And the answer is...Ingtar.

[GrandpaG]

It finally dawned on me the other day why I am so skeptical about whether or not WOT characters work for the devil.  Ingtar.  Before the revealation that he was a darkfriend, I was totally fooled.  Right up until his final charge I still waited for RJ to say "just kidding".  His character just did not fit with what I envisioned as darkfriend behavior.  It instilled in me the feeling that I could misread ANY of the characters.  In Rand's shoes, I would have entrusted Ingtar with my life without question.  And, if Ingtar's boss told him to cut Rand's throat he would have done it in a heartbeat.  So, when I upset some DMer's in the past by suggesting that some "unquestionable" characters might possibly be on the side of the Shadow, that's where it was coming from.  Love, Gramps.

[Vambram]

:)

[Majsju]

Funny thing here is that there has been almost a trend lately for people to suspect just about anyone based on whatever little oddity they can find.

 

While Ingtar, the one confirmed good guy turned bad was as perfectly normal one can possibly be.

Seems to me that DFs should be looked for among those whn acts a bit too normal. Remember kids, weird is good ;D

[Harmless Bandit]

It finally dawned on me the other day why I am so skeptical about whether or not WOT characters work for the devil.  Ingtar.  Before the revealation that he was a darkfriend, I was totally fooled.  Right up until his final charge I still waited for RJ to say "just kidding".  His character just did not fit with what I envisioned as darkfriend behavior.  It instilled in me the feeling that I could misread ANY of the characters.  In Rand's shoes, I would have entrusted Ingtar with my life without question.  And, if Ingtar's boss told him to cut Rand's throat he would have done it in a heartbeat.  So, when I upset some DMer's in the past by suggesting that some "unquestionable" characters might possibly be on the side of the Shadow, that's where it was coming from.  Love, Gramps.

 

I believe I understand what you are getting at. I never saw that coming as well, up to the last instant, to the moment he revealed himself. Add to that that I was new to fantasy when I read the WoT, and I had a pretty 'weird' idea of what a Darkfriend was (closer to a monster/creature thing than a human).

 

Funny thing here is that there has been almost a trend lately for people to suspect just about anyone based on whatever little oddity they can find.

 

Yeah, and IMHO it's ridiculous, bordering on insane.

[Vambram]

Did RJ ever write a POV chapter or small scene from Ingtar's POV?

Its been said that once we have a scene or chapter from a character's POV, then we can know 100% for sure, (if there are any doubts) as to whether or not that character is a dark friend.

 

 

 

Oh and Majsju is right. Weird is cool, :) ... but lets not get too weird, right? :D

[Majsju]

Did RJ ever write a POV chapter or small scene from Ingtar's POV?

Its been said that once we have a scene or chapter from a character's POV, then we can know 100% for sure, (if there are any doubts) as to whether or not that character is a dark friend.

 

 

 

 

 

No, we never had a POV from Ingtar.

And a POV is hardly 100% confirmation in itself. A DF would hardly constantly walk around thinking about being evil.

[algspkr]

I could have sworn we had a POV of a DF before we discovered that they were in fact a DF. 

 

The best way for a POV to reaveal someone as or as not a DF is if they think to them selves "I hope the Dark One wins soon." or "I will help defeat the shadow."

[Vambram]

I was talking about characters whom there are still legitimate  doubts after KOD as to whether or not they are darkfriends.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Ingtar didnt want to be a Darkfriend anymore, which is why his behaviour wasnt particularly Darkfriendish.

[42Bonzo88]

    Isn't it funny (wierd) how someone fighting the shadow for their whole lives can be a darkfriend supporting the shadow at the same time? 

 

    But we have seen through history of people turning on the commander for one reason or another (Brutus and Ceasar come to mind).

 

[aussie_ashaman123]

    Isn't it funny (wierd) how someone fighting the shadow for their whole lives can be a darkfriend supporting the shadow at the same time? 

 

"He who fights the monster should look into it that he hmself does not become a monster"

 

Ingtar became a darkfriend because he realised the shadow was growing stronger and would soon obliterate everything. There are all kinds of darkfriends. Barthanes wouldnt be known as a darkfriend if he hadnt let trollocs onto his property, and the boy Paitr comes to mind as well.

 

I dont think there's any steriotype of a darkfriend.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

     Isn't it funny (wierd) how someone fighting the shadow for their whole lives can be a darkfriend supporting the shadow at the same time? 

 

Not really, you have sleeper cells in all sorts of militant groups. People who work amoung their opponants for years and then take action when they get the nod.

 

If you're looking at the long run, it makes perfect sense.

 

e.g. Ingtar fights for the Light his entire life. At the end of the day he kills a couple of hundred Trollocs, so what? Then, the D.O. calls him up and says it's time to fulfill your oaths ... He lets Trollocs into Fal Dara, and the city almost falls.

 

My point is, Ingtar kills a lot of Trollocs that can be replaced easily, the D.O. might wipe out a city.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

"He who fights the monster should look into it that he hmself does not become a monster"

UNQUOTE

 

"When you look into the Abyss, the Abyss also looks into you..." A Baldurs Gate player, i take it? I recognised that instantly

 

Anyway, I think you guys all need to re-read the Great Hunt and take note on the scene where Ingtar tells Rand he is a darkfriend. Guys, everything about that scene told me that Ingtar didnt want to be a Darkfriend anymore. He wanted to walk in the Light again but didnt know how. Read it! Ingtar may have gone to the dark for the reason mentioned previously but it is so obvious that he regrets taking the dark oaths or whatever. That bit, when Ingtar confesses, is IMO one of the most emotinal parts of the series. Ingtar wanted to walk in the Light again-when you look back on the way he is with Rand it is too obvious that it isnt a manipulation attempt by one of the Forsaken (eg, I think Bashere is a darkfriend even though he seems loyal to Rand and seems to like him, but thats another theory).

[trakand_01]

Funny thing here is that there has been almost a trend lately for people to suspect just about anyone based on whatever little oddity they can find.

 

While Ingtar, the one confirmed good guy turned bad was as perfectly normal one can possibly be.

Seems to me that DFs should be looked for among those whn acts a bit too normal. Remember kids, weird is good ;D

 

In that case i think we're perfectly safe with Aviendha  ;)

 

It is the old saying 'always watch the quiet ones'. Short of Padan Fain who lets face it, isnt quite normal anyway, I find it unlikely that there are many DF's out there who carry a 'registered darkfriend' card along with their national insurance number and donor card; they need to keep quiet about it out of necessity.

 

I personally worry about Bashere. There is only one very short scene that concerns me, but I do worry. It is the scene just before Taim is brought to Rand for the first time. They are in... Caemlyn I think, and Rand has been fighting about 150 men at once with wooden sticks, as he does. Amyrilla, Ailil etc all are watching and swooning over him. He's just finished, and Bashere is lounging in a chair at the end of the courtyard. Someone says something about Rand being attacked by surprise or something of the sort, and Bashere suddenly launches a dagger (faile-style) at Rand, who stops it in the air with the power.

 

I THINK Bashere was making a point - it will be very difficult to catch Rand by surprise (which I find quite ironic seeing as Taim is shortly introduced), but it does worry me. Especially seeing as so many times in his POVs Rand thinks 'he would trust Bashere with his life'.

 

I also am still not 100% on Elaida. I know Alviarin is the head of the BA, and many of the things Elaida does as Amyrlin are driven by Mesaana through Alviarin, but I still wonder whether all of this is just a ruse to make us think 'Elaida can't be black' when actually, she is. I am only on book 9 so this may have been resolved already.

 

Others that concern me;

 

Vandene

Verin (although I really hope she does not turn out that way)

Weiramon (but I think we're meant to think that)

Breane, although I think perhaps she just hates Morgase

Gawyn

Faile, at times.

 

[Majsju]

I strongly doubt Bashere would be a DF.

Regarding his eventual betrayal, I think he is more likely to do what Perrin threatened to do, turn his back on Rand to save his wife.

[trakand_01]

Do you think Deira would let him? This is a society where the women think that if the men don't shout at them, they are seen as being too weak to stand up for themselves.

 

Surely the man having to fight to protect them would be the ultimate insult to women who believe they can handle themselves?

[Majsju]

Do you think Deira would let him? This is a society where the women think that if the men don't shout at them, they are seen as being too weak to stand up for themselves.

 

Surely the man having to fight to protect them would be the ultimate insult to women who believe they can handle themselves?

 

I think Deira is intelligent enough to see when she is in a situation she can not possibly handle herself. And if she was, say kidnapped by DFs and put in a trolloc cookpot, she would not have much to say about what Bashere did or did not do.

 

Look at Faile, who was raised by Perrin. She expects Perrin to come after her, she just won't sit idly and wait for it.

[42Bonzo88]

    Thank you Dreadlord, I remember now Ingtar's confession to Rand and also his 'pennance' by holding that gate for as long as he could. (I believe it was something like that.)

 

[bjclinton]

2 thoughts:

 

1. while i agree that Ingtar didn't come across as a DF, I have to admit that i was certainly suspicious of some very odd behavior from him during the hunt for the horn. I personally suspected something from him because he was sooo darn fervent about finding the horn....he was more obsessed about it than anyone else, and for some reason that rubbed me the wrong way. If you reread those chapters, you'll see what I mean if you dont already remember what i'm talking about. That being said, i was still floored upon finding out he was a DF.

 

2. Regarding Bashere, while i would find it very hard to believe that he was a DF, there was also one very very small thing that happened that has stuck out in my head. I dont have the exact quote, but i'd love it if someone had it handy and could quote it. Someone mentioned how odd Bashere acts the day Taim shows up for the first time (ie the daggar). What caused me to scratch my head was something that Taim actually said and did and the way it was worded. It went something like this:

 

"My Lord Dragon, I am as honest about my intentions as...." Taim's eyes flashed quickly over to where Bashere stood and looked back to Rand again..."as Bashere is." Taim's lips quirked in the way the quirked where he almost smiled.

 

I hope i'm not taking too much poetic justice with my paraphrasing, but that whole little section just seemed.....well, odd to me. I interpreted that as a knowing look that passed from Taim to Bashere and it seemed like he was doing more than merely taunting him. If, in the end, we find out that Bashere is in fact a DF, I think this one little scene will be the one we can all look back on and recognize as the first little clue of someone else suspecting it.

 

 

 

 

[aussie_ashaman123]

QUOTE

"He who fights the monster should look into it that he hmself does not become a monster"

UNQUOTE

 

"When you look into the Abyss, the Abyss also looks into you..." A Baldurs Gate player, i take it? I recognised that instantly

 

 

 

its actually a proverd by Nietsche

[Guest Dreadlord]

Its on Baldurs Gate as well, and the one about the Abyss is too

[Luckers]

The actual Nietzsche quote is 'and if you gaze long into the Abyss, then the Abyss gazes also into you.'

 

He was being ironic about philosophical nihilism and the resulting personal depression most nihilists feel. It's from Beyond Good and Evil, I believe. Aphorism.

[Jument Logos]

Ingtar being a DF was a small shock, but it wasn't without foreshadow, it was just difficult to think that whatever strange actions he did show were evidence of evil and not just some private agenda or vendetta or family history with the Horn or something involving Agelmar. Its true that in these books, often the more square or normal characters end up being the ones hiding things more so than odd glancing and secretive weirdoes. Ingtar keeps saying 'I MUST get the horn' and Hurin two times or more says in the background 'that isn't the way' or something similar. this is almost, from a literary perspective, the least suspect way for Ingtar to speak his concern verbally about completing his duty to an ominous fade visitor who had charged him, or perhaps the vision of directiong he most likely recieved at the meeting we witnessed through Bors(jachim Carridin's) POV in prologue of GH.

 

I agree that the questionable hesitation in Taims voice and ultimately precedenting his loyalty with Bashere is troublesome, but when i read it two things came to mind : one, he could have been having a small connective look at Bashere being united under the shadow and then saying without lying that his loyalty is akin to bashere's being that Taim is a DF, or, Two, He was feeling caustic and looked at his loyal pet Bashere the closest example of who Rand Trusts and says it to clear rands doubts of him buy taking advantage of his feelings for Bashere.

 

 

[GrandpaG]

Some very good comments as usual.  Thanks.

 

I personally have been totally fooled by the actions of characters in these books so I tend to be "gun shy"...I have trouble accepting them stictly as they are presented without wondering "is this another Ingtar?"...or, "am I being fooled again?".

 

I have heard the unsettling discussions about Bashere before.  Because of the support and fatherly guidance he has given Rand (even when Rand almost destroyed his forces with Callandor near Ebou Dar), and because of the uninhibited trust that Rand has placed in Bashere, I truly hope that Davram is not another Ingtar.  :(  Lan, too.  He can't possibly be working for the Shadow, right?

 

My gut still tells me to be weary of Min. ::)  I know...she can't possibly be anything but the best thing that ever happened to Rand.  In reality, maybe.  In the WOT world, anything is possible.  Moraine was very interested in her from the start...then she was a "guest" in Tar Valon for a very long time under the watchful eye of Siuan Sanche.  I have gotten into trouble before by pointing suspicious fingers at those two so let's not go back there.

 

I don't mean to preach or try to convince others to see things that are not there.  My original reason for posting was to try to explain why I sometimes have doubts.  Thanks for your time. :)