Why all of the hatred toward Perrin (Here we go Again)

[Perrin or Mat maybe Rand]

Most of you who "hate", dislike, whatever you like Perrin just do it cause he hasn't done the nasty with Berlaine and other girls who fancy him. Deep down you'd all like him to be just like you and your favorite hero Rand flawed, promiscuous and deep down a little horny! 

 

 

 

 

I hope that even Perrin is a little horny (towards his wife). Being horny is not immoral or an unlikeable trait as long as the object of your desires is your wife. Unless of course you are a repressed Victorian. :P

 

I'm so horny all the time I would definetly take Faile and Barlaine and Elayne and Egwene and heck any of the young tings in WoT just like Mat if I were Perrin. No holding back, no discrimination I'd even go for the famous Domani girls too. I'd be the number one dog! A pimps pimp if I might say so :P :P :P

[Alderthal]

I think the "hatred towards Character X" is more or less based on which part of the story you're reading. RJ decided to mature Perrin out earlier on in the series what with the TR thing, and that sort of left him obsolete for a couple of books or so. I found Mat very annoying at the start of the Wheel of Time series, and he only got better around the time he went to Rhuidean. Egwene was also a bother to me until she got to the Amrylin seat. Likewise, Perrin starts out awesome, reaches a climax (the TR rescue thing) and is now just 'coasting' along with the plotline until he can get to do something awesome.

 

As for his character flaws, I find his obsession with Faile a hell of a less annoying than Rand's "I don't kill women" attitude. And as for his 'willingness' to let the world burn to get Faile back, well, Rand jumped in front of a FREAKING FIREBALL hurled by one of the MOST POWERFUL AND WICKED channeler of the Age of Legends to protect Min. Now, if we're talking about reasonable sacrifices to save the world vs following your dong to trouble.... Well, Rand's 'chivalry' takes the cake.

[Elgee]

If, at some stage, it had come down to a choice between letting Masema and his raving mob get away, and saving Faile, what would his choice have been?

 

To not accept that and find a way to do both.  I mean, seriously, he was presented with what looked like an impossible situation.

 

One would certainly hope so, but as yet we've not seen a definitive choice from Perrin.

 

My suspicion is that he would be true to his word, yours is that he would catch a wake up. May yours prove to be the correct one  ;)

[Mr Ares]

when he returns to the two rivers he denies being a lord even tho he married nobility which makes him a lord

He didn't marry Faile until after he had returned to the TR (and both Mat and Rand went through their "I'm not a lord" phases, and all ended up with titles. I wonder if that works for everyone. I'm not a lord, I'm not a lord, I'm not a lord. Word of my new peerage should be arriving any day now). Also, marrying a noble does not automatically make one a noble, that would depend on the laws of the land in question. For example, in the UK a wife holds her husband's title, but a husband doesn't hold his wife's. Anyway, I'll suppose you also dislike Rand and Mat, given that they are always in denial - I'm not the Dragon Reborn, I can't channel, Tam is my father, I'm not a ta'veren, I'm not supposed to save the world, I can't speak the Old Tongue. If you're not a big fan of characters who are big on lying to themselves, this really isn't the series for you.

 

The fact that he isnt that clever doesnt bother me as much as some

He isn't that stupid. He's just careful.

He doesnt really do anything!

Yeah, just look at the way he didn't rescue his wife. Or the way he didn't make an alliance with the Seanchan, defeat the Shaido, destroy Masema's army, or any of the other things he didn't do.

 

And as for his 'willingness' to let the world burn to get Faile back, well, Rand jumped in front of a FREAKING FIREBALL hurled by one of the MOST POWERFUL AND WICKED channeler of the Age of Legends to protect Min.

Must...resist...urge...to...nitpick...Must...resist...To hell with it. Rand didn't jump, he was already in front of Min.[/nitpick] One could also point out his refusal to kill Lanfear when she was threatening his life, and the lives of others.

[zanotam]

Perrin is hated because he's that guy that we all know some people wish we were and so it's jealousy. He also feels an odd part in the story, Rand is the Dragon Reborn and protagonist, Mat has The Dark One's (or more likely, Lews Therin's) own luck, a great head for strategery, and he's a playa, and then you have Perrin. Perrin is responcible, he talks to wolves (cool), actually seems to have a vague idea what he's doing, he's got a wife, some of the sexiest, most powerful women in his world are fighting over him, and he's kinda boring. Guess why he's not popular?

 

Personally, I like all the characters. Randland is a world filled with very human characters interacting, fighting, hating, loving, etc. and the mix of realism and an epic story make for characters I personally find very likable.

[Shard]

I find it sad that anyone can hate Perrin, next people will be saying they hate Loial too. *shakes head*

[The Doctor]

Nice way to break it down Ares, I couldn't have said it better myself, and I'm a fake Dr.

[Cadinsorcladfigures]

I don't mind Perrin aside from the fact that he says many things such as "I would rather see the world destroyed than for harm to come to you" to hush wife faile. Which can be understood but I think he tries to overprotect her in a way that's bad for him, her and the people of randland

 

 

[Cloudz]

My POV is, Perrin has lost his whole family, all he really has now is Faile, if he loses her he is done.

he has low self esteem because he "thinks slow", and why would you let the person who builds you up the most die.

 

Perrin is not "mentally slow" or thinks slow" he instead actually thinks before speaking. A trait that might actually benefit the other main characters, especially Nyneave, Egwene and Mat. Perrin is a person that likes to think of all the possible conseqences before deciding on a course of action for a person as large as him who could literally kill most of the other characters with his bare hands without much effort such a mindset is a rather good trait.

 

i know this, which is why put "thinks slow" in quotes

[seasnake]

Perrin is perhaps the most intuitive of the three.  He reasons out early on that he will be drawn to Rand when Rand needs him, he understands how to defend his people, he's sensitive to the pull when he feels Rand is coming, he realizes the risks of what they do and the frighten him more(for him, he's seen a man lose his mind to the wolves, another man become unable to live in society), he has a wife he loves and he treats pretty well (even when she's too weird to figure that out).  He's a pretty solid guy.

 

What he lacks, and gained a little bit more in the latest books, is a mercenary element to him.  He tends to be fairly naive and refuses to involve himself in politcal/social maneuvering.  The result is when he does something it looks like some kind of deep political/social game of some kind, because people around him are not as innocent and think no one could be that innocent and keep the company he does.  So it must be a front.

 

Examples: Bashere finds it incredulous that he happened to want to marry Faile just because he liked her and never understood she might inherit a throne.  The Two Rivers people can't believe he knows so much of the world and warfare and still sees no glamor in it.  Morgase can't believe he isn't part some deep plot because he's friends with Rand.  Lini can't believe he didn't sleep with Berelain because surely he would have been sensitive to the possibility and taken steps to make it clear to everyone he did not.  It occurs to no one in the camp that the thought of cheating on Faile is so remote that he doesn't think to try and assert the fact he didn't cheat.  Masema thinks he must be of the Shadow.  Faile thinks he plays a subtle game with her for a long time, then she realizes he doesn't play games, then she accepts that.

 

In short, everyone except maybe Faile and Balwer constantly misunderstands this guy.  And I think it makes him one of the more interesting characters out there, and I like his chapters more than anyone else. 

 

Oh, and to CUBAREY, Perrin and his wife are constantly getting it on.  He isn't ashamed of having a sex drive, he just exercises it only within matrimony.  Lots of references to it throughout the books.

[Perrin 187]

Oh, and to CUBAREY, Perrin and his wife are constantly getting it on.  He isn't ashamed of having a sex drive, he just exercises it only within matrimony.  Lots of references to it throughout the books.

Oh yes thats right Faile's infamous Saldean farmgirls.  ;)

[Perrin 187]

Seasnake I just like to add that I think most of the aiel and Loial seem to understand Perrin and also Elyas Machera. And looking back at the chapters Balwer actually does communicate very well with Perrin.

 

It will be intersting to see Perrin and Mat meet and see if the two even recognize each other.

[seasnake]

I don't know if the Aiel understand Perrin as much as they accept him, they don't make a habit of picking at things that are different.  They treat Perrin like a force of nature, they may not understand all the causes but they accept it is happening and you may need to take cover.

 

I forgot about Elyas though, I think Elyas showed himself to be very insighful in general and of course he relates to Perrin in particular very well.  And I agree about Loial.  Loial, Gaul, Elyas, Balwer, Faile, to some extent Tam, he does have some solid support around him. 

 

I'm most looking forward to all three Ta'veren being together again, should be interesting.

[Kivam]

I beg to differ. It doesn't matter WHAT Faile is like, what most of us dislike about Perrin is his obsession with her and his willingness to do ANYthing to get her back. The man needs to become less Emo and grow a pair, IMO. A bit more attention to his duty wouldn't come amiss either.

 

It's funny, he always talked about being willing to do ANYthing to get her back, and seemed like he would ignore his duty, but in point of fact, thats not what he actually did.

 

What he actually did is accomplish his duty, take extraordinarily good care of his men, and actually exceed his duty by securing the loyalty of the Queen of Ghealdan.

 

I look at Perrin's "oh I have to get Faile back even if I deal with the Dark One" the same way I view Mat's "I'm no bloody hero".  Their talk is belied by their actions.  Mat is very heroic, even though he says he doesn't want to be, and Perrin doesn't really forget his duty and get everyone killed, even though he says that he doesn't care what happens as long as he gets Faile back.

 

 

Except for that part where he tortures the Shaido . . .

[Muad Cheade]

When he tortured the Shaido, it was to find the whereabouts of the prisoners. It was something he had to do in order to succeed.

[Perrin 187]

When he tortured the Shaido, it was to find the whereabouts of the prisoners. It was something he had to do in order to succeed.

Actually he got nothing useful out of them. RJ was just trying to prove how far he is willing to go to get his wife back and also learn more about his psyche with the after talk with Eylas.

[Kivam]

Except for that part where he tortures the Shaido . . .

 

Actually, that precipitated a moral crisis which caused him to throw away his axe in self-loathing, because he recognized that his action with it were morally disgusting.  Despite his protestations that he would do "anything", the torture issue demonstrated that he still recognized a moral line, that he felt some form of remorse when he crossed it, and he chose to not cross it again.

 

If anything, that episodes demonstrated that while his morality was cracked by the stress, ultimately he chose to remember his morality.  That doesn't grow back the Aiel's hand, of course, but it demonstrates that Perrin still has other moral priorities, despite his protestations that he would do "anything" to get Faile back.

 

I agree with most of that - but where are you getting "he chose not to cross it again" from?  Throwing away the axe?  It's an expression of remorse, sure - but doesn't tell you what he'd do if he had to make the same (or a similar) choice to rescue Faile.  The fact remains that he did cross that line, and while he hated himself for doing it, he was willing to do so in order to reach his goal of saving Faile.  Same basic premise underlying his deal with the Seanchan.  Are there moral priorities that he wouldn't sacrifice to save her?  I think so - but it's left deliberately ambiguous.

[Kivam]

When he tortured the Shaido, it was to find the whereabouts of the prisoners. It was something he had to do in order to succeed.

 

And, therefore . . .

 

If he had to kill an orphanage full of children to succeed, you'd find that on the right side of the moral line?

[Muad Cheade]

Really? You think Perrin would kill an orphanage of children to defeat the Shaido? I doubt any of the ta'avern would even contemplate that.

 

And Kivam, RAW is referencing the symbolism between Perrin's axe and hammer. By throwing away the axe, Perrin's turning his back on being willing to do what ever it takes (i.e. the axe) and focusing on being a builder and preserver (the hammer). Obviously, it has a huge impact on the world because it's mentioned in the Prophecies.

 

Also, Perrin has been through a lot of traumatic things. His family being murdered, his wife being kidnapped, his "protege" betraying him etc. Only a strong man could handle that.

 

[Kivam]

Really? You think Perrin would kill an orphanage of children to defeat the Shaido? I doubt any of the ta'avern would even contemplate that.

 

You're missing the point.  An action is either moral or it isn't; the fact that it is thought to be "necessary to succeed" doesn't really come into play - as you recognized in entirely avoiding the question of whether, if it had been necessary and he had done it, it would have crossed the moral line.

 

BTW, prior to that scene, would you have expected Perrin to be capable of that?

 

And Kivam, RAW is referencing the symbolism between Perrin's axe and hammer. By throwing away the axe, Perrin's turning his back on being willing to do what ever it takes (i.e. the axe) and focusing on being a builder and preserver (the hammer). Obviously, it has a huge impact on the world because it's mentioned in the Prophecies.

 

I'm aware of the symbolism.  My point is that symbolic decisions and remorse are easy when they don't actually impact your likelihood of reaching your goals.  Put Perrin in a situation where he has to make the same call again, and what will he decide?  That's just not something you can be certain of based on a dramatic gesture made when he was not faced with the decision, sorry.

 

Also, Perrin has been through a lot of traumatic things. His family being murdered, his wife being kidnapped, his "protege" betraying him etc. Only a strong man could handle that.

 

Also, he has a beard.  How is any of that relevant?

[Kivam]

I'm not sure he would have been.  I don't equate dealing with the Seanchan on a moral level with torture at all.  Unless you believe that by working with them, he was approving of their cultural practices?  Such an assumption could have ... dire ... implications for any sort of inter-cultural cooperation.

 

He agreed they could collar any wise ones they captured.  That goes a little beyond "inter-cultural cooperation", no?

[Kivam]

but where are you getting "he chose not to cross it again" from?  Throwing away the axe?

 

It is an extrapolation from two facts.

 

One, when he went back, he did not carry through his threat to make them all paraplegics and leave them as beggars

 

They all broke, all talked.  Why would he carry through his threats?

[Perrin 187]

Well many of those Wise Ones have been holding hundreds of thousands of people who don't follow the aiel way of honor,(ji e toh its called or something), condoning the rape, and even personally sexually exploiting of them in some cases. And then of course violently punishing all of them for the smallest infraction. I'm sure there are a number of other things I have missed.

 

So one could say that they sort of deserve it,Perrin condoning them to be damane isn't really the most morally deprived thing ever, if anything it is karma. Unless of course you are saying that they will use the damane against Rand and if thats the case well then as of now all 3 ta'veren are making good diplomatic gains with the Seanchans so a truce is likely,(especially with their home continent in chaos). My mian concern is the Seanchen attack on the WT. Then it could come back to bite Perrin. But being aiel these damane could take a while to torture enough to finnally submit. So maybe they won't be involved in such a attack.

[Kivam]

Well many of those Wise Ones have been holding hundreds of thousands of people who don't follow the aiel way of honor,(ji e toh its called or something), condoning the rape, and even personally sexually exploiting of them in some cases. And then of course violently punishing all of them for the smallest infraction. I'm sure there are a number of other things I have missed.

 

So one could say that they sort of deserve it,Perrin condoning them to be damane isn't really the most morally deprived thing ever, if anything it is karma.. . .

 

Sure, those wise ones didn't earn any sympathy.  But if slavery is immoral, then it is immoral to use it as the punishment for slavemasters.  And there's no chance in the world Perrin would have made that deal if his wife wasn't in danger. 

[Muad Cheade]

 

You're missing the point.  An action is either moral or it isn't; the fact that it is thought to be "necessary to succeed" doesn't really come into play - as you recognized in entirely avoiding the question of whether, if it had been necessary and he had done it, it would have crossed the moral line.

 

BTW, prior to that scene, would you have expected Perrin to be capable of that?

 

Yes. If any one kills innocent children because they felt it was necessary, they crossed the moral line. I didn't answer that because I thought it was understood. Perrin didn't take a life. What I don't get is why the topic of Perrin "torturing" the Shaido prisoner is seen as more moral wrong than Rand murdering Fedwin Morr with poison. Back to Perrin. That's why he threw away the axe. He wasn't willing to do anything to succeed.

 

And yes, I did think he was capable of that, but I thought it would be as a result of being a wolfbrother not losing his wife.

 

As for Perrin allowing the Seanchan to take the Shaido Wise Ones as damane, it was a morally questionable decision, yet I think it was the right one. For one, they are still prisoners of war and as consequence they were neutralized from killing and devastating the land.

 

There wasn't any other way for Perrin or Tylee to handle them. If they were released they'd simply attack the "good guys" and free the other Shaido. Killing them is out of the question. It is also impossible for them to be kept on forkroot as there's not enough. Perrin made the decision that cost fewer lives.

 

Also, if Perrin decided not to allow the Seanchan to take them, I'm not sure he and his men could stop Tylee and her 15,000 men from doing so. He's outnumbered 3 to 1. That's just one of the thoughts that crossed my mind.