Taim: Third Age Born--New Chosen.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Spot-on with that one, Maj.

[Myndrunner]

What if Rand joins the Dark One in the end?  What if HE is the Nablis?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Then, obviously the Dark wins.

 

The point is that the only way the Light stands any chance at all is if Rand makes it to TG. 

 

If he stays true to the Light, the Light probably wins.  If he turns to the Dark during the Battle, the Light mightmaybe if they hold their mouths just right win anyway.  If he dies or  turns beforehand, the Light goes out.

[Myndrunner]

Maybe that is the purpose of the other two Ta'veren, and the three ladies (Min, Elayne, Aviendha) are to pull him back to the Light, or to balance the temptation of going to the dark side.  It's been done before, Darth Vader was saved by Luke, one of the twins.....hmmm.....no, RJ wouldn't steal that plot.

 

Keep in mind that even Frodo Baggins lost his mind in the end, but it was Sam who saved him, and thus the world. 

 

We also have the rescue and inevitable return of Aunt Moraine, who will probably appear at TG with Mat and maybe Thom, if he doesn't pay the ultimate sacrifice to save her.

 

I just love my theories, especially when I discover that I am waaaaaaaaaay off!

 

-Myndrunner

[Bob T Dwarf]

hehehe...

 

yeah, we all feel like life is a beach when that happens to us.

[Luckers]

I was speaking of the trip to Shayol Ghoul Bob. That should have been pretty obvious.

 

What should be obvious, is that if her trip to SG had resulted in any sort of mark bestowed by the DO, Shaidar Haran would not have marked her later.  The only mark she has is the one SH gave her, and as the quote from Jordan that I posted makes clear, she is not any kind of "Chosen".

 

She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it.

 

That is obvious, which is why i mentioned nothing of the sort.

[Luckers]

Alviarin has never been to the Pit of Doom.  She was very possibly one of te Sisters at the Darkfriend meeting at the beginning of TGH, which means she has been to Shayol Ghul, but that does not necessarily mean she walked the path down into the Mountain.

 

She tells Fain only that she had heard about it, probably from another BA Sister who had made the trip.

 

True, I missed that. Good catch.

 

 

[Twilight_Wolf]

The Black Wind in the ways was a by-product of the tain on Sadin which helped to create it if my memory serves me correctly. When Rand cleansed the taint, is it not possible that the damage to the ways has repaired itself thus allowing for safe passage now?

 

Another point. Since the taint was a creation of the DO would not the Black Wind also be under the control of the DO? As the seals on his prison weaken, I suppose he would have the power to deal with the Black Wind long enough for a division of trollocs to make safe passage through the ways.

 

This Taim theory is compelling and I give you credit for being so insightfull.

[Myndrunner]

I was speaking of the trip to Shayol Ghoul Bob. That should have been pretty obvious.

 

"Shayol Ghul Bob" should have been a character in the book!!! heh heh heh...

 

-Mynd

[Majsju]

The Black Wind in the ways was a by-product of the tain on Sadin which helped to create it if my memory serves me correctly. When Rand cleansed the taint, is it not possible that the damage to the ways has repaired itself thus allowing for safe passage now?

 

Another point. Since the taint was a creation of the DO would not the Black Wind also be under the control of the DO? As the seals on his prison weaken, I suppose he would have the power to deal with the Black Wind long enough for a division of trollocs to make safe passage through the ways.

 

Machin Shin will not go away as a result of the cleansing. And it is not an actual creation of the DO, more a side effect. And as such not under the DOs control.

 

Someone had a question about Machin Shin in the Ways. Since it seems to absorb the creatures that pass through there. Could you regard them as a servant of the dark one or perhaps almost as a forsaken?

RJ: Its not a servant of the Dark One. It will kill Trollocs or anything else. You can say its a parasite that grew in the Ways because of the Taint and the one power that was used to initially create the Ways. The talisman of growing that was used to extend the Ways.

So its not a servant of the Dark One, but its definitely on the evil side.

 

Would it be cleaned with the Cleansing of Saidin.

RJ: No. Its like a bacteria breed. Just by cleaning up the chemicals that caused the bacteria to come into existence, unless its feeding on that, those chemicals, you are not going to destroy the bacteria. You simply cut off what helped to create it.

 

 

http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9916/t/First-dragon-con-report.html

[Charlz Guybon]

 

This is what i suggest. Around fifteen or sixteen years ago we know that Ishamael was in one of his free cycles (he personally physically forced Jarna Milari into the ter'angreal that killed her)

 

What book/chapter is this mentioned in?

[aevogt]

It's mentioned by Alviarin in the Prologue to A Crown of Swords.  Ishmael shoved her into the Ter'Angreal as punishment for killing Tamra Ospenya without permission and made Alviarin the head of the Black

[Cybertrolloc]

No other comments on Taim behind the KoD battle? I'm disappointed, paging Mr Ares!

 

Maybe better to not discuss, my post on page 2 wasn't so hot anyway ;)

[aevogt]

Actually, I fully agree that he was behind the Trolloc attack in KoD.  The fact that Moridin knows that the Fades were ordered is even more evidence of the Chosen Mark.

 

You don't move 100,000 Trollocs over 1000 leagues (from the Blight to Tear) without the Chosen Mark.  I just don't see how it being possible for someone who cannot reliably order one thousand Fades to move 1000 fists. Man, that's a whole lotta compulsion.

 

I do think it would be possible to move that many through the ways.

 

Our descriptions of the way show that travelers ancounter the first turnings almost immediately.  I have theorized that there is a Waygate in or near the Blight where the very first turing is Stedding Shangtai.  This being the case, any Fist of Trollocs entering the Ways at that gate would literally be leaving as the last of their group entered.  With so little time in transit, there would be nothing for Machin Shin to zero in on. 

 

An alternate theory I have been toying with is that when Shadar Logoth was destroyed, Mashadar entered the ways and one of three things happened.

 

1. It consumed Machin Shin

 

2. Machin Shin destroyed Mashadar

 

3. They merged in the manner of the Mordeth/Fain.

 

In the first case, Machin Shin moves very slowly so it may not be able to travel the Ways in the same manner MS did and therefore unless you entered the Ways right on top of it, you're safer than before.

 

Second, Machin Shin consumning all the evil of Aridhol would send it into hibernation, kind of like your father after Thanksgiving dinner.  It'll be back once it can button it's pants.

 

A merging of the two?  I don't even have a clue what the result of this scenario would be.  Were I a betting man, I'd have to go with not good.  Maybe something that could leave the Ways. 

 

At the beginning of CoT, Mat notices a mist moving across the harbor at Ebou Dar, against the wind, and I always assumed it was a bubble of evil the like of which was mentioned as hitting the Rahad earlier as well as the rebel army in Cairhien.  What if that's not it at all, what if the "horrible consequences" alluded to are that when the source was cleansed and SL destroyed, it provided a way for Mashadar/Shin to escape?

 

 

 

[Rasta Ashaman]

Actually, I fully agree that he was behind the Trolloc attack in KoD.  The fact that Moridin knows that the a) Fades were ordered is even more evidence of the Chosen Mark.

 

You don't move 100,000 Trollocs over 1000 leagues (from the Blight to Tear) without the Chosen Mark.  I just don't see how it being possible for someone who cannot reliably order one thousand Fades to move 1000 fists. Man, that's a b) whole lotta compulsion.

 

I do think it would be possible to c) move that many through the ways.

 

 

There's one person that could possibly do a), b) and c) - apart from Taim or any other Chosen posing as Sammael or any other one, and would not need any Chosen mark.

 

Padan Fain.

 

a) He does know how to persuade a Myrddraal.

b) If he can do it with one Fade, he could do it with a 1000

c) Padan Fain is buddy-buddy with Machin Shin

 

He is obsessed with getting Rand personally, of course, but still, he could do it.

[aevogt]

Good point.  Still, he had to torture that Fade to get it to obey.  It wasn't a matter of barking orders.

 

Does anyone know what became of his pet Fade?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Rand?  Somebody, found one nailed to a door in a village they passed through.

[aevogt]

He can kill a Fade or turture it badly enough that it will do what he says, but he cannot just give an order to 1000 fades and expect instant obedience.  Also, he is on the DO's death list and the Fades may be aware of this.

 

Also, Fain would not be able to disguise himself as Sammael.

[Rasta Ashaman]

Rand?  Somebody, found one nailed to a door in a village they passed through.

 

That was in TDR, during the Hunt; and that was one Fade that tried taking the bunch that freed Fain and stole the Horn to the Blight, which displeased Fain, obviously. Second pet Fade was still with Fain in Two Rivers; Padan kept him alive, after gently persuading to follow his orders. That's why I think it could be Fain - since the news about the Ueber-DF could spread pretty quickly through "The Shadow Grapevine" bulletins :)

 

Sammael? Mashadar got him; and Fain is Mashadar (in a way)

[Luckers]

To me, the mostly likely explanation for the absense of Machin Shin is that it continued evolving from its encounter with Fain--we know it was changing following that, and we havn't seen in more than a year--with relatively large changes witnessed in just a matter of months prior to that.

 

I don't know what it is now, but the reason for it almost certainly has to be its interaction with Fain, to my mind.

[Cybertrolloc]

Just throwing it out there. My scenario would be Taim would compulse a few Myrdraal who would convey phony orders to others and so on, if he weren't Chosen yet.

 

Using the Ways isn't so cut and dry. Liandrin did, so I guess that there's at least some Shadow knowledge of them going on (it's been a while, I know she had notes, but we don't know how much info she needed from the markers to get them where they were going).

 

Fain I like less than Taim for the Trolloc horde. (By the way, I'm not sure we know what became of his Fade.) True, Fain can find Rand, and Rand had been on the estate in Tear for at least two weeks. Last we saw Taim was right before the Cleansing high tailing it out of Far Madding. Time-wise it's pretty tight for him with assuming that he can instantly turn enough Myrdraal to put that force together, something I don't think he can do. RJ has mentioned Fain's focus on killing Rand personally a few times to my knowledge, I think that's a big disqualification right there.

[troubldgal]

How did that many shadowspawn get through the ways? It was said that the great the number travelling the ways, the quicker it will draw Machin Shin in. 1000 would draw in instantly as we know there were a lot more than 1000 trollocs. It is possible that they knew Rands location and sent them there over a few weeks, building up numbers the same way they did in the Two Rivers.

 

Taim wouldnt be made a Chosen, yes he is as strong as one, but he lacks the experience of the other Chosen, those who journeyed to the Pit of Doom and pledged their souls before the Great Lord. That is also the mark of the Chosen. I can't see Taim doing that, at least not until Rand teaches him to Travel. He is at most a highly placed Dreadlord, maybe not even that if the Chosen are willing to risk him on what could be a suicide mission.

 

Rand taught Taim the weave for Traveling when he first started sending him out to recruit for the Black Tower.

[OsaroLJ]

What if Sammael's soul has been transmigrated?  :o HE'S BACK!!

[aevogt]

Except in the weekly question that was being done by Tor, he came right out and said Sammael is toast and will not be seen again.

[Myndrunner]

Bah, these Forsaken are like cockroaches!! You can't kill them!  Once you flick the lights off, they keep coming back......anyone have a can of raid?