Isam and Luc

[42Bonzo88]

    First of all, I am new to the site, so if this has been addressed before, I apologize, but I hope to maybe put a new spin on the question.

 

    I don't agree with the philosophy of Isam/Luc being the same "molding" of two people similar to Fain/Mordeth.  Fain was the Dark One's and was "turned into" the dog trailing Rand and the boys before he came to Shadar Logoth. So, Mordeth captured him and made him more than what the Dark One had already done. You can say that Fain did this to himself. He could have waited outside Shadar Logoth if he was afraid to enter even with the Dark One inside him.

 

    Luc/Isam is supposed to be a Dark One (or forsaken) creation. But how do you put two people together? How did they find each other? Were they darkfriends before the transformation?

Please help and again I apologize if this has already been discussed to exhaustion.

[Mr Ares]

First of all, I am new to the site, so if this has been addressed before, I apologize, but I hope to maybe put a new spin on the question.

 

I don't agree with the philosophy of Isam/Luc being the same "molding" of two people similar to Fain/Mordeth.  Fain was the Dark One's and was "turned into" the dog trailing Rand and the boys before he came to Shadar Logoth. So, Mordeth captured him and made him more than what the Dark One had already done. You can say that Fain did this to himself. He could have waited outside Shadar Logoth if he was afraid to enter even with the Dark One inside him.

 

Luc/Isam is supposed to be a Dark One (or forsaken) creation. But how do you put two people together? How did they find each other? Were they darkfriends before the transformation?

Please help and again I apologize if this has already been discussed to exhaustion.

Pretty much everything has been discussed to exhaustion, but there is no need to apologize. Now, what we know about Slayer: Luc was sent to the Blight by a Gitara Moroso following a foretelling of hers. Isam fled with his mother when the trollocs overran Malkier. The Dark Prophecy states that the met in the High Passes and "one did live, and one did die, but both are". We have seen Slayer change between the two personalities, so we know that somehow they are combined into one, but the exact details of how are unknown. That said, there is a lot we don't know about Shai'tan's powers. So, as to your questions, we don't know exactly how you put people together, we only know that you can (Slayer is proof that it is possible), we don't know how they found each other, only that they did (it could have simply been an accidental meeting, or something the Shadow went to great pains to arrange), and we don't know if they were Darkfriends before the change (although given Isam's long term association with the Blight it is a fair bet he was, but Luc is completely unkown). That Slayer is composed of Luc and Isam put together into one, with certain gifts from Shai'tan, is not just a theory, it is a fact, backed up in the books (like the Slayer pov in Winter's Heart). I hope this answers your questions. We don't have all the details, though.

[Nerevar]

Theres also the theory that Slayer will eventually end up doing something beneficial to the light, Gitara foretold that Luc needed to go to the Blight, there must have been some reason for it. Though some can argue she had a dark fortelling and as a darkfriend she decided it was best to send him there, however that wouldn't really work with how she also sent Tigraine to the Waste.

Personally I want Slayer to save Lan and/or Rand when for some reason he starts to see the Light, I'll leave it up to RJ/Sanderson to make that work if it was indeed the plan.

[aussie_ashaman123]

Gitara may have simply sent Luc to the blight because he was already a darkfriend, and couldnt risk him killing his sister. a simple threat of "If you dont go, Ill tell everyone your nasty secret" would do it. I think slayers only power is his ability to enter and exit the WoD at will, which is why they are 2 people merged into one, one reflection in the real world, and the other in the WoD.

[Guest cw]

There isn't one reflection in the real world and one in Tel'aran'rhiod.  Slayer can be either Luc or Isam in the real world and in the World of Dreams.  He just can't change his persona when he is outside of Tel'aran'rhiod.  This is explained in Slayer's PoV in Winter's Heart.

[aevogt]

In TSR, he always appeared as the Isam persona in TAR because Perrin would have recognized him if he appeared in TAR as Luc, who Perrin knew from the waking world.

[Shoulderthumper]

Pardon me for asking, but where has it been proven that Gitara Moroso was a darkfriend? Or is that just a theory?

[Nerevar]

Pardon me for asking, but where has it been proven that Gitara Moroso was a darkfriend? Or is that just a theory?

 

It hasn't been proven, its just one side of an argument over why Gitara sent Luc to the Blight.

Basically was her foretelling a light or a dark one, if a light foretelling then she sent him there for a future beneficial thing for the light. If a dark one then she sent him there to merge with Isam and become Slayer, the dark ones minion.

[Majsju]

It hasn't been proven, its just one side of an argument over why Gitara sent Luc to the Blight.

Basically was her foretelling a light or a dark one, if a light foretelling then she sent him there for a future beneficial thing for the light. If a dark one then she sent him there to merge with Isam and become Slayer, the dark ones minion.

 

If it even was a Foretelling, and not plain logic...

"Hmmm, I just sent Tigraine to the waste. Knowing Luc, he will try to find her. Knowing Luc, he might actually succeed, and that would cause all kinds of trouble. So, better send him packing.

[Kadere]

Or perhaps she new that Luc had to become part of Slayer for something in the Last Battle to go right.

[Luckers]

    Luc/Isam is supposed to be a Dark One (or forsaken) creation. But how do you put two people together? How did they find each other? Were they darkfriends before the transformation?

 

I can't tell you how the Dark One did it, but i can point out that manipulating souls seems to be a fairly commonplace thing in this world. We see lots of forces influence souls in this world--Machin Shin removes souls, Dreamwalkers souls leave their bodies all the time, and can pull other peoples souls out too. From the dream ter'angreal we know that channeling can be used to remove souls (even completely, as shown by the Hedgehog ter'angreal). Mordeth's soul survived its bodies death for thousands of years and managed to insert itself into a new one. Indeed, we even get a description of what people who've lost their souls feel like at one stage, suggesting how relatively common it is. And then lets not forget the Forsaken themselves.

 

So, its not an answer as to the exact how of this incident... but it does set up some form of... precedence of ease?

[Bazzles]

I had a theory on this a long time ago that just came back to me reading this post. =)

 

Warning: spoilers...

 

 

 

 

 

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As we know, the DO has to find a suitable body in order to recycle the Forsaken, he takes their soul from the grave, flushes out an existing soul in a suitable body, and inserts the Forsaken's soul. Or at least this is commmonly how we understand the process(or it was last time I was reading theories ;) which WAS a long time ago...)

 

Well anyhoo, there's no hard and fast rules for screwin around with people's souls, so my theory is that when Luc and Isam fought and one was killed, he took the soul of the dead one and inserted it into the soul of the living one, thus creating Slayer...

 

Well just my 2 cents =)

[Troilen]

Not quite sure if this has been discussed elsewhere, but just thought I'd add.  I'm in the middle of rereading TSR and I actually just read the chapter last night when Perrin first encounters Slayer in T'A'R.  He chases Slayer all the way to the Tower of Ghenjei where Slayer then disappears.  Perhaps maybe his "destiny" is to help out Mat and Moiraine then?  Seems a possibility to me =)

[aussie_ashaman123]

can luc and isam be in one world at the same time? im sure they could (TSR, luc told the whitecloaks emonds field was closed while isam redirected the trollocs). Im unsure about how that would work though.

 

as for slayer helping at the tower, unlikely. they already have 3, 4 will screw it up, they know how to get in, and i think slayer drew perrin to the ToG to trap him inside, stepping out of TAR instead of going inside. (remember, those snakes and foxes dont like the shadow).

[Bazzles]

As far as I know they can switch around the dominating personality at any time but only appear as Luc in the real world, while they can appear as whoever they want in TAR. Could be wrong though, it's been a while.

[el Nynaeve]

As far as I know they can switch around the dominating personality at any time but only appear as Luc in the real world, while they can appear as whoever they want in TAR. Could be wrong though, it's been a while.

 

I always thought that they can appear in the real world as either man, but the switch can only occur in TAR. I'm pretty sure that's correct, but someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Bazzles]

I always thought that they can appear in the real world as either man, but the switch can only occur in TAR. I'm pretty sure that's correct, but someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

You could well be right, I haven't re-read the books in a good while.

[aussie_ashaman123]

but could slayer had become isam, found the trollocs in the real world (fades dont dream, so he talk to them in their sleep), then become Luc to get a mob of two rivers folk to march up and say emonds field is closed to the whitecloaks?

 

[Guest cw]

As far as I know they can switch around the dominating personality at any time but only appear as Luc in the real world, while they can appear as whoever they want in TAR. Could be wrong though, it's been a while.

 

Slayer can be either persona in either world.  The only restriction is that he must be in Tel'aran'rhiod when he make the switches between them.

[Kadere]

He can make the switch to either persona, but he has to do it while entering or exiting T'A'R. He can't be in T'A'R and switch, it has to be while stepping in and out. RJ was asked if he could change from Luc to Isalm while walking down the street, and RJ said that he would have to walk down the street, enter T'A'R, and exit T'A'R to become the other person. He runs around T'A'R as either Isalm (as in TSR) or Luc (as in WH), but it's the transition that allows the change.

[Guest cw]

He can make the switch to either persona, but he has to do it while entering or exiting T'A'R. He can't be in T'A'R and switch, it has to be while stepping in and out. RJ was asked if he could change from Luc to Isalm while walking down the street, and RJ said that he would have to walk down the street, enter T'A'R, and exit T'A'R to become the other person. He runs around T'A'R as either Isalm (as in TSR) or Luc (as in WH), but it's the transition that allows the change.

 

You misunderstood RJ's comment.  He was only indicating that Slayer couldn't simply change in the middle of the street in the Waking World.  Slayer can't change at all in the real world.  He must enter Tel'aran'rhiod, make the change, and come back.  He does not make the change while transitioning from one world to the next.  Slayer's Winter's Heart PoV makes it clear he can change at will while in the World of Derams.  He actually makes the change on screen after talking to the person (probably Demandred) who sent him after Rand.  That is what Slayer meant about being truly free only in Tel'aran'rhiod[/u].

[Guest Dreadlord]

I would like Slayer to turn up when Mat, Noal and Thom go to get Moiraine, if indeed they do go to the Tower of Ghenjie. I cant wait till the Slayer situation is more out in the open, I think its safe to say he is an assassin. Moridin sent him to kill Padan Fain (the "renegade") and he was also sent to kill Rand and Min