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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Have a theory...


Brooke
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Okay I have a theory about Mat and Brigitte; however, I don't want to be brining up old topics for all y'all or posting things where I shouldn't, but I just cannot find this when I do a search and I'm not sure where else I should be posting theories and theory type questions. So before I get too deep into my theory could some one tell me if this is an okay place to post it or if I should be going some where else. I was almost thinking about doing it on the post cast board. I'm loving the pod casts.

 

I've been listening to them at work for the past two days. I'm about half way threw them now and have yet to hear them mention this.

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Okay so...

 

It's believed that Mat has died at least once. I've seen a couple of different things and am only on my second reading of the books so my memory may be a little cloudy here. I know that he was hung outside the door in Rhuidean. And that I am considering for this purpose his death. After that meeting he started having another man's memories.

 

When Brigitte is thrown out onto the wheel without being "reborn" so to speak she is very worried because she always gets thrown back out into time with a particular man (some one please help me here I cannot remember his name for some reason I think it is Cain, but I just don't think that is right). She said he had been missing for some time and she was getting worried about it.

 

I believe that after Mat's hanging something similar to Rand's situation happened. I believe the memories Mat is having are the memories of the person Brigitte is so worried about. Thus meaning that her and this man were thrown back out into the pattern according to tradition if not in the normal way of being "born" back into the pattern like a normal human would be.

 

Is this an old theory, does it make since, any thoughts?

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I don't have the cites, but as I recall, Birgitte thinks that Gaidal Cain has been spun out of Tel'aran'rhiod by the Wheel, so he should be a baby now. Also, even though there aren't clear time rules in TAR, we know that Gaidal Cain isn't necessarily attractive which don't fit the descriptions of Mat either. So it doesn't seem that Mat could be him.

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Hi Brooke- welcome!

 

Great theory, but let me fill in some blanks for you that might actually answer some of the questions your having. It seems like you're dancing around the root of whats going on here, but may have missed a few things:

 

1. Birgitta and Gaidal Cain have been spun out of the wheel of time into the world and have pretty much always ended up as lovers, some way or another. When they die, they wait together in Telaranriod (spelled wrong) until they are born again, almost always with CG being reborn first. When she was cast out, physically, by Moghedian, this was the first time that GC had been reborn without her. Although she is in the 3rd age with us in this story, it was because of a direct action taken by Mog, and not because the pattern spun her out. Her concern is that because she ripped out of TAR (world of dreams), she may have screwed her connection that ties her to GC, and she may be fated/doomed to live or be reborn without ever being with GC again.

 

2. As far as Matt's memories go, thats also a complicated one. While we have been given some indicators that he is more than likely a soul that is tied to the Pattern and has been reborn throughout history, the memories that he has after coming out of the Ter'Angreal are not his memories....at least not all of them. While we're not 100% sure of whose they are, there is a lot of speculation. The most accepted theory is that he has gained the memories of every person that has entered this Ter'Angreal (or the Tower of Ghenji) and can see the memories that the snakes/foxes have seen through the eyes of those men.  We pretty much can see proof that these are not his memories because some of his past memories are from different men within the same time frame. (for example, he has two memories of fighting in the month long war against Menetheren before the Great City falls, and in both memories he is two different men getting killed)....obviously, he would never have had time to been reborn and have those memories of they were only his. However, it doesn't mean that one of them  weren't necessarily his....

 

More simply put, we do not yet know for sure what will happen with Birgitta and Gaidal Cain yet...hopefully after this age, they'll be reunited once more in TAR.....and we don't have any concrete evidence that would even indicate that any of Matt's memories are from CG, so I would also think that thats not the case.

 

Hope this helps fill in some blanks for you and answer some questions you may be having about this!

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Sorry but RJ has stated that the memories Mat is experiencing are the memory of other men who have ventured through the doorway into the land of the Finns.  However, you do bring up something that I hadn't considered before and that is the possibility that Gadial Cain was missing not because he has been born into the word but because he also has been ripped from TAR.  Of course there would have had to have been someone close a had to bond him as a warder as Elayne did for Brigette of he would not have survied long.  This would be interesting because it bring up so many questions like, how and why was he ripped form TAR and who bonded him?  One of the forsaken?  A member of the Black Ajah?  Or do I even dare ask, could Gadial Cain have killed Asmodean? (LOL)  The timing would be right.

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Also the Wheel would not have known that Briggete would be uncerimoniously been ripped out of her normal cycle. And Mat was hung at least one book prior to her incident so it would not have known to spin Gaidal out in such an odd manner. And I also thought that he had died both times and that Rand saved him both times. I cant remember weither or not he was still alive when rand preformed cpr on him in TSR.

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Guest Dreadlord

Gaidal Cain was spun out as he normally is-that is why he faded away. Birgitte explained it, did she not? Plus if Gaidal was ripped out like Birgitte we would have heard something. But if Gaidal was sput out in the normal fashion we wont see him in the books

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And I also thought that he had died both times and that Rand saved him both times. I cant remember weither or not he was still alive when rand preformed cpr on him in TSR.

 

RJ has confirmed that Mat did not die in Rhuidean. A quite unnecessary confirmation in my eyes, had Mat died, Rand would not have been able to bring him back just through cpr.

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But for some reason it just does not make since to have Gaidal born back into the world. He is one of the dead heros the horn summoned back yes? It doesn't seem right to have him be so young during such a monumental battle. Maybe the Wheel did not wish for Gaidal Cain incarnate to be at this battle, but that seems odd. If Brigitte is out and about in the world my head tells me that so is GC even if we do not know where yet.

 

As for the wheel not knowing that Brigitte would be unceremoniously ripped into the world, the wheel weaves and the wheel wills. Is it not possible that to keep these two together in the pattern she would have some how had to be ripped from the TAR? It may be a little mystery, but it's one that I think needs to be solved at some point.  :-\

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I think there are two issues. One regards Mat, and the 'did he didnt he die' question regarding Rhuidean (the answer to which is no, he didnt die) is to do with the huge distinction between someone's heart stopping beating / stopping breathing, and them actually dying. You have heard the term brain-dead? You are not truly dead until the brain stops working. Did you know that the brain continues to attempt to make connections for 7 minutes after you die? If the brain is still alive, you are not dead, and cpr can revive you.

 

The second issue regards Birgitte, and Cain. She is Elayne's warder now, and I think that this is going to be quite important in the latter throws of the story - if Cain were to be brought back into the world, that could possibly distract Birgitte, and she would be torn between Elayne (who only bonded her so as to give her some of her own strength, to recover after Moghedien spun her out), and the love of her life; Gaidal.

 

Personally I think Birgitte will die in the Last Battle, and be returned by the Creator to her status as Hero.

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Guest Dreadlord

QUOTE

But for some reason it just does not make since to have Gaidal born back into the world. He is one of the dead heros the horn summoned back yes? It doesn't seem right to have him be so young during such a monumental battle. Maybe the Wheel did not wish for Gaidal Cain incarnate to be at this battle, but that seems odd. If Brigitte is out and about in the world my head tells me that so is GC even if we do not know where yet

UNQUOTE

 

What if he was spun out to be a Hero after the events of Tarmon Gaidon? We know RJ had planned to write a spinoff set with Mat and Tuon after the Last Battle, so maybe he planned for Gaidal to earn his legends in that one.

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QUOTE

 

 

What if he was spun out to be a Hero after the events of Tarmon Gaidon? We know RJ had planned to write a spinoff set with Mat and Tuon after the Last Battle, so maybe he planned for Gaidal to earn his legends in that one.

 

I am also inclined to think that this is that case. It also lends more credibility to the whole "twins" theory with Rand and Elayne's children.

 

According to Niccola's fortelling, we know that the "battle is won but not finished" so, yes....i would like one large order of Heroes for the 4th age please!  ;D

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Dude, that would be so weird of the heroes of past were reborn to Rand and his little harem. But that would also mean that enough current day heroes would have to live threw the last battle to see the kids grow up.

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Regarding the Birgitte and Cain connection...Considering that Cain is still a toddler dripping from both ends, it is theoretically possible for Birgitte to die during TG, and be spun out in time to be able to hook up with Cain. She did say she is usually a bit younger than he is.

 

If their bond was not severed when she was ripped out, that is.

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Considering the Pattern repeats itself, the Heroes of the Horn will have to be 're-added to the pool' at one point or another. Maybe what happened isn't that Moghedien tore Birgitte out, but that this was destined to happen for her. That this is the One Life that had gotten her added to the numbers of the Heroes in the first place?

 

For example, take Arthur Hawkwing. He fought and defeated Guaire Amalasan's forces, did all those heroic things and such, and that had gotten him added to the Heroes. Once every cycle, i believe the Heroes have to 'renew their contracts', so to speak, as that is the very nature of the Pattern.

 

Well, that and my two cents, anyway.

 

-----

 

As for Birgitte? Judging by her taste in men, she'd probably start dating Uno. Though i find it more likely that she'll die at or after TG after some Act of Epic Heroism, adding her to the Hunters and spinning her out almost immediately after.

 

Reflecting on that, it could very well be the reason why Cain is always older than Birgitte is every time the Pattern spins them out. Hmm...

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Regarding the Birgitte and Cain connection...Considering that Cain is still a toddler dripping from both ends, it is theoretically possible for Birgitte to die during TG, and be spun out in time to be able to hook up with Cain. She did say she is usually a bit younger than he is.

 

If their bond was not severed when she was ripped out, that is.

 

great call Maj...also supported by the fact that he is almost always spun out first, therefore almost always older.

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Okay, I reread book 2 and moved on to book 3. It really has been so long since I've read these I've forgotten so much. I couldn't find my book 1 so some one please correct me if I'm mistaken. Mat's first "battle flashback" that was not his was immediately following his healing in the White Tower of book three. During the healing and seperation from the Shadar Logoth dagger he spoke a lot of the old tongue and then when he first woke up in his own room he had a flash back of him leading mean into battle with a river on one flank and a ...marsh...(I don't think it was a marsh but something like that) on the other. And in his flash back he said "time to roll the dice." Is this the first time that Mat said that. A lot of things that happen in this book with Mat right after the healing has so many parallels to Rand. So maybe the Finns did put some of those memories in his head, but some of them I think are his past lives memories, similar to how LTT is part of Rands past that he is consciencely aware of. Mat is a puzzle to me. I don't know why, I just feel like I've got to crack that puzzle. I'll keep reading and see what I can find I guess.

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I think Olver is Cain reborn; I'm pretty sure that it was said time runs differently in the dream world, so that Cain could have been reborn in the "real" world a few years before his dream world self was seen by the main characters. 

 

As for Birgitte dying in the last battle and being reborn younger than Cain again, that sounds likely.

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Guest Dreadlord

Olver can't be Cain. The reason is that Cain was spun out after the main story started (can't remember in which book, but we saw it. It has happened) but Olver is about 8?? maybe abit older. When he was spun out Cain will have been born that moment I think, but Olver would already be as old as he is, if you get what I mean. Cain won't be in the main story, or if he will he will be a baby

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On the other hand, Min said Cain was 'both ten years older and ten years younger' than Birgitte according to what she told her.

 

Meaning, that in order to guesstimate how old Cain would be, we'd simply have to take ten years off of Birgitte's 'age'. This would be around the same age Olver is.

 

Tel'aran'rhiod touches the whole of the Pattern, and is thus timeless by definition as it is past, present and future rolled into one. Sure, Cain disappeared to be spun out during one of the Books, but they never said when he was spun out.

 

It could also very well be that the Heroes aren't physically born, but rather 'awaken' in the soul of a person that has already been born. I think this is what Moghedien did, forcing Birgitte to be reborn in the flesh. She was dying because unlike other times, there was no body to support her spirit, which is why she needed the Bond to survive.

 

Again, this is all just theorising on my behalf, but i believe people are still thinking too linear about events in Tel'aran'rhiod.

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