Rand, linked to the Horn of Valere?

[Guest Dreadlord]

Bare with me on this one people, I havent read the first four books in ages.

 

If I remember rightly, when Mat blew the Horn and the Heroes came, Rand was fighting someone (was it Ishamael?) and as Rand fought he could almost see/feel the Heroes fighting, and as he was forced to defend or pressed an attack so did the Heroes, it was as if Rands fight dictated the Heroes, like if Rand pressed an attack the Heroes did and if Rand was pressed in the fightbso were the Heroes. Did anyone else see that to be the case?

 

If so, does anyone else think that was odd, seeing as it wasn't Rand who blew the Horn? I would have thought that if anyone had that effect on the Heroes of the Horn it would have been the hornblower, ie Mat, especially because there is nothing in the prophecies that indicate a connection between the Dragon/Dragon Reborn and the Heroes. I don't see this as being down to Ta'veren.

[Rahlian]

I attributed this to the fact that he is the Dragon. The Hornsounder gathers the Heroes, but the Heroes follow the Dragon.

[Bob T Dwarf]

We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner.  And, the Dragon.

 

When they begin their advance, Rand has Hurin to one side and Perrin, acting as Bannerman on his other side. 

The clouds thickened hiding the far ends of the rank of heroes galloping to either side of him, obscuring more and more, till he could see only Mat and Perrin and Hurin clearly.

 

Then even they are gone and he is left to confront Ba'alzamon alone.

 

Then, every advance he made against Ba'alzy was mirrored in the fight in Falme.  Every time he was beaten back, the heroes were beaten back as well.

 

Even when he wasn't in sight, the Banner followed the Dragon, and the heroes followed both.

[Luckers]

My belief is that the fuzzy reality created by the sounding of the Horn was therefore more malleable to the effects of Rand's ta'maral'ailen, and that this was the cause--recall that Rand's ta'verenism is not a force directly in his favour, it pushes and pulls, causing good and evil both. It effectively loosens the reality around him enabling all normal chances to be heightened in effect.

 

When you throw in the weave and woof of the Wheel of Time is pushing for a Dragon, you have a situation that is malleable--and that, more or less, is what we see at Falme.

 

But no, the Heroes don't need the Dragon to lead them. They will follow whoever sounds the Horn--their respect for Rand has as much to do with his history as a Hero of the Horn, and a friend of theirs as it does the specific pull of the moment.

[Rahlian]

Well, they WILL follow the Hornsounder, be he Light or Shadow, but they are SUPPOSED to follow the Dragon. It is my belief that they are stronger when following him. No evidence to support this, just opinion.

[Majsju]

I am quite certain Falme was a unique situation. Rand was there, the Wheel demanded the Drgon Reborn, and decided to do something about it. Halting the Heroes until the dragon banner was produced was step one, broadcasting Rands fight with Ishy all over the place step two.

[Luckers]

You see, i disagree with the 'decide to do something about it' much less the steps. The Pattern was driving for a Dragon, and the pull of that like gravity presure the pattern--but it was the manifestations of Rand's ta'verenism interacting with the fuzziness caused by the Sounding of the Horn that allowed it to happen, and it happened in the normal manner of such things, push and pull, good and bad, Seanchan advancing and retreating... merely heightened.

[Majsju]

Even if your theory would be correct, it is still the Wheel that is the driving force behind what is happening. Ta'veren is just a tool to make sure the Wheel gets its way. After all, we do have RJ saying flat out that the Wheel was responsible for broadcasting the fight in the sky. If it can do that, it can very well hold back the Heroes until Rand stops being a baby and pulls out that little piece of cloth.

[Luckers]

I disagree, i think the wheel can be responsible for the broadcasting without having directly broadcast it itself. The push of its desire, the push of where it wishes events to go pushed on the flubby reality and various things occured, including that broadcasting--but it was just a generic gravity like pull, not the intentional action you describe.

 

And yes, i do agree that the wheel is the driving force, and that ta'veren is just a tool--indeed it makes sense to what im saying. When the Wheel needs to change the flow of events it spits out ta'veren who loosen the laws of reality and make chance more fluidic, and allowing things to flow more smoothly with the pull of the Wheels weaving.

 

Its the difference between a man reaching out and pushing someone over, and a wind coming along and blowing someone over. The same effect occurs, but the first is intentional action, the second is merely... directional effect. The wind certainly has a direction--a drive and a force to it, but it not... specific.

 

By the way im not trying to say mine is right and yours is wrong, we clearly dont have the evidence for that... this is just what i feel. I completely agree your interpretation could be correct--i just dont see it.

[Majsju]

Thing is, we do not disagree that much. My interpretation is that the Wheel is responsible (Confirmed), and that it is using tools in order to fix what must be fixed, in this specific case forcing Rand to proclaim himself the Dragon Reborn. The two interferences from the Wheel being forcing the Heroes to follow the banner, and broadcasting the fight in the sky.

 

There is of course a great possibility that the tools the Wheel uses here are those you think.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I really would have thought it was Mats ta'maral'ailen that influenced the Heroes, not Rands. Also I dont see the Horn having anything to do with the Pattern demanding the Dragon-anyone could have blown it. If that was the case then surely the Heroes would never have fought for the Shadow in previous situations such as this

[dlan4327]

Don't mean to pry, Dreadlord, but your signature doesn't leave much to the imagination at all. I mean Faile annoys me too... but that's harsh. ;)

[Guest Dreadlord]

What can I say, she brought it on herself, she deserves it. She tries to be one of the main female characters but fails misrably. She does absolutely nothing to further the story, other than contributing to Perrins small shred of development, and waste a shedload of time in KoD that Perrin could use in much better ways. I cant stand her

[Bob T Dwarf]

I am quite certain Falme was a unique situation. Rand was there, the Wheel demanded the Drgon Reborn, and decided to do something about it. Halting the Heroes until the dragon banner was produced was step one, broadcasting Rands fight with Ishy all over the place step two.

 

I'm equally certain that you're missing the mark this time, Maj. 

 

Follow the progression:

 

1.  The Horn was never used during the AoL.  Mostly because it wasn't needed, but certainly because nobody knew where it was.

2.  It was never used during the War of Power.  Again, nobody had found it yet.

3.  After the Sealing, when they are at the point of abandoning Paren Disen, both the Horn and the Banner have been found and are in AS hands.

 

Yet, they still have made no attempt to use it.  Why?  Anybody can sound it so long as it isn't currently linked to someone else.  Since it hasn't been used in at least an Age, it can't be linked to anyone living.

 

With it, and the Heroes, they can completely defeat the remaining forces of the Dark.  Vanquish every mad male channeler.  End the Breaking.  Restore their society.

 

Yet, they make no attempt to do so.  Pretty dumb.  Fatally dumb for untold thousands of people.

 

Unless, of course, they know that Sounding it will do no good, because the Dragon is already dead.  And, without a living Dragon, the Heroes are powerless to act.

 

Hawkwing stated nothing but the complete truth about how it always works:

"We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner.  And the Dragon."

[bearit]

I'm guessing it's because he is the Dragon Reborn.  A general might control the battle and give orders, but that doesn't mean he gave the order for the soldiers to wake up, someone lower done would have.

[Majsju]

With it, and the Heroes, they can completely defeat the remaining forces of the Dark.  Vanquish every mad male channeler.  End the Breaking.  Restore their society.

 

So, they should have chosen someone to blow the Horn, travel the world to find mad channelers, trollocs and other baddies, and attempt to take them out. Yeah, that would have worked...Err...

 

Yet, they make no attempt to do so.  Pretty dumb.  Fatally dumb for untold thousands of people.

 

Unless, of course, they know that Sounding it will do no good, because the Dragon is already dead.  And, without a living Dragon, the Heroes are powerless to act.

 

Or perhaps someone had, say a Foretelling that that the Dragon will be reborn, and fight the DO again at some point in the future, which pretty much tells them that however bad things look now, mankind will survive.

And perhaps they were on a tight schedule to create the Eye of the World, so that the male channelers involved would not be too effected by the Taint.

 

Oh wait, that is exactly what happened.

 

And just how would the Aes Sedai know that the Heroes would only follow the Dragon, when LTT never used the Horn? It came with a little note attached? And with so many stories surviving about the Horn, how come everyone managed to forget that particular little detail? Seems like a quite crucial detail if the Light ever attempts to use it...

 

Hawkwing stated nothing but the complete truth about how it always works:

"We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner.  And the Dragon."

 

Often it is easier to understand what someone is saying if you do not rip out the part of a quote that suits you, and ignores the rest...

[Bob T Dwarf]

Aaahhh, yes.  By all means.  Lets just wrap this thing up and stick it in a hole.  Actually using it and saving our society and millions of lives would just be too strenuous.  And, somebody might break a nail.  Much better to let things go on the way they are headed.

 

Naaaaaah.  I don't think so.  If they could have used it they would have used it.

 

If Falme was the unique event you believe, they had everything they needed to make use of the Horn during the Breaking.  But, Falme wasn't unique.

 

Using Heroes = Horn + banner + living Dragon.

 

All they had was Horn + banner.

[Majsju]

I think you have quite an unrealistic idea about what the Heroes are capable of. Taking down hundreds, if not thousands of insane channelers while at the same time hunting down shadowspawn? Come on, we are not exactly talking about an army of Supermans here. If they were that powerful, all rand would have to do for TG is to blow the Horn, then sit back and have a beer while the heroes kill all the forsaken, SH and a few milion trollocs. Strange how noone has even considered that...

 

And if saving society now was so high on their agenda, how come they locked callandor away, instead of giving it to a relatively sane male Aes Sedai (The Eye is evidence there were a few of those around), link with him so a female channeler controlled the weaves, and thus get a circle more powerful than any single male channeler could even dream of? Oh right, they planned for the future. How stupid of them...

[Bob T Dwarf]

We have no idea how or if Callandor was used.  All we know was that it ended up in the Heart of the Stone.

 

No, Rand couldn't sit back and have a beer.  Unless he wants the Heroes to sit back and have a beer too.  They only advance when he advances.  They stop when he stops.  They retreat when he retreats.  They, and his banner move and fight in lockstep with the Dragon.

 

..."The Wheel spins us out for its purposes not ours, to serve the Pattern.  I know you if you do not know yourself.  We will drive these invaders out for you."  His warhorse pranced, and he looked around frowning.  "Something is wrong here.  Something holds me."  Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand.  "You are here.  Have you the banner?"  A murmur ran through those behind him.

 

"Yes."  Rand tore open the straps of his saddlebags and puller out the Dragon's banner.  It filled his hands and hung almost to his stallion's knees.  The murmur among the Heroes rose.

 

"The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters."  Artur Hawkwing said.  "You are here.  The banner is here.  the weave of this moment is set.  We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner.  And the Dragon."...

 

The Horn had called them.  the Dragon was right in front of them.  Still they were powerless to act without the banner.  In case you've forgotten, Rand's little dust-up with Ba'alzy in the sky was just Rand and Ba'alzy.  No Heroes.  No banner.  Those were both back on the ground fighting in and around Falme.  So, the banner wasn't required to proclaim him to the world as the Dragon.  The projection in the sky was enough for that.

 

As at Falme, the Dragon's fight may be in environs, and against an enemy or enemies other than the ones the Heroes fight.  The banner and its link to the Dragon's fate and progress is then their only means of knowing whether to advance or retreat.

 

That's why it's an equation that is the sum of three parts.  The Horn to call them.  The living Dragon to lead them.  The banner to mark the Dragon's progress.

 

And, that's the way it always works.

[Majsju]

We have no idea how or if Callandor was used.  All we know was that it ended up in the Heart of the Stone.

 

Considering how easy it would be for a circle using Callandor to overpower a single male channeler, it does not take the sharpest knife in the drawer to figure that one out...And unlike the Horn, they knew what callandor could do.

 

No, Rand couldn't sit back and have a beer.  Unless he wants the Heroes to sit back and have a beer too.  They only advance when he advances.  They stop when he stops.  They retreat when he retreats.  They, and his banner move and fight in lockstep with the Dragon.

 

Ok, capture a trolloc, break its arms, and have Rand spar with it. He would constantly advance, and never be at risk. Piece of cake. Or perhaps it has to be Ishy as the opponent? I mean, it was Ishy at falme, and since you want everything else to be exactly the same, surely the opponent must count as well.

 

 

The Horn had called them.  the Dragon was right in front of them.  Still they were powerless to act without the banner.  In case you've forgotten, Rand's little dust-up with Ba'alzy in the sky was just Rand and Ba'alzy.  No Heroes.  No banner.  Those were both back on the ground fighting in and around Falme.  So, the banner wasn't required to proclaim him to the world as the Dragon.  The projection in the sky was enough for that.

 

The banner was for Rand to proclaim himself, the broadcast to announce him to the world.

 

 

 

And, that's the way it always works.

 

Nope.

[Bob T Dwarf]

But, he doesn't proclaim himself.  Not until after Ba'alzy is dead, dead, dead in Tear.

 

He's simply powerless to control what the very few who actually saw him in conjunction with both the Heroes and the banner conclude or infer.

[Kaznen]

I don't know about Rand being alive and there for the horn to work.  One of my LB theories is that Rand dies, and the rest of the world is disparing.  But Mat, on top of being choked up that his best friend is dead, won't go down without a fight.  Somebody, probally Verin, shows up with the horn.  Mat and Perrin, if he's still alive, rally everyone and whispers, "this is for you, Rand" and blows the horn bringing back the dead heroes that haven't been reborn. 

 

And leading this group will be Rand.

[Bob T Dwarf]

And, it could work that way.

 

Of course, if it does, that makes the failure to use the Horn before they had to abandon Paren Disen even more inexplicable.

[Majsju]

Apparently they had quite a reason to stash away the Horn at the Eye...

 

It was later recovered and sealed up with the Dragon Banner because along with the Foretellings that made up the Prophecies of the Dragon was one saying that it must be.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=183

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes, they needed to safeguard it in such a way that the Dragon Reborn could find it when needed.

 

Now, what part of any of that means they cannot use it themselves first?