Rand, linked to the Horn of Valere?

[Majsju]

The part where they are working with a very limited time, before the male channelers gets too tainted to be able to create the Eye perhaps...

[Bob T Dwarf]

You mean those same male channelers, that a hundred or more years on help create the Stone of Tear, and help set the Wards on Callandor?

 

Yeah, obviously, if they don't give up right now, there just won't be any male channelers left who can do complicated stuff.

 

Besides it just makes so much more sense to passively let civilization descend to the lowest possible level without ever using the one tool they have left that could arrest the slide.  That way, when the Dragon is reborn he'll be sure to have to start with the greatest possible disadvantage.

 

Yup, uh huh.  Good plan.  NOT.

[Nethran Thaimal]

The heroes bound to the horn will only follow the Dragon.  And what are they supposed to do during the breaking?  Stick around a few hundred years, spread throughout the various lands, hunting male channelers? I don't think it works that way.

 

The only time the Horn would have reason to be used after the War of Shadow is during the Trolloc Wars or the Aiel War(those are the only times where a large armies were threatening civilization and could be countered with another large army), but it's buried at the bottom of a pool of saidin at those times, so people had to suffer.

[Bob T Dwarf]

See, that's my contention also.

 

Maj seems to think that Falme was unique.  That Falme was the only time the Heroes were constrained to follow the banner and the Dragon.

 

I say they always have to follow the banner and a living Dragon.

 

That's the bones of the dispute.  It's all back on the previous page if you'd like to review.

[Nethran Thaimal]

We have come to the horn' date=' but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.[/quote']

 

When called by the horn, they must follow the banner and the Dragon.

[Luckers]

Nice emphasis, but its pointless. Hawkwing was speaking of that moment--he uses present tense and everything. "We have come for the Horn. Blah, blah, blah". His comments were specific to that particular moment. Nothing about whenever they answer the Horn having to follow the Dragon--indeed, thats directly contradicting everything we've been told about the Horn.

 

Personally i take it further than Maj. I feel that whilst the Pattern was indeed pulling them in Rand's general direction, as much in that scene was done because of their personal comradarie with the Dragon soul. They have a VERY long history with his soul, and feel a great personal connection to it, both as a friend and as a leader.

 

It's like soldiers coming to an SOS and finding a beloved and respected general there, and then following him into battle. It makes sense--both the fact that they follow him, and in the fervor in which they want to.

 

Thats where i feel people get confused--the Horn is a weapon, yes. But it is a weapon that involve concious, intelligent individuals.

 

As for why it wasn't used during the breaking--it seems to large of a weapon to be involved in that sort of situation. There is simply too much chaos, and too wide spread, for it to be used effectively. It's be like using a nuke to deal with a mad gunman at a mall. And thats assuming that the foretellings didn't specific the exact need to put it in the Eye immediately.

[Majsju]

You mean those same male channelers, that a hundred or more years on help create the Stone of Tear, and help set the Wards on Callandor?

 

Yeah, obviously, if they don't give up right now, there just won't be any male channelers left who can do complicated stuff.

 

Besides it just makes so much more sense to passively let civilization descend to the lowest possible level without ever using the one tool they have left that could arrest the slide.  That way, when the Dragon is reborn he'll be sure to have to start with the greatest possible disadvantage.

 

Yup, uh huh.  Good plan.   NOT.

 

Wow, we know that Foretelling exists, but actually knowing so much about the futute that they can act safe in the knowledge that despite more male channelers going bonkers every day, there will a about a hundred sane enough available when they are needed, just as they can know for sure that Someshta will survive no matter what happens.

 

Apparently, it does not work that way in these books. People do not know anything about the future, except for what Foretellings tell them. In this case, the Foretellng they have to play with is that the Dragon will be reborn, he will need the Eye, and the Horn must be there.

 

And as they say during the meeting Rand sees in Rhuidean, they have no choice but to go forward with creating the Eye, and Callandor must wait.

 

As for "saving their society"...Their society is already dead, most of it was destroyed during the war.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Societies are an amalgam of many things.  Foremost among those is knowledge.

 

As long as they retain their knowledge base, what has been destroyed can be rebuilt.  But, if they give-up.  Lay down and die.  That knowledge base dies with them, and mankind is in for a long Dark Age.

 

The longer the wait until the Horn is used, the greater the disadvantage its use must overcome.  Preserving the Horn was important.  So was preserving and restoring as much of civilization as they could.  Use of the Horn does not preclude preservation of the Horn.  Non-use does lead to a Dark Age and precludes the preservation of society.

 

That's a choice that is clear enough and easy enough that even an Aes Sedai could grasp it.

 

Luckers, while I don't agree with your nukes analogy, but just so you might grasp the concepts -

 

The Horn might be likened to a Tactical battlefield nuke.  Suitable for small, contained engagements.  Kiloton or sub-kiloton level stuff.  Tarmon Gai'don might be compared to total global war.  The kind that requires strategic nukes.  Multi-megaton stuff. 

 

Once things reach that pass, relying on the Heroes to be your ace-in-the-hole is like trying to put out a forest fire with a garden hose.  You might use it because it's all you've got, but no rational person would believe it would make any real difference.  In fact, if the fire is big enough and hot enough, a garden hose won't even keep the person using it safe.

 

They come to the Horn, but they follow the banner.  And, the Dragon.  Always have, always will.

 

Without a living Dragon, the Heroes are powerless to act.

 

Why else do you think the Dark has been so intent on either turning Rand, or acquiring either the Horn or the banner, or both?  If they can turn Rand, the Horn is useless to the Light.  If they acquire the Horn, or the banner, or both, Rand is much less useful to the Light.  If they can do both things, they believe that TG will be a walkover for team Dark.  Killing Rand has always been the last option.  Only sanctioned when they think they have acquired the Horn and banner.

[Majsju]

The longer the wait until the Horn is used, the greater the disadvantage its use must overcome.  Preserving the Horn was important.  So was preserving and restoring as much of civilization as they could.  Use of the Horn does not preclude preservation of the Horn.  Non-use does lead to a Dark Age and precludes the preservation of society.

 

RJ told us there was a prophecy saying that the Horn must be sealed up with the Dragon banner. That is the fact we are dealing with. The creation of the Eye had to be done quickly, another fact straight from the books.

There is no room for anyone running around blowing the Horn, it does not fit with the books, and ot does not fit with what RJ has told us. So your arguments are irrelevant.

 

They come to the Horn, but they follow the banner.  And, the Dragon.  Always have, always will.

 

You wanting it to be so does not make it so. Face it, you have zero evidence for this claim. Everything we know speaks against it.

 

Why else do you think the Dark has been so intent on either turning Rand, or acquiring either the Horn or the banner, or both?  If they can turn Rand, the Horn is useless to the Light.  If they acquire the Horn, or the banner, or both, Rand is much less useful to the Light.  If they can do both things, they believe that TG will be a walkover for team Dark.  Killing Rand has always been the last option.  Only sanctioned when they think they have acquired the Horn and banner.

 

So where are the shadow being so "intent" on acquiring the Horn? Aginor and Balthamel at the Eye? Sorry mate, they had a different agenda. Fain stealing the Horn? Nope, he had a different agenda (acquiring the dagger), and he had betrayed the shadow at that point. Lanfear insisting on Rand blowing the Horn? Different agenda. And on.

 

Though, even if the shadow had been intent on acquiring the Horn, would not that be a quite understandable course of action, having the heroes fighting for the shadow could make things really messed up during TG.

 

 

[ShadowsFell]

They come to the Horn, but they follow the banner.  And, the Dragon.  Always have, always will.

 

You wanting it to be so does not make it so. Face it, you have zero evidence for this claim. Everything we know speaks against it.

 

 

I actually disagree with you here, and it can be argued that it is you that have no evidence.  The impression that I got is that all Randlanders beleive that the Heroes follow the horn.  If I remember, they got this from the Aes Sedai, and from the Forsaken, etc.  However, if the horn has never been used before, only the oringal makers of the horn in the AoL would have known EXACTLY how the horn works.  Even the Forsaken from the AoL would have only rumors, and their best judgment, to act on.  The only TRUE knowledge could come from those bound to the horn, or from the makers.

 

However, the only in-world, horn-blowing evidence we have states that the Heroes follow the Dragon not the horn.  They come to the horn, but the follow the Banner, and the Dragon.  Its even stated that the heroes could not advance, and were "bound", until the banner was present.

 

Hawkwing did not say "just this time we only follow the Dragon" or "its only because I like you, Dragon, that I will follow you this time", but "we must follow the Banner.  And the Dragon".  "Must" is a very strong word.

 

The thought setting up a plot that all of Randland believes one thing (heroes follow the horn), but the reality of it is something else (heroes come to horn but follow dragon), would be right up RJs ally.

 

 

[Nethran Thaimal]

I'm 100% in agreement with ShadowsFell. Just for the record.

[Majsju]

Hawkwing did not say "just this time we only follow the Dragon" or "its only because I like you, Dragon, that I will follow you this time", but "we must follow the Banner.  And the Dragon".  "Must" is a very strong word.

 

Actually, that is exactly what he does say.

 

"The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters," Arthur Hawkwing said. "You are here.The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

 

The weave if this moment is set. Enlighten me, what could he possibly be refering to, if not this particular moment carrying a uniqueness that forces the Heroes to do something out of the ordinary? And why the comment about the Pattern weaving itself around their necks? If they could only follow the Dragon, the Pattern would have nothing to do with this.

 

And if the Heroes were limited to follow the Dragon, and noone else, why would they come to the Horn no matter who blows it in the first place? The people who created the Horn thought the Heroes would enjoy some fresh air once in a while?

[Nethran Thaimal]

Or they knew that the hornsounder would not be the Dragon, but the Dragon would need the heroes.  We cannot tell how far the Fortelling went when they realized the need for the Horn.

[Majsju]

Or they knew that the hornsounder would not be the Dragon, but the Dragon would need the heroes.  We cannot tell how far the Fortelling went when they realized the need for the Horn.

 

Uhm, huh?

Exactly what is this supposed to be a reply to?

[ShadowsFell]

"The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters," Arthur Hawkwing said. "You are here.The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

 

The weave if this moment is set. Enlighten me, what could he possibly be refering to, if not this particular moment carrying a uniqueness that forces the Heroes to do something out of the ordinary? And why the comment about the Pattern weaving itself around their necks? If they could only follow the Dragon, the Pattern would have nothing to do with this.

 

And if the Heroes were limited to follow the Dragon, and noone else, why would they come to the Horn no matter who blows it in the first place? The people who created the Horn thought the Heroes would enjoy some fresh air once in a while?

 

As far as only following the dragon, I think it was kind of a fail-safe, to make it less easy for the Heroes to follow the dark.  The Dragon was always the epitome of the leader, even more than Hawkwing ... who else WOULD they follow, if not the dragon?

 

As far as the "weave of this moment is set", I believe he is just refering to all the conditions have been set, thus the weave is set.  As in:

 

* Has the Horn been sounded?  yes?  Okay, check.

* Is the Dragon here?  yes?  Okay, check.

* Is the Banner here?  yes?  Okay, check.

 

Once all three requirements were set, the weave was set, as in it was definitate the the heroes could do their thing.  Maybe it was an alternate possiblity that maybe Rand didn't ever show the banner, and then the Heroes would have to go away.  Or maybe the banner could have been stolen, and thus also the heroes couldn't do anything.

 

It was my understanding that it meant that all "keys" were present and "turned", allowing the Heroes to do their thing ... follow the Dragon in the fight, wherever he lead.

[xander]

You mean those same male channelers, that a hundred or more years on help create the Stone of Tear, and help set the Wards on Callandor?

 

Yeah, obviously, if they don't give up right now, there just won't be any male channelers left who can do complicated stuff.

 

Besides it just makes so much more sense to passively let civilization descend to the lowest possible level without ever using the one tool they have left that could arrest the slide.  That way, when the Dragon is reborn he'll be sure to have to start with the greatest possible disadvantage.

 

Yup, uh huh.  Good plan.   NOT.

 

I think its about prophecy.  The channelers in the AoL knew that the battle couldn't be won in their time.  They followed prophecy and stashed the Horn and other items for Rand to fight and maybe win the battle at a later time.  

 

It is actually a nice contrast in the thought processes of channelers in the AoL Vs. those in Rands day who think they know what is going on.  The channelers in the AoL believe in and follow prophecy, understanding that it will be fulfilled in its own time and in its own way.  The channelers in Rands day try to force prophecy to their will and bring it about as they think it should unfold.

 

So, knowing that the battle can't be won in the AoL, they did sacrifice their lives and the kingdoms and lives of countless others in the knowledge that the battle will be fought and possibly won at a later date.

[Majsju]

As far as the "weave of this moment is set", I believe he is just refering to all the conditions have been set, thus the weave is set.  As in:

 

* Has the Horn been sounded?  yes?  Okay, check.

* Is the Dragon here?  yes?  Okay, check.

* Is the Banner here?  yes?  Okay, check.

 

Sorry, but that makes no sense at all. It does in no way fit with the context of what hawkwing is saying here.

 

And also, what people do not say is sometimes even more important than what they do say. Hawkwing knows that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. He knows that Rand is fated to fight TG. He knows that Rand does not remember any of the knowledge LTT had. And yet he does not think it might be somewhat important to tell rand that he must be present if the Horn is blown? Great idea, let Rand find out for himself.

[Nethran Thaimal]

My reply was to you, Majsju.

 

And if the Heroes were limited to follow the Dragon, and noone else, why would they come to the Horn no matter who blows it in the first place? The people who created the Horn thought the Heroes would enjoy some fresh air once in a while?

[Majsju]

So people living before the AOL had a Foretelling about the end of the 3rd Age?

 

Wow...

 

I think I will keep sticking to what the books and RJ tell us.

[Luckers]

Luckers, while I don't agree with your nukes analogy, but just so you might grasp the concepts -

 

The Horn might be likened to a Tactical battlefield nuke.  Suitable for small, contained engagements.  Kiloton or sub-kiloton level stuff.  Tarmon Gai'don might be compared to total global war.  The kind that requires strategic nukes.  Multi-megaton stuff. 

 

Once things reach that pass, relying on the Heroes to be your ace-in-the-hole is like trying to put out a forest fire with a garden hose.  You might use it because it's all you've got, but no rational person would believe it would make any real difference.  In fact, if the fire is big enough and hot enough, a garden hose won't even keep the person using it safe.

 

... what? Dude, i was talking about the Heroes being too large scale to deal with the general widespread but individually minor chaotic points of the breaking.

 

They come to the Horn, but they follow the banner.  And, the Dragon.  Always have, always will.

 

Without a living Dragon, the Heroes are powerless to act.

 

That suggestion has quite obviously been disproven--its directly against the statements in the text about the Horn, and has no sustaining evidence except a comment that quite clearl speaks of a specific individual instant, and that instant only.

 

Why else do you think the Dark has been so intent on either turning Rand, or acquiring either the Horn or the banner, or both? If they can turn Rand, the Horn is useless to the Light.  If they acquire the Horn, or the banner, or both, Rand is much less useful to the Light.  If they can do both things, they believe that TG will be a walkover for team Dark.  Killing Rand has always been the last option.  Only sanctioned when they think they have acquired the Horn and banner.

 

They are intent on turning Rand because his soul is and always has been the leading figure in the fight against them. They've shown no over effort to attain either the Horn or the banner--indeed, Lanfear had it in her hands and left it, and the Banner was displayed on top of Tear for some time and would have been easily taken had they wanted it.

 

In other words, you're completely wrong.

 

I actually disagree with you here, and it can be argued that it is you that have no evidence.  The impression that I got is that all Randlanders beleive that the Heroes follow the horn.  If I remember, they got this from the Aes Sedai, and from the Forsaken, etc.  However, if the horn has never been used before, only the oringal makers of the horn in the AoL would have known EXACTLY how the horn works.  Even the Forsaken from the AoL would have only rumors, and their best judgment, to act on.  The only TRUE knowledge could come from those bound to the horn, or from the makers.

 

Actually the belief is that the Heroes will serve the Light only, and we know this to be a false belief. That they will follow the Horn--and whoever sounds it--is the truth known only to a few.

 

However, the only in-world, horn-blowing evidence we have states that the Heroes follow the Dragon not the horn.  They come to the horn, but the follow the Banner, and the Dragon.  Its even stated that the heroes could not advance, and were "bound", until the banner was present.

 

All specific to the moment--and furthermore to the people. Ut's stated specifically as such.

 

As far as only following the dragon, I think it was kind of a fail-safe, to make it less easy for the Heroes to follow the dark.  The Dragon was always the epitome of the leader, even more than Hawkwing ... who else WOULD they follow, if not the dragon?

 

Yet clearly such a fail-safe does not exist. The Heroes can and will follow a person of the Shadow.

 

As far as the "weave of this moment is set", I believe he is just refering to all the conditions have been set, thus the weave is set.  As in:

 

* Has the Horn been sounded?  yes?  Okay, check.

* Is the Dragon here?  yes?  Okay, check.

* Is the Banner here?  yes?  Okay, check.

 

The importance there is the word 'this'. Its specific to the moment, and we know the Wheel was pushing that moment. 'this moment' is set.

 

You see your argument would work if we didn't know from a seperate source that normally the Horn has no such requirements, from there that use of the specific instance holds all the importance in the world.

 

I'm sorry. We know the Heroes follow whoever sounds the Horn. In that specific situation the Wheel's push to have Rand announced Dragon, as well as the muddying effects of his ta'maral'ailen combined with the fluidity in reality created by the sounding of the Horn to bind the course of events--but it was nonetheless specific to that singular moment. All of the comments by the Heroes line up with this, and therefore there is in fact no basis for its suggestion, because to do that you'd need to deny another stated fact, and you have no evidence that specifically or remotely decries that fact.

 

 

[ShadowsFell]

The importance there is the word 'this'. Its specific to the moment, and we know the Wheel was pushing that moment. 'this moment' is set.

 

You see your argument would work if we didn't know from a seperate source that normally the Horn has no such requirements, from there that use of the specific instance holds all the importance in the world.

 

I'm sorry. We know the Heroes follow whoever sounds the Horn. In that specific situation the Wheel's push to have Rand announced Dragon, as well as the muddying effects of his ta'maral'ailen combined with the fluidity in reality created by the sounding of the Horn to bind the course of events--but it was nonetheless specific to that singular moment. All of the comments by the Heroes line up with this, and therefore there is in fact no basis for its suggestion, because to do that you'd need to deny another stated fact, and you have no evidence that specifically or remotely decries that fact.

 

What seperate source are you referring to?   Unless the information came from a Hero bound to the horn, or directly from one of the Horn-makers, it is circumstantial.  So what if that is what the Aes Sedai believe?   It wouldn't be the first time they believed something false.  So what if that is what the forsaken think?   Unless they were one of the orignal makers, it is hearsay, circumstantial evidence.  Even prophesy is very vague, and often misunderstood by both us and the characters.  The only direct fact comes from Hawkwing - "we must follow the banner.  And the Dragon" ... thats pretty  blunt.   I honestly think you and Maj. are nit-picking, reading too much into it, and ignoring or rationalizing away Hawkwing's statement.

 

:) I think this is something where we are just going to have to agree to disagree, as everything I can see points to the fact that Hawkwing's statement is true, and that the Aes Sedai and whomever think incorrectly.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

I think its about prophecy.  The channelers in the AoL knew that the battle couldn't be won in their time.  They followed prophecy and stashed the Horn and other items for Rand to fight and maybe win the battle at a later time.  

 

It is actually a nice contrast in the thought processes of channelers in the AoL Vs. those in Rands day who think they know what is going on.  The channelers in the AoL believe in and follow prophecy, understanding that it will be fulfilled in its own time and in its own way.  The channelers in Rands day try to force prophecy to their will and bring it about as they think it should unfold.

 

So, knowing that the battle can't be won in the AoL, they did sacrifice their lives and the kingdoms and lives of countless others in the knowledge that the battle will be fought and possibly won at a later date.

 

You make a good argument, there.

 

My position is that belief in Foretelling ( which, by definition from the books is a general,  not specific knowledge about future events ), would not stop them from addressing an immediate problem.  Especially if the Horn worked as Maj believes it does.  According to Maj's belief ( if I understand it correctly ) anyone can sound the Horn at any time for any reason, and order the Heroes off to accomplish any task.

 

To borrow from Luckers' nuke analogy, there are multiple levels of safeguard placed upon the use of nuclear weapons.  It takes specific intent, coded access to special protocols, and more than a single operator to launch/detonate a nuke.  I deem it equally mandatory that a "weapon" as powerful as the Heroes of the Horn would have equally appropriate safeguards regarding its use.

 

Additionally, Maj, your belief requires that the Horn had just that day been discovered.  We have no evidence as to when it was found.  For all we know they'd had it for months, or even a few years before they were forced to abandon Paren Disen.  They certainly had to have had it for long enough for there to be a Foretelling about it.  Long enough to come up with something as difficult and elaborate as the Eye, and a pool of untainted saidin.  Long enough to work out how to keep he Eye and its real purpose hidden.

 

In short, they'd had the Horn for quite awhile before we finally see it in Rand's Rhuidean vision.  The fact that they never made any attempt to use it tells me that they knew trying would be futile, because the Dragon was already dead, and they knew enough about how it works to know that the Heroes would only "follow the banner.  And the Dragon."

[Bob T Dwarf]

You see your argument would work if we didn't know from a seperate source that normally the Horn has no such requirements, from there that use of the specific instance holds all the importance in the world.

 

I too would like to know what this "separate source" is.  If it exists and is credible, you will have proven your point.

[Majsju]

I honestly think you and Maj. are nit-picking, reading too much into it, and ignoring or rationalizing away Hawkwing's statement.

 

"Reading too much into it" would rather be inventing alternative interpretations to what a character actually says, in order to make it fit with a completely unsupported "theory".

 

And then, while reports from book signings sometimes lack full confirmation, this particular report has been cross-posted at the FAQ which increases its credibility.

 

Q: Hawkwing says they follow the banner and the Dragon.  Moiraine says the Heroes will follow whoever winds the horn.  Was Moiraine wrong?

A: *Arch look* Moiraine doesn't know everything.  She was speaking the truth as she knows it.  (I took this to imply that Moir was misinformed, and the conflict resolved, until he continued.)  However, she *is* correct in that whoever sounds the horn "controls the Heroes."  [exact quote] (I started to get confused at this point.  Is Moir right or is she wrong?  What's he trying to tell me?)

 

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/stargate/8513/creator-horn.htm

[Luckers]

What seperate source are you referring to?  Unless the information came from a Hero bound to the horn, or directly from one of the Horn-makers, it is circumstantial.  So what if that is what the Aes Sedai believe?

 

The Aes Sedai don't believe it, they have seperate information that states it in contradiction to what is believed--that's nessasary, the way they speak of it denies personal belief as the source material.

 

More importantly though, Hawkwing's statement never contradicts it. His statement speaks specifically of the moment. You have neither basis nor circumstance to sustain your argument, and as such, in direct contradiction to a stated fact--and it is a stated fact, the mere reality that they state it in contradiction to popular belief substantiates seperate knowledge--your argument lacks credibility. I'm sorry but thats the sheer reality.

 

I think this is something where we are just going to have to agree to disagree, as everything I can see points to the fact that Hawkwing's statement is true, and that the Aes Sedai and whomever think incorrectly.

 

Hawkwing's statement is completely true. The Heroes were forced in that moment--both by the pull of the Wheel's need for Rand to be Dragon, Rand's ta'maral'ailen AND their own personal alleigences to the Dragon soul of whom they are eons-old friends and comrades.

 

Hawkwing's statement is completely true--but it doesn't suggest, state or imply any of what you've put forward. Nothing in it contradicts the Aes Sedai, nothing in it purports a perpetual link to the Dragon.

 

To borrow from Luckers' nuke analogy, there are multiple levels of safeguard placed upon the use of nuclear weapons.

 

Please don't involve me in your comments.