Why so much build-up for the forsaken? Dissapointing...

[aevogt]

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/

 

this is one of the best reference websites related to WoT.

 

It's...well, an Encyclopedia

 

Also, Maj tacked a thread with a lot of other good sites on the first page of the General discussion.

 

One of the reason I post on this thread is that there are some pretty damn smart people who post here as well. 

 

Personally, I don't consider any of my nutbar theories viable unless they goes at least couple pages without having any major holes poked in them.

 

 

[marcbreault]

This is a pattern we see in the series about a number of things.  Note how Aes Sedai change from seemingly all powerful regal figures to ordinary women, and so on.  The fact is, the Two Rivers people start off as ordinary people and they get thrown into a web which calls upon them to take on beings that have taken on mythic proportions over the years.  Part of being able to do this psychologically is a demythologization of sorts and I think Jordan did this very well, and on purpose.  These ordinary Two Rivers folks need to realize or believe they have a chance, otherwise, they would simply run and hide.

 

Compare this to Tad Williams series (was it Memory, Sorry and thorn) or whatever it was called.  In this series, the main characters spend most of their time like flies, having no real control over anything and then in the very end somehow winning through.  I find WoT much better and this is one important reason.

 

In Tolkien too, although I like Lord of the Rings, the Hobbits are basically tolerated by the higher class characters and their attitude toward them, save Aragorn's really, is pretty patronizing even in the end.  Perhaps the class structure of England comes through loud and clear in that series.  With WoT, though, class and stature generally go out the window and are replaced by courage, brains, and common sense.  Even Elayne allows some class structure to disappear despite being a queen.

[Snowy Dawn]

``Also, Snowy Dawn, yes Sherman was good, if unimaginative.''

 

Hm.... Time for you to read what Basil H. Liddell Hart had to say about Sherman in his book <i>Strategy</i>. As I said, I think Hart may be gilding the lily, but all the same, there has got to be something to what he says. Coming South to Atlanta, and having the stronger forces, he consistently used the threat to turn Johnson's flank, first to one side then to the other, and relied on his soldiers' ability to entrench quickly to prevent Johnson from counterattacking. A similar move repeated many times, so I suppose that counts as lack of imagination?!

 

But as Hart points out, he got all the way from Savannah to the Virginia border (something like 500 miles, IIRC), over terrain easily defended, in Winter and early Spring, mostly without having to fight any battles at all. He outnumbered the troops available to his opponents, but he also consistently out-maneuvered them.

 

Perhaps the point is this, what Sherman developed, in the course of the war, was a strategic flair, and he may not have had Lee's tactical imagination. [but he who ordered Pickett's charge had some limits there as well, I warrant you.] And, in the end, it was strategy that defeated the South, as well as the blockade by sea, and the greater resources of the North. And Grant, when he had to use it, had a strategic flair too, look at the Vicksburg campaign that he and Sherman put together. The surrender of Vicksburg, which came at the same time as Gettysburg was the beginning of the end for the South, and more important than the victory at Gettysburg. Lee could win all the battles in Northern Virginia he liked, but with the Union carving the Confederacy up into pieces, and forcing it back onto its own resources with the blockade, those victories earlier on meant nothing (so long as the Union stayed the course).

 

To bring this back to the WoT, Mat has both a tactical flair and a strategic flair. His campaign in Northern Altara, for example, is a success both ways. He both designs successful battle plans, but also knits them together into a larger plan to secure the opening of the Molvaine gap. Rodel Ituralde has both also as we can see in his campaign against the Seanchan, but not to the same extent, of course. We know the others (Bryne, Jagad, Niall) by reputation, but IIRC, aren't given as much about their skills. For example, Gareth Bryne has a plan to take Tar Valon, moving troops in the city via gateways, but we are not given the details.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

If we look at it, the odds were stacked so far in favor of the light it's surprising any of the Chosen survived at all.

UNQUOTE

 

While this is true, this is simply a case of the Light side having being prepared for the worst. VERY prepared. Rand knew the Forsaken would come-he knew every channeller inside 1000 miles would sense what was happening and knew he couldn't afford to take any chances. Six or seven Forsaken against all of Rands superchannellers, who were aided by many "minor" channellers and armed to the teeth with a massive array of angreals, the Forsaken were bound to be defeated. I dont feel dissapointed by the fact that the Forsaken were beaten-it shows how far the Light has come, they CAN fight back-my only dissapointment is with Demandred.

[marcbreault]

the battle at the end of book 9 highlights a weakness with the dark.  They don't trust one another to organize themselves to work together.  In that battle everyone acted on their own whereas Rand and his followers acted together.  That does provide a big advantage to the light.

[aevogt]

QUOTE

If we look at it, the odds were stacked so far in favor of the light it's surprising any of the Chosen survived at all.

UNQUOTE

 

While this is true, this is simply a case of the Light side having being prepared for the worst. VERY prepared. Rand knew the Forsaken would come-he knew every channeller inside 1000 miles would sense what was happening and knew he couldn't afford to take any chances. Six or seven Forsaken against all of Rands superchannellers, who were aided by many "minor" channellers and armed to the teeth with a massive array of angreals, the Forsaken were bound to be defeated. I dont feel dissapointed by the fact that the Forsaken were beaten-it shows how far the Light has come, they CAN fight back-my only dissapointment is with Demandred.

 

Perfectly stated DL.  I would have liked a little more action of out Demandred as well.  Looks like Demandred really was #2. 

 

I love reading the cleansing scene.  It's a shame Rand didn't get the bright idea to start suckering the Chosen in earlier.

 

"Hey, Hey you guys, look what I'm doing.  The Dark One is gonna be pretty pissed.  You better come and stop me" 

 

Lead them in and they come face to face with a circle comprised of Alivia with Nyneaeve's little toys, Narsihma with Callandor and half a dozen of the women.  The rest could form small pairs to keep the Chosen distracted long enought for the mega circle to zero in on them and burn them to ash where they stood.

 

That circle wouldn't take the top 50 feet of a hillside, it'd take the entire hill and bury whoever is on it, underneath it, 10 miles away. 

 

The old Soldier of Fortune Motto

 

"Long life through superior firepower"

[Guest Dreadlord]

Rand didn't deliberately draw their attention, he just knew that what he was going to do WOULD get their attention, and took the necessary measures to protect himself and his followers.

 

I do wish Rand would start doing that though-I wish he would start applying the Game of Houses to the Forsaken as well as the semi-important nobles.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

Unless, because he was sealed so close to the surface, he was aware of events taking place in the world, just as he was susceptible to the ravages of time.

 

bingo!

[Snowy Dawn]

``While this is true, this is simply a case of the Light side having being prepared for the worst. VERY prepared. Rand knew the Forsaken would come-he knew every channeller inside 1000 miles would sense what was happening and knew he couldn't afford to take any chances.''

 

At the risk of bringing in the fractious Cadsuane discussion to this one, it is worth noting that it was Cadsuane who brought along Merise, Narishma, <i>et al</i>, and it was she who organized the defense of Rand and Nynaeve whilst they were fully engaged in the cleansing.

[BrainFireBob]

Asmo, obviously knows nothing about transmigration at the point when he is killed, because he's thinking about how pleasant it will be to see each of the others die.  If he had any idea that they'd just be recycled, he wouldn't be feeling satisfied about that.

 

False. Asmo- all the Forsaken- know there are ways to make death "permanent."

 

Rand had just used one against Rahvin, which Asmo was smugly reflecting on when he had that thought.

 

Mind, you *might* be right, but the logic doesn't *necessarily* follow.

 

I haven't read the third page yet, but to chime in-

 

People are also forgetting that the Forsaken are out of their Age. They do not have pre-existing powerbases, connections, state secrets, or followers. Rahvin, Moghedian, and Balthamel do not have established networks of agents running around doing their will. Rahvin, at the time he dies, has the *seed* of such an organization. Graendal does not have sleeper agents everywhere- only perhaps in Arad Domon. Semirhage has not "set up shop," so to speak. Demandred, Sammael, and Be'lal have not showcased their talents because the war isn't overt yet- I find many WoT fans don't realize that it's only Rand and those in his circle who *know* the Forsaken are free. Because they are our POVs, we assume the knowledge common. It is not. Even in the WT it is not noted or discussed.

 

RJ made the comment about Aginor "Pity the poor chip designer dropped into the 18th century, who lacks the tools to make the tools to make the tools . . ." If there was a state-of-the-Legends-art lab available, Aginor would have started cranking out more- and newer kinds of- Shadowspawn immediately. However, in the Third Age, there is a dearth of Asian graduate students and Federal research grants (until Rand, of course).

 

These individuals are possessed of extra-ordinary talents, *but* they are only individuals, and when freed have to do everything themselves. It should be *more* impressive to realize *just how quickly* Be'lal and Sammael not only seized control of their nations, but did so by subverting a thousand years of oligarchic/parliamentary tradition, with the consent of the oligarchs/parliamentarians! You can't be Compelling all the time, unless -maybe- you are Graendal.

 

In the AoL, when they made themselves legends, they controlled vast organizations. There is no vast organization. There's a cell-based infiltration organization tightly and rigidly controlled and maintained by Ishamael (Darkfriends) that only he holds all the keys to they can try to steal elements from; otherwise, they had to start from scratch.

 

EDIT: Read the third page. Furthers my point, in fact.

 

The Forsaken, fighting alone and blind to each other, against the super-sa'angreal, *angreal defensive sets they'd never seen before, and a number of circles that should have dwarfed or equalled what the Forsaken could bring in terms of strength.

 

Eben dies, Sareitha is nearly killed, a number of the "good" channellers are severely wounded (including the "ace" Alivia with her combat ter'angreal set), someone else dies, I believe- and the Forsaken are at best "singed." Aside from Aginor, whose utter incompetence at anything other than his particular skill set- the chip designer?- is touted by everyone, even those on his own side. He dies because he walks right in front of a circle wielding Callandor and dares them to knock the chip off his shoulder. This is what he gets for trying the same gambit twice.

 

Why do the Forsaken stop? Were they driven off- or did they sense Rand stop channelling? If the latter, *Rand* could now come after them with the Choedan Kal, and the Forsaken aren't stupid. Rand's already taken out Rahvin head-to-head in his own lair, and they don't know about the angreal Rand had. Plus, their orders had expired.

[Snowy Dawn]

``someone else dies, I believe''

 

Kumira of the Brown Ajah. Pity that, she had good sense, and it's a shame to lose folks with the same :-)

 

``Why do the Forsaken stop? Were they driven off?''

 

Yes. Only the Spider remains when the great dome of the Dark One's taint collapses onto Shadar Logoth, and she was doing her best to stay out of the battle, as is her wont.

[BrainFireBob]

I was being rhetorical, to get people to think about the situation the Forsaken would have been aware of.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

False. Asmo- all the Forsaken- know there are ways to make death "permanent."

 

Rand had just used one against Rahvin, which Asmo was smugly reflecting on when he had that thought.

 

Mind, you *might* be right, but the logic doesn't *necessarily* follow.

 

You seem to have totally missed the point. 

 

Asmo thought that all deaths were permanent.  As of the last time he'd had any contact with the bad guys, nobody had ever been transmigrated.  He had no idea transmigration was possible.  He believed Aginor, Balthamel, Bel'al, Ba'alzamon, and Rahvin were all dead, dead, dead.  Never to return.  He hoped that Lanfear's little jaunt through the doorway had killed her, as well.

 

He was looking forward to seeing each of the others die, precisely because he believed that their deaths would also be permanent.

[BrainFireBob]

Go back and re-read your tFoH.

 

The *only two* Forsaken he is reflecting on having died are Rahvin and Lanfear. He is certain Rahvin is completely dead, and hopes Lanfear is too.

 

Since Lanfear died in another dimension, this is absolutely not incompatible with "he hoped transmigration was impossible, like it was for the balefired Rahvin."

 

The Forsaken know transmigration is possible- Ishy talks about it freely to Rand, and they all immediately were willing to consider that the transmigrated Forsaken were in fact ransmigrated. If they didn't know it was possible, it would not have been an idea- they knew it was possible. LTT, when confronted with Ishamael, threatens to kill him "beyond even what his master could repair." Meaning they knew for a damn fact it was possible, probably because the DO told them he *could*.

 

Now, whether he ever *did* in the AoL is a different story.

[42Bonzo88]

    Given the fact that this is a Wheel of Time, if the DO is going to be loosed along with 13 of his best wouldn't the wheel spin out powerful people to combat them? Someone said that Egwene, Nyn and Elayne were the best for many years.

[Bob T Dwarf]

BFB -

 

You're trying to have it both ways.  Either Asmo knew that transmigration was available, and therefore Rahvin and Lanfear would most likely be recycled, or he didn't.

 

If he *knew* transmigration was available, why would he feel any satisfaction at their being dead?  Why would he "laugh when each of the others died, too."?

 

He would only feel that way if he believed that they would be dead and gone forever.  Thus, he had no idea transmigration was possible.

[BrainFireBob]

Bob T, let's review:

 

Strong balefire makes transmigration impossible. Hence, Asmo knew for a damn fact Rahvin was dead. That's why he felt satisfaction at Rahvin's death depite the availability of transmigration- because Rahvin isn't eligible.

 

Lanfear either died or was stilled in another dimension. It's not outside the realm of WoT metaphysics as Asmo understood them that that meant she too, was ineligible for transmigration.

 

Do you even understand how transmigration works? It's been pretty clearly laid out that it's a *limited* power.

[Bob T Dwarf]

How it "works" and what Asmo knew are two very different things.

 

Reread the Prologue to LoC.  Demandred, who might have known that transmigration was possible ( Aginor, Balthamel, and Ba'alzy have all been in the incubator for awhile by then ) is alarmed to discover that the DO cannot "step outside of Time", and recycle Rahvin.

 

Asmo had no knowledge of transmigration at all.  He believed that all those who died in battle were dead and gone forever.

 

EDIT:

Let me amend that slightly.  He might also have been alarmed because the DO's admission that he couldn't recycle Rahvin was the first he was hearing about transmigration, at all.  When you think about it, if any of the bad guys really knew that transmigration was a possibility, they wouldn't have been engaging in the obviously futile exercise of trying to kill each other off.

 

Kill a rival, they just come back with blood in their eye.  Use balefire to do it and the DO get's ... unhappy... and suspicious.  And when the DO gets suspicious, "Chosen" have been known to vanish forever.  None of the "Chosen" would want to buy themselves any part of that.

 

Nope, until Osan'gar and Aran'gar turned up, none of them knew transmigration was a possibility.  Or, that it had limits.

[Bob T Dwarf]

A couple of further points:

 

Back in the Prologue to The Fires of Heaven, when the Gang of Four first gets together, things don't start well.  Rahvin is paranoid that Lanfear has come to kill him.  "He did not let go of the Power, but rather prepared several nasty surprises in case he had need."

 

Lanfear even goes so far as to reassure him: "Since you avoid the rest of us, a few of the Chosen will be coming here.  I came first so that you would know that it was not an attack."

 

Even so, Rahvin is less than convinced:"So it is no attack, is it?  You were never one for attacking openly, were you?  Not as bad as Moghedien, perhaps, but you still always did favor the flanks and the rear.  I will trust you this time, enough to hear you out.  As long as you are under my eye."

 

So, he obviously doesn't know anything about transmigration or he wouldn't be feeling the way he was.  Or, taking the precautions he was. 

 

Later, when the others have all arrived, we get this exchange:

"Should I expect more, Lanfear?"  he growled.  "Have you convinced Demandred to stop thinking he is all but the Great Lord's heir?"

 

"I doubt he is arrogant enough for that," Lanfear replied smoothly.  "He can see where it took Ishamael.  And that is the point.  A point Graendal raised.  Once we were thirteen immortal.  Now four are dead and one has betrayed us.  We four are all who meet here today, and enough."

 

That clearly indicates that both Lanfear and Graendal believe that Aginor, Balthamel, Bel'al, and IshyBa'alz are dead and gone forever.

 

A few lines later, regarding Asmo's supposed defection:

..."And when the choice became death or a doomed cause, it took little courage for him to choose."

 

Clear indication that Asmo made his choice as he did because he thought death would be permanent.

 

Another paragraph later, after Sam gets on her about not killing Asmo:

"I am not so quick to kill as you.  It is final, with no going back, and there are usually other, more profitable ways.  Besides, to put it in terms you would understand, I did not want to launch a frontal assault against superior forces."

 

Still later, when Graendal and Lanfear get into it, Sam thinks he sees an opening and is preparing to kill Lanfear, Graendal or both, but Rahvin feels him "gathering the Power", and stops him.

 

So, obviously, Sam believes that if he kills one or both of the women that they'll be out of his hair forever.  And, the women are prepared to duke it out because they both believe that they might be able to eliminate the other forever.

 

Thus, the Prologue to Lord of Chaos is the first time anybody begins to learn about the possibility of transmigration after death ( so long as they don't have the misfortune to get balefired ).

 

 

 

[BrainFireBob]

False logic, predicated on an insufficient alignment of predicates.

 

1) Death is permanent for Asmo in the incidence quoted because the DO would not recycle him, having no reason to do so. It is not a "freebie pass" the Forsaken can just assume they will receive.

 

2) The others having died does not mean they will not return, but better to suppose they will not. The quote serves to illustrate the threat, not non-knowledge.

 

3) The Forsaken would be most likely to know the limits on transmigration.

 

4) Death *is* final, for those not Chosen, and generally final for them.

 

You're taking the quotes out-of-context, and ignoring the in-context quotes, Bob. Transmigration:

 

1) Is a limited power (ie, the DO cannot exercise it willy-nilly).

2) Is not useable in all instances (ie, sufficiently strong balefire).

3) Is something the DO must *choose* to do, and isn't something he generally does.

 

All of your quotes above ignore these three facts about transmigration.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Again, what part of:

How transmigration "works" has nothing to do with what Asmo or any of the characters knew.

don't you understand?

 

You operate under the false premise that the characters know everything we do.  They don't.  The quotes I supplied amply demonstrate that.  Furthermore, until midway through LoC, none of us knew anything about transmigration, either.   Here's another quote for you:

Week 15 Question: What does the Dark One view as the worst punishment he can inflict on his minions: Killing them as painfully as possible? Balefire? Mindtrap? Being continually resurrected to suffer at his hand for eternity? Something we haven't seen yet?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The Dark One doesn't care about his minions sufficiently to invest much time in their punishment except as it serves to correct their behavior or as object lesson to others, nor is there much in the way of gradation. Simple failure and outright betrayal might be punished equally, or one might result in death and the other in becoming an object lesson or in something else. (The mindtrap, by the way, could be called an object lesson only to the one so trapped; remember, none of the Forsaken know who is mindtrapped except Moridin and those who are trapped.) The decision, death or object lesson or something else, normally would be simply a matter of whether or not he believed there was any point to an object lesson and/or whether or not he felt there was really any further use in the individual. Or, for that matter, made for reasons unknowable to a human mind. Remember, the Dark One is NOT human and thinking of him in human terms just doesn't work.

 

But he also operates under a constraint that did not exist in the Age of Legends. At that time, about 3% of the population could learn to channel to some extent, though not all chose to -- the training program took time, and being able to channel carried with it certain obligations that not everyone wanted to undertake -- but that still meant there were, at a minimum, hundreds of thousands of people in the world who could channel, and more likely millions. A large pool of possible recruits. Break a tool or decide it isn't working right and throw it out, because there is an endless supply of similar tools waiting on the shelf. That might be said to have been his attitude. In the here-and-now of the books, that figure is about 1%, and of that 1%, very, very few have any idea that they could learn to channel, much less have any training at all. Here-and-now, the pool of possible recruits is tiny.

 

Also, while the Forsaken themselves have realized that these primitives have discovered how to do things with the Power that they themselves cannot, or perhaps can once they learn how but never dreamed of doing until they found that the weaves existed here-and-now, they still think of people in the here-and-now as primitives, and their attitudes filter through to the Dark One, who believes that his people from the age of Legends are in all practical ways better -- for which read better trained, more capable, and thus better able to serve him efficiently and effectively -- than the people of the present time. And he is right. In a way. They are certainly better trained, with a much wider knowledge, at least in some areas. Some of their skills are absolutely useless in the society they are forced to live in. Aginor was a genius in biology and genetics, but in this world, he had no way to make the tools to make the tools to make the tools…. Well, you get the idea. Pity the poor chip designer dropped into the seventeenth century.

 

In any event, the Dark One tries to conserve his resources, using and reusing those he might have killed himself, or ordered killed, in a time where there were thousands to equal them.

 

Death was permanent for Asmo because the DO could not recycle him due to "how he died and where he died." ( another Jordan quote )

 

 

[Myndrunner]

Since AMOL is the last book of this series, or at least, of this Age, I think anything goes now.  We may see the highest character body count in any book here, even some of our favorites.  From a writer's perspective, when you have too many good characters, one or two have to go permanently or your story can get crowded. Besides, Asmodean could not be around when Taim showed up or it would either reveal or dismiss Taim being another Forsaken.

 

 

[aevogt]

To use the arguement that the Forsaken did not know about transmigration, at least in the AoL, because they show a healthy fear of death misses several crucial points.

 

1. Death is permanent UNLESS all the finicky parameters for transmigration are met

2. Being killed will invariably be unpleasant and should therefore be avoided at all costs.

3. The DO has a wicked sense of humor and there'e no telling who or what they'd be brought back as. (though I kind of respect that)

4. There is no guarantee that the DO, not known for loyalty to his servents, quite the opposite, would even be inclined to bring them back

 

Everyone, especially those allegedly granted immortality, is wise to fear death.

 

I remember back in the days of my misspent youth playing D&D over beer and homegrown.  One of our cabal's favorite thief characters was killed in action.  We then went on a quest to bring him back but due to a particularly evil DM, he couldn't be resurrected, only reincarnated.  In any event, he was brought back, but wasn't much good as a thief with two hands and  four hooves.

[Myndrunner]

It seems like there are also diminishing returns in regards to the Forsaken being "reimagined" or "reincarnated" after death.  Both Cyndane and the 'Gars all seemed to be weaker in the power than before.

 

Now, contrast that to the sudden surge in good guys strong in the power (Rand, Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne, et all), perhaps the balance of the wheel is at it again.

 

 

[Majsju]

Cyndane is weaker.

There is not a single reference to neither Aran'gar or Osan'gar (or Moridin for that matter) being the slightest weaker than before.