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The Horn and Tarmon Gaidon


aevogt
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This theory it’s still very much in its infancy.  I have provided my own point/counterpoint arguments at the bottom. 

 

I was thinking about a part of Nicola Treehill's foretelling:

 

"he who is dead yet lives" 

 

And the Prophecy:

 

“To live you must die”

 

and it occurs to me that there is another way these could be looked at.

 

"he who is dead yet lives" 

Could this not loosely describe the Heroes bound to the horn?  They are "dead" in that they no longer have corporeal bodies, but they "live" in Tel'aran'rhiod.  When we first meet Birgitte, she is dead and probably has been for some time, yet Perrin and Nyneave both hold lengthy conversations with her in TAR.  Not something you do with someone who is really taking a dirt nap, i.e. not bound to the Horn

 

This is the real reason that the Horn is so important to the Last Battle.  Granted, an extra hundred or so invincible warriors is all to the good but I just don’t see how their presence helps Rand fight his battle with the DO.  As I recall, at Falme their success in the battle paralleled Rand’s, not the other way around.  As he gained advantage, so did the Heroes. 

 

So I was thinking,

1. we know that someone who is bound to the Horn can be brought out of TAR after their death, (Birgitte) into their body.

2. It is accomplished using the One Power (Moghedien is glowing brightly with the One Power when she rips out Birgitte, indicating she is probably maxing out her ability to draw on the OP)

 

”To live you must die”

Rand is going to die, either on the slopes of Shayol Ghul or possibly at the Bore.  Since the DO can control the entrance to the Bore, I don’t really see how Rand is going to get past the DO’s Fangs but that’s another issue.  That tells me he buys a farm on the slopes above Thakandar and burie3s Shaidar Haran in the back 40.  Since he is bound to the Horn, there is little doubt, in my mind, that once he is dead, he can be brought back from TAR, either by a powerful channeler (Alivia) pulling him out or using some undiscovered function of the Horn. 

 

 

Point:

There is no evidence that Rand is bound to the horn.

 

Counterpoint

-Artur Hawkwing seems to say that he is.

-Who is more suited than the Dragon to be bound to the horn.

-I think RJ once said Rand is bound to the horn but I couldnt find it.

 

Point

-Ripping someone out of TAR is life threatening.

 

Counterpoint

-Maybe only if the channeler is not strong enough or if it’s done wrong or with the intention to cause harm.

-The Warder bond saved Birgitte so it could do the same for Rand, since his will be broken when he dies.

-Maybe the Horn is actually a primitive Ter ‘angreal and there is a “setting” that will allow greater control of the “real” power of the horn. 

 

Point

-Alivia is not a dream walker.

 

Counterpoint

-Maybe she is and we don’t know.  There are damane who can foretell, why not dream walk

-There are all sorts of Ter ‘angreal that will get a non dreamwalker to TAR.

 

 

Anyhow, this has been my Wacky Horn of Valere theory.  I'm sure there are some holes but that's why it's called a theory.

 

 

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Rand is a Hero of the Horn, confirmed by RJ. *goes looking for link*

 

Edit: Found link, and quote.

 

Q: "Is this soul born in any other age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as The Dragon/TDR?"

A: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills.  "It" is born in other ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.  In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this Soul.  This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "LTT", but apparently they've been hangin' together in T'A'R and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation.  (My interpretation.)

 

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/stargate/8513/creator-horn.htm

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Guest durram laddel cham

but are you alive when you come out  of the horn?

 

speaking of the Horn, does someone know when the Horn is created?

probably the first

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but are you alive when you come out  of the horn?

 

speaking of the Horn, does someone know when the Horn is created?

probably the first

 

When the heroes are called by the horn, I don't think they qualify as "alive".  If someone is removed like Birgitte, then yes, they are alive.

 

I have a whole other theory about the Horn that isn't quite ready to be posted.

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Indeed. My guess is that the Horn in some manner blurs the distance between Tel'aran'rhiod and the waking world. The heroes are not precisely in our world, which is why they are immune to our weapons and so forth, and is why they are able to do things like ride on water.

 

It is also the reason for the display of Rand and Ishamael above Falme and the influence it had on that battle. Though it is largely supposition, i believe that the effect of ta'maral'ailen on Rand at that moment (the moment of the realisation of prophecy and so forth) was so strong that it literally bent the suddenly fuzzy physical laws of the co-joined dream and waking worlds with the force of it.

 

I mean we've seen the effect Rand's ta'verenism can have in the stable real world, put that in a world which can be influenced merely by thought, and make it the moment he announces himself, the very crux of prophecy....

 

 

As for when the Horn was made, it was made prior to the Age of Legends, yet after our time. My guess is that it was made some time during the transition between the two. We know something fairly cataclysmic happened to wipe out all traces of our time, and that our time ended with the appearence of channelers, and that those channlers later swore to serve the people while others swore to aid them in that, and to never touch a weapon ever again.

 

Seems likely there was some kind of war between channelers and non channelers. That'd be my guess for the time when the horn was created. Also my guess for the creation of the portal stones (attempting to escape a broken world), and the period of time when the Ogier were met and came here (to perhaps use their abilities to heal that world). Even the creation of the Nym, the appearence of the Voice ... the single language and cultural base, it all makes sense.

 

I have a more detailed post on that somewhere. Its called like the Age of Legends to Our World or something. Meh.

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Rand is linked to the horn. i have no idea how, but i am certain he is. Mat blew it, so he is linked to it as well, maybe Lews Therin blew it in a previous life or something. who knows. But i recall Artur Hawkwing asking rands permission and taking rands orders when mat blew the horn. and he did call him Lord Rand and all that. Makes me thing that, regardless of who blows it, so long as its on rands side, he will be able to give the orders. very strange. Especially since the heroes wouldnt ride until rand pulled the banner out.

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LTT never blew the Horn, since it was lost during most of the War of Power.

Rand is linked to it by merit of being one of the Heros bound.

The Heroes follow whoever sounds the Horn. The incident in Falme was a unique occasion. The Wheel demanded a Dragon Reborn, so it stepped in and made Hawkwing and the others unable to act until the banner was raised. Ie forcing the Dragon Reborn to proclaim himself.

Even that was not enough, since the Wheel also took action and displayed Rands fight with Ishy all over the place, and knocked Taim and the other false dragon out.

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who ever said the wheel forced rand to let loose the banner? they knew who he was before they even realized something was missing. he didnt need to proclaim himself. The heroes already knew. and anyone who saw the fight would probably have known as well. he didnt accept it or acknowledge it till later with the shienarans. Either way, its pretty irrelevant. I agree that LTT probably did not sound the horn. However, Artur hawkwing deferred to Rand, which i am not sure he would have done if rand was just another hero bound to the horn. and i doubt that because rand isnt dead yet. Unless your saying Hawkwing defered to rand because he happens to know that rand will die and become a hero of the horn and somehow have precedence over all the other heroes? Maybe you mean LTT is one of the heroes bound? that makes sense, since he wouldnt show up with the dead ones cause he is living inside rands head at the moment.

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LTT never blew the Horn, since it was lost during most of the War of Power.

Rand is linked to it by merit of being one of the Heros bound.

The Heroes follow whoever sounds the Horn. The incident in Falme was a unique occasion. The Wheel demanded a Dragon Reborn, so it stepped in and made Hawkwing and the others unable to act until the banner was raised. Ie forcing the Dragon Reborn to proclaim himself.

Even that was not enough, since the Wheel also took action and displayed Rands fight with Ishy all over the place, and knocked Taim and the other false dragon out.

 

I don't know if I agree with the way you phrased that. I don't think the Wheel's 'fuzzy logic', as RJ puts it, is capable of such a direct act. My guess is that what was witnessed was a result of the influence of Rand's ta'verenism on the Pattern following the Horn's sounding--quite clearly the Horn suspends the natural physical laws in various ways, resulting in a much more... fluidic... state of reality--and subsequently a much more maleable one.

 

To say that the Wheel took action implies it was working directly on Rands behalf, and I don't think thats nessasarily what was occuring--i mean, concider the way the Heroes were driven back when Rand started to falter. It wasn't an entirely positive influence. It was simply that Rand had a much stronger influence on the threads around him than normal people, and the sounding of the horn weakened the pattern further and thus the influence was increased yet again.

 

Certainly the Wheel needed a Dragon. In its not quite sentient manner it was pushing that. Focusing the weave around Rand in ta'maral'ailen--generally fuzzing things up to grant the Rand thread more influence, and thus more ability to affect change.

 

Completely aside from that, the Wheel didn't exactly 'force the banner requirement' on Hawkwing. I read that part much more as an emotional requirement on behalf of the Heroes. Rand, an ancient companion of theirs, was there to lead them once more. It was... romantic... or perhaps thematic is a better word... to have the banner. It set the mood of the moment--and ultimately such humanity is a major theme in RJ's writing especially with his more fantastical plots or characters.

 

who ever said the wheel forced rand to let loose the banner? they knew who he was before they even realized something was missing. he didnt need to proclaim himself. The heroes already knew. and anyone who saw the fight would probably have known as well. he didnt accept it or acknowledge it till later with the shienarans.

 

Maj is speaking of the moment when Hawkwing said "something holds me. You are here, the horn is here, have you the banner?" or something of the sort. Some read it to imply that that banner is nessasary to use the Horn--and i believe Maj was responding to that age old suggestion (forgive me if i was wrong Maj).

 

Certainly Maj is correct--the importance of the banner was limited to that single incident, and is not a requirement for the use of the Horn. I go a step further, i dont think it was a requirement at all--had Rand not had it they would have still moved forward. It was more like doing things in the propper way. To Hawkwing the old crew were all there, about to follow the Dragon into battle once more. It was only propper that the Banner declare them.

 

The simple fact is that the way Hawkwing asks isn't strong enough for it to be an actual limitation on their ability to act. It wasn't a demand, it was a idle thought, an act of romantacism.

 

agree that LTT probably did not sound the horn. However, Artur hawkwing deferred to Rand, which i am not sure he would have done if rand was just another hero bound to the horn. and i doubt that because rand isnt dead yet. Unless your saying Hawkwing defered to rand because he happens to know that rand will die and become a hero of the horn and somehow have precedence over all the other heroes? Maybe you mean LTT is one of the heroes bound? that makes sense, since he wouldnt show up with the dead ones cause he is living inside rands head at the moment.

 

Firstly, we know it as fact that LTT did not sound the Horn. The Horn was lost long before the War of the Shadow, and wasn't found again until after LTT died.

 

Secondly, the Dragon soul is indeed a Hero bound. Keep in mind, however, that LTT is not 'living in Rand's head'. LTT and Rand are the same soul, LTT is merely a seperate facet personality that has manifested because of the Taint. He is real, its true--his memories and personality are that which directed the soul when it lived in Lews Therin's body, but it is the same soul.

 

As for Hawkwing deferring to Rand--it was a matter of respect, not precedence. As near as we can tell there is no defined hierarchy amongst the Heroes. Rand and Hawkwing both seem to have a great deal of respect due to their actions and intelligence... but as Hawkwing himself says, they have fought each other as much as they have fought together.

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I don't know if I agree with the way you phrased that. I don't think the Wheel's 'fuzzy logic', as RJ puts it, is capable of such a direct act. My guess is that what was witnessed was a result of the influence of Rand's ta'verenism on the Pattern following the Horn's sounding--quite clearly the Horn suspends the natural physical laws in various ways, resulting in a much more... fluidic... state of reality--and subsequently a much more maleable one.

 

To say that the Wheel took action implies it was working directly on Rands behalf, and I don't think thats nessasarily what was occuring--i mean, concider the way the Heroes were driven back when Rand started to falter. It wasn't an entirely positive influence. It was simply that Rand had a much stronger influence on the threads around him than normal people, and the sounding of the horn weakened the pattern further and thus the influence was increased yet again.

 

Certainly the Wheel needed a Dragon. In its not quite sentient manner it was pushing that. Focusing the weave around Rand in ta'maral'ailen--generally fuzzing things up to grant the Rand thread more influence, and thus more ability to affect change.

 

Completely aside from that, the Wheel didn't exactly 'force the banner requirement' on Hawkwing. I read that part much more as an emotional requirement on behalf of the Heroes. Rand, an ancient companion of theirs, was there to lead them once more. It was... romantic... or perhaps thematic is a better word... to have the banner. It set the mood of the moment--and ultimately such humanity is a major theme in RJ's writing especially with his more fantastical plots or characters.

 

I interpreted it as the Wheel beoing responsible due to RJ confirming that the Wheel was responsible for broadcasting Rands battle with Ishy all over the place. Logic also says that the Wheel was responsible for taking out the false dragons at that very moment, since there is no way Rands ta'veren-ness could have reached that far.

But one thing does not exclude another. It is quite possible that the Wheel acted by boosting Rands ta'veren-ness in that moment, to hold Hawkwing back. Still the Wheel acting, just slightly less directly.

 

Maj is speaking of the moment when Hawkwing said "something holds me. You are here, the horn is here, have you the banner?" or something of the sort. Some read it to imply that that banner is nessasary to use the Horn--and i believe Maj was responding to that age old suggestion (forgive me if i was wrong Maj).

 

That, and perhaps more important, "The weave of this moment is set. We  have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

The weave of this moment. That more than suggests that this is something unusual.

 

 

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Guest durram laddel cham

something confuses me. the Horn was lost long before the War of the Shadow, but the eye of the world was made somewhere in the AOL and the Horn was in the eye of the world. ???

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i dont know how its possible for two distict people to share the same sould but perhaps yor right, luckers, i do agree with most of things you claim. they make sense.

 

That is how reincarnation works, the body dies, the soul is reborn. Though usually the personality associated with the previous body has the decency to stay dead and not tag along when the soul is reborn.

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Just a quick question about the Horn and the Shadow: According to one of the Aes Sedai (I think it was Verin), the heroes of the Horn will fight for whoever blows it, be he a Darkfriend or a Lightfriend.

 

How could she know that the heroes of the Horn were able to fight for the Shadow unless it had happened before? And if it had happened before, when, and how were they stopped?

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How could she know that the heroes of the Horn were able to fight for the Shadow unless it had happened before?

 

I imagine she read it somewhere, since the Horn had been locked away in the Eye for over 3000 years.  We don't know when, or even if, it ever actually happened.  It may be no more than someone, sometime, wrote that "Legend says that the Heroes of the Horn will fight for whoever sounds it," and she believes them.

 

Also, keep in mind, the Horn was made in a time when the Dark One was still sealed away, and apparently unknown.  So, the Horn wasn't made for the specific purpose of fighting the Shadow ... so logically, it should work for whoever blows it.  Whether its actually ever happened or not is another issue entirely ...

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I interpreted it as the Wheel beoing responsible due to RJ confirming that the Wheel was responsible for broadcasting Rands battle with Ishy all over the place. 

 

Again you phrase things with intentional action on behalf of the Wheel. Yes, the wheel did broadcast that event, but that doesn't speak to the exact function of the broadcast or why it happened. And since we are speaking of what RJ has said, RJ also directly stated that the wheel was not sentient, and as such it would not be capable of the specific directed action you describe.

 

It's all a part of its self-correcting machenism, not planning or action. As it drifts off from the pattern it should be weaving it exerts force to bring it back--one of those forces being the maleability of the Pattern around a ta'veren. Now loosen the physical laws of reality by sounding the horn and see the type of effect the Wheels exertion has.

 

Logic also says that the Wheel was responsible for taking out the false dragons at that very moment, since there is no way Rands ta'veren-ness could have reached that far.

 

Actually we have no way of knowing the reach of Rand's ta'verenism following the sounding of the Horn. If the Horn works as I suspect it does--by bluring the barriers between the waking and dreaming worlds--then it would indeed affect all of reality as the dream world does.

 

But one thing does not exclude another. It is quite possible that the Wheel acted by boosting Rands ta'veren-ness in that moment, to hold Hawkwing back. Still the Wheel acting, just slightly less directly.

 

You see, I think it happened the other way round. I think the wheels action was Rand's ta'verenism--remember, that is the wheel forcing ta'maral'ailen around Rand, not a talent of Rand--and that the Wheels effort was then boosted by the sounding of the Horn.

 

This makes much more sense to me because the Wheel isn't capable of the higher level thinking required for the various displays... its too artful, too manipulative. The Wheel merely facilitated the ease with which events can change around Rand.

 

Quote

Maj is speaking of the moment when Hawkwing said "something holds me. You are here, the horn is here, have you the banner?" or something of the sort. Some read it to imply that that banner is nessasary to use the Horn--and i believe Maj was responding to that age old suggestion (forgive me if i was wrong Maj).

 

That, and perhaps more important, "The weave of this moment is set. We  have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

The weave of this moment. That more than suggests that this is something unusual.

 

'The weave of this moment...' is something i would say if i were there and angsting for the old days. All of it, everything he says... its all just romantic and thematic.

 

i dont know how its possible for two distict people to share the same sould but perhaps yor right, luckers, i do agree with most of things you claim. they make sense.

 

The way things work in the wheel is that each soul has a different manifesting personality each time it is alive. This personality shows the same basic tendencies, but is manipulated by the events of its individual life and is thus, ultimately different. After its death these personalities seemingly exist in a more unified state... a sort of amalgamated personality.

 

But the significant point is that all those personalities exist in the one soul. In many ways it is much closer to the eastern understanding of the boddhisatva and reincarnation than it is to the western idea of the soul as the basis of conciousness.

 

 

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I've made this argument elsewhere, but throughout that entire chapter (TGH ch 49) Rand is acting very, very weird, even before the Horn is blown.  He is acting as if something or someone else is giving him subliminal instructions.  The philosophy of the Wheel as expounded by a number of characters (and RJ) does indicate that the Wheel has a "fuzzy logic" that enforces an agenda ... and can specifically wrap up and even coerce ta'veren to make its agenda go forward.  There are times when Rand seems to be pushing the Wheel ... but at Falme, it seems pretty clear that the Wheel had an agenda, and was pushing everyone around to get what it "wanted".  It may not be sentient in the same way that a person is, but it is capable of exerting pressure on events, and the pressure had been turned way up throughout this entire sequence.

 

When Hawkwing was about to go off without the Dragon Banner, the "pressure" that the Pattern exerted was probably increased.  That doesn't have to be the effect a sentient persona, just a reaction by reality to events moving away from their proscribed course.  Hawkwing's words might have been merely a "romantic and thematic" reaction ... except for the fact that he started moving away.  He was preparing to move from words to deeds ... and something stopped him, or at least exerted pressure on him.

 

Actually, I don't really buy the whole "romantic and thematic" bit ... there was substance in pretty much everything Hawkwing said.  I've never thought that eloquence should be confused for a lack of substance.  ;)

 

The functioning of the Wheel is somewhere between the simple action-reaction of physics and the purposeful action of sentient beings.  The "fuzzy logic" has an agenda to enforce ... and the events at Falme are as close to "direct action" as we've seen.

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I've made this argument elsewhere, but throughout that entire chapter (TGH ch 49) Rand is acting very, very weird, even before the Horn is blown.  He is acting as if something or someone else is giving him subliminal instructions.  The philosophy of the Wheel as expounded by a number of characters (and RJ) does indicate that the Wheel has a "fuzzy logic" that enforces an agenda ... and can specifically wrap up and even coerce ta'veren to make its agenda go forward.  There are times when Rand seems to be pushing the Wheel ... but at Falme, it seems pretty clear that the Wheel had an agenda, and was pushing everyone around to get what it "wanted".  It may not be sentient in the same way that a person is, but it is capable of exerting pressure on events, and the pressure had been turned way up throughout this entire sequence.

 

I don't actually disagree with anything you just said, I just think we're being too literal in how we're looking at the way the Wheel percieves and enacts its agenda. Ultimately its agenda is not the destruction of the Shadow, or even aiding Rand in that fight. It's agenda is maintaining its own stability--which obviously means it resists the Shadows manipulations, but nevertheless there is a difference.

 

And yes, it would push a thread, or threads, if it detected a point where a divergence away from that stability might happen. But concider this, if it was capable of either the decisive reasoning or the ability to strike people down in the way it struck down Taim and the others, why didn't it strike down Mierin and Beidomon?

 

It would be wrong of us, I feel, to mispercieve the nature of the Wheels reactivity and methodology. The Wheel, as near as I can tell, doesn't even act to assist ta'veren. It did not make them ta'veren to make their tasks easier--otherwise the negative effects of ta'verenism wouldn't occur. It's actions are neither designed to benefit one group, or hinder another--but rather to effect change.

 

When it starts to slip of course it turns to central figures and increases the degree to which they can influence the world in order to catalyze change. It uses them, effectively, to loosen things up, so it can alter the course of the Age Lace back to what it should be. It is the ultimate answer to Hard Determinism.

 

I'm not making any sense am I? I'm just saying, looking at that incident as if the Wheel directly intervened to announce Rand or throw down the False Dragons is too simplistic. Whilst, in its own fuzzy way the Wheel would be pushing for it--a push that as you yourself observed, is noticeable in the texts--the directed nature of such actions is too... reasoned. The wheel, like gravity, pulled inexorably but unbiasedly in a certain direction, and things flowed in that direction. But they were formed by the events occuring--the sounding of the horn, the already maleable nature of reality around Rand, etc--like water choosing the easiest path.

 

And it wasn't unopposed. It wasn't uniform. The Heroes fell back when Rand was loosing. This wasn't intelligent affirmative action on Rand's behalf. It was... the Wheel, catalyzing change. Making so things flowed, so they could be altered, moved.

 

Does that make any sense at all?

 

Actually, I don't really buy the whole "romantic and thematic" bit ... there was substance in pretty much everything Hawkwing said.  I've never thought that eloquence should be confused for a lack of substance.

 

Your saying a sense of romance can't be substantive? What a product of modern cynicism you are.

 

Besides, we should never underestimate the importance of symbols to people--and whatever else they are, the Heroes are still people.

 

 

As a final side note, just to pique you, but the majority of Rand's strangeness is linked to Egwene--and recall that channelers can sometimes come to sense those they've used the Power on. That all could be explained by Rands initial fear for Egwene and Bela during the Eye of the World resulting in a link akin to Nynaeve's. :)

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As a final side note, just to pique you, but the majority of Rand's strangeness is linked to Egwene--and recall that channelers can sometimes come to sense those they've used the Power on. That all could be explained by Rands initial fear for Egwene and Bela during the Eye of the World resulting in a link akin to Nynaeve's.

 

-Smacking my forehead- How could I have been so stupid!!! He was sensing BELA!!!!  BELA was making ...

 

OK.  Can't go any further or Maj'll have to beat me.

 

Whilst, in its own fuzzy way the Wheel would be pushing for it--a push that as you yourself observed, is noticeable in the texts--the directed nature of such actions is too... reasoned.

 

The most difficult part of this question to quantify is "How close does the Pattern's 'fuzzy logic' come to being a 'mind' or a 'will'."  And the reason that it becomes a question is that there did indeed seem to be something "directing" Rand.  Of course, we don't have enough information to say for sure ... and Jordan left it deliberately vague.  There has to be a set of given parameters that the Pattern "responds" to, whether as a matter of "intent", or simply as a matter of "reaction" (otherwise there would be no standard for the Pattern to "self-correct" to).  We're both trying to find the words for something that is very poorly defined.  So ... -shrug- ...

 

I guess the only thing I want to be careful to differentiate between is the "action" of the Pattern (whether the result of "intent" or simple "pressure" or something in between) and the function of the Horn.  Even when the Horn calls the Heroes, they remain agents of the Pattern, subject to its "pressure".  The Horn seems to simply be a piece of technology that blurs the boundary between Tel'aran'rhiod and the "real world", allowing the souls that rest there access to the real world.  So, despite Mat sounding the Horn, they followed the Dragon and the Banner, because the "weave of that moment" was for Rand to declare himself as the Dragon.  But when Hawkwing says "The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters," I think thats exactly what he meant.  The Heroes are probably more susceptible to the Pattern's pressure.  If someone calls them out in a moment that isn't a pivotal one to the Pattern's weaving, then they can probably act more or less unconstrained.  But in a situation that was that pivotal?  I don't think that either they or Rand had a whole lot of choice in the matter.

 

All of that leading up to this conclusion.  Just because Verin said that the Heroes would follow whoever blew the Horn, doesn't make it so.  The Heroes are agents of the Pattern, one means that it "uses" (whether by intent or reaction, the effect is the same) to ensure that the pertinent parameters for the current weaving are met.

 

Your saying a sense of romance can't be substantive? What a product of modern cynicism you are.

 

LOL ... not in the context you were proposing.  I believe you said it was like "angsting for the old days" ... I wouldn't consider that either substantive or pertinent.  I think that what Hawkwing said was both substantive and pertinent, not at all "romantic" in the sense you proposed.

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