Something Semirhage Said

[Guest Dreadlord]

Its just before Dumais Wells in Lord of Chaos, after Rand is captured and shielded when he is being transported to Tar Valon. He is trying to figure out a way to break the shield, and Lews Therin keeps struggling for Saidin as well, Rand screams at LTT "For once, work with me!" and Lews shouts back "No, you work with me!" Thats the first time Lews actually replied to something Rand said. Many, many times before that Lews said things in response to Rands thoughts as if he were real though

[wvlr]

I really don't think that the voice in Rand's head is "Real".    It is a construct that Rand uses to explain his memories from LTT.    That construct is one of many signs of his insanity.

 

Semi knows about the link from the assorted Forsaken discussions and Lanfear's comments and she probably knows about AoL occurances of this affliction.    She may or may not be an expert on it.  But she knows enough to know that it bothers Rand and if she can feed his paranoia about it, it gives her a tool to try to manipulate him.  She is an expert at such manipulations.

[Guest Dreadlord]

There is enough evidence for me personally to believe the voice is real. It fits too well with everything else.

[wvlr]

There is enough evidence for me personally to believe the voice is real. It fits too well with everything else.

 

I disagree, if it was real, Rand would be able to have intelligent conversations with it.    Such as Develop plans together and even possibly develop a body sharing plan where they are not "fighting" each other all the time.    They do not.    All the examples we have of the "LTT Voice" and actions are things that "Rand" himself might think and do.

 

Before the "Voice" developed Rand caught himself saying things that LTT might say because he had LTT memories in his head.    Rand did not like that and "Developed" the voice in his head to help him mentally deal with his paranoia about his LTT memories.    As time has gone on Rand has given this "construct" more and more power, to the point that now it is even using the Power.    But there has been nothing that has come from the construct that was not a reflection of Rand OR an actual "Memory" from his past life.

[xander]

Matt was speaking in the Old Tongue while they were seperating him from the dagger.  He was leading troops in battle.  That, I think, is the first time we hear the "Foreward the Heart Guard" as he leads his calvary into battle.  He hadn't been through the doorway yet.

 

He may have spoken in the Old Tongue sooner than that.  I think he said some stuff while they were looking for the horn but I cant remember for sure.

[trakand_01]

I dont want to pull your theory apart too much, but with Mat, it was actually after he went through the doorway in Rhuidean that he got the memories. He went to the world of the Finns and they asked him what he wanted, he said he wanted the holes in his memory filling. So they filled them, but with other people's memories. It is important to remember that the memories are not MAT's memories, nor are they his past lives (we don't know if he's had any); they are quite literally other men's memories, in his head.

 

He may have spoke the Old Tongue in book one for the first time (I started rereading again at book two because book one is packed away with most of my belongings at the moment), but I know for a fact that you are wrong about the memories. I literally just reread book two and three, and I promise you, the first full length memorie of much significance (as long as there is not one in the first book) is right after he gets seperated from the SL dagger in the White Tower. It's the first time I can think of him saying, in a memory or as himself, "Time to roll the dice." I'll go back and look up the page number if you'd like.

 

 

 

If you feel you want to, go ahead. For reference though, have a read at these;

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mat_Cauthon

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/characters/m/mat.html

 

When he went through the redstone doorway in Rhuidean (i believe the same one Moiraine and Lanfear later disappear through, after Rand has it transported from Rhuidean) and this time saw the Eelfinn (previously he had seen the Aelfinn), he wasted his wishes and had the holes in his memory filled, along with being freed from AS channeling (the medallion) and being returned to Rhuidean, which he was; Rand found him hung, and resuscitated him.

 

He had memories linked to the Old Tongue which he muttered during his Healing after he woke up, but this seems to be linked to the dagger or the Horn, and is seperate from the fuller 'memories' which he unwittingly asked for when he visited the Eelfinn.

 

The picky details aside however, my basic point was that where you had suggested that they were memories from Mat's past lives, they are not: - that we are aware of, Mat has had no past lives; they are the memories of other men, which the Eelfinn stuffed into his head at his (innocent) request. He states himself several times "these other men's memories in my head".

 

Mat first speaks the Old Tongue in Chapter 18 of tEotW, when they are fighting Trollocs. This is backed up in the WoT thread i've listed above. The second time is, quite rightly, when he is being healed. When he comes from the doorway in Rhuidean, he is fluid and conscious about speaking the OT, rather than the unconscious way in which he spoke it previously.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Without jumping into the primary discussion too much, let me just re-emphasize one point many of us continually forget:

 

Originally this series was intended to be a Trilogy.  

 

It was only after the success of tEotW that it was decided to expand beyond three books.  Thus, many things that were originally meant to be explained in one (condensed) fashion, instead have come to be explained in a more expanded fashion far different from what Jordan originally intended when tEotW was written.

 

A host of additional characters have been created to flesh-out the expanded storyline.  LTT as a voice in Rand's head, and the whole series of interactions Rand has with the LTT persona is merely one of those.  Mat's recitation of the OT and how that may have come about are another.

 

Also, for the record, insanity is a legal concept defined as an inability to distinguish right from wrong.  Additionally, no person ( real or fictional ) who has ever existed has been entirely free from quirks, neuroses, and just plain weirdness.  Rand has some hitches in his git-along.  So does everybody else ( including all on this forum), so, ya'll are arguing over the equivalent of "how green is 'green'."

[trakand_01]

Christ, how on EARTH did he think he could finish it in 2 more books after tEotW?! ???

[Bob T Dwarf]

He started out thinking it would be three.  Then it became five.  Then six.  Sometime after that he just kept saying, "I'll wrap it all up just as quickly as I can."

 

In many ways, by expanding the story out as far as he did, he created a situation where, "ya can't get there from here." At least not without a lot more of the kind of two line baldness with which Semirhage disposed of the entire Seanchan heirarchy with the exception of Tuon.

[trakand_01]

He started out thinking it would be three.  Then it became five.  Then six.  Sometime after that he just kept saying, "I'll wrap it all up just as quickly as I can."

 

 

I can imagine a point somewhere towards the end of book 7 where he sits there, at his writing desk. He looks over his notes, shakes his head. "Harriet?" he shouts. "Yes?" she replies. "I think we're going to need some more paper, and pens. Lots and lots of pens. I seem to have sent Mat to Ebou Dar..."

[Bob T Dwarf]

:) ;)

 

 

[bRANDan]

I literally just reread book two and three, and I promise you, the first full length memorie of much significance (as long as there is not one in the first book) is right after he gets seperated from the SL dagger in the White Tower.

 

Yep, I remember it. I think that of all the memories he has this is probably the only one that is from his past life.

 

I also like the idea of LTT as a construct of Rand's mind. We know the Taint just magnifies mental problems and jumpstarts problems that were dormant, so it makes sense that LTT could just be Rand's schizophrenic mind. Nothing

I have seen can conclusively say LTT is a real voice. It could be possible that in the end Semi's tactic may backfire and instead cause Rand to realize that the LTT voice is false, kind of like Fight Club.

[Luckers]

Except that LTT has conclusively been seen to be a real voice. He has knowledge, opinions and positions that we can correlate seperate from Rand--and things that Rand in context has no way of knowing.

[Majsju]

Not only knowledge, in WH we see Rand use LTTs ability to draw, something Rand has never been able to do. And using that kind of skills most definitly does not come with the package if it would just be a matter of advanced schizophrenia.

[Brooke]

I literally just reread book two and three, and I promise you, the first full length memorie of much significance (as long as there is not one in the first book) is right after he gets seperated from the SL dagger in the White Tower.

 

Yep, I remember it. I think that of all the memories he has this is probably the only one that is from his past life.

 

 

Unfortunately we have no way to prove that it's the only one from his past lives. The fact that this battle memory showed threw so strongly, and that his battle prowess (assuming he wasn't always that good of a fighter from what his father had taught him back home) increased after the healing it really have no way of saying which of the old memories are his and which are from other people.

 

When he comes from the doorway in Rhuidean, he is fluid and conscious about speaking the OT, rather than the unconscious way in which he spoke it previously.

 

Mat spoke the old tongue in certain situations after that healing but didn't realize he had spoke it, which means he understood it in his own head but he didn't know the difference (much like Rand doing things without realizing what he was doing). The fact that he spoke it more fluently after his trip to the Finns in Rhuidean only means that the new memories he received had people speaking the tongue as well making Mat more capable of of speaking it or more able to understand what he was doing. The mere fact that he has more memories, and the fact that these memories are much more conscience and forthcoming than the ones he had of what is most likely his own past life account for the change in speaking the Old Tongue. The fact that he did it spontaneously before the healing, and I believe before contact with the dagger, and much more often aftwards tells me it has to be his. It was in him before anything happened and it first started when he first into what was probably his first real bit of combat. It is a reasonable conclusion to make. You have to forget about the doorway for a minute. You have to go back to before the Finns. Weed out what you believe is not Mat and get to what is just Mat with no influence of the OP or SL. He spoke the Old Tongue on his one of a land long dead and forgotten in that area. Now what happened next? You can say that by the help of the influence of SL, or by the OP helping to pull it out of him during the healing, or maybe just from becoming stronger and coming more into his own threw what had happened more of that came out of him before he ever new Rhuidean existed.

 

What does this have to do with Rand and his sanity? Rand is/was exactly the same way. His experience and coming to the same point as Mat was much more dramatic and maybe a little slower. Where Mat had a full memorie of his own in book 3 Rand still might have only been catching glimpses of what was another's memories in book 4. Be it of glimpses of the how to use the OP or when Lanfear had him in his bed chambers and he told her that she only loved power (LTT's memories not his). Mat was consumed by the fact he was missing memories so probably could recognize a memorie from some one else. Rand was consumed with other things so he didn't really start thinking about what might be inside him until much later, he didn't realize he was having a dead man's memories until after he'd been having them for quite some time.

 

If you're already afriad that you are going mad then one way to deal with it would be to put a voice to the memories.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Good point Majsju.

 

Also, it seems odd to me that, if LTT is really a construct of Rands mind, how does the mind keep coming up with trick after trick with the One Power, things about the Forsaken, about the Dark One, and about Ilyena? If the voice isn't real how can Rand do the things Lews Therin tells him about? Rand may have been able to figure out how to untie a tied off weave if Lews hadn't told him, but what about invisibility? Rand didn't even know invisibility was possible until Lews Therin told him how.

 

And how would one explain the situations where Lews Therin takes over and starts channelling? Rand is channeling one minute, struggles to snatch Saidin from himself, and starts doing things he didn't know about? Rand notes, in Kod when Lews starts channeling, that he tries to reach Saidin but Lews Therin is already there. So, was that Rand in Rands way? Rand coudln't channel, because he was already channeling? His reaction would be different, I think.

 

Rand seems to get a firm grip on himself in the later books. Not 100% as we all know, but I would have thought that if the Lews Therin wasn't real he would know by now

[Bob T Dwarf]

LTT is real enough.

 

Rand's inability ( or unwillingness ) to have complete and fruitful conversations with LTT seems to spring from his own fear of going 'mad' ( whatever that is really supposed to mean in this context ) and the fact that the LTT persona is still 'around the bend' in part.

 

It takes two to tango.  This is a situation where neither dancer is willing to admit that the other is really there.  LTT fears that 'Rand' is  voice in his head and further evidence of his own 'madness'.  So far neither has been willing to man-up and say, "OK, maybe I'm nuts. and maybe I'm not, but I still have a big problem to solve, so how can I most productively go about it."

[mralexcummings]

I think he should've balefired Semirhage and got his hand back, also not Cadsuane or whatever her name is said the same thing about voices when he first met her. She asked him if he was hearing them and went on a speech.

[wvlr]

Also, it seems odd to me that, if LTT is really a construct of Rands mind, how does the mind keep coming up with trick after trick with the One Power, things about the Forsaken, about the Dark One, and about Ilyena? If the voice isn't real how can Rand do the things Lews Therin tells him about? Rand may have been able to figure out how to untie a tied off weave if Lews hadn't told him, but what about invisibility? Rand didn't even know invisibility was possible until Lews Therin told him how.

 

Rand obviously has LTT's memories.    In part or in full - I am not sure.   It is those memories that allow Rand to do new tricks with the One Power and even to Draw.   The same with his memories about the Forsaken.

 

 

 

 

And how would one explain the situations where Lews Therin takes over and starts channelling? Rand is channeling one minute, struggles to snatch Saidin from himself, and starts doing things he didn't know about? Rand notes, in Kod when Lews starts channeling, that he tries to reach Saidin but Lews Therin is already there. So, was that Rand in Rands way? Rand coudln't channel, because he was already channeling? His reaction would be different, I think.

 

We know for a fact that Rand's LTT memories are real memories because they have been confirmed in advertently by the Forsaken.    He recognized Semi and it was Semi.     He also said several things that Asmo recognized.    

 

Beyond that - we know nothing for sure, either way, as to wheather the LTT personna is real or a construct.

 

 

In my view, LTT's voice and attempts to gain control are just a sign of Rand's psychosis.    He is giving the construct LTT more and more power - in effect developing a dual personality.    This is just a sign that his insanity is getting worse and worse.

 

The fact that he has LTTs memories in his head and is able to allocate those memories to a portion of his brain/the LTT personality construct makes it SEEM to be more than a dual personality, and appear to be real.

 

 

 

Edited to add:

 

If LTT's voice and actions are real, then where is Rand's insanity?    I think that RJ confirmed that Rand is insane.    If Rand's body actually contains two real people/personalities, instead of one real and one construct then how does this qualify as insanity?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Again, "insanity" is being used very loosely here.  Jordan was guilty of that also.  If you listen to Isabel's tapes, you'll hear him say that he didn't consider Rand to be entirely "sane" anymore.

 

The "madness" or "insanity" or whatever other loose term you choose to use to describe Rand's state-of-mind, isn't a matter of the LTT voice and face alone, but also the manner in which he interacts with those around him and approaches the challenges he faces.

 

In his defense, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that there aren't people who are out to get you.  Rand's problem is that he can't sort out who are the real threats.  He can't trust anyone enough to let them close enough to be of any real help to him.  The way he is approaching TG is objectively irrational, but subjectively understandable.  He is still governed by his fears.

 

He needs to accept that, "in order to live you must die."  Or, at least, be willing to.

[wvlr]

Again, "insanity" is being used very loosely here.  Jordan was guilty of that also.  If you listen to Isabel's tapes, you'll hear him say that he didn't consider Rand to be entirely "sane" anymore.

 

The "madness" or "insanity" or whatever other loose term you choose to use to describe Rand's state-of-mind, isn't a matter of the LTT voice and face alone, but also the manner in which he interacts with those around him and approaches the challenges he faces.

 

In his defense, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that there aren't people who are out to get you.  Rand's problem is that he can't sort out who are the real threats.  He can't trust anyone enough to let them close enough to be of any real help to him.  The way he is approaching TG is objectively irrational, but subjectively understandable.  He is still governed by his fears.

 

He needs to accept that, "in order to live you must die."  Or, at least, be willing to.

 

I disagree with much of what you say here.    I do not think that he is significantly paranoid at all, and I do not think that his actions toward TG are all that irrational.    Actually they seem pretty rational to me and he seems quite able and willing to make the necessary changes to his plans to meet the realities of the situation.  ie He is trying to make a truce with the Seanchan who he really does not like, but he sees that it is necesary and he now realizes that he is not able to make a "perfect world" prior to TG.  He clearly acknologes that all he is going to be able to do is get the world through TG then let it take care of itself.

 

All of this seems to be very rational to me.

 

Is he very sparing in his trust?    Yes!    With good reason!    That does not make him paranoid - it is just common sense.    He can not afford to overly trust people without first checking them out and he does not even have time to check them out.    As a result he has a certian few people he trusts completely, others he trusts a little and the vast majority that he deals with but is not certian that he can trust them.

 

What is the problem with that!    That is the reality of his situation.

 

So if he has two real people in his one body and he is doing all this other stuff quite reasonably - where is the insanity?   

 

It it just because he gets a little angry every now and then because people seem to be uncooperative in preparing for the End of the World?

 

Sorry, I see nothing insane about his behavior if that is the case considering that he and pretty much he alone, has the entire burden of TG on his back.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I seem to have stated my point poorly since you missed most of it.

 

I don't think he's "insane" either.

 

I do, however, think he is being irrational.  Counter to your assertion, there is no one he trusts "completely."

 

The stipulation ( via Prophesy etc. ) is that he must be present at TG in order for the Light to prevail.  Nowhere is it mandated that he has to do everything himself.  Yet, everything is exactly what he is attempting to do.  All by himself.  No sharing of the burden.  No allowing anyone else to bear any of the cost if he can avoid it.  His whole approach is one more of avoidance than of acceptance.  Understandable, the costs will be horrendous, but those costs will be more bearable for all if they are entered into willingly rather than enforced by unseen circumstance.

 

In some ways he assumes too much.  In others, he asks too little.

 

No approach he takes can ever be perfect, but the one he has chosen is particularly unproductive.  Both for himself and for everyone else in his world.

 

Edit:

Rather than finding the strength to face the truth of his reality, and soldier on in spite of it, he keeps trying to find the hardness to ignore the costs already incurred and those yet to come.

 

For instance, rather than coordinate with the Maidens and plan some of his tactics around how they can be employed to greatest effect and least cost, the most he's been able to do is take Pilate's approach and wash his hands of what they choose to do.  Very unproductive.  Especially for the Maidens.  It doesn't do his own mental state any good either.

 

"...to live, you must die", can be interpreted in any number of ways.  One context might be, "In order to prevail you must cease to be the person you are at this moment and grow to become one who will most effectively employ all of the tools at his disposal.  No matter what those tools are."

 

In many very important ways, Rand is still a befuddled farm kid struggling to come to terms with, "Why me?", "Why now?", and "Why them?"

 

He needs to grow up.

[wvlr]

Bob,

 

I think that you are being a little too hard on him.    He has had what 2-3 years or maybe 4 MAX to go from "Sheepherd" to Savior of the World with very little training.  And he certianally was not trained from birth.

 

Meanwhile, the world is behaving like it is nearly "oblivious" to the danger that is fast approaching.    Everyone knows that the Dragon has been "Reborn" and by the prophacies they should know what that means.    The same with the fall of Tear.    They also have seen the strange weather for at least two years and there have been "bubbles of evil" popping up all over the place.    Not to mention all the Shadowspawn that has been seen from the Blight all the way to Tear.

 

So what is the world doing to help the DR prepare for this fateful event?    They are fighting and squabbling all over the place.    They should be sending emisaries to the DR telling him that they are behind him all the way!    Instead he has had to conquer almost every one to turn them to the cause.

 

It is not Rand that is crazy - it is the whole World!!!!!

 

[bRANDan]

Except that LTT has conclusively been seen to be a real voice. He has knowledge, opinions and positions that we can correlate seperate from Rand--and things that Rand in context has no way of knowing.

Not only knowledge, in WH we see Rand use LTTs ability to draw, something Rand has never been able to do. And using that kind of skills most definitly does not come with the package if it would just be a matter of advanced schizophrenia.

 

I think you both misunderstood me. I know the memories are real, and the abilities he has gained. But the voice of LTT could be just Rand's coping mechanism, maybe partially caused by the Taint. He could be drawing from the actual memories and just use LTT's "voice" as a way to cope. The voice has not said anything that shows an ability to solve Rand's current problems. Breaking the shield at Dumaii's Wells was from LTT memories whereas all of the new problems, like the removal of the Taint, came from Rand. Rand thought up the Cleansing, LTT had nothing to do with that. To me LTT's voice has not done any problem solving, either with TG, the Prophecies, the Seanchan, the Taint, etc. The only info the voice has ever given Rand has been things that would have been from LTT's memories, which Rand really has.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Of course I'm "being hard on him."

 

This isn't Joe Blow from down the street.  Rand al'Thor is a mythic Hero ( with a very Capital H ) from fantasy literature. 

 

The very least he should be capable of is growing up.

 

bRANDan:

 

I think you're having a little trouble separating reality from fantasy.  In the real world ( if that's what this one is... there are philosophers who argue differently ) a 'voice' in someone's head is, to put it most charitably, a coping mechanism.

 

This is Randland.  A hitherto obscure place in the multiverse that is Fantasyland.  People truly do get reborn here.  There is an entity that transmigrates souls here.  LTT is a real persona that shares a consciousness with Rand al'Thor here.

 

Don't let 'reality' get in the way of a good yarn.