Concerning Balefire

[phoenix]

Ok, so we all know that when you balefire someone, it's like catching their thread in the Pattern on fire. It's like killing them in the past, so to speak. We also know that the strength of the balefire determines how much of their past is erased. My question then, is: what would happen if you balefired someone who balefired someone?  To give an example - let's say when Moiraine used balefire to kill what's-his-face, Ishamael had turned around and balefired the crap out of her. She burned what's-his-face out of the pattern for mere seconds, but was then burned out for let's say hours. Would her balefiring have happened or not?

[Guest durram laddel cham]

I don't have the link, but I thought RJ once said when you're balefired, you're dead, dead, dead.

 

[Spool]

That is a very interesting idea. I think they both would still die, but who knows?

[Shendare]

According to my understanding, consider a tapestry, a common comparison for The Pattern.

 

Cut a thread in the tapestry, and the two sides of the broken thread do not stay exactly as they are. Tension causes them to pull back, apart. Threads that intersected the cut one near the point of breakage will no longer intersect, because the broken thread has been pulled away from them.

 

Now, if you cut one of those threads that intersected the first broken one, does the original thread repair itself? Of course not. Once a thread is broken, it cannot easily be repaired, and not at all in the tapestry that makes up The Pattern.

[Tyrell]

The point is that you technically killed them BEFORE they used the balefire the first time.

[Shendare]

My interpretation of the paradox-avoiding explanation is that while the effects of a thread in The Pattern that has been removed by Balefire will be retracted a short way into the past, even this will not undo thread removal via Balefire, because nothing can replace a thread removed from The Pattern via Balefire. It's gone.

 

The part of the thread below the breakage point in the tapestry has fallen from the tapestry completely, and cannot be re-woven in.

[Farslayer]

Its a paradox, but once you are balefired your pattern is dissolved and its not coming back, even if it "never happened"

[Paviel]

I think that if you balefire somebody who used balefire, it undoes the effects of the first balefire.

 

Which causes one heck of a paradox, but Moiraine DID warn Rand that entire cities had been wiped out through excessive/careless use of balefire...

 

Consider the effects when Rand and the stranger in Shadar Logoth threw balefire at each other... Neither of them were burned out of the Pattern, but the experience gave Rand quite a headache.

[TurboZ]

I would say that once balefired, that is it. You're f@#$%d. You ain't coming back.

[The Dragon Champion]

I would also have to say that once you're balefired, there's no going back. That could be disastrous for Randland if someone was balefired like Rahvin, and everyone they balefired was brought back. I mean, like it was said, entire cities were balefired. what if they someone who balefired a city was balefired super intense, like years later, and the city came back, but a new city had been built where the old city was, so what would happen? lol, it doesn't really matter i guess, my point being that i don't think someone who is balefired can ever come back, no matter what.

[bjclinton]

Ok, so we all know that when you balefire someone, it's like catching their thread in the Pattern on fire. It's like killing them in the past, so to speak. We also know that the strength of the balefire determines how much of their past is erased. My question then, is: what would happen if you balefired someone who balefired someone?  To give an example - let's say when Moiraine used balefire to kill what's-his-face, Ishamael had turned around and balefired the crap out of her. She burned what's-his-face out of the pattern for mere seconds, but was then burned out for let's say hours. Would her balefiring have happened or not?

 

Im laughing that you just posted this question because i'm currently rereading the series and just finished TFOH....after reading the epic fight scene between Rand and Rhavin, i was literally going to post the same question. very very odd timing! there was so much balefire used in that fight that it made me wonder the same thing.

[Shaidar_Rannow]

When you balefire someone they are gone. Even if the person who used balefire was then struck by a strong dose of it dies. You cant bring back something that does not exist. I beleive in the books it goes something like this- When balefire is used it erases a period of that persons life as if it where not there. So nothing is available to bring back.

[safwd]

That was an excellent question and it had me thinking. But i also think that once you are balefired you are gone. It actually burns you out of the pattern so i dont think you can be put back. But who knows, pretty intriguing.

 

Book 11 Spoiler so look away if you havent read book 11. Its only a small spoiler though.

 

This made me think of something else. In book 11 when Elayne gets kidnapped by the BA and they are leaving town Bridgette intercepts with a pretty good sized army. Now how strong is the Balefire wand that the BA was using to wipe out chunks of the army? If it is as strong as Rand could make then that could have caused a bit of a problem in Caemlyn because quite a few people died due to Balefire.

[Shaidar_Rannow]

Could you clarify a bit about your question please? If your asking how powerful the wand made the balefire I think that would depend on the channeler using it. The more power channeled through it the more balefire, now I have no hard evidence to back that but thats just my 2 cents.

[Asgard Thorin]

That was an excellent question and it had me thinking. But i also think that once you are balefired you are gone. It actually burns you out of the pattern so i dont think you can be put back. But who knows, pretty intriguing.

 

Book 11 Spoiler so look away if you havent read book 11. Its only a small spoiler though.

 

This made me think of something else. In book 11 when Elayne gets kidnapped by the BA and they are leaving town Bridgette intercepts with a pretty good sized army. Now how strong is the Balefire wand that the BA was using to wipe out chunks of the army? If it is as strong as Rand could make then that could have caused a bit of a problem in Caemlyn because quite a few people died due to Balefire.

 

I don't think the balefire rod is as strong as Rand. Moreover, it doesn't seem to work well i.e. it takes a lot out of the user. It may vary depending, but it probably only burns out seconds, minutes at a time. Remember, Moiraine could only burn out a few seconds(so she believed, anyway, and Asne probably was not one of those few who were much more powerful than Moiraine (few before the Two Rivers crop))

[aussie_ashaman123]

Im not sure what would happen if you bale-fired someone who just used balefire, but the paradox could rip the pattern apart, so my advice is dont try it.

[Shaidar_Rannow]

Well they said that the wand was also very difficult to control. Unfortunatly we probably wont learn much more about that wand, unless BS lets in a few chapters about the cache of angreal that Eylane has.

[Asgard Thorin]

Actually, we know that Asne was not that strong. She was one of the fleeing thirteen, and Suian said to the girls that all of you are a amatch for Lianidrin in sheer power and she is the strongest. I don't think Asne really destroyed any threads, just singed'em back a few heartbeats

[BrainFireBob]

There's a Jordan quote floating around that "balefire stands outside its own paradox."

 

Means if someone is balefired, and then the balefirer becomes a balefiree, it's still too bad for the first person.

[Luckers]

I don't think the balefire rod is as strong as Rand. Moreover, it doesn't seem to work well i.e. it takes a lot out of the user. It may vary depending, but it probably only burns out seconds, minutes at a time. Remember, Moiraine could only burn out a few seconds(so she believed, anyway, and Asne probably was not one of those few who were much more powerful than Moiraine (few before the Two Rivers crop))

 

Only Cadsuane was stronger than Moiraine, and only Romanda, Elaida, Lelaine and Siuan were as strong, so its a safe bet.

[Shaidar_Rannow]

Thanks for finally showing up Luckers! Jeez man I coulda used your help with this paradox junk. You coulda backed me up. Alas its too late.

 

Anyway, I was thinking that maybe the power isnt a factor in any Angreal, Ter' Angreal(Not ability mind you, just power) They perform their purpose when channeled through, for example, an angreal can only boost your power so much, or the TA that the Aes Sedai use for testing is only sooo strong. Maybe how much you channel is not relavant. After all, even a little balefire cuts you out of existance.

[Luckers]

I imagine it depends on the ter'angreal. Some draw on power to supplement themselves, some require no interaction with the channeler, some likely cant be worked without sufficient power, concidering the Accepted ter'angreal requires three sisters to work it.

 

And also we know that putting too much power into a ter'angreal affects things too, concidering the reault of having a circle of thirteen use the bowl to change the worlds weather, which it wasn't supposed to be able to do, and resulted in the Ebou Dar wierdness.

[Shaidar_Rannow]

True Luckers, strike true. I shall ponder this...are you sure the WT testing TA require 3 sisters or is that just formality, you always seem to have ready quotes so I need ya to clarify it for me, I dont have my books 2-9 there in another state.

 

*Weeps for the loss*

[Luckers]

Another state? Have the reached Nirvana? I can so see that happening, but that may just be because I'm a nerd.

 

And yeah it seems likely, concidering many other sisters take part in the ceremony of raising Accepted, and more come at a later stage in the ceremony, yet three specifically focus on channeling the flows that run the ter'angreal, and have no active role in the ceremony.

[Shaidar_Rannow]

No Nirvana is not allowed for my books, that happens when I READ them. Ah how soothing it can be. Oh and thanks I dont remember them really going all that into the process. Now back to the topic at hand. NEW QUESTIONS! HA HA!

 

It is clear to me that the mutual balefire ceasefire is off. How do you see balefires role in TG? I mean I think both sides(at least the shadow for sure) will be using it like its going out of style. Though I think TG will take place all over Randland, I think in the end it will be at Shayol Ghul. What kind of effects is balefire going to have in SG? I dont remember how Lanfear opened the bore but balefire in SG may cause some serious repricusions! Perhaps further allowing the DO access to the world, or screwing with the reality in the battle. I dunno. Read and disscuss