Let's take...

[Dhaos]

Getting enthusiastic is OK.

 

The problem is that, the more deeply involved with the characters we become, the more assumptions we make.  And, those assumptions are based mainly on how passionately we feel about the character. 

 

Thus we lead ourselves and each other astray.  We start writing a very different book in our heads than the one the author is presenting on the page.

 

Since we each see any given character slightly differently; feel slightly differently about him/her;  debates and disputes spring up.  Mostly based around the way the disputants feel about things rather than how those things have been presented by the author.

 

In this case, I may be entirely wrong.  Jordan may have presented Taim precisely in the cold, focused, ruthless manner he did entirely because we are all supposed to hate him for very good reason.  If so, I've double-thought my way down a blind alley.

 

Or, it may be that he did it to present us all with a good object lesson about prejudgement and assumption.

 

I'm not sure which outcome I'd prefer :-\

 

I can see why you want to feel this way, but I really don't buy it.  There's just so much pointing to Taim, and RJ has really ramped up the hints that Rand and he would have to eventually clash over the course of the books.  It really seems like the "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" remark- uttered in a room full of sneering, leering cronies- was RJ's ultimate wink-and-nod to the audience that "Yes, he's a bad guy."

 

I guess we could get a POV chapter from Taim, or a drawn out monologue/dialogue, in which he can explain all of his actions as misunderstood.  But that seems like a cop out.  RJ has executed a literary build-up here where all signs point to conflict with Taim.  To back down from that would simply be...anticlimactic.

 

And that's before we even consider the fact that the Dark desperately needs all the Channellers it can get for TG to be any sort of a fight...

 

Personally, if Taim turns out to be simply misunderstood, I'll probably feel a little miffed.  I'd consider it quite the bait-and-switch.

[bjclinton]

Actually, it was Rand that was responsible for forcing Taim to make them into military units- and I stress the word forced. Taim bucked this at every stop. In fact he openly disobeyed Rand by sending the swordsman that was responsible for training them in military combat ( i forget his name ). Rand had to threaten him by way of force to find him and continue their training. Taim just wanted to make them into human weapons, strictly with the OP. Rand's argument was that w/ out the OP they needed a way to defend themselves

 

It was also Rand that came up with the idea of "rank"...Soldier, Dedicated and Asha'man, and had the Gold and Silversmith make them. Again, Taim was infuriated by this and bristled when Rand made his his first "Asha'man."

 

Notice Taim's self-appointed title of Leader? M'hael- a bit presumptious, no?

 

Anyway...while you theory is interesting, I think it is all based on giving him the "benefit of the doubt" in way too many areas rather than relying on the cold hard facts that we see in the books (too many to list in detail, but everything from the references that only friends of the dark make, the scents that he gives off that we see from Perrin's POV that mark him as a potential threat to Rand at times- or near threat....the list goes on and on.)

 

 

Its always fun to read new theories Bob, but this one is so far removed from the careful planning over many books to develop Taim into an evil protagonist as it relates to developing the Black Tower, that I think its very unlikely that it will unfold this way.

 

There is so much more evidence to point him out as a new Chosen / Dreadlord than the misunderstood Weilder of OP that I have to go with my gut on this one  ;)

 

Close but no cigar.

 

Taim came up with the idea to train the Asha'man as weapons.  Rand simply insisted that they also be trained in the use of the sword so that they had an additional way to defend themselves.

 

Taim initiated the ranks and the insignia.  He got furious when Rand insisted that he wear the insignia also, and then presented him with pins to designate that rank.

 

Apropos of the Cadsuane dispute...  Taim saves Rand from a Grey man.  Taim and his asha'man are instrumental in the victory at Dumai's Wells.

 

No matter how he personally feels about Rand, he has been vitally and usefully involved in keeping Rand ( relatively - this is Rand, after all ) healthy and safe.

 

The only evidence against him is the assassination attempt, and Kisman's ( was it him or one of the others? ) belief that he'd gotten orders to do so from both Taim and Demandred.

 

If that belief is accurate, we have our answer.  But, if it was Dashiva in disguise, rather than Taim... not so much.

 

good call- i actually forgot that it was Taim that came up with the title of ranks- how could i forget such an important detail!!??

 

to answer your question though, I'm of the ilk that the reason why he has saved Rand was because he was following orders: "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule."

 

Like the rest of the Forsaken, Taim is just following orders to allow Rand to live. This would also explain why he was concerned that Rand might be going a little crazy....if he died on Taim's watch, Taim would face the wrath of the DO.....we know that he's not a very forgiving master from the other Chosen's POV.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I can certainly see how if you buy into the idea that Taim is Black, any other explanation would leave you feeling cheated.

 

The question is:  If there is another explanation, who cheated you?  The author?  Or, yourself?

 

It's all a matter of overkill.  Taim is painted in such unrelentingly unflattering tones.  Yet, there is also Dashiva/Osan'gar.  If Taim is so firmly wearing a black hat, why do they need Osan'gar there, as well?  It's not like they don't have enough other fires to tend.  Masema, for instance, is pretty much blowing in the wind.  Proceeding on momentum alone.

 

There's a huge Borderland army.  Out-of-position at the moment, but are DF AS enough to keep them that way?  Then there were the Shaido.  Once Sam had been killed, they were another group that had to be abandoned; left alone to carry ahead on momentum alone.  They were forced to leave the White Cloaks to Carridin because they didn't have any bodies to spare to cover that base.  There are probably others that I'm forgetting, as well.

 

Yet, somehow, they can assign Osan'gar, plus Taim, plus Demandred to Rand?  True, Rand is their most dangerous enemy, but triple coverage is rather excessive.  And, those are just the ones we can be sure they had spotted on him.  There are nobody knows how many DF spies, and saboteurs also.

 

But, if Taim isn't Black, then Osan'gar/Dashiva makes sense.

 

Look at the situation from the Dark side for a moment.  Their whole game-plan is predicated on being the actors.  They do as they wish and everybody, but most especially Rand is forced to react.  They pull the world's and the Dragon Reborn's strings.  They are the CHOSEN.  That's how things are meant to be.

 

Except, Rand hasn't read the script.  Every time they think they've gotten a step ahead, Rand does something new and unanticipated.  As of LoC, the latest thumb he's stuck in their soup is an amnesty for male channelers.  A plan to train them.  Make them a further adjunct to his forces.

 

The best way to foil that is to drive a wedge between Rand and the Asha'man... and keep it there.  Since Demandred already has his hands full, that means they have to sic the newly decanted Osan'gar onto Taim.  Keep Taim off-balance and suspicious of Rand, and make Rand suspicious of Taim.  If they can be pushed into a position of mutual distrust, the Asha'man can never become an effective force for Rand.

 

All speculation, mind, but it does explain the over-concentration of the DO's very limited assets on Rand and the excessive risk of other plans drifting off the rails elsewhere.

[bjclinton]

Its great speculation, don't get me wrong- and refreshing to see a new theory, but here are my thoughts on what you wrote:

 

Keep in mind that Dashiva was chosen by Rand to accompany him- he wasn't assigned to Rand. Remember how surprised Taim looked when he chose Dashiva? I speculate that Taim knew exactly who Dashiva was and was surprised that Rand chose him as the one to be close to him.

 

As for why both Taim and Dashiva were there? In my opinion it was to train, then recruit as many potential Male Dreadlords as they could. A task to be "lead" by Taim, who in my opinion was sent to Rand for that very purpose, yet overseen by Osan'gar....that plan was a bit skewed when Rand chose him as one of his personal Asha'men, yet it accounts well for their actions.

 

I just can't buy into the fact that Taim is good....he's too Evil to be good.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well, he IS decidedly unpleasant.  And, if he's been misled and thinks Rand could be Dark, he'd have reason to be.  He might also simply be an unpleasant person.

 

Too easy to hate and thus too easy to form a bad opinion about, and thus too likely that the bad opinion turns out to be wrong.

 

It could also be that after 18 years of seeing inside Rand's head I'm getting to be as batty as he is.

[Myndrunner]

I kinda sided with Lews Therin that he should have taken Taim out...but then again, without Taim there would not be any Asha'man.  Rand certainly follows the rule of keeping your friends close and your enemies closer. 

 

-Mynd

[Guest Dreadlord]

I think many people on here aren't reading the posts properly, and are getting mixed up with details from the books.

 

Rand came up with the ranks NOT TAIM. And Rand told Taim to make them weapons.

 

At Dumais Wells Rand says to Taim "I told you to make them into weapons. Now show me how good a weapon they really are." And then Taim tells the Ashaman to destroy the Shaido.

 

Taims only decisions are HIS OWN TITLE, sending those men away, the list of deserters, and the order for Kisman and the others to kill Rand. Everything else was Rands decision. Rand didn't order any of those and was surprised to hear about them.

[Myndrunner]

So Dreadlord,

 

Your opinion:  Taim - Darkfriend? Chosen? New Chosen? or just a very bitter, misunderstood guy?

 

-Mynd

[Bob T Dwarf]

Rand came up with the ranks NOT TAIM. And Rand told Taim to make them weapons.

 

At Dumais Wells Rand says to Taim "I told you to make them into weapons. Now show me how good a weapon they really are." And then Taim tells the Ashaman to destroy the Shaido.

 

Taims only decisions are HIS OWN TITLE, sending those men away, the list of deserters, and the order for Kisman and the others to kill Rand. Everything else was Rands decision. Rand didn't order any of those and was surprised to hear about them.

 

I think you need to back-up to when Taim first arrives.

 

They go to the Farm.  Rand tells Taim to "Teach them fast."  A few seconds later:

Taim's mouth tightened slightly at Rand's first words. "As much as they can learn,"  he said flatly.  "But, what?  Things that can be used as weapons, I suppose."

 

"Weapons," Rand agreed...

 

So, Taim is the first to suggest teaching them martial spells, and Rand agrees.

 

You are correct about the ranks.  Rand is the one who decides on the titles and the insignia.  Soldier for the recruits.  Dedicated ( sword pin ) for the advanced.  Asha'man ( dragon pin ) for the graduates.

 

In rereading the whole scene, it is unclear what is going on with Taim.  Rand thinks it's rage.  But, Rand has also thought a number of things were other than they turned out to be.

The most remarkable change came over the other man.  Taim shook visibly - with rage, Rand would have said, not fear - but when the shaking stopped, he was his old self again.  Not friendly certainly, a touch mocking, but, very much relaxed and in control of himself.  "Since you must know, what worries me are Aes Sedai, and you.  Nine Aes Sedai come to Caemlyn, plus two make eleven.  Then there might be one or two more.  I haven't been able to find them yet, but - "

 

 

 

[Myndrunner]

What if Taim has voices inside his head like Rand?  Who was the buddy of Lews Therin who got jealous of him? Perhaps someone else is telling him to kill Rand!  Hmmmmm....

[Bob T Dwarf]

Sammael and LTT were once friends.  Demandred was once LTT's Chief-of-Staff.

 

Both started out fighting for the Light.  Both became jealous when LTT seemed to get more acclaim than they.

 

Jordan's comment that: "Mashadar got him.  He's toast.", seems to indicate that Sam is gone for good.  His, "Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim." pronouncement, while more ambiguous in interpretation, seems to indicate he isn't Dem either.

 

Backing the latter statement:  As demonstrated at the Cleansing, while Demandred may be a great general, he lacks personal combat skills.  While Taim may disdain all non-magical weapons, he does seem to know how to fight with the Power.

[Myndrunner]

 

His, "Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim." pronouncement, while more ambiguous in interpretation, seems to indicate he isn't Dem either.

 

Well, he certainly doesn't like taking orders from Rand; but he hides it very well.  Part of me feels that Taim is his own character who is taking the whole "What? I'm not the Dragon?" thing differently than Logaine.  A comparison between the two is quite interesting.

 

Still, his moments of insanity suggest that maybe he is also hearing voices.  I find it unlikely that he would pledge himself a Darkfriend.  He's probably as powerful as any of the Chosen, and close to Rand himself.  I am at a loss as to who he would be....who in the Wheel is yet unaccounted for?

 

Guess we will find out at AMOL!

 

-Mynd