, I think it is all based on giving him the "benefit of the doubt" in way too many areas rather than relying on the cold hard facts that we see in the books (too many to list in detail, but everything from the references that only friends of the dark make, the scents that he gives off that we see from Perrin's POV that mark him as a potential threat to Rand at times- or near threat....the list goes on and on.)

 

 

Its always fun to read new theories Bob, but this one is so far removed from the careful planning over many books to develop Taim into an evil protagonist as it relates to developing the Black Tower, that I think its very unlikely that it will unfold this way.

 

There is so much more evidence to point him out as a new Chosen / Dreadlord than the misunderstood Weilder of OP that I have to go with my gut on this one  ;)

[Bob T Dwarf]

Getting enthusiastic is OK.

 

The problem is that, the more deeply involved with the characters we become, the more assumptions we make.  And, those assumptions are based mainly on how passionately we feel about the character.  

 

Thus we lead ourselves and each other astray.  We start writing a very different book in our heads than the one the author is presenting on the page.

 

Since we each see any given character slightly differently; feel slightly differently about him/her;  debates and disputes spring up.  Mostly based around the way the disputants feel about things rather than how those things have been presented by the author.

 

In this case, I may be entirely wrong.  Jordan may have presented Taim precisely in the cold, focused, ruthless manner he did entirely because we are all supposed to hate him for very good reason.  If so, I've double-thought my way down a blind alley.

 

Or, it may be that he did it to present us all with a good object lesson about prejudgement and assumption.

 

I'm not sure which outcome I'd prefer :-\

[Bob T Dwarf]

Actually, it was Rand that was responsible for forcing Taim to make them into military units- and I stress the word forced. Taim bucked this at every stop. In fact he openly disobeyed Rand by sending the swordsman that was responsible for training them in military combat ( i forget his name ). Rand had to threaten him by way of force to find him and continue their training. Taim just wanted to make them into human weapons, strictly with the OP. Rand's argument was that w/ out the OP they needed a way to defend themselves

 

It was also Rand that came up with the idea of "rank"...Soldier, Dedicated and Asha'man, and had the Gold and Silversmith make them. Again, Taim was infuriated by this and bristled when Rand made his his first "Asha'man."

 

Notice Taim's self-appointed title of Leader? M'hael- a bit presumptious, no?

 

Anyway...while you theory is interesting, I think it is all based on giving him the "benefit of the doubt" in way too many areas rather than relying on the cold hard facts that we see in the books (too many to list in detail, but everything from the references that only friends of the dark make, the scents that he gives off that we see from Perrin's POV that mark him as a potential threat to Rand at times- or near threat....the list goes on and on.)

 

 

Its always fun to read new theories Bob, but this one is so far removed from the careful planning over many books to develop Taim into an evil protagonist as it relates to developing the Black Tower, that I think its very unlikely that it will unfold this way.

 

There is so much more evidence to point him out as a new Chosen / Dreadlord than the misunderstood Weilder of OP that I have to go with my gut on this one  ;)

 

Close but no cigar.

 

Taim came up with the idea to train the Asha'man as weapons.  Rand simply insisted that they also be trained in the use of the sword so that they had an additional way to defend themselves.

 

Taim initiated the ranks and the insignia.  He got furious when Rand insisted that he wear the insignia also, and then presented him with pins to designate that rank.

 

Apropos of the Cadsuane dispute...  Taim saves Rand from a Grey man.  Taim and his asha'man are instrumental in the victory at Dumai's Wells.

 

No matter how he personally feels about Rand, he has been vitally and usefully involved in keeping Rand ( relatively - this is Rand, after all ) healthy and safe.

 

The only evidence against him is the assassination attempt, and Kisman's ( was it him or one of the others? ) belief that he'd gotten orders to do so from both Taim and Demandred.

 

If that belief is accurate, we have our answer.  But, if it was Dashiva in disguise, rather than Taim... not so much.