Elyas - His History?

[BrainFireBob]

Actually, Luckers, there is zero evidence the bond fades. Since linking doesn't, there's no reason to suppose the Warder bond does.

 

It is Elyas that can tell little more than that Rina is alive, because she's masking the bond. Distance also blurs the bond, but we have no evidence whatsoever that time tenuates it. If she quits masking, there is no reason to suppose she could not point straight in his direction.

 

And it was the Reds behind the problems when Elyas left, not the Green. The Green was not involved in the circumstances at all- aside from not chasing him.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Did he say the Aes Sedai thought he needed gentling?

[DemandredFO]

I was under the impression that Elyas taught Lan as one of the Malkeri companions that made it with Lan.  Maybe I'm wrong but Elyas is Malkeri maybe that's the reason Elyas was never released.

[Bazzles]

Did he say the Aes Sedai thought he needed gentling?

 

So it seems, refer to the quote I posted from TEotW last page.  ;D

[Luckers]

Actually, Luckers, there is zero evidence the bond fades. Since linking doesn't, there's no reason to suppose the Warder bond does.

 

It is Elyas that can tell little more than that Rina is alive, because she's masking the bond. Distance also blurs the bond, but we have no evidence whatsoever that time tenuates it. If she quits masking, there is no reason to suppose she could not point straight in his direction.

 

Yes, your quite correct--for some reason i always read that line as 'a fair number of years can fuzz the bond.' not 'a fair number can fuzz the bond.' Not sure why, lol.

 

 

In any case i still think its incredibly unlikely that the Green are waiting around for him to become the Wolf King. The way he left the Tower, the obscurity of that prophecy in Randland... I just don't see it.

 

I think I must have missed something here. Whats this about too-young sisters? And surely if someone was to bond a Wolfbrother they wouldnt have picked someone they were going to sweep them aside. Why would they sweep someone bonded to a Wolfbrother aside when the Tower reunites? And how did Rina know the tower would be broken as it is way back then? As far as I know there werent prophecies about the Tower being broken until after the main books started unless theres something in News Spring, which I havent read.

 

Information on the Too-Young Sitter Conspiracy can be found here. http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,13281.msg371356/topicseen.html#msg371356

 

As for the rest, Rina was selected to be a Sitter in order that she can politely be shoved aside for her Rebel counterpart. She was never selected to bond a Wolfbrother, because Elyas was not yet a Wolfbrother when she bonded him.

 

As for why they would sweep someone bonded to a Wolfbrother aside... why wouldn't they? It gives her no especial ability for the Hall, and they want nothing from Elyas in any case. It probably never even occured to them.

 

And Rina didn't know... it was Adelorna who was behind her getting raised Sitter. Why would she have needed to know?

 

And there was a prophecy about the Tower breaking--its in the Karetheon Cycle--the Unstained Tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign. Of course thats incredibly oblique, and wouldn't have helped anyway, so meh.

[BrainFireBob]

Why wouldn't they? The Wolf King prophecy is known, and if there's one area you'd expect the Greens to display scholarship, it's about the KC.

 

And how well-known are the Wolfbrothers? Few know of Perrin's gift. Elyas is well-known to Aes Sedai. Noam lost his mind and was a local curiosity. Elyas has heard rumors of perhaps a few others- but then again, they may be rumors of himself, or may stem from the wolves' fuzzy grasp of time.

 

I always suspected Moiraine only knew because Lan and Elyas became close for a time before Elyas gained the gift.

 

Recall, too, that those who recommend bonding the ta'veren seem to be Greens. If they thought they had a leash on one of the prophesied figures of the last battle, I could see them quite set-up over it.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Right ... so here's the accumulated info. on Elyas, shout if I've missed something:

 

1. He was bonded to Rina, a Green, along with a least one other Warder (there were 2 men mentioned in New Spring).

2. He was already bonded when Moiraine was an Accepted, (shortly before she was raised). -- I'm sure someone can do a vague age range based on that.

3. He fled when his Wolfbrotherness starting making him want to pee on trees.

4. Aes Sedai (possibly/probably the Reds) wanted to Gentle him as they felt the power was linked to the OP.

5. It's possible they also felt he could have been a DF.

6. He had to kill at least 2 ("a couple") of Warders in the process of escaping.

7. He is still bonded.

8. Rina appears to be masking his bond, (Luckers has suggested it's fading), as he is unaware of her location.

9. He is careful around Aes Sedai, (though not all AS appear to have heard of him), and their Warders.

10. Various Warders have heard of him before.

11. Warders are happy to follow him, or at least work with him.

12. He has met (and possibly helped train?) Lan.

13. His Aes Sedai (Rina) is one of the "Too Young Sitters" in the White Tower.

 

Thought it might be useful to have it all on one post. Please feel free to pull it apart/add to it. That's just the basic facts, I tried to avoid the theories, as a noob/newbie guide to Elyas.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

I was under the impression that Elyas taught Lan as one of the Malkeri companions that made it with Lan.

 

He can't be. In New Spring, it states a good few times that Bukama is the only one of the Malkeri who got Lan out who's alive.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

As for why they would sweep someone bonded to a Wolfbrother aside... why wouldn't they? It gives her no especial ability for the Hall, and they want nothing from Elyas in any case. It probably never even occured to them

UNQUOTE

 

It just seemed to me that they would have wanted to use the Aes Sedai who was bonded to him so that if they ever needed to they could locate him and study him. Just like some Aes Sedai want to study Ta'veren

[trakand_01]

Quite possibly, with everything else they have to think on at the moment, Elyas is somewhere near the bottom of their list. I would (personally) think if they wanted to get their hands on a WolfBrother, Perrin would be the better one to pursue; there's a better chance Rand would come to help him (although I also think Rand would cut him loose out of necessity for self-preservation).

[Luckers]

Why wouldn't they? The Wolf King prophecy is known, and if there's one area you'd expect the Greens to display scholarship, it's about the KC.

 

I'm sorry, but we have no proof that that prophecy is known AT ALL amongst Randlanders--indeed, given the degree of exposure of Aes Sedai to Perrin and Elyas before him, we know that Wolfbrotherhood is not a comonly understood thing, and as such, the Wolf King prophecy certainly isn't the corner stone of Aes Sedai action. It's in point of fact never even been referenced. Remotely. Moiraine actually conciders that Perrin may have been influenced by the Dark One because of it. So... yeah, don't see any basis at all for that comment.

 

And what is KC?

 

And how well-known are the Wolfbrothers? Few know of Perrin's gift. Elyas is well-known to Aes Sedai. Noam lost his mind and was a local curiosity. Elyas has heard rumors of perhaps a few others- but then again, they may be rumors of himself, or may stem from the wolves' fuzzy grasp of time.

 

The answer is not well. You listed specific interactions with Wolfbrothers we've had in the plot, in terms of people other than us it is made more than clear. Not well.

 

Recall, too, that those who recommend bonding the ta'veren seem to be Greens. If they thought they had a leash on one of the prophesied figures of the last battle, I could see them quite set-up over it.

 

Greens would bond a man with a candy bar they wanted. Seriously there is not only no evidence for them percieving a need for a man like Elyas, but there is active evidence against him being important to them in anything they do--its pretty much every comment we have about him if you want to look it up.

[The Lost One]

I thought Verin was familar with at least part of the Wolf King prophecy?  Doesn't she ask Perrin when he is going to give up the axe or some such?

 

That being said, what do we actually know of the Wolf King prophecies? 

[BrainFireBob]

KC's the Karaetheon Cycle- the prophecies of the Dragon, which one would expect all Aes Sedai to be at least passingly familiar with, and I was maintaining that the Greens in particular would be concerned with those sections regarding the Last Battle. The Wolf King choosing the hammer is a harbinger of the Last Battle, as is the very existence of the Wolf King. Hence, it would be well-known among Greens, one expects. So my post stands- the Wolf King prophecy is known (to the relevent group, Aes Sedai in general and most especially Greens in particular).

 

Since Wolfbrothers are not well-known, it is not outside the realm of possibility that Elyas' abilities are considered unique by the Aes Sedai in the Tower, which is why I suggested the Greens may think he is the Wolf King.

 

As to Lan and Elyas- Elyas ties his long hair back with a braided leather thong. Lan refers to knowing men who became Warders who surprised him in New Spring. Lan was raised, not just by the swordmasters who rescued him, but also among a little community of Malkieri, including boys close to his own age, such as Ryne, whom he slew in New Spring. Since Elyas wears the braided thong, which may well be a hadori, there is room to speculate that Lan's concern for Elyas is that for a childhood friend of his, perhaps one a few years older. Highly coincidental, but the braided thong remark has been made multiple times, and we know that is a cultural marker of the Malkieri.

 

Or Elyas could simply have taken Lan under his wing to train him in Gaidin customs, but there's a timeline problem- Moiraine seems to have spent little time in the Tower at all, and Lan needed little training the Warders could provide, if he needed any. Which leads one again to Elyas perhaps being one of those men who surprised the New Spring Lan by accepting the bond.

 

EDIT: As to the Warders accepting him, the fact he was a Warder may not have come up- but the fact he's probably a Borderman (or at least highly familiar with their customs, he lived with a Saldaean for awhile), and that Warder culture is seemingly a spin-off of Borderman warrior culture, means they may take him for an extremely skilled, useful Borderman.

[Elwinn Taron]

Dear BF Bob,

 

Could you please post a book or chapter where Elyas is said to wear a hadori?  I seem to recall that he wore his hair "tied back with a leather thong, at the base of his neck" meaning a ponytail.  I never once got the impression it was a hadori.

 

I don't think that Verin knowing something about the Wolfking taking up the hammer makes it well known.  Verin is a veritable treasure chest of little-known lore, and as we all know, she is very secretive. The only reference we have to a Wolfking at all is from Tylee Khirgan, referring to the Seanchan KC.

 

 

 

[D1RTNAP]

In the Dragon Reborn after Moraine sees Noam, and Perrin goes to her to ask about his condition, she tells him she knows little of it having seen a small obscure mention of it in some notes and also mentions that it was not well known/ understood in AoL. Sorry i cant provide chapter and verse, but I was listening to the audiobook of this today before i got home and read this thread.

 

Since this was the only way she managed to glean any knowledge of the wolf bit I'd say its fair to assume the knowledge is not widespread.

 

[BrainFireBob]

We're never given more detail, but I'll see if I can find reference to it being braided. No-one that would recognize the hadori has ever described Elyas to us.

[cheyjade]

Since Elyas wears the braided thong, which may well be a hadori...

 

Let me try making an attachment...this is how I always pictured 'pulled back with a leather thong' vs hadori.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Lan refers to knowing men who became Warders who surprised him in New Spring.

 

I'm re-reading New Spring at the moment. I don't have the book with me, but I understood it as meaning that he was amazed that men became Warders in general.

 

I also think that it's unlikely that Elyas is Malkeri. There have been no references that would suggest it, apart from the hair tie, which I've never thought of a hadori as it's described as being at the base of the neck.

[trakand_01]

As I have understood it, the hadori is a band which goes around the forehead, a little like some footballers wear... also like blind people in centuries past wore, to mark them out as blind, it sits above the brow and goes around the head.

 

I think Elyas ties his hair in a ponytail at the nape of his neck.

[Luckers]

KC's the Karaetheon Cycle- the prophecies of the Dragon, which one would expect all Aes Sedai to be at least passingly familiar with, and I was maintaining that the Greens in particular would be concerned with those sections regarding the Last Battle. The Wolf King choosing the hammer is a harbinger of the Last Battle, as is the very existence of the Wolf King. Hence, it would be well-known among Greens, one expects. So my post stands- the Wolf King prophecy is known (to the relevent group, Aes Sedai in general and most especially Greens in particular).

 

Thats a guess at best. There is no record or indication that they give that verse any form of specific weight--and indeed, given the lack of mention from Moiraine, who's studied the Cycle more exclusively than most--don't you think that if a common pervasive interpretation of that prophecy existed speaking of the Wolf King being a man who could talk to wolves she would have made the connection when Perrin changed? Yet she didn't, she was utterly caught by surprise. Furthermore theres the fact that these Greens do nothing when they come face to face with Perrin--as many have. Don't you think they would have gone, oh wait, here's another Wolfbrother, and oh look he's best friends with the Dragon. Yet they don't. The only one that makes that connection is Verin. And then theres the lack of any action by the Greens to persue or reign in Elyas. Do you really see the Aes Sedai going 'he's the Wolf King of prophecy. Lets just ignore him now'.

 

So no, i dont think your post does stand. Certainly the weight of what we've seen in the books pushes against it.

 

 

[Darth_Andrea]

See this is one of the things thats causeing me a problem as far as consistancy in the story. Verin seem to have knowlage of Perrin (WolfKing) and possiably Mat as well. Who are apparently mentioned in the prophecys. But Morains says (and I can't remember which book) that the prophecys never mention anything about companions. Would you not surmise that if someone other than the Dragon was mentioned in the prophecys and apparently on the side of light that they might be someone close to him. Oh say child hood friends or the like? But Moraine seems convinced that no one else is mentioned. So is this a editorial error or what?

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]          

[Mr Ares]

See this is one of the things thats causeing me a problem as far as consistancy in the story. Verin seem to have knowlage of Perrin (WolfKing) and possiably Mat as well. Who are apparently mentioned in the prophecys. But Morains says (and I can't remember which book) that the prophecys never mention anything about companions. Would you not surmise that if someone other than the Dragon was mentioned in the prophecys and apparently on the side of light that they might be someone close to him. Oh say child hood friends or the like? But Moraine seems convinced that no one else is mentioned. So is this a editorial error or what?

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]

“When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known. When the fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown.”

 

- Knife of Dreams, A Deal

The Wolf King prophecy. Sufficiently vague, wouldn't you say? Is this "wolf king" on the side of Light or Shadow? Is he a friend or foe to the Dragon? Assuming that this is all there is, Moiraine is right about a lack of mentioned companions.

[Daedrid]

We know Elyas was a warder, that he thinks "killing warders is a bad thing" which might imply he's done it himself,

 

he said in "the path of daggers" that he had to kill warders to get away

[The Lost One]

See this is one of the things thats causeing me a problem as far as consistancy in the story. Verin seem to have knowlage of Perrin (WolfKing) and possiably Mat as well. Who are apparently mentioned in the prophecys. But Morains says (and I can't remember which book) that the prophecys never mention anything about companions. Would you not surmise that if someone other than the Dragon was mentioned in the prophecys and apparently on the side of light that they might be someone close to him. Oh say child hood friends or the like? But Moraine seems convinced that no one else is mentioned. So is this a editorial error or what?

 

That is what I am wondering now.  If the WolfKing is mentioned in the prophecies and Mor. knows the prophecies as well as we think she does, but she doesn't connect anything to Perrin...maybe it is a small error.  Or it just might be something that Mor. never speaks aloud.  She does tend to keep a lot of secrets.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]          

[trakand_01]

I always just assumed that Moiraine meant it didnt mention that the Dragon Reborn would have companions, that nowhere in the prophecies did it say "the dragon reborn and his friends will do this", but that doesnt mean that some of the prophecies are not about other people than the DR. It's just coincidental that the other people mentioned in the prophecies happen to be his companions.