Why so much build-up for the forsaken? Dissapointing...

[BrainFireBob]

Well, Bob, aevogt understands my point.

 

There is zero evidence they did not know about transmigration, because no quote exists to that effect.

 

They don't favor dying, and considering the nature of transmigration, that's a fair point.

 

The only quote from a Forsaken considering other Forsaken dead-dead only refers to those Forsaken quite probably (in one case) and incontestably (in the other) outside of transmigration (turns out, Lanfear may not have been, but being in another dimension and/or probably stilled before it was known that was Healable could lead one to the conclusion).

[Bob T Dwarf]

By the Prologue to tFoH, Aginor and Balthamel have been dead for two whole books.  The trek through the mirror worlds alone consumed four months of real time.  So, IF they knew about transmigration, Lanfear would have known that those two for certain were well on their ways back to health, and she wouldn't have said, "Now four are dead."

[BrainFireBob]

Only if their existence was revealed.

 

They know the DO can transmigrate. They know he normally doesn't choose to, even if he can.

 

Their lack of an appearance quite easily stands as testament to their death- even if they do come back later, they still died. Lanfear's statement was given, in context, to illustrate their vulnerability and Rand's dangerous nature. Four did die confronting him.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes, but she didn't say, "Four died confronting him."

 

She said, "Now, four are dead."

 

"Are" present tense.

 

How could any of them "Know" the DO could transmigrate when he'd never done it before?

[BrainFireBob]

Because he told them? We've no evidence that the first time they're told of it is when it's mentioned to Demandred.

[Bob T Dwarf]

When did he tell them?  Why would he tell them?

 

All the evidence we have says that the DO never transmigrated anybody during the WoP.  In fact he killed at least a dozen of his "Chosen" simply because he became suspicious of them.  If anybody was so incapable as to die, they obviously were too incapale to be worthy of being a "Chosen" after all.

 

That was then, and this is now.  Now, the DO has only 13 "Chosen" and no real prospect for securing more.  Things have to be different than they were before.

 

The DO may be alien, but he seems to be intelligent enough to know that if his "Chosen" think they've got a Get out of Jail Free card, they're going to take chances that they shouldn't.  Don't forget, transmigration isn't instantaneous.  It takes considerable time for the soul and body to "adjust" to each other.  Time that said "Chosen" isn't able to devote to the task of actually doing anything to free the DO.  Time that plans need to be guided ( or forced ) to the proper outcome ( from the Dark POV, anyway ).

 

Transmigration isn't something the DO really wants to do, it's just something that it needs to do right now.  And, it's not going to let its willing accomplices get needlessly complacent or careless by letting them know that it needs to keep them around.  It's probably hoping that they all think it's being generous once the recycled versions begin appearing.

[BrainFireBob]

Well, Bob, he promised them immortality.

 

If he didn't have any details to offer, he wouldn't be believable.

 

"I will make you immortal. If you are killed, I can bring you back. Such is my power, for I am Lord of the Grave."

[Bob T Dwarf]

OK.  So, why should that statement be believable when some of their number were obviously dying and not being recycled?  Where is the "limits" part that they're all also supposed to know about?

[Guest Dreadlord]

And also, Elan Morin said to Lews Therin, in EotW prologue, that Ilyena could be brought back. At first it was "Yeah, who believes Ishamael?" but later on when we see the Forsaken reincarnated, it is obvious he was telling the truth. They knew, guys.

 

The grave is no bar to my call, and all that.

[Bob T Dwarf]

"The grave is no bar to my call", is a whole different thing.

 

I'd forgotten how Ishy tried to bribe LTT with making Ilyena live again. 

 

I'm not sure that transmigration qualifies as "living again."  Are you really the same person if you are in a different body?  Probably too deep a philosophical and psychological question for us to answer.

 

But, even if Ishy really knew, or was just accidentally lying-on-the-square, it says nothing about what any of the others knew.  Those thirteen aren't really good about sharing information.

 

Based on how things have played out, you can make a solid case that Ishy really did know.  Based on their own subsequent words and actions, I don't think you can safely extend that knowledge to the other twelve.

 

 

 

[havoc110]

Back to the Original Post, and the original thread topic.  This is also the biggest disappointment in the story so far for me.

 

I've argued with Bob before on this one, with his "exaggeration over time" explanation.  And I don't even buy Robert Jordan's explanation of "well you see, the Dark One really is winning, and his minions really are close to destroying everything."

 

It has never really felt that way to me, and the lack of a credible evil side has only grown from book to book.

 

Epic stories are meant to have epic struggles.  Don't give me this baloney about "that's how it really is, the bad guys never really live up to their billing." 

 

Did you feel that way about Darth Vader (OK, before his "Annie" days became public)?  Did you feel that way about Sauron?  The answer is a resounding "NO!"  And if it isn't "NO", they why would you still be reading epic fantasy?

 

With one book remaining, there's not really much time for dark to stage a rally.  And I don't think that was ever really in the works anyway.  RJ was content with the abilities and accomplishments of his dark side, so why shouldn't we be? 

 

It has been building up to what?   A "Scooby Doo-like" ending where they pull off the rubber masks of the remaining Forsaken.  And someone says:  "We would have gotten away with it, if it wasn't for those pesky kids and their shaggy brown mare!"  I hope that I am proven wrong.

 

The rest of the story is of course, great.  The sub-plots, the characters, the detail, it's all there.  But too much has been added at the expense of the central conflict, the Good Guys vs. the Bad Guys.  I don't think I'm alone in that I am more interested in Mat's rescue of Moiraine, the identity of Asmo's killer, the resolution of the Aes Sedai civil war, and what happens to Bela, than I am in the Last Battle itself.

 

Certainly RJ was a student of history.  If you could make a fantasy version of the American Civil War, might it resemble WoT?  Certainly there were great battles, and they had a dramatic outcome on the future history of our world.  But the battle's outcomes were more often than not decided by blind luck or ineptitude rather than by courage or valor.  Then you have Lincoln and Davis at the center, both larger than life. 

 

Could this be something like the model that RJ might have been writing to?  You take 3 average teenagers and stick them in a heroic struggle and what do you get?: 3 average teenagers.  You then find out that the Forsaken was just a catchy AoL term for the Dark One's 13 closest stooges (more like the Bob T Dwarf's explanation).  Kind of like "United States Cabinet", but I digress.

 

So what you are left with is something like "non-epic" epic fantasy.  If that's the case, then maybe Bob's been right all along.  But is this the story that the majority of us wanted WoT to be?  Perhaps not...

[Davian93]

  If you could make a fantasy version of the American Civil War, might it resemble WoT?  Certainly there were great battles, and they had a dramatic outcome on the future history of our world.  But the battle's outcomes were more often than not decided by blind luck or ineptitude rather than by courage or valor.

 

Your ignorance of the American Civil War and the strategies used during the many battles is appalling.  Very rarely did "blind luck" or "inepitude" decide a battle's outcome.  The higher command on both sides of the conflict was extensively trained in strategy and did excellent jobs in using said tactics to kill each other.

[Myndrunner]

I've argued with Bob before on this one, with his "exaggeration over time" explanation.  And I don't even buy Robert Jordan's explanation of "well you see, the Dark One really is winning, and his minions really are close to destroying everything."

 

In the back of my mind, I always suspected that the DO was playing everyone, including Rand.  I mean, he tosses promises of being Nablis more than a Used Car Salesman.  (and I used to sell used cars!)  What if all of the Forsaken are being strung along, but his real prize, all the way from the bloody beginning, was Rand and LTT?  Or maybe just LTT?  He wants the Lord of Chaos to rule so that all he has to do is rule the Dragon.  It's corporate politics.  Why do all the work when you can have the guy under you do it for you and then take credit for it.  I have four theories that are pretty out there, but are things to consider.

 

1) The Dr. Evil theory: EVERYTHING has been according to the DO's plan.  This includes Moiraine and Siuan looking for Rand in New Spring.  Pretty convenient for everyone who knew about the Dragon Reborn but those two getting whacked.  Evil Corporate Politics 101: Pit your employees against each other to inspire competition, and therefore increase productivity.    Tell the Black Ajah they must find Rand and kill him.....then tell the folks that think you are a good guy to protect him.  You cannot deny that Rand has grown into quite a powerful being, and it has all been because he had to.  The hardest steel is closest to the flame.  At TG, Rand will discover something he did not see coming....and it will tempt him to go to the dark side to save his friends.  Balzamon had the right idea.  If he got Rand to obey him, then the DO would look to Balzy as his Nablis.  "No, Mister Rand.....I expect you to die!"

 

2) The Mule Theory: DO is after Lews Therin not Rand.  The whole time, Rand has been a carrier for the DO's true prize.  The DO is luring RAND to SHayol Ghul to take LTT's essence and therefore finally score some win. Yeah, I know its way out there but I needed to say it.

 

3) The Balance issue: the DO is no fool.  He knows that the stronger he gets, the stronger the pattern will spit out Taveren to counter anything he does. If the pattern is meant to balance Light and Shadow, then weak Forsaken should indicate how strong the DO has become. 

 

4) The DO is already free....sorta: What if Shaidar Haran IS the DO? Think about it, this Uber Shade has been running around acting like the DO's gopher, hence the Hand of the Dark One name.  What if he is the physical essence of the DO, just growing in power like Imotep the Mummy, feeding off these bloody Forsaken and they don't even know it.  We don't even hear about this guy until he shows up after some seals had been broken and we have some dead Forsaken.  And, if all the 13 Forsaken are free....would he not be free too? 

 

Ok, those are my FRINGE THEORIES on the whole Forsaken are a bunch of silly-nannies deal.  I think RJ knew what he was doing and where he was going the whole time, unlike the writers from Lost.  For RJ to make a comment that the DO is winning, to me it suggest that we've been following a Darkfriend this whole time.....and even he doesn't know it yet. 

[RAND AL THOR]

I cant believe how off-the-point this discussion has become.

 

PEOPLE PLEASE STICK TO THE ORIGINAL TOPIC.

 

PS: When I was reading the first 3 books, I was awed by the descriptions of the forsaken given by others. I was utterly shocked when two of them turned up at the Eye. I was later disappointed by their lack of organization and lack of strength (i imagined them to be all but invincible). Others may have experienced this differently. This is my idea. Please reply to THIS message.

[Myndrunner]

*bows*  I humbly beg forgiveness from the true Dragon Reborn!  *grins*

 

Although, if you read my post, I am trying to explain the signifigance of their apparent weakness. The DO no longer needs them because he has his eyes on Rand. 

[RAND AL THOR]

BY THE AUTHORITY OF THE DRAGON SCEPTER I NAME MYNDRUNNER THE NEA'BLIS OF THE LIGHT! ALL HAIL MYNRUNNER ! (BUT ALL HAIL ME FIRST!) ;D

 

 

Quote:

The Dr. Evil theory: EVERYTHING has been according to the DO's plan.  This includes Moiraine and Siuan looking for Rand in New Spring.

Unquote

 

Seems very unlikely. Moiraine and the myrdraal found Rand at more or less the same time. Why do that? I dont think the DO has such supreme control over the actions of the forces of the light. If the DO is responsible for that...then we might as well name him the weaver of the Pattern since he has so much influence. His influence cannot be so great amongst his enemies (or so I hope).

 

[Myndrunner]

*Mynd has a brief Mazrim Taim moment, but then calms himself.*

 

Dunno....I think we may have the old "JOIN ME and together we can rule the galaxy" moments coming up.  Should be a lot of fun. 

[Asmo]

I cant believe how off-the-point this discussion has become.

 

PEOPLE PLEASE STICK TO THE ORIGINAL TOPIC.

 

PS: When I was reading the first 3 books, I was awed by the descriptions of the forsaken given by others. I was utterly shocked when two of them turned up at the Eye. I was later disappointed by their lack of organization and lack of strength (i imagined them to be all but invincible). Others may have experienced this differently. This is my idea. Please reply to THIS message.

 

Well, RJ's world has been far more realistic than most others (although in the first book it was kind of silly, like how LotR started off). I always thought the Forsaken not to be as godly as had been preached, if the story was to last that much. By the end of the third book, I was certain. But I wouldn't say they are... disappointingly pathetic.

 

-Ishamael, the strongest, was probably quite stronger than Rand, and still is.

-Aginor was second only to Ishamael.

-Moghedien is as strong as Nynaeve, the strongest female channeler in the side of the Light until Alivia appeared.

-Lanfear was also as strong or stronger than Rand was, although Rand is probably stronger now. She was presumably stronger than Alivia prior to Lanfear's ressurection.

-Rahvin was considered a threat by Rand even though he had an angreal. The statement was not revoked once Rand sensed Rahvin's strength - indeed, Rahvin nearly killed Rand.

-If Nynaeve and Cadsuane didn't have their ter'angreal, even if they expected the ambush, Nynaeve calculated that Rand, themselves, Logain and three others would be defeated by Semirhage and her escort. And Nynaeve was probably stronger than all the women there except Semirhage, and Rand stronger than her.

 

While we don't have such evidence of the others' strength, I can easily place Mesaana, who is casually strolling around in the White Tower, the very heart of the Light, fairly above average, and Graendal did manage to Compel Cyndane and Moghedien with the aid of her angreal. Asmodean was stated to be the weakest, and he still rivalled Rand in strength quite equally, each wielding half of the Choeden Kal. True, Rand had not hit his full power yet, but he was close enough. There's not much to go on about the others, but they all seem to be around Rand's strength. That's not very bad. IMO, it's quite neatly done.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Graendal did manage to Compel Cyndane and Moghedien with the aid of her angreal

UNQUOTE

 

When?

[Asmo]

When?

 

The Path of Daggers, Chapter 12

 

Summary from encyclopedia-wot (too bored to open the book, much less actually copy the text here):

 

They tell her that Moridin is Nae'blis and she is now to serve him, too. Graendal does not believe them, telling them to peddle their story to Demandred or Semirhage. Moghedien channels out the lights. In defense, Graendal channels a single light creating shadows and traps Moghedien and Cyndane with Compulsion. Suddenly she is cut off from the True Source and a giant Myrddraal steps out of the shadows. Aginor thought Fades were slightly out of phase with time and reality. He says he is Shaidar Haran and that when he speaks she is to hear the voice of the Great Lord. She agrees to obey him, his first order being to visit Moridin, but does not tell him about the letter she just sent.

[Myndrunner]

Rand IS Nablis!

[RAND AL THOR]

Rand IS Nablis!

 

oh well then....*scratches head*.....Myndrunner can be second-in command, I guess. Or better still, He could replace Asmo and be 'gleeman to the Dragon Reborn.' ;)

[Guest Dreadlord]

There is something that bothers me about the Forsaken. It is said that Asmodean is the weakest. Fine. Yet every one of the Forsaken has been "almost as strong as Rand." Including Asmodean.

 

Now I can believe that Rahvin and Sammael were almost as strong as Rand, but not Asmodean. No way. Yet every time it describes their strength as nearly equalling Rands. Seems a bit odd to me.

 

It reminds me of another set of books I read, a set called the Belgariad by David Eddings. Every single woman you get introduced to is "extraoadinarily beautiful." It made me wonder how you define "extraodinarily beautiful" when you use those words for every woman you see. It seems like that with the Forsaken power levels. They are all "perhaps as strong as Rand" but not exactly the same. I wish there was something more to define between them

[pricecheck]

yes i kinda agree wid u wd the forsaken anticlimax cept as stated above, there r a bunch of reasons why they were beatn so easily.and i tink its kinda like the way people all admire/fear A.S even tho they r not always so grand.I think caus the A.S dnt realy no much of the Forsaken so asume them far surperior to themselves

[Guest Dreadlord]

Dont get me wrong on what I said before-I think the Forsaken buildups are exactly how they should be-its just when you see them through Rands eyes they are always the same strangth as him yet Asmodean is weaker than the others, but still almost as strong as Rand.

 

Personally I think the Forsaken overall are all great characters, and have been used by RJ very well. All the buildups were great and WELL DESERVED. Although, like I said earlier and in other threads, Demandreds only major appearance-ie the Cleansing-left me a bit dissapointed, he was a coward. Some people said in his defence that he isnt a warrior, and I laugh at that comment. HE IS A GENERAL!