To live you must die

[Lui2692]

I just hope Jordan doesnt do the jesus thing with rand, that hole concept crops up everywhere the matrix is one that most people know but video games and books alike seem to love the whole concept of the hero getting killed off to save everyone.

[Kadere]

But he is going to do the whole "Jesus thing", Rand has to die, "His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul." We've been expecting it for 16 years.

[dacovale]

"His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" does not mean all of his blood on Shayol Ghul. This could mean many things including:

 

1) He slits his hand and drops blood on rocks to fulfill prophecy (similar to the Pirates of the Carribean).

 

2) Any child or family of his is "his blood". This could mean his children (from Elayne) need to be there with him for some reason, be they unborn or no. There are many speculations that Rand's children are the twin Heroes of the Horn (I can't remember their names).

 

Also remember that Galad is Rand's blood as they share a mother.

[Lui2692]

What if: Rand has two wounds on his side that are competing evils correct? one from fain and one from moridin sooo what if blood on the rocks of shayol ghul is the blood from those two wounds and somehow the competion of these two evils will be magnified and in effect reseal the prison but when the wounds are drained all the evil that has consumed rands body will be drained out with it in effect killing him but giving him a small chance to live through nyneave's healing.

[FelixA9]

I think "To live you must die" means Rand dies. Kaput. And then lives in TAR with the rest of the heros of the horn. No switching bodies. Gone.

[ilgross]

He fakes his death with help from Alivia

[Inara]

i dont think there will be faking involved.

alivia will help him do something crucial to the triumph of the light, he will die doing this.

because if he lives, the dark wins, and he will never be reborn into the wheel, hence...to live, you must die.

it is his fate, he must accept it for the light to win.

clearing the rubble to build a new building...he is that rubble, he is the past, the price, of the future.

 

hmm, 2am makes me think in circles....i think i'll re-post tomorrow

[Aviendha]

If rand lives it doesn't automatically mean that the dark has won. Yes it's been said that to live you must first die and we have all that 'his blood on the rocks' stuff but nowhere does it clearly and specifically state that the dragon must die for the light to win over the shadow.

 

it is possible that the dragon can win and live ... nothing said or done so far has ruled this out. but I agree that it is only one possibility.

[Luckers]

I do think that if there is no body swap, then rand will die. The various dreams, prophecies and auras seem to clear on that for it to be a faked death...it just doesn't fit to me. But i do think there will be a body swap, so meh.

[mightisright]

I think Rand will ultimately live, and if I was going to guess I would say the body swap theory and fake death theory both have merit. If Rand fakes his death it could be interpreted as the 'death' of The Lord Dragon not Rand Al'Thor. A body swap would also allow him to live on anonymously, and I think that is ultimately his goal - to rest. More likely then not i'm wrong and RJ will fullfill this prophesy in a way nobody has guessed, but if I was a gambling man...

[buffett97]

With the whole aspect of having to die in order to live, wouldn't this in effect relate directly to Rand and LTT? Rand says how LTT is alwyas saying that he wants to end it and die. It seems a lot more probable to me that at TG, LTT dies and Rand lives. In order for Rand to live, LTT has to die. So, it would be 'his' blood (referring to Rand) but really LTT's that is spilled. In order to live he has to die ... They are the same person at the moment. At least, that is how I see it.

[Angelica]

ISAM/LUC is "Blood-kin" to Rand(and Lan), and we havnt heard much from him except with perrin in the Two rivers. what if its his blood that gets spilled? and Alivia is the one who kills him?

[weeping anchor]

Isam has been tasked with killing Lan, his nephew.

 

Going to be a bit harder given Lan will now be on the move for most of the last book.

 

Think this was in WH or CoT where he pops out and assassinates, then learns it was not the couple (Lan and Nynaeve) he was targetting.

 

I think Perrin is destined to end up killing Isam/Luc/Slayer in the wolf dream once he works out that the Last Battle will be fought in TAR as well as the waking world.

 

The dragon's blood staining the rocks of shayul ghul

 

For the price he must pay

 

Rand crushing the seals

 

"PART of his answer from the Ael Finn and Eel Finn."

 

Alivia will help him die

 

The lion, the spear, she who sees beyond on a boat with his body

 

Logain stepping over Rand's body, which crumbles indicating trickery/illusion

 

Rand needs a false body to display in death. Could Rand and LTT split in TAR?? "One of you dies, one of you lives."

 

However, RJ does not strike me as being overly sentimental. I think Rand is to die, we've had enough warnings of his christlike qualities. He may re-appear in TAR and speak to Avi/Elayne??

 

His blood will live on in his children; either for them to live, he must die, or for his soul to live on in TAR, his body must die. I think for Rand to survive beyond TG is a cop out from the "harsh realities"...look what others have had to endure, why should he be spared given what others have given up for him...

[Guest Majsju]

<Isam has been tasked with killing Lan, his nephew.

 

Going to be a bit harder given Lan will now be on the move for most of the last book.

 

Think this was in WH or CoT where he pops out and assassinates, then learns it was not the couple (Lan and Nynaeve) he was targetting.>

 

It's in WH, and I suggest you reread that chapter.

First of all, it's as Luc, not Isam that Slayer does the hit.

Then, Isam and Lan are cousins, Luc is Rand's uncle. So by killing his nephew he obviously means Rand.

[weeping anchor]

Majsju - Thanks for the correction - I remember now (I think). For reference, do you remember where the story of Isam was given? I remember that it is part of the betrayal of Malkier and the story of Lan's escape etc.

 

So who do you think will kill Slayer/Isam/Luc? What is your theory? Will this character perish? Perrin is best suited to fight Slayer, Rand is related to Luc and knows he killed his Aiel father, and Lan could either have some form of vengeance against the shadow by killing Isam, or even possibly redeem him (this would have to be for the kiddies fluffy version where no-one really dies).

 

A slightly philosophical one for you - do Dark Hounds go to the Wolf dream in death??

[Guest Majsju]

The story of Isam is in TEOTW, chapter 47, and TGH chapter 7.

 

I think Fain will kill him, since Slayer is hunting him. There is no connection between Perrin and Slayer, only that random encounter. And even though he went after Rand once, the chances of that happening again seems quite small, with Moridin again issuing the order that killing Rand is a no-no.

 

And Lan? Definitly not, Slayer is an assassin, not the kind of character who goes out on the battlefield.

 

No, it will be Fain.

[thegreatbabu]

here's my looney theory.

 

rand and moridin switch bodies. however, moridin is left with nowhere to go because LTT is still in Rand's body. LTT seals the bore by overdrawing on the one powere through callandor and making an entirely new SG.

[weeping anchor]

Thank you for the story references, appreciated.

 

I get that Isam/Luc/Slayer was after Fain in TSR, but I think we've not seen any evidence of continued involvement in this fight/search.

 

I'm assuming the 50+ pack of darkhounds that circled Perrin are targetted against Fain, but again no real evidence of what they're after, and no mention of any "cold" smell with them, so no indication Slayer has anything to do with this. (Majsju - Who/What do you think these darkhounds are after??)

 

I think something to do with TAR will lead to Slayer's demise...RJ using irony again. It will be Perrin as favorite option for me, catching him and having him run to the Tower of Genji inside of TAR while Matt and Co are inside doing the whole Moraine rescue thing, and slayer gets toasted by one or the other. Bet the blinking foxes never saw THAT coming...

 

I wonder if Fain is intended to have a Golum like role in the final sequence, being an inadvertant integral part of defeating the shadow. This would be disappointing. Fain should be resolved before the last battle, if only to put to rest the criticisms of similarity to Tolkien.

[WOT_Fan]

We know that Slayer can 'switch' bodies at will (when entering & exiting from Tel'aran'rhiod). We also know that Luc and Isam at some point were two separate persons and somehow merged into one.

 

What if Rand could obtain info on how this is done (perhaps after Slayer is defeated/captured by Perrin or someone else)? This would allow him to swap bodies/merge with Moridin once the inevitable showdown happens..and would also fulfill Min's viewing of Rand and another person merging into another person.

 

Also a side note, if Rand and Moridin somehow merged, would Rand/Moridin now possess the mind-traps and be able to control Lanfear & Moggy as well?

 

Just my loony theory.....

[Featherless Hawkwing]

Cyndane's mindtrap in Rand's hands? LTT in Rand's body? That would be delicious.

[dega]

The Dragon is the creators champion. While that makes him unique it doesn't make him uncorruptable. The dark one would know this better than anyone but what is the best way to defeat an enemy; convert them, they are weakened while you are strengthened.

On the horn note, while the horn is essesentialy a tool for the light it can be used by the dark. The dark one doesn't send gray men after you because you're pretty or you're ta'veren. If someone was to kill mat and a member of the black ajah somehow found it and blew the horn, she would be bound and in turn the serves the dark side.As to how all the heros know the dragon, well Herid Fel already told in a way. after a dragon reborn saves the world a golden age comes untill the power is forgotten like present day. Some time later the power is rediscovered in another golden age(beginning of age of legends) the power being used on for good turns a golden age into a platinum age. Here comes the catch someone gets an idea and pops a seal that contains energy(by this time everyone will have forgot about the dark one.From there a repeat of the breaking, dragon reborn, etc. My theory is that the creater keeps a soul, a unique one on call whenever evil starts to rear its' ugly head. Much like your favorite shoe your wear when you need it and take it off when you don't, if it gets dirty rinse and repeat.

(Sorry for such a long post just stay me. ) As for Alivia I think she will play a part with the reborn Lanfear.

As for the name of this thread, well all three(Rand, Mat, Perrin) have been told that to live you must die. So being that Moridin cannot be used for body hopping by three people...

As far as rand's beat up corpse is concerned. His eyes are merely very light sensitive, hence the band around his eyes. His hand Elayne will somehow fix(The Great Hunt, when Egwene first talks to Elayne)his hand. The wound at his side is a part of prophecy after all the hubbub of perhaps the faking of thier deaths rand will get Damer and Nyneave linked to do it.

I thank you for reading this chaotic hodgepodge.

[NorrinRadd]

LTT wants to Die,The Wheel will be broken by the DO and once this happens LTT will be free of the Wheel's turning but he can't let the DO win, hence the Title AMOL, LTT will Defeat the DO but He'll get his Salvation as well,EternalPeace, Rand will be free of LTT due to the Wheels breaking as well & He'll get to Live(How is up to RJ^.~) & Narishma will follow after. Rand disappears on the Boat & Logain 's Glory as The Leader of the Forces of Light is Assured. I have alot more speculations on this I'll post them as people reply.

[Baalroc]

Not sure if this theory has been posted or not but....

 

 

What about the possibility of LTT merging with Moridin. What if their was a way that the link that was formed between Rand and Moridin could be used by LTT to transfer into Moridins body. The aftermath would be the real dragon LTT fighting Ishy/Moridin inside his body, maybe finally coming to apoint where LTT wins, pulling in too much of the OP and causing LTT or Moridin to die at the same time, sealing the bore. This would also support the theory that for Rand to live he must die, ie LTT being part of him dying but by LTT dying he is preventing Moridin from killing Rand.

[Kaffa]

What bothers me is this.... RJ has said that he had the ending before he ever started writing the series. But we also know that he originally planned on making it three books long. But LTT didn't really appear until after the first three books.

 

So as to how or if he fits into the final moments of TG seems pretty hazy.... But I'd be tickled pink if he got some revenge on Ishy.