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Angreal


aevogt
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I thought this deserved its own thread rather than continue hijacking the other one.

 

To this point, no one has made an Angreal and I'm pretty sure this is why. 

 

A woman is required to make a male attuned angreal and vice versa.

 

None of the Chosen, after two years of freedom, have made their own Angreal.  One would assume that as least one of the 13 would have at least a rudimentary knowledge of how to do so.  Lanfear was an OP researcher after all.  To say she wouldn't have a clue how to do this is beyond belief.  Aginor was a scientist, all right biologist, but you would think he'd at least have a general idea in the same way most physicists have at least a rudimentary knowledge of chemistry. 

 

There could be other reasons.  Perhaps making an angreal requires a highly technical factory, akin to making a microchip for instance.  This however, is not the case for ter'angreal.  Elayne makes them on the fly.  Just channeling and the base materials.  I doubt it's that different.  Cuendillar is made in a tent.

 

If women after the breaking were constantly under threat, as appears to be the case based on some of the artifacts recently discovered, if they had the ability to make angreal and gain they upper hand over the men going insane at every hand, they would have.  The reason they didn’t, and that the ability was lost also point to the opposite sex theory.

 

If any of the Chosen, powerful AoL channelers that they were, could make one for themselves, they would have by now.  That they haven't sort of demands a reason.  That reason is that a woman cannot make a female attuned angreal.  Since they don’t trust each other, it stands to reason that none of them would even consider making one for one of their opposite sex counterparts.  Even the trio of Mesaana,( a teacher) Semi (a doctor) and Demandred (a general) have shown no indication they have angreal of their own.  If she had, Semi would have crushed Cadsuane like a bug and likely blown a lot more off Rand than his hand. 

 

We've even got evidence from the books, of a sort (and very much open to interpretation).  Callandor, a male sa'angreal appears to have been made by a circle of women.  (This also lends some credence to my theory that the more powerful the channeler, the more powerful the objects they can make.)  A circle made Callandor and it is indeed,  very powerful.  These women appear to have made it as a result of the foretelling, specifically for Rand - The Dragon Reborn.  They indicate that male help will be required to make the Eye of the world, and quite probably the ward in the Heart of the Stone, but nothing about whether they assisted in its manufacture.

 

Anyhow that’s what I think.  It took 11 books to find out why none of the Chosen had sent Trollocs through Gateways; this is probably something RJ was holding out on until the last.

 

 

 

 

TSR Chpt 26. 

 

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Guest Dreadlord

QUOTE

We've even got evidence from the books, of a sort (and very much open to interpretation).  Callandor, a male sa'angreal appears to have been made by a circle of women.  (This also lends some credence to my theory that the more powerful the channeler, the more powerful the objects they can make.)  A circle made Callandor and it is indeed,  very powerful.  These women appear to have made it as a result of the foretelling, specifically for Rand - The Dragon Reborn.  They indicate that male help will be required to make the Eye of the world, and quite probably the ward in the Heart of the Stone, but nothing about whether they assisted in its manufacture

UNQUOTE

 

Also, it is mentioned that Callandor is safe when the user is in a circle which is controlled by a woman, if I remember correctly. An interesting theory you have here Aevogt

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I personally agree, and more than such feel that cross-gender creation is the basis of creating sa'angreal, and that the power limits on that had to do with the fact that the more powerful the sa'angreal, the more power drawn from the same powersource and as such the more uncontrollable...

 

Like, the reason Callandor was unstable is because too much saidin was involved in its making... whats attempting to contain saidin is saidin and as such it blurs, and is dangerous. That is why, to my mind, access keys were needed to make the Choedan Kal.

 

We've even got evidence from the books, of a sort (and very much open to interpretation).  Callandor, a male sa'angreal appears to have been made by a circle of women.  (This also lends some credence to my theory that the more powerful the channeler, the more powerful the objects they can make.)  A circle made Callandor and it is indeed,  very powerful.  These women appear to have made it as a result of the foretelling, specifically for Rand - The Dragon Reborn.  They indicate that male help will be required to make the Eye of the world, and quite probably the ward in the Heart of the Stone, but nothing about whether they assisted in its manufacture.

 

Unfotunately not true. Callandor was made during the War of the Shadow by an undisclosed group or individual. The group of women you mean are Solinda, Deindre and a few others. They were acting upon Deindre's foretelling (now known as the Karetheon Cycle) in order to set things up for the Dragon, but they didn't create Callandor.

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    Just a thought on maybe why the chosen never created angreal or would use it if a male created one for the women is the taint on Saidin. Would you trust an angreal made by someone with the taint? As for the women making them for the Men, because of Jealousy, would you want to make the male chosen any stronger if they might turn it against you?

 

    To try to back up my thought and please correct me if I'm wrong on this, but was Callandor made before the Breaking? If it was made after than could the taint have made it flawed in some way also?

 

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  Just a thought on maybe why the chosen never created angreal or would use it if a male created one for the women is the taint on Saidin. Would you trust an angreal made by someone with the taint? As for the women making them for the Men, because of Jealousy, would you want to make the male chosen any stronger if they might turn it against you?

 

Male Chosen are protected from the Taint. I would assume if they created an object with the Saidin it would be safe from the Taint as well.

 

Good theory though, I would agree.

 

YK.

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Well, I think I can provide a fairly plausible alternative explanation for a lack of angreal among the Chosen. Simply, it is a matter of Talent. If creating angreal, like the creation on Cuendillar or ter'angreal, requires people to have a Talent for making them, then it could be as simple as none of the Chosen actually have that Talent. Of course, it could also be a combination of both - they don't have the Talent, and even if they did they wouldn't make angreal because they would have to make them for the opposite sex. If the Talent for making angreal were the same Talent as for making ter'angreal, is there any mention of any of the Chosen being able to make ter'angreal?

 

Also, it is mentioned that Callandor is safe when the user is in a circle which is controlled by a woman, if I remember correctly.
Well, as the Taint is gone (and thus can no longer induce the madness in those using Callandor), then the only danger Callandor poses to the user is the risk of drawing too much, and any link should be able to prevent that, whether controlled by man or woman, as buffers against drawing too much are something present in all links.
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Once the weave for making Cuendillar was rediscovered, Egwene points out that among the Salidar rebels camped outside Tar Valon, there are 9 sisters, 2 accepted and two dozen novices that can make the weave.  Hardly a rare talent.  (You'll search a lot longer for someone who can bat.400.)  This out of some 400 Aes Sedai, 20 or so Accepted and several hundred Novices.  So say roughly 2 percent of female channelers have the strenght to spin this weave.  Strength in Earth is the key to that and since that is not a typical female strength, it's safe to say that more men, possibly a great many more, would have that ability. 

 

What I'll accept is that so far, apparently no one has shown Elayne's talent for making Ter Angreal, though she has shown everyone in Salidar, and that does appear to be directly related to raw strength. 

 

Of 13 surviving chosen from the AoL, it is just too easy to say none of them know how to do it as the reason.  When in this entire series, has something that seemes too easy, actually been as easy as it appeared?  RJ didn't really write like that.

 

One scene from TSR strikes me as relevent.  The Aea Sedai, the one who encounters the Aiel wagons in Rands vision through the columns, heals the sick and takes some of the Sa'angreal.  She took them because she didn't have any.

 

Now I'll admit, we don't know how common these things were before the Breaking, but the Aiel that left Paaran Disen, where the Hall of the Servents sat, couldn't have had more than a fraction and they had hundreds, perhaps thousands, of wagons full of them.  Considering the number of artifacts of the Power that survived the breaking, outside of what was hidden in Rhuidean, there must have been quite a few for any to have survived the Breaking, the Trolloc Wars and the War of the 100 years over 3000 years of human decline.

 

Back to that lone AS.  SHe didn't have one before encountering the wagons and there are only two possible reasons.  She didn't know how to make one, or couldn't.  And those are two very different things.

 

 

 

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Of 13 surviving chosen from the AoL, it is just too easy to say none of them know how to do it as the reason.  When in this entire series, has something that seemes too easy, actually been as easy as it appeared?  RJ didn't really write like that.
But that is not what I am saying. I am saying that they may know how, they just can't. Which is not too dissimilar from your theory, that they know how but won't make them, because they need to make them for members of the opposite sex and they don't trust enough.

 

Back to that lone AS.  SHe didn't have one before encountering the wagons and there are only two possible reasons.  She didn't know how to make one, or couldn't.  And those are two very different things.
And yet we are both saying that she couldn't.

 

Now, we have seen that Talents are required to perform some tasks - Healing, for example, or making ter'angreal. If one lacks the Talent, then while one may know they weave it will not do one any good. My theory is far from incompatible with RJ's writings. So it goes back to how rare is this Talent? I don't see it as unreasonable to assume that none of these 13 have a Talent that may not be all that common.

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Guest Dreadlord

QUOTE

Well, as the Taint is gone (and thus can no longer induce the madness in those using Callandor), then the only danger Callandor poses to the user is the risk of drawing too much, and any link should be able to prevent that, whether controlled by man or woman, as buffers against drawing too much are something present in all links.

UNQUOTE

 

Im sure Cadsuane says it magnifies the effects of the Taint, which means it is still flawed to anyone who has been affected by the Taint-madness. Of course, if someone who learned to channel after the Cleansing then they would be fine if I am right on this.

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But since men are now drawing clean saidin, there is no taint to magnify.  Callandor does not intensify the effects of any madness they may be suffering.  Someone mentioned drawing too much and that is the only danger left for using Callandor

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Guest Dreadlord

OK I may have been wrong, but I have a question; when Rand is attacked by the Seanchan when hes with Bashere, Rand & Lews Therin get all high and mighty "You cannot strike at me! I am the Dragon Reborn!" "You cannot defeat me! I am the Lord of the Morning!" Rand lashes out with Callandor, using lightening and his mind goes ait wild like it does sometimes. He is snapped out of his reverie when Bashere knocks him off his horse, and Rand realises that the lightening he wove wasnt just striking at the Seanchan but it was striking in every direction from Rand as well.

 

Callandor made that happen, it sent him abit loopy. But was this before the Cleansing, or after? If it was after then I am right, if it as before then I am wrong

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Guest durram laddel cham

I remember cadsuane also saying that it gives some sort of wildness while using callandor, some sort sort of incanity thinking you can do anything ( 1 rand trying to save the little girl in TSR and 2 and going crazy on the Seanchans, though that could have been the taint).

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Callandor made that happen, it sent him abit loopy. But was this before the Cleansing, or after? If it was after then I am right, if it as before then I am wrong

 

The Ash'aman vs. Seanchan battle where Rand killed Adley was in PoD.  The taint was cleaned in WH.  I don't think we've seen Callandor used since the taint was cleaned.

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"It is flawed," she replied curtly, "lacking the buffer that makes other sa'angreal safe to use. And it apparently magnifies the taint, inducing wildness of the mind. So long as a man is using it, anyway. The only safe way for you to use The Sword That Is Not a Sword, the only way to use it without the risk of killing yourself, or trying to do the Light alone knows what insanity, is linked with two women, and one of them guiding the flows." -Cadsuane, The Path of Daggers, Chapter 27: The Bargain
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Well somebody already beat me to it but I've always assumed that the reason the Forsaken didn't make angreal for themselves is because they didn't have the talent, and that the talent was quite rare.

 

I don't think it's fair to relate the making of Cuendillar to making Angreal, safer to link it with making ter'angreal, and the ONLY person we've encountered in the books that can do that so far is Elayne. There may have been so many ter'angreal in Rhuidean etc. because back in the AoL the small number of AS who had the talent had teachings and knew what they were doing, they could probably have pumped the things out for hundreds/thousands of years.

 

I'm not saying I don't disagree that only a male chaneller can make a female angreal and vice versa, as to that I'm still unswayed, just nitpicking at some reasoning. =)

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I don't think it's fair to relate the making of Cuendillar to making Angreal, safer to link it with making ter'angreal, and the ONLY person we've encountered in the books that can do that so far is Elayne.

 

There are apparently a fair few Seanchan damane with the ability, though its still rare enough that they get pampered because of it. Also Elayne finds three Aes Sedai who show signs of having the ability.

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One thing I just noticed and wanted to mention. Nynaeve has a angreal / ter'angreal / sa'angreal bracelet (sorry I dont know which it is, they confuse me!) which kind of has the same effect that Mat's medallion does - it 'armours' her. She mentions it in Far Madding, and we see it in action when she gives all her angreal to Alivia just before helping Rand cleanse the taint. Alivia wears it, and when the forsaken start to appear, she faces Cyndane, who fires at her but the web... unravels.

 

Surely if Elayne could make enough of these, the 'front lines' of the TG army would be Aes Sedai?

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Firstly, your getting two things confused. The armour ter'angreal she mentions in WH is literally a ter'angreal that creates armour out of air--a man could hit her with a sword and she wouldn't feel it. It's a ring too, by the way.

 

Beyond that she does have a seperate ter'angreal that breaks flows of the power much like Mat's. Cadsuane has one too. The issue with duplicating them is that Elayne shows a need to study it with the power involved, and the power can't touch it. I imagine creating them would require a true, seperate intellectual understanding of the forces at work, not the sort of half-assed mimicry that Elayne uses.

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I don't think it's fair to relate the making of Cuendillar to making Angreal, safer to link it with making ter'angreal, and the ONLY person we've encountered in the books that can do that so far is Elayne.

 

There are apparently a fair few Seanchan damane with the ability, though its still rare enough that they get pampered because of it. Also Elayne finds three Aes Sedai who show signs of having the ability.

 

Yeah I actually just read that about the damane last night, going through TGH atm, and I was gonna post it as soon as I got home today, but you had to beat me to it!

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Guest Dreadlord

Just had a thought. Although it does seem that you can only make Angreal for the opposite gender, is it really possible considering a man channels Saidin and a woman channels Saidar? If a man was to make an angreal for a woman surely there would need to be a way for him to convert Saidin to Saidar in some way, otherwise it would be Saidin in tthe Angreal making it for men only? Iv only just thought of that now

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Unless the saidar / saidin creates some sort of conduit for the other, amplifies it somehow; perhaps that is the way an angreal works; the other half of the source is somehow woven to amplify the effects of it's brother. They repel each other, do they not? Maybe when a woman channels into a male-created angreal, the saidar bounces off / is reflected off of the saidin, and if it is in a tube of sorts, it could come to a kind of mirror effect, each reflection amplifying it more, to infinity (or as far as the angreal will allow).

 

After all the only way Rand could cleanse saidin was to push it through a tube of saidar, with Nynaeve lending the saidar.

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Guest Dreadlord

Just had a thought, after Nynaeve Healed Logain and then Leanne and Siuan. Nynaeve Healed them, by replacing the ability to channel. I am fairly sure that Damer Flynn also made the discovery. What if Nynaeve, Flynn and Elayne got together to use a combination of the Healing weave and the techniques Elayne uses for Ter'angreal, maybe they have what it takes between them to make an Angreal???

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