The Hunters?

[aevogt]

Anyone have any thought on what Egwene will do with the five BA hunters in the Tower.

 

I'm sure she will grant pardons for everyone who supported the usuroer Elaida, but those five committed crimes akin to treason by forcing the ten ferrets the rebels sent to the Tower so swear the fourth oath.

 

They made them swear on the oath rod, which is defferent from what Egwene herself did by demanding fealty for covering for certain sisters crimes.  Maybe she won't see it that way and will give them a "no harm no foul" when those ten sisters are released.

 

In any case, I think a great many of the Tower sisters are in for a very big surprose when Egwene is once again wearing her stole.  You'll notice I said "her Stole", not "the Stole" 

 

Maybe she'll give the non-rebels the opportunity to leave the Tower and lay seige to the City as the supporters of a discredited regime ala Commander Sam Vimes in Night Watch.

 

Of all the female characters, she's gotta be my favorite.  Tough enough at 18 to have earned the respect of no less a Wise One than Sorilea, Toughest of the Tough.  She takes multiple beatings from Silviana like its little more than  so much polite conversation.

 

"Good morning Silviana.  Are you ready continue your exercise in futility?  Nope, still not going to curtsy.  I'll see you at lunch.  And dinner.  Your arm's going to get tired sooner or later."

 

I can't wait until they try the birch or something like that and she stands up without a word and waits patiently to see what they want to try next.  It'll be too funny to see Elaida pop a blood vessel trying to force someone stronger than she is to bend.

[benr]

You won't get many supporters, as many posters detest all of the female characters.  I agree, though - the development of Egwene is one of the best planned, most believable, and interesting threads in the books.  I, too, await Elaida's come-uppance, although I also can envision her bowing to Egwene's stolehood out of necessity and realizing what her fortellings actually meant.

[Rahlian]

There is no way Elaida would see her errors in a thousand years. She is far too stiff necked for anyone other than her to be right. If Sanderson writes Elaida bowing out of Egwenes way, i might have to do something drastic

[aevogt]

Yeah, I want to see that bitch "cast out and scorned"

 

 

Too many people have died or been ruined all attributed to her blind ambition to let slide.

 

Birched!

 

Stilled!

 

Call the headsman!

 

Only because the think the Seanchan practice of impaling is over the top and unnecessary cruelty is something the Shadow would do.

 

[Luckers]

I actually see her being taken in the Seanchan assault. She does have rooms in the very heighest part of the Tower, and they will land on the roof--she'll likely be one of the first taken. Frankly i like that--Egwene's battle is about the Aes Sedai, not about Elaida, and being damane provides perfect time for Elaida to realise the stupidity of her actions.

 

As for the Hunters, i suspect they will fall in with Egwene during the Seanchan attack--specifically i think that Egwene, having destroyed Elaida verbally at that dinner, will be commanded to the cells--which incidently is right near where the Hunters carry out their Black Ajah issues. I believe that during the Seanchan attack Egwene will simply take charge, encountering the Hunters, and working together to bring as many Tower sisters out to the Rebel camp before planning a counter-attack.

[Snowy Dawn]

``Anyone have any thought on what Egwene will do with the five BA hunters in the Tower.''

 

Perhaps a better question is, what will they do with her? They are blocked in their search at present (see the prologue to KoD, pp. 59--62), with the only other BA they know of out of the tower among the rebels, as far as they know. So their best hope of making further progress is to enlist Egwene in their search, tho' how exactly she would get them access to the camp across the river would remain to be seen. In any case, it would seem to me that she would send a couple of them off to Caemlyn so they could talk to Vandene to hear what she had learned from questioning Isphan Bhoda. (She would not know yet that Vandene is dead, I assume.) They would have to take the oath rod, and would end up swearing in Elayne, who would then give up the eight Black Ajah she has shielded and locked up in the Dungeon in the palace in Caemlyn. Surely if they can put all eight, one by one, of course, on the chair of remorse they can get the information they need to expose the black ajah.

 

[but with Alviarin pestering Elayne, how long in any discussion with the BA hunters before it dawns on her that it must be Alviarin, not Elaida, who is black? With the latter in their hands, and on the chair of remorse, Saerin, Yukiri, <i>et al</i> get the whole list of the BA if they succeed in breaking her, since Alviarin knows who all of them are---and she may be the only one of the BA with that knowledge. We also don't know who, besides Galina, was one of the three at the top. Alviarin, Galina, and one other right? Or is it Alviarin and three others, of whom Galina was one?]

 

It also might be nice to have a scene in which Seaine and Siuan discuss and then jointly resolve the puzzle of the ``inappropriate'' replacement Sitters.

 

But unlike Luckers, I had envisioned Egwene getting carted down to the basement by Saerin during one of her lessons. (Or maybe one of the other four---Pevara being on her way to the Black Tower on Tsutama's orders.)

 

I was assuming that the Seanchan attack was still some time off, btw.  Being collared might have a sobering effect on Elaida, to be sure. I take it that the idea is that after landing on the roof, the Seanchan punch their way in by means of the use of the power by the damane, yes? But the Tower might resist that kind of attack, given the way it was constructed, also using the power. And such an attack would require Earth, yes, and that is something women who can channel are weak in. On the other hand, maybe you could use Air to push thru' the windows. Then again, wouldn't it just be easier to land near the tower and try to go thru the main door? The White Tower is rather a tougher nut to crack than the Fortress of the Light, anyway.

 

Just some random thoughts at 4 in the morning. :-)

[trakand_01]

(She would not know yet that Vandene is dead, I assume.)

 

You're tired so I'll forgive you, but Vandene isnt dead, Adeleas is dead.

 

Vandene's just gone a bit weird.

 

Unless Vandene dies in books 10 or 11.

 

I'm on Book 10 so wouldnt know  :D

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

You won't get many supporters, as many posters detest all of the female characters.

UNQUOTE

 

All of them? While I think there are some annoying ones, there are also some very good ones. Aviendha, Nynaeve, Moiraine, Verin, Cadsuane (its great when she and Rand clash, but even better when she starts treating him like an adult) Sorilea and Alivia are all characters I like. Its the ones who have childish qualities I don't like (I know Nynaeve has them but that isn't all there is to her, and she grows out of them).

 

I think of the three supergirls Nynaeve is my favourite, she is the only one that genuinely seems to be turning into Aes Sedai, the sort of Aes Sedai you could actually trust. But overall I have to say Moiraine is my favourite female character.

[Luckers]

I agree completely, though i do love Egwene in the later books. Elayne--i dont hate her, but she's just so... boring.

 

Aviendha is cool, especially since she got over her angsty 'i hate you Rand... because your pretty. You bastard.' faze. Cadsuane, Moiraine, Sorilea, Amys, Verin, Pervara... love 'em all.

 

You're tired so I'll forgive you, but Vandene isnt dead, Adeleas is dead.

 

Vandene's just gone a bit weird.

 

Unless Vandene dies in books 10 or 11.

 

I'm on Book 10 so wouldnt know 

 

Umm... eep dude. Eep.

 

Read the eleventh book.

 

Snowy Dawn, I don't see the Hunter actively involving Egwene of their own accord. Aside from her being powerless, they have no reason to think she is trustworthy. They have a far larger list of Aes Sedai they know well enough to judge to approach before Egwene.

 

I was assuming that the Seanchan attack was still some time off, btw.  Being collared might have a sobering effect on Elaida, to be sure. I take it that the idea is that after landing on the roof, the Seanchan punch their way in by means of the use of the power by the damane, yes? But the Tower might resist that kind of attack, given the way it was constructed, also using the power. And such an attack would require Earth, yes, and that is something women who can channel are weak in. On the other hand, maybe you could use Air to push thru' the windows. Then again, wouldn't it just be easier to land near the tower and try to go thru the main door? The White Tower is rather a tougher nut to crack than the Fortress of the Light, anyway.

 

Unlikely. Firstly, we witness in KoD that the to'raken have already been gathered. It would take them roughly ten days to move, and the last time we encounter Perrin is about nine days prior to the last time we encounter Egwene.

 

Beyond that, why would entrance through the roof be hard? There is a very large door up there, and even if its locked--which is unlikely--it wouldn't be hard to get through. They will be landing a force on the Tower roof and take control of the Tower by strike force--my guess, based on to'raken traveling capacities, is that roughly 3,000 damane, 4,000 sul'dam and 5,000 soldiers will take part in the attack.

[trakand_01]

3000 damane / 4000 sul'dam? Are there really believed to be 1000 sisters in the tower? surely that would be a bit of overkill even so, considering that it's likely some suldam/damane teams will be killed in the attack. I didnt think there were 1000 Aes Sedai left at all?

[Luckers]

No, but they must concider the non-channeling forces in play. There are near to one hundred thousand normal soldiers in the greater Tar Valon area, and the amount of forces a to'raken assault can gather is minimal. From there it makes sense to include a significant number of damane--up to the point that it does not cripple Seanchan interests elsewhere. Since I'd guess there are somewhere between six and eight thousand damane in Randland, 3,000 seems a sensible number to me.

 

1,000 damane and 10,000 soldiers simply would not be enough to hold against the 500 Aes Sedai and 100,000 soldiers they would expect to find--especially not if they concidered angreal and sa'angreal.

 

But then my scenario involves them taking and holding the Tower against land reinforcements coming more slowly along the Caralain Grass as well.

[Besolyn]

I'm sure she will grant pardons for everyone who supported the usuroer Elaida, but those five committed crimes akin to treason by forcing the ten ferrets the rebels sent to the Tower so swear the fourth oath.

 

I don’t think she’ll be all that hard on them. More likely she’ll be very sympathetic to their cause or jealous that in her own search for the BA she never had the chance to use the Oath Rod. But Egwene is not one to be blinded by jealousy. She’ll see straight away the necessity that drove them to it.

 

_______________________________

I will be very disappointed if Siuan doesn’t get the chance to stomp a little on Elaida before this is all through. That’s one rivalry that makes me murderous mad when I think of all that Elaida has coming to her! It would tickle me pink to have Elaida captured by the Seanchan and brought (a sign of power as Tuon’s personal damane) to the eventual meeting between Tuon and Rand with Rand accompanied by his childhood sweetheart Amyrlin, whose Keeper is Siuan. At the meeting somehow Rand’s mother’s ID comes out, and Elaida is totally completely and utterly crushed!

 

Ok so that’s a little over the top, since Egwene won’t likely treat with the Seanchan, but it summed up all the things I'd like to slap Elaida in the face with.

[aussie_ashaman123]

i think theyll be punished, probably birched, but not publically. Egwene has learned some lessons herself, one of the important ones is that no-one is above the law, no matter the necessity. Theyll be treated like heroes of course, but they will be punished. That is of course, that they are not killed in retaliation by one of the forsaken or a hidden member of the Black Ajah.

 

I doubt Sheriam will stay Keeper, shes been broken by Aran'gar. I'm guessing Tarna will be made kepper by Egwene for 2 reasons, one, it shows she is willing to try mend the tear of the Broken Tower, and two, Tarna is probably the best Kepper the WT has ever had. Shes out there, trying to hold the tower together while Elaida is high on power and pretty uncaring of the damage she does. Shes trying to placate the Ajahs, trying to mend the rifts inside there

[Besolyn]

Now that’s something I never thought of.....though even to mend the Tower, I don’t see Egwene taking a Red as a Keeper. Except that she may be the first Red to bond a Warder. I would like something like what you suggest. I actually do like Tarna. She let her guard down with Nyneave, and she does have the good of the Tower high in her priorities....second only to avoiding useless confrontation with Elaida.

[aevogt]

At the beginning of CoT, there wer fewer than 200 As in the Tower and another 400+/- with the Rebels.  many held themselves aside, mostly due to th echoices, support Elaida, which many could not do or Rebel, which they found equally distasteful.

 

I really like the idea of keeping a Red as Keeper.  I like Tarna as well.  I just finished the prologue of CoT in my yearly reread and she acted very un-Red, treating the Younglings with a modicum of respect, inspecting them "as though looking for a Warder herself"  She'll go a long way to healing the rift in the Tower.

 

That leads me to another question upon which I have been ruminating.  What will the Red's mission after TG.

 

I don't think it will be bonding men who can channel.  Most of the men won't agree to it because there will not be any need for it with the Taint removed and Saidin cleansed. I don't either.  Just ask Logain.  There is parity of a sort as it stands.  51 female channelers bonded to men and presumably, as of the end of KoD, 51 male channelers bonded to women.  Quite honestly, I see many of those bonds being released once the Black and White Towers come to a more permanent accord.  I doubt Logain will want to remain bonded to Toviene.

 

I was thinking though, turn them into recruiters.  They Travel from village to village in pairs, accompianied by a pair of Ashaman, testing those of the proper age for the spark or the ability to learn.

 

That will serve as penance of a sort for all the misdeeds of their ajah, murdering a seated amrylin, gentling men without benefit of a trial, the whole flap between Bonwhin and Hawkwing, need I continue, over the last several millenia.

 

 

[Rasta Ashaman]

There maybe no hunters left (apart from Pevara, who's in BT) in time for them to be punished, since they are the hunted now themselves - Alviarin has ordered a 'close watch' over two of them, and the BA are a bit more effective than the average AS, so I guess there's a chance, if there are still enough BA sisters in the WT to take out all the hunters including the ferrets, that Pevara will be the only one left.

[xander]

I'm of the opinion that the attack will be the key stone of mending the tower.  Regardless of how the sisters outside the tower feel about the sisters inside the tower; when the tower is in jeopardy its defense will be the top priority for both groups.  Kind of like family you don't really like, but they are still family.

[bRANDan]

What will the Red's mission after TG.

 

I've always wondered if there will even be any channelers left after TG. I'm not saying they will all die, I think they may not be able to channel afterwards. We know there is an age or maybe several ages where people either couldn't od didn't channel. The only thing that I can see that is a big enough event to warrant or cause that is the remaking of the Prison. One thing that has led me to believe this is Min's viewing of the White Tower broken when she foresee's all of the AS that will die/be hurt, this is just before Suian is displaced. I always thought of the "Broken WT" as more literal than figurative.

 

Now that I've written it I'm not sure where I've heard that people couldn't channel for an age(s) so I'm not sure if that is true. Anyone heard that also? If you have, what is the source of that info?

 

If people can still channel afterwards then I still think the Tower will be destroyed. In this case Rand may try to mend the rift between the Asha'man and the Aes Sedai by suggesting that, with the WT destroyed and the BT also destroyed by this time, that maybe the Asha'man and the AS join together as they once were and use Elaida's palace as the new Hall of the Servants. Which will be fittingly represented by the Banner of the Light.

 

As for the hunters, I'm not sure what will happen to them. Maybe they will get together with Egwene, as it is apparent they must in order to eventually be successful, maybe the BA will kill them first, who knows. But of their objective, I think that the BA will be for the most part found out and removed from the AS ranks. Otherwise come TG the AS will not stand a chance with Forsaken and dreadlords in front of them and BA picking them apart from the inside out.

 

As for the Seanchan attack, I think the rebel AS will think that there is a revolution or revolt against Elaida, if they even feel any channeling at the distance they are at. Whatever they think it is, I doubt they will thnk it is a Seanchan attack and rush to help. The Seanchan plan there attacks well and are not going to underestimate the WT so their victory will be quick -the WT is ripe for the picking, I doubt an Ajah would even come to another Ajah to see what was up with all of the channelling- and leave little time for the rebels response. The AS will join together after the Seanchan occupation has been dealt with by the rebels and Mat's army which will just happen to be led by Leilwin Shipless, a Seanchan who wears a sword on her back, who will be left in charge by Mat once he realises her worth as a battle leader ;)

[Alexius]

 

Now that I've written it I'm not sure where I've heard that people couldn't channel for an age(s) so I'm not sure if that is true. Anyone heard that also? If you have, what is the source of that info?

1)RJ said so.

2)There is a lot of evidence (legends, Mercedes badge in Tanchico, etc) that our time is one of the Ages. People can't channel now, so...

3) Tamyrlin is described (I think in BWB) as "the first person to channel".

[DemandredFO]

No Egwene is petty, she likes to bully nyneave now because she can(though it won't work anymore).  A question occured to me and since we are sorta talking about it I'll ask.  Luckers, or anyone else, how do you think egwene will get over the forkroot?  My thought is Eliada will just have her shielded until she can be stilled and executed.  Otherwise I don't see how egwene evacuates the tower.  Thoughts.

[aevogt]

She bullies Nynaeve because she busted her in a lie one too many times and Ny needed to be steered towards the right path.  How you can say that the Amrylin Seat disciplining a Sister under her authority as being "petty" escapes me.  It's not as though she ordered her beaten, which is what the Aiel Wise Ones would have done.

 

They are dosing her with forkroot so they don't have to maintain a shield on her.  Once the fireworks start, the Tower AS won't be dosing her and the effects of the forkroot, much weaker than was given to Elayne as she is able to embrace the Source, will wear off in less than an hour.  This is probably why RJ decided that forkroot would be the method they chose, rather than being shielded and shadowed by a pair os AS all the live long day, it makes it much easier to for Egwene to escape to rally the Tower.   

 

During the first moments of the Seanchan attack, she will free Leanne, who I now fervently hope is not BA, and begins mustering her troops as the effects of the frokroot diminish and she regains her full strength.  Leanne will likely Travel immediately from deep within the Tower, (where she is currently being held in the open cells) and the rebel channelers will enter the Tower via the basements in linked circles of 4 to 13. 

 

As the Sul'dam/Damane don't know how to form real circles, (or do they, correct me if I'm wrong) any gains they have made from the top down will be crushed fairly quickly facing circles far stronger than they themselves are and the attack will turn into a route with Egwene's forces taking the Tower, Gareth Bryne taking the rest of the city (after kicking Gawyn Trakand hard enough to dislodge his head from deep within his ass, it makes a loud pop on it's way out) and the surviving Seanchan retreating as quickly as possible and holding up in the Ogier Grove to try to rgroup.  By this time, Tuon will have reached an accord with Rand, one provision of which will be cessation of any hostilities against either of the Towers.

 

I think all that works.

[Snowy Dawn]

``Leanne will likely Travel immediately from deep within the Tower.''

 

She is not strong enough in the power to travel, but Egwene could open a gateway to get her to the camp, where she could spread the alarm, etc. But, of course, at that point, maybe both would go, with Egwene going to lead the rebels to aid in repelling the Seanchan.

[Luckers]

No Egwene is petty, she likes to bully nyneave now because she can(though it won't work anymore).  A question occured to me and since we are sorta talking about it I'll ask.  Luckers, or anyone else, how do you think egwene will get over the forkroot?  My thought is Eliada will just have her shielded until she can be stilled and executed.  Otherwise I don't see how egwene evacuates the tower.  Thoughts.

 

I don't really see how you can suggest Egwene is petty. She's taking beatings and holding no grudges all for the purpose of the greater good--that seems to me to be a clear sign of just how rationally controlled she is.

 

As for her traveling--she need merely link, or display the weave, or have one of the other Tower Aes Sedai who know how to travel form the weave.

[Snowy Dawn]

``Aside from her being powerless,

 

She's not powerless for what they need. She's handy, and as must be clear to them now, probably still some authority to the camp of the Hall-in-Exile, as it is called by the rebels. Else why have not the rebels, other than Beonin, started returning to the Tower? Unless Yukiri has word from Beonin, they do not know about Egwene's abilities in TAR, and thus that she is still in command of the rebellion, but they have to see the facts on the ground. With that  in mind, if the five are to approach the rebels, some sign of approval from Egwene (say a signed order :-) would be useful, and I expect them, or at least Saerin or Seaine among them, to see that. Do you really expect any of them just to wander thru Gareth Bryne's lines to seek out someone they know among the rebels? And who among them do they trust anyway to approach in the matter? (They ought to approach Siuan, but do they know that? And Siuan would immediately have them recruit Egwene, I warrant you.)

 

Further Egwene, once sworn in, can do one thing for them that they might very much wish to able to do, viz., teach them to Travel. Pevara now knows how to do this, but she can hardly tell the other four: once they, all sitters, learned about Elaida's restrictions on whom Beonin may teach, their allegiance, fragile as it already is in the case of Saerin (and also Doesine, but Pevara does not know that yet), might disappear, and Elaida might then well be done for. Pevara knows that Evanellein, one of the the other Gray sitters, has already expressed a desire to pull Elaida down. Yukiri says ``that can't be allowed now'' after telling Pevara about Evanellein (beginning of KoD), but how long will that sentiment last if Yukiri learns that Elaida is only letting Beonin teach some among the Reds, and none other? Also that conversation takes place before Egwene and Leanne are captured. [Re Doesine's allegiance, I am assuming that her reaction to Egwene's insistence that she is still the Amyrlin Seat, in particular her failure to chastise Egwene for it, indicates that she is less than enthusiastic about Elaida. See ``Honey in the Tea'' in KoD]

 

 

``they have no reason to think she is trustworthy.''

 

They have the means to change that: viz. the oath rod. They would have to swear her to the first oath at any rate before they could find out from her what they might get from her cooperation in their hunt. They do not know, of course, the Siuan sent Egwene along with Nynaeve and Elayne in pursuit of Liandrin and the others. I suppose they could only learn that by talking to Egwene, but if they learned that (yes, this seems unlikely at present) they would surely be interested in pulling Egwene in.

 

``They have a far larger list of Aes Sedai they know well enough to judge to approach before Egwene.''

 

See above. Among the rebels, whom? And how, without Egwene's help, do they get access?

 

They havne

[aevogt]

Let me rephrase my original question.

 

Once Egwene is in full control of the Tower and all the Aes Sedai therin, or out, will she try those five sitters for treason for their treatment of the 10 ferrets, which seems to be a clear violation fo Tower Law directed at followers of the now rightful Amyrlin.