Mat and the Effect of Firearms

[Rahlian]

So, in KoD Mat has started equipping his soldiers with grenades, and is working on the cannon. Does anyone think he will invent the musket/rifle in time for Tarmon Gai'don?

 

What kind of effectiveness will his firearms have on the rest of the world, particularly the Seanchan, who use channelers extenseively in battle?

 

What will Rand do when he find out about the firearms? (ie equip the Legion with them, or just ignore them)

 

How will other factions react to the knowledge of firearms?

 

What will the Forsaken think of Mat's innovations?

 

What does this mean for the future of channelers in battle?

 

Opinions are welcome, but lets try not to let this thread devolve into bickering please.

Thats all i can think of atm, but I'm sure to think of more later.

 

[Guest durram laddel cham]

guess he doesn't have time to equip the entire world, but some soldiers will probably be equiped with it.

 

just look at what firearms changed in our world. normally castles were a huge advantage, but with cannons they were nothing.

 

I guess when Rand will find out about firearms he'll definitly want to make as many as possible. the more trollocs dead the better.

 

I think the same thing as the use of OP in battle. people will be shocked by the destruction it causes.

 

the Forsaken will probably react as to all new things, they'll wonder why they hadn't invented it in the AoL. but I guess the'll learn to late(probably when thousands of trollocs will be blast into oblivion)

 

A combination of channelers and cannons will change warfare completly, but we don't know how much of the information about cannons will be saved after TG.

[Saidar]

I think only the Band will use the firearms.

 

Against the Seanchans?

*Does a radiovoice* Sniperteam Alpha take out that damane! I repeat! Sniperteam Alpha take out the damane! *Hears a shot*

[Majsju]

I really do not think there is enough time for Rand to learn about this new innovation, give all the right orders, get mass production started, and have armies equipped and trained in time for TG.

[aevogt]

I don't believe we'll see any personal firearms in AMoL.  

 

Cannon certainly.  But right now, Mat has his men using slings that throw an explosive charge wrapped with stones.  Very primitive, albeit effective.

 

To go from there to the personal firearm, even a rudimentary thing like a fused blunderbuss or a flintlock musket is a massive step and an even more massive undertaking.

 

You can get a bellfounder to crank out a cannon just about as fast as they make a bell.  That's all one piece.  Very easy to forge.  

 

A bellfounder cannot make a musket or a blunderbuss, nor even the parts for one.  A gun has to be made by a blacksmith, and a fairly skilled one at that it takes a while.  

The other issue is weight.  The first guns of the were not man portable.  They required a stand and bearers to carry all the parts

 

Now, a heavy crossbow on the other hand, Bashere already has several manufactories cranking those out like "a sow drops piglets".  A man with a heavy crossbow and one of the Band's handy-dandy crossbow cranks will feather a musketeer with about a dozen quarrels before he can reload for his second shot.

 

I've fired all mannr of guns and bows and me, I'll take a heavy crossbow any day of the week over a musket.

 

 

The technology just isn't there to mass produce personal firearms in the, what, couple of months remaining before TG.

 

Now, let's look ahead 10 years to when Mat and Tuon reclaim the Empire.  Those gun battle would have been epic.

 

 

 

[Guest leebarr]

With the cannons and firearms Mat will want to keep them close but when he had that bad dream in KOD he may not.

[Charlz Guybon]

It seems that Mat is well on his way to having relatively mobile artillery pieces in his arsenal, which by itself is a huge advancement. However there's no way he's gonna have arquebus by the last battle. I will note however that Matt already generals like he does.

 

The way he uses mixed pike and crossbow formations is very similar to to the pike and shot formations of 16th and 17th century Europe.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_and_shot

 

I think Mat is likely to use his mobile artillery in a way similar to Gustavus Adolphus, while using his cavalry to harass the enemy's movement with their bows and exploit openings & disorder via charges.

 

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

So, in KoD Mat has started equipping his soldiers with grenades, and is working on the cannon. Does anyone think he will invent the musket/rifle in time for Tarmon Gai'don?

 

The cannon, definately. The musket, possibly invented but I doubt there'll be time to equip very many men. The rifle, no way. The rifles a big step from the musket.

 

What kind of effectiveness will his firearms have on the rest of the world, particularly the Seanchan, who use channelers extenseively in battle?

 

I think they'll be devasting when used in the right time and place. But I don't think there'll be enough to revolutionize warfare by TG. And, to address anoter Q. at the same time -- The end of Channelers? No, if only for the range issue. Besides, a reasonably strong channeler has far more destructive capacity that an early firearm. Early firearms were inaccurate, difficult to move, prone to jamming/exploding and slow to reload.

 

What will Rand do when he find out about the firearms? (ie equip the Legion with them, or just ignore them)

 

I think he'll use them, but the numbers will be limited.

 

How will other factions react to the knowledge of firearms?

 

They won't have time to react before TG. Besides, I don't think firearms will tilt the balance. They'll just be an entertaining addition for the reader.

[Besolyn]

I don’t think we’ll see personal firearms in AMoL....We’re dealing with very limited time here. Definitely not enough time for inventing all the necessary parts or to equip a useful number of soldiers in time with such advanced mechanical firearms....but maybe Aludra will come up with a charge to mount on the tip of crossbow bolts, or maybe her “grenades” can be altered to fire from a crossbow. I just finished KoD, and it seemed an obvious thing how awkward the sling-arms for the grenades were, but how effective the grenades were, and how awesome the new quick firing crossbows are....

[42Bonzo88]

    Just remembering the battles with the cranks and how devastating those were to the Seanchan, it will definetly have a major effect against shadowspawn. The Seanchan generals were no fools, same as the Fades. Both know how to take out crossbowmen. Wait, until the first volley than strike before the second. Just as the Seanchan, the Trollocs and other shadowspawn are going to go down quickly and until the dark side FIGURE out what's happening. If Rand can even arm a third of his armies, it will change quite a bit of TG.

[bRANDan]

Very easy to forge.

 

You mean cast. Quite different.

 

Even ten mobile artillery units protected by channellers and infantry would be devastating. Say a battle lasts 2 hours, say reloading one takes 5 minutes, thats 240 unexpected explosions. If an explosion kills five and wounds 20, thats 6000 enemies you've neutralized with maybe 500 troops used to guard the artillery. Not to mention the fact that the artillery has a range of miles, you can engage the enemy without actually risking any troops, ie-Travel a few to positions in the mountains surrounding the battle area, Shayol Ghul, Tarwin's Gap or whatever, then your only risk is other channelers, use several male/female channeller circles to protect each one and you're set.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Borrowing from real life here -

 

Early cannon were notoriously unreliable.  Most would explode, killing their operators at some point.  They definitely would explode if overcharged.  Also, as recently as the American Civil War, range for artillery was under a mile if you expected it to have any real affect.

 

If you get the chance visit Gettysburg and look at where each side had its artillery sited.  Not much more than a quarter mile between the lines.  Maybe a half mile at the outside.

 

Even with Aludra's Dragons, combat is most likely to be close-ranged.  Cannoneers should expect to be overrun after firing only 1 round if it takes 5 minutes to reload.  UNLESS they have heavy ground support and caster support. 

 

From a practical standpoint, their major value may be to provide a focus for enemy attacks allowing Rand's channelers to concentrate their fire more effectively.