Egwene for Amyrlin.One in a million chance.Why?Taveren job ?

[trakand_01]

I think Egwene is just Egwene. Uppity, confident, a bit snobby, but then she's been raised as the Innkeeper's daughter - the eldest daughter of quite a prestigious family in her little village.

 

I think the reason Moiraine finally relented and let her go when she showed up in the barn with her bundle of clothes way back in tEotW, was that she knew she could channel. Also, knowing that one of Rand / Mat / Perrin was the Dragon Reborn and finding a girl who was already so stronly potentialed in the power and no-where near her peak, she couldn't resist returning to the Tower in triumph with her in tow. I'm certain that's why she also let Nynaeve carry on with them after she showed up.

 

I think that when Egwene et al reached the tower and Moiraine met with Siuan, they recognised what a hammer Egwene was, especially as Rand was her 'betrothed' and he was already showing some retaliation. I think they intended to use her as bait, if need be. If Rand got too far off the scale, out of control they could reel him back in with Egwene.

 

What they didnt count on was a) Egwene's stubbornness, or b) Rand's reluctance to draw any more women into it than he has to.

 

I think when Siuan and Leane reached Salidar and they started their little schemes, one of the things they worked on was bringing Egwene back into it, using her.

 

Of course that all backfired for the Little Tower, but for Siuan and Leane, what a triumph!

[Luckers]

QUOTE

Rand's ta'maral'ailen does not effect that far

UNUOTE

 

Ta'maral'ailen? What the hell is that?

 

Just to add to what Maj and the Thin Inn Keeper said--the full translation of ta'maral'ailen is Web of Destiny. We learn it in tGH from Alar.

 

So as it says the Web can last for years the Egwene becoming Amyrlin thing very well could have been a Ta'veren Web. Although I do still think that too many things about Egwene herself are crucial to her being selected.

 

The Web can last for years--as in a man can remain ta'veren, creating a web around him for years--or for merely months. But the effect isn't cascading. A person influenced is influenced only for the period of influence--they can't pass it on, and it doesn't remain as a consistant influence.

 

In effect Egwene's ascension couldn't be Rand's doing--unless Rand were close enough to Salidar during the periods these people were deciding, his influence on chance and the effects that has on people wouldn't affect their decisions.

[Majsju]

Egwene being raised Amyrlin is also a direct consequence of Siuan getting involved with the Dragon Reborn in the first place. Something Siuan did almost 20 years before Rand became ta'veren.

 

When Siuan was deposed, and the rebellion had started to form, Egwene was the logical choice due to her strength and her relation to rand, both things that has nothing to do with Rand being ta'veren.

 

At the most, Rand being ta'veren might have nudged Egwene to join the party when they left the Two Rivers, which set her on her path. Bud judging from her character, I do not see that any ta'veren pulling would have been necessary.

[Luckers]

All I'm saying is Rand is not the originating point for all causality in the story, and he had no direct influence on the decision making of anyone involved in raising Egwene--Suian was not within the influence of his ta'maral'ailen when she decided to try and raise Egwene, the Little Council was not within the influence of his ta'maral'ailen when they took up (were manipulated) into that position, the Hall was not within his influence when he voted.

 

Aside from the general anarchy his existence has caused there is no correlation between Rand and Egwene's ascension.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Disagree.

 

"And sometimes the Wheel bends a life-thread, or several threads, in such a way that all the surrounding threads are forced to swirl around it, and those force other threads, and those still others, and on and on."

If that's not a cascade, then cascades don't exist.

 

As Jordan repeatedly pointed out, need is the governing factor.  Rand is the Wheel's Champion in the struggle to preserve the status quo.  The Wheel will do anything needful to see that its Champion has anything required to attain success.  Arranging a few threads within the Pattern such that Egwene becomes Amyrlin would be a minor detail in that pursuit.

[benr]

Well, of course, you are both right - Rand has no direct influence here, just everyone's desire to control him - Rand being Rand.  But Bob T is right, events are "cascading" towards TG, and the wheel demands that the AmS be totally behind Rand - as much as possible, since you are still dealing with some degree of free will.  Egwene was destined to be the AmS, and the course of events as laid out that lead to this happening are brilliant, and totally believable within the story - not an easy task given Egwene's youth, lack of experience, and lack of even being Aes Sedai.  Best story line in the books. 

[Luckers]

Disagree.

 

"And sometimes the Wheel bends a life-thread, or several threads, in such a way that all the surrounding threads are forced to swirl around it, and those force other threads, and those still others, and on and on."

If that's not a cascade, then cascades don't exist.

 

As Jordan repeatedly pointed out, need is the governing factor.  Rand is the Wheel's Champion in the struggle to preserve the status quo.  The Wheel will do anything needful to see that its Champion has anything required to attain success.  Arranging a few threads within the Pattern such that Egwene becomes Amyrlin would be a minor detail in that pursuit.

 

Thats not a cascade. Rand's influence as a ta'veren has a limited reach. Beyond that reach the influence of the massively peculiar events that occur around him may require massive reactions--but those reactions are purely of their own volition. Rand's influence does not effect them, and their actions will not elude the normal bounds of chance and causality.

 

The rest of what you said is completely unsupported and requires a degree of sentience in the wheel that escapes the fuzzy logic that rules it. The Wheel, like a sophisticated program, will detect varience in the direction of the Age Lace. It throws out ta'veren as a self-correcting machenism--the ta'veren loosen the threads, creating enough slack for the flow of events to change direction.

 

It does not tweak specific events, or back specific individuals. Such is beyond it, and has been stated as such more then once by both RJ and characters within the text. If Rand died it would weave on with no notice.

 

Again, as RJ said, this is not dues ex machina. Rand has a influence over a limited area, and that influence ceases with that area. Others may react, but their reactions are perfectly normal within the scope of normal reality and their normal mental dispositions. Rand's ta'verenism had no impact on the decisions of the people that raised Egwene Amyrlin.

[bRANDan]

I agree with everyone. Just to throw in my two cents here, Egwene being raised Amyrlin Seat has nothing to do with Rand's Ta'veren pull, as Luckers said. But Rand has everything to do with Egwene being raised Amyrlin Seat, the fact that he's the Dragon Reborn has set the entire stage for her ascension. Take Arad Doman and Tarabon, they were in no way affected by Rand's Ta'veren pull but they erupted into chaos simply by hearing the Dragon had been reborn. Ta'veren is something that affects the here-and-now spontaneity and chance, whereas Rand's existence, and knowledge of his existence, is the spark that has set off circumstances and conflicts that have been fermenting since the breaking , ie- Aiel coming out of the Waste, civil wars, WT splitting.

[Luckers]

Oh yes, don't get me wrong, i definately agree that the implications of Rand's exitence had a massive direct effect on her being raised... i was only ever saying that his ta'verenism did not.

[bRANDan]

i was only ever saying that his ta'verenism did not.

 

I know Luckers, I just thought others might not have looked at it this way.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Look closely at the only real definition for taverenism that the books give us:

 

"And sometimes the Wheel bends a life-thread, or several threads, in such a way that all the surrounding threads are forced to swirl around it, and those force other threads, and those still others, and on and on."

 

That is equivalent to a gravity well.  The existence of any single gravity well distorts all of space-time.  The closer to that gravity well the greater the distortion, but there is no arbitrary point, or horizon beyond which there is no distortion.  Beyond a certain distance, we have no way to determine if it was the gravity well that brought two particles into contact or whether they would have touched anyway due to random chance, but the one thing we can say for sure is that the gravity well did have an effect  on their motion and thus the timing of when they met.

 

Think of taveren strength as a measure of stellar density and thus the gravitational strength with which it distorts space-time.

 

We have three strong taveren in these books.  Rand being the strongest.  That's equivalent to a tri-star system with three dense stars.  That's a LOT of distortion of space-time.  And, it effects everything else in space-time to a greater or lesser degree depending on that thing's distance.  It also insures that an untold number of things that would have happened anyway now happen according to a different time-scale.  And, that some things that wouldn't have ordinarily happened do.

 

In any event, it is impossible to draw a line and say, "Taverenism extends this far and no farther."

[bRANDan]

That is equivalent to a gravity well.

 

While I enjoy seeing others here with knowledge of physics, and am inclined to wonder just how many of us there are on these forums, I do have to disagree. I think it's more like Pool, if you take a shot that makes the cue ball spin it only oddly affects the balls it comes into contact with, those balls then go on to normally hit other balls in collisions that wouldn't have happened and those balls go on to hit others still. It's a chain reaction, but you can't say the spin of the cue ball directly influenced a ball it did not come into contact with.

 

I think it is the same with Ta'veren, it can only affect the immediate vicinity. Though others will be affected by it, they are not directly affected, unlike gravity, which has a direct effect no matter the distance, only the magnitude is affected. The quote you gave seems to indicate indirect consequences to me. The Ta'verenism goes no further than those initially affected, beyond that there is only indirect consequences. In the case of Egwene's ascension I see no direct Ta'verenism. Even if Rand was not a Ta'veren, as long as someone found out he was the Dragon Reborn and Suian helped him, then the same situation could have happened. It was Ta'veren that helped Rand be truly announced as the Dragon Reborn, which in the end was the indirect force that split the WT and eventually led to Egwene becoming Amyrlin.

 

It's like the saying about a butterfly flapping it's wings causing a tornado on the other side of the world. Seeing as how nobody's out searching for "that damn fly that started the Katrina Hurricane" in the USA, then I guess it's a safe bet to say Egwene becoming amyrlin was completely her and the Little Tower's doing, no Ta'veren effects ... unless you want me to get someone searching for that fly  ;). I think Bush might actually listen if he was told that, there'd be a new "War on Terror", they'd hunt down all of those nasty flies and pull their wings off at Guantanamo Bay. Lol.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think you're making too great a distinction between direct and indirect effects.

 

After all, there would be no indirect effect if there were no direct effect.

 

Now, as far as a straight uninflected line stretching from Rand to Egwene becoming Amyrlin, I'd agree.  That line of effect extended through, and was inflected by, many other people and events.  And, each of those people and events were in turn affected by others not only Rand, but definitely including Rand.

 

In the last analysis, Rand's taverenism ( or that of all three together ) was the butterfly that stirred up the storm.

[Bob T Dwarf]

While we can all see some benefit to Egwene's being Amyrlin for Rand, I actually think most of that benefit funnels through Mat.  Making Mat the most proximate factor.

 

Egwene's lifelong friend is also the Seanchan Empress' husband.  Given all the signs and portents about Big Doings between the Tower and the Seanchan, he's in a position to have the most direct influence on the outcome of said Big Doings.

 

That outcome will have a direct bearing on how TG plays out.  The Wheel has a vested interest in that.

 

The necessity for TG, and for TG now, is what drove the Wheel to put certain souls with certain capabilities into certain bodies over 20 years ago.  That's not deus ex machina, just a very capable machine that has the ability to scan The Pattern for a long way ahead and weave-in the threads 20 years ago that will result in the matching Age Lace now.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

"And sometimes the Wheel bends a life-thread, or several threads, in such a way that all the surrounding threads are forced to swirl around it, and those force other threads, and those still others, and on and on."

UNQUOTE

 

I don't think that quote gives definite confirmation, far from it, not without the full entry. Could we get a book & page number on it so we could read the first part of the passage please? T'would help the debate, methinks

[Bob T Dwarf]

Maj came up with the original quote, I just copied it.

 

My guess would be start looking in tEotW somewhere around Ch. 36

[Majsju]

Yup, as mentioned in this very thread, TEOTW Ch36. When Loial is explaining ta'veren to Rand in Caemlyn.

 

Dreadlord, was it not you that asked for that very quote in the first place?

[Luckers]

I think you're making too great a distinction between direct and indirect effects.

 

And i think you are not. The effects of ta'verenism are directly stated in their effect... it is a real, percievable state that influences people and chance into direct effect.

 

Sorry bud, but you can decribe stellar formation all you want--we have witnessed the bredth of Rand's ta'maral'ailen and it could not have held any influence on the decisions of those involved in raising Egwene.

 

While we can all see some benefit to Egwene's being Amyrlin for Rand, I actually think most of that benefit funnels through Mat.  Making Mat the most proximate factor.

 

Egwene's lifelong friend is also the Seanchan Empress' husband.  Given all the signs and portents about Big Doings between the Tower and the Seanchan, he's in a position to have the most direct influence on the outcome of said Big Doings.

 

That outcome will have a direct bearing on how TG plays out.  The Wheel has a vested interest in that.

 

Again, no, the Wheel has no vested interest... that implies too much sentience. The Wheel, as RJ has informed us, has a certain degree of fuzzy logic. It sensed the Wheel drifting off track and threw ta'veren out to loosen the threads of reality and give it the slack it needs to change direction.

 

It does not, however, have the sense of direct intelligence to specifically influenc individual events.

 

And even if it did, that would not be Rand--his ta'verenism couldn't reach Salidar.

 

Again, for the third time, you are all speaking of dues ex machina. RJ has directly stated that ta'vernism is not that.

 

The necessity for TG, and for TG now, is what drove the Wheel to put certain souls with certain capabilities into certain bodies over 20 years ago.  That's not deus ex machina, just a very capable machine that has the ability to scan The Pattern for a long way ahead and weave-in the threads 20 years ago that will result in the matching Age Lace now.

 

So its not god from the machine, its demi-god from the machine? Please. RJ has directly commented on the degree of active intelligence the wheel has, and it precludes the chance of such intricate manipulation. But again even if it was--not Rand's doing. Sorry buddy.

[benr]

Would Egwene have become AmS at any time without Rand's existence?

[Majsju]

Would Egwene have become AmS at any time without Rand's existence?

 

Probably not, since it is quite unlikely any Aes Sedai would have made it to the Two Rivers in time to have her sent to the Tower for training.

 

Though if she had gone there, she would have stodd a decent chance to become Amyrlin eventually just based on her own merits, as she is very intelligent, and exceptionally strong in the OP.

[Bob T Dwarf]

We're really starting to pick nits now, but what the hey...

 

Again, you're trying to impose an artificial horizon on the ultimate effects of an infinite influence.

 

I already said, I agree that there is no direct uninflected line.  But the ripples do spread outward.  Throw a rock in the water off a California beach and it effects the wave that washes up on a Japanese beach.  You or I might not be able to perceive the change, but it's there.

 

Yes, I also agree.  I think Eggy would have made it anyway.  But it probably would have taken decades.

 

It was taverenism that drew Moiraine to Emonds Field at just that time.  It was taverenism that got Eggy included in the party that left.  Thus, ultimately it was taverenism that put Eggy in the position to be selected as Amyrlin.  Without that taverenism, Egwene would still be wearing her hair in a braid and wondering whether or not she should marry Rand.

[bRANDan]

Here's another analogy for you:

 

You work in a warehouse, shipping and recieving. You have to get a crate shipped from Canada to the US. You can't pick it up yourself, so you use a forklift. The crate gets put on the truck and shipped out.

 

Ta'veren is like the forklift, affecting things around the operator. Without the forklift the crate might not have been moved. The forklift itself does not affect anything that it does not come into contact with, but the effects of it's operation can be seen, ie-the crate reaching it's destination, though the forklift had nothing to do with actually getting it to it's destination.

 

If we were dealing with things that had no intelligence, like gravity and matter, then I would agree with you Bob. But with intelligence, Ta'verenism can affect all those people in its perimeter of effect, and yet have no net change. Simply because all of the people that then come into contact with the "Ta'veren affected people" could simply say "oh, that's nice but I think I'll keep on doing what I was doing before you showed up".

 

AS for the rock thrown into water analogy, it would be the equivalent of throwing the rock into the water and sometimes the ripples would spread outwards and and affect every other ripple and wave, but sometimes the ripples would get a meter from the source and simply cease to exist. Or if you dropped the rock into the antarctic ocean but the ripples only spread up the atlantic ocean.

[Luckers]

We're really starting to pick nits now, but what the hey...

 

Again, you're trying to impose an artificial horizon on the ultimate effects of an infinite influence.

 

I already said, I agree that there is no direct uninflected line.  But the ripples do spread outward.  Throw a rock in the water off a California beach and it effects the wave that washes up on a Japanese beach.  You or I might not be able to perceive the change, but it's there.

 

Yes, I also agree.  I think Eggy would have made it anyway.  But it probably would have taken decades.

 

It was taverenism that drew Moiraine to Emonds Field at just that time.  It was taverenism that got Eggy included in the party that left.  Thus, ultimately it was taverenism that put Eggy in the position to be selected as Amyrlin.  Without that taverenism, Egwene would still be wearing her hair in a braid and wondering whether or not she should marry Rand.

 

Certainly, but your talking about normal causality.  Rand's existence triggers events that led to the situation in which the Aes Sedai could be raised--but by the same token, you could therefore say that Myrelle caused Egwene to be raised when she dobbed on Elaida in New Spring and began the life-long hatred Elaida had of Suian which resulted in her moving to depose Suian which led Suian to seek to see someone else raised that she could influence.

 

Yes Rand's ta'vernism causes extreme circumstances within a specific field, and yes, peoples reactions to those circumstance outside of that field would need to be appropriately extreme themselves. But nevertheless those reactions are done within a perfectly normal scope. These people decisions and mental states are not being influence by the reality bending effects of the ta'veren--they may be reacting to that bending, but they themselves are not effected.

 

Rand's ta'maral'ailen had no influence on Suian when she chose to see Egwene raised, none on the small council when they fell in with that plan and enacted it, and none on the Hall when they voted on it. Rand's existence would have been something they considered, doubtlessly, but they were their normal, rational selves.

 

Effectively, Egwene got raised on the merits of the arguments to raise her--there was no reality bending, chance altering effects influencing those decisions.

 

 

[Harmless Bandit]

I want to get technical for a bit...

 

 

It does not tweak specific events, or back specific individuals. Such is beyond it, and has been stated as such more then once by both RJ and characters within the text. If Rand died it would weave on with no notice.

 

 

This is something Luckers said earlier on. I do understand (kind of) that the Wheel is not fully sentient, but since it's 'weaving',  I'm led to believe that it is on a certain course (whether it's a specific goal, or it's just weaving in ageneral direction). The self-correct mechanism (ta'veren) seems to imply that.

 

I don't understand how the Wheel would weave on if Rand died. From what is in the books, a dead Rand = the Last Battle is lost = the Dark One is free to do whatever it is she/he/it wants to (break the Wheel?) In any case, I believe the Wheel's weaving would be at an end (in the way it's supposed to be). Now, that should not be in the Wheel's to do list.

 

Unless, of course, Rand dies after the Last Battle. Then I guess it would take no notice.

 

 

Again, no, the Wheel has no vested interest... that implies too much sentience. The Wheel, as RJ has informed us, has a certain degree of fuzzy logic. It sensed the Wheel drifting off track and threw ta'veren out to loosen the threads of reality and give it the slack it needs to change direction.

 

It does not, however, have the sense of direct intelligence to specifically influence individual events.

 

 

Hmm, that makes me wonder. Rand at first denied that he was the Dragon Reborn, however, when he fights Ishamael over Falme they appear in the sky, there and other places. I can't remember any other special effects like that in the books. Wasn't that kind of a direct intervention? It certainly influenced (greatly) his life afterwards. If not the Wheel, then who/what?

 

And if you consider things with hindsight, everything seems to had been put in place for Rand's birth. Like LTT killing himself in such manner as to raise Dragonmount, at the foot of which Rand would conveniently be born (as the prophecies said, of course).

 

There are other examples of this kind of foreknowledge, and this just puzzles me.

[Luckers]

This is something Luckers said earlier on. I do understand (kind of) that the Wheel is not fully sentient, but since it's 'weaving',  I'm led to believe that it is on a certain course (whether it's a specific goal, or it's just weaving in ageneral direction). The self-correct mechanism (ta'veren) seems to imply that.

 

I don't understand how the Wheel would weave on if Rand died. From what is in the books, a dead Rand = the Last Battle is lost = the Dark One is free to do whatever it is she/he/it wants to (break the Wheel?) In any case, I believe the Wheel's weaving would be at an end (in the way it's supposed to be). Now, that should not be in the Wheel's to do list.

 

Unless, of course, Rand dies after the Last Battle. Then I guess it would take no notice.

 

The Wheel would weave on because it is not directly in a war with the Dark One. the Dark One is manipulating the Age Lace away from the direction it should travel, and so the Wheel is acting against the Dark One instinctively in its effort to redirect the flow of events. The loss of Rand would affect its efforts to a negative degree, but it wouldn't admit defeat because it is not technically fighting.

 

Beyond that it is confusing. We are told subjectively by characters that if the Shadow defeats Rand it is the end, yet the Shadow makes a massive effort to subvert him--even when it could have killed him--and Ishamael could have in the dreamworld in the first book--it did not in favour of an effor to turn him. That indicates that his life is not the directly important thing, but rather his on going opposition. Perhaps even if Rand loses this turning it does not directly mean the end.

 

It's confusing.

 

Hmm, that makes me wonder. Rand at first denied that he was the Dragon Reborn, however, when he fights Ishamael over Falme they appear in the sky, there and other places. I can't remember any other special effects like that in the books. Wasn't that kind of a direct intervention? It certainly influenced (greatly) his life afterwards. If not the Wheel, then who/what?

 

It is my belief that what occured in Falme was the result of two things. I believe that the Horn of Valere in some way blurs reality, causing a cross between the real world and tel'aran'rhiod that allows the heroes to manifest. From there i believe events are explained by Rand's ta'verenism. With reality suddenly fluid and easily manipulated, the effect of Rand's ta'maral'ailen was suddenly dramatically emphasized--the link between his success and the success of the Heroes, the throw out of the visions... his existence, and his battles were dramatically emphasized by the effect of the Horn on reality.

 

And if you consider things with hindsight, everything seems to had been put in place for Rand's birth. Like LTT killing himself in such manner as to raise Dragonmount, at the foot of which Rand would conveniently be born (as the prophecies said, of course).

 

The Wheel has an interesting mixture of determinism and liberalism. The prophecies show a direct line of events--which makes sense, the Wheel weaves to a set design. Yet the Dark One can skew that design, and the Wheel in turn has machenism's set into it to adjust to a drifting--ta'veren which create enough slack to change the direction of the weaving, heroes to counter-act specific people.

 

It's one of the most intriguing philosophical answers to determinism that I've encountered--and we must remember that RJ has a backing in physics.