Open discussion with the Warders

[paetric]

Greetings all.  For those of you who don’t know me, I’m Paetric and I’m the Sword Captain of the Warders.  I’d like to open up a direct conversation regarding some of the issues the Guild and the band have had recently.

As you all know Corki is also a member of the Warders guild.  He is doing his best to state his opinions and those of the band when a issue arises.  I’m sure he relays back the discussion that take place but sometimes a lot of the important information and concerns get lost as individual points take time to get worked out.  By then other points are lost pages into the conversation.

 

The first issue that the Guild and band had since I became Sword Captain was with the Blademaster title.  I understand the bands Blademaster is based on one of your individual groups.  The Guilds program is for older members, though it is designed to be started at a early stage in our members time at the Guild.  It is a lot more in depth than what I am describing, but the details aren’t important.  The main issue as conveyed by Corki was that the band feels the Guild “stole” this idea.  As any older member of DM can tell you, and by older I mean more than 4 or 5 years, that the blademaster title was originally a Warder title.  We’ve never had issue with others using it.  The only issue is the continued attitude that we are using something the band originated.  This isn’t the least bit true. 

The Blademaster program could have been a great DM wide program, with all the interested orgs participating in it.  I’m sorry the band doesn’t feel this way and that the idea was scraped. 

 

The most recent issue has been with the Guilds ribbon program.  Horn can clear up where this idea originated which will end the accusations that we “stole” yet another idea of the bands.  Once more this idea could have evolved into a DM wide system, but with such resistance once again from the band it was scaled back.  If we could just work together on some of these then it would benefit Dm as a whole.

 

So what am I missing?  Why does the band  react this way?

 

 

Paetric

[North Star]

my two cents...im not directly involved with this however being corki's girlfriend i've heard just about all of it.

 

ill be honest here Paet when i say i think you are creating a potentially volatile situation with this discussion which will just inflame everything further.

 

being in the situation of onlooker...i have to say that the behaviour and reactions to these "issues" are so petty its beyond belief. issues have been fabricated because normally reasonable adults on both sides are acting like spoilt children. no one cares who had the idea first or who implimented it first. the fact of the matter is it doesnt matter. the warders intake is not affected by the band and vice versa.

 

so why isnt the structure of your organisation (for both sides) an issue for people who join them?

 

the band have a thing when people sign up where they state why they joined. i dont know of anyone who joined because they somehow knew that they could become a blademaster of the infantry. im sure that when  99% of people sign up they dont even know we have 3 regiments. so why do they join? THE BOOKS. people join the warders because they want to be a warder. people want to join the band generally because they are a mat fan. therefore, nobody outsides these orgs cares about the internal structure or what is called what.

 

the very reason why people come to dm and join orgs makes these "issues" petty and pathetic and shows that they are not issues at all. it doesnt matter if a warder is called a bladesmaster and so is an infantryman...its still a mark of respect. the only thing arguing constantly about it does is tear apart any relations which may occur between the band and the warders and shames both orgs to the other members of DM. and i think that should not be allowed to happen because some idiots decide that they are arrogant enough to assume that they have a right to a word and therefore no one else can use it.

 

in summary: all this discussion will do is inflame things.

            there are no issues - just arrogant idiots wanting to create drama at the expense of their organisations reputations within dm

            these so called "issues" do not in any way affect member intake or the status of the members

 

so to my mind, its time everyone started to think a bit, consider what really matters, and stop making issues out of nothing. the alternative doesnt really bear thinking about.

 

please note, this idiocy applies to both sides and this should not be a blame contest as that accomplishes nothing.

[North Star]

just add....in answer to the question "why does the band react in this way?" first point, its not the band as a whole - just certain members. and the reason they react is because they can, they are arrogant and they dont think before they speak and they like to make issues out of nothing. by no means does this apply to the entire band.

 

as for DM wide programs...people join DM for the books. keep things to the books for the sake of new members? otherwise the orgs become obsolete.

[paetric]

I don't think it will inflame anything at all.  I haven't mentioned this thread to anyone in the guild and I don't look for any flaming from any of the Warders.  That is what a discusion is about.

 

Your points are exactly inline with the guilds.  We don't care who is using what terms and we have propsed to expand the ideas DM b/c they have been popular.  What I'm trying to figure out is why the band is at issue with the Blademaster program and now the ribbons.  If you can see the merit of these programs then why is the guild being question about them at every turn?

 

The only way to get on the same page is for both of us to be reading the same book.  It doesn't seem like we have been based on what you posted. If the rest of the band feels this way then what is the problem?

 

 

[The winds of Time]

Ok, im going to step in right now.

 

i may be new to both the warders and the band but really, this must stop!

 

here is my understanding of the situation:

 

1. the band feels cheated because the warders are using the blademaster system.

 

2. the warders argue that they had the blade master system first.

 

3. the band feels cheated because the warders are using the ribbon system.

 

4. the warders feel cheated because they dont understand why the band feels insulted.

 

That my friends is what i can gather from these 2 posts alone! i suggest that corki and paetric get thier hind ends in here right now! im not speaking as a band member or a warder, but i will speak as a mediator between the two parties, since i have experience with both.

 

Now paetric and corki sign in!

 

everyone else who wants to participate post who your representing and stay out of the way for now

[The winds of Time]

Ok, now that i have everyone's attention.

 

I am declaring this a peace summit between the band and the warders.

 

here is how it works:

 

1. the two included parties will present themselves here

 

2. there will be no flaming, name calling, insults, or anyother inapproprate actions.

 

3. each party will be able to make a statement.

 

Ok people?

[The winds of Time]

here is the agenda:

 

1. signing in of the included parties: warders represenitive:..... Band of the Red Hand representive:

 

2. opening statements

 

3. questioning by the parties.

 

4. questioning by the mediator

 

5. answering by the parties/witnesses and data presentation.*

 

6. open floor to those who wish to make a statement

 

7. coming to terms

 

8. adjournment

[paetric]

A peace summit would require two parties to be at war. Neither are. ;)

 

Someone will have to speak for Corki snce he said he had shotty internet.

[The winds of Time]

ah but paetric, may i point out that if this situation continues this way, it could indeed result in a open conflict. so consider it a "preventive peace summit"

 

however i do take note that someone needs to speak for the band. Who will represent the band? the higher rank will be granted this if they so choose, untill the return of corki to take charge.

[paetric]

That isn't necessary.  I'm not going to let this get turned into some sort of spectacle.  The issues are already laid out.

[The winds of Time]

please just hear me out. i have been a junior mediator for my school and let me tell ya, if we leave it like this it cannot end good. if you feel that it is a specticle we can see about taking this somewhere more private. a neutral ground if  you will. but trust me, if i didnt think it was nessasary i wouldnt suggest it.

 

I aplogize for contradicting you paetric, but i feel that this needs to be taken care of.

[paetric]

May I ask why both of the post from parties other than myself have stated this very well may result in a spam fest?  I've said in several posts that it isn't on my part.  I am speaking for the warders.  No one else is.  

[The winds of Time]

would you like to invite others? if you feel that only the representives should talk, just say so. I can provide a neutral ground where i can PM the web address to the representives. would that suit it better?

[paetric]

Neutral ground ins't necessary and thats the last I have to comment regarding your idea.

[el Nynaeve]

Then what exactly are you after Paet? I'm honestly confused here, you say you don't want a spectacle, but you've posted this on the public boards.

 

Clearly someone on one or both sides has an issue that needs dealing with.

[Auld Manriva]

Had I known we were having a war I woulda baked a cake  :-\ ...  Let's ease up on the Kofi Anon channeling shall we? Until he is needed? I have his number if we should have need of his skills. In a pinch I'm sure I could get Rev. Jackson to sub for him. Maybe even Jimmy Carter ;D

 

I for one don't have an issue with your BM thing (as I'm not Infantry) and from what I had heard that had been squared away long ago. Maybe my grapevine connection was shoddy. Though, if like any other idea appropriated by DM to be used site wide, ours would be required to be hellacious different in its execution THEN I would raise Cain...... and Abel too likely. Our people put hour upon hour of time and effort in its doing and I have yet to see anything at DM that doesnt appear to be the result of 40 cooks on one bleedin cake.

 

The ONLY issue I have with the ribbons and only since I saw your sig Paetric is that you have apparently used a Band of the Red Hand Banner as a campaign ribbon... Any student of military history will tell you that is positively gauche and insinuates that your folks captured a Banner of your opponent and now proudly wear it as an indicator of a victory...... In that case (the Warder/Wolfie Invasion of 07) you definitely can make no such claim. That is my only issue with the ribbons you bear. All military units have ribbons or shiny bits so I don't see the problem, other than ours look better  ;) ;D

 

 

[paetric]

Dscussions need not be spectacles.

[The winds of Time]

everyone, cease this right now. this is now getting out of hand!

 

very well paetric, i will abidicate. however i must point out that el nyn is correct. You have posted on the bands public boards. It was my interpretation that you wanted to talk. if you feel that that is no longer nessasary then i suggest to the forum mod that this thread be locked, and that the issue WILL NOT be brought up again. that is my interpretation of what you are suggesting.

 

if you wish to clarify PM me.

[paetric]

Thats a point that wasn't conveyed Auld regarding the banner.  That ribbon is for participation in a raid, and in keeping with the idea of military ribbons, individual ribbons are given out for service during a war.  So we use that idea for raid ribbons.  Does the knowledge of what the ribbons mean change the sentiment regarding them?  That is something to be discussed.

 

 

I to thought the Blademaster issue was past but Corki mentioned it as still being a sore point for the band when this was being discussed. That is why I mention it here.  

[Auld Manriva]

The Mods are on it lad.. Take a rolaids... Paetric has only surprised us with this post nothing more. This is a tempest in a tea kettle compared to some of the past "discussions" and the gwonups is here Northie!! Never fear my dear ;D Good to see you by the way :)

 

Paetric you have it correct. Campaign Ribbons are given out for just about anything these days of everyman a hero. I think the US Army has one for participating in manuouvers if the weather is bad as a matter of fact :D

 

What I have issue with is the Red Hand Banner to signify your campaign "invasion" , which was fun by the way. For example, in Napoleonic Wars both sides took great pains to capture French "Eagles" and Allied Regimental Colors and medals or patches were given to the personnel of units involved to indicate their participation in the capture. The Red Hand on White is a BotRH banner and as such implies capture of same. For sure have a campaing ribbon just not one with a BotRH ensign.

[Taymist]

I wasn't going to post here right off as I wanted to allow Banders the right to step in and state their views first if they so wished.

 

I'm in charge while Corki's away. Thanks Winds but we don't require mediators, each Org has its own staff to deal with this (that would be myself in Brid for the Band as Corki is LOA) and Paet only asked for input not an argument.

 

Corki already contacted me to let me know about the thread, about the fact there was no permission given to post it and giving authority to lock it should it degenerate. I see certain people have made a good start on insult throwing already.  ::)

 

I have no idea what you see as needing discussed Paetric, I'm under the impression from Corki that he'd already relayed the views of those Banders who'd been concerned to the Guild. As far as the Infantry Regiment (those actually effected by the Blademaster issue - and yes, of which I am one) were concerned, it was a dead issue. The Guild went ahead with their BM programme and as it was so completely unrelated to being a Blademaster (in our opinion  :) ) and nothing like the Infantry's programme, they were no longer overly concerned about it. It died months ago from our point of view.

 

The ribbons issue hadn't even been discussed by the whole Band, in fact most Banders were probably completely unaware of it, precisely because Corki didn't wish to cause another argument. Instead he brought it to his Senior Staff for discussion and we agreed it wasn't worth making a fuss over, that ribbons are a military thing which are openly available to anyone since no doubt the Guild, like the Band, has several military members who use that system.

 

Who came up with what first and when is completely irrelevant at this point in time and none of the airing of opinions or concerns can remotely be classed as arrogant or be about people wishing to cause trouble. It is however about people who have put a lot of hard work into their systems and who care enough to want to safeguard that. The Guild understandably is trying to do the same with their systems.

 

As far as the ribbons are concerned, the only issue (not problem) that was mentioned to Corki was that of the Red Hand being used on one of the Guild ribbons. I see Riva has mentioned it too. It was felt to be misleading given that it is (Band member or not) recognised widely as a symbol specifically of this Org and its membership. As it was awarded for an invasion against the Band, it seems somewhat inappropriate (militarily it could be seen as having taken a Band banner which did not happen). I will stress though, that it was a concern NOT a complaint nor a major problem to be fallen out over.

 

As our Org Leader, naturally we funnel all of our concerns through Corki and in the same vein, he obviously puts the welfare of his Org ahead of any other commitments. That shouldn't be taken as trying to spoil what you want to do or as us trying to create problems but rather as keeping a channel of communication open.

 

Any resentment stems from the way in which these things seem to come about and the fact that every time the Band does something, it seems the Warders are right on our heels doing the same thing. Possibly unavoidable but you must keep in mind that not all of us have been here for 4 or 5 plus years and this is why it looks bad. It may have been done in the past but it hadn't been done recently and wasn't current when we introduced it giving us a unique selling point.

 

I've already asked the Infantry to post if they wish but to keep it civilised and put their points over fairly to you Paet. I'm quite happy to let the discussion continue so you can hear their thoughts but if there is any more mud slinging (from anyone!!), I'll be locking this thread.

[The winds of Time]

thank you taymist for taking hold of the situation.

 

on that note i will abidicate as mediator seeing that it is unessasary. I sincerely apologize to paetric for my hasty judgement and obvious over-reaction to the situation.

[paetric]

Any resentment stems from the way in which these things seem to come about and the fact that every time the Band does something, it seems the Warders are right on our heels doing the same thing. Possibly unavoidable but you must keep in mind that not all of us have been here for 4 or 5 plus years and this is why it looks bad. It may have been done in the past but it hadn't been done recently and wasn't current when we introduced it giving us a unique selling point.

 

This is a main part of what concerns me.  I don't care if others use our ideas.  Naturally people will assume my attitude is based on the fact that I feel that way b/c I didn't create the idea. So dropping that statement we can move on to the bands resentment.

 

How do we work through the resentment without it reflecting North Stars orginal post?  It needs to be worked out or that resentmen will remain.  I for one would like to work out the misunderstandings that result in the resentment.

 

How do we best do this?

[paetric]

So I'm off for the day and won't be back to reply for about 14 hours.

[The winds of Time]

I think the best way to deal with such is to let it lie then. Paetric, you have provided the band with insight to accordance with some of the warders actions. taymist has provided the senior officers of the band's view on the situation.

 

i beleive that it's time for both of the seinor officers commitee's of both warder's and of the band to take charge individualy of their respective orders. the comitees can explain to their own orgs alot better than if we have a open discussion over such a topic.

 

to put it simply, each running body of the orgs involved need to tell their orgs the current situation and have their respective orgs discuss it among themselves. have a the seniors answer questions to the situation, and leave it as such.