Min screws up.......

[SwordGuard]

I've been re-reading the series and I'm sorry, but the characters put way to much store on Min's viewings. I think one time she is gonna be wrong and it gonna affect the entire story...... they do not even try to have a fall back plan in case on major things. Like Elayne's babies she is way to confident they are going to make it. It's to risky I'm sorry. I do not care if you could tell me what I'm thinking when it comes to my kids screw what you say especially if I'm royalty fighting for the throne............... :-[ :-[ :-[

[rd2000]

You need to understand the characters, and the world of Randland a little better.

 

In their world, foretelling is a fact, not a myth. You have grown up and adjusted to the real world's facts and myths, in RJ's world, things aren't the same. Take peaches for instance. In the real world, they are a tasty fruit. In Randland, they are poison.

[druidravi]

I've been re-reading the series and I'm sorry, but the characters put way to much store on Min's viewings. I think one time she is gonna be wrong and it gonna affect the entire story...... they do not even try to have a fall back plan in case on major things. Like Elayne's babies she is way to confident they are going to make it. It's to risky I'm sorry. I do not care if you could tell me what I'm thinking when it comes to my kids screw what you say especially if I'm royalty fighting for the throne............... :-[ :-[ :-[

 

Well the advantages of Min's viewing are counter weighed by obscurity of her viewings at least to the characters in the story . And all her viewings come true 

, inspite of the characters actions . There is only 2 if / then prophecies and one of them is not in control .

 

It is more useful to us readers in predicting  the story  .

[bjclinton]

they're not as reliable as foretelling, which has worked with 100% certainty from what I can tell. However, there is sometimes ambiguity with Min's wonderful gift. I'll explain:

 

She can only read so far into the pattern, so in part, your fears are real in that something could still happen if Elayne (for example) did something completely drastic and out of character that could change the weaving of the pattern. And if that were the case, Min's viewing could change. We've seen her viewings change before. But for her viewings to change, something major usually has happen. A decision made, or unmade. Ta'veren pulling someone in a direction they didnt plan on going in....stuff like that.

 

Needless to say, if I were in Randland and Min saw a viewing about me, like my dentist, i'd visit her twice a year to get my update  ;D

[DuDZiK]

I've been re-reading the series and I'm sorry, but the characters put way to much store on Min's viewings. I think one time she is gonna be wrong and it gonna affect the entire story...... they do not even try to have a fall back plan in case on major things. Like Elayne's babies she is way to confident they are going to make it. It's to risky I'm sorry. I do not care if you could tell me what I'm thinking when it comes to my kids screw what you say especially if I'm royalty fighting for the throne............... :-[ :-[ :-[

 

1) As another has said, this is an element that is not part of our reality so we cannot fully appreciate the fact that in Randland... this version of foretelling from Min is fact.

2) As another has said, though Min is 'always right', it's not always in ways we would expect and is ambiguous at best. A surprisingly few amount of her viewings are clear-cut in their meanings and/or her interpretations. She saw a falcon perch on Perrin's shoulder. Great... at the time we had no idea what that could mean, until we were introduced to Faile.

3) The case of Elayne is one of many throughout the series about the dangers of people putting so much store in prophecy. How many Aes Sedai throughout the series have tried to force their interpretation of a prophecy to happen and paid for it? Moiraine and Siuan tried to make sure that Rand lived to fulfill prophecy, and tried to manipulate events so it would. Look what happened to them: Rand's free will greatly hampered their 'plans', and Siuan almost paid the ultimate price. Look at Elaida now, with her foretelling about the Amylrin and the White Tower. Though foretelling is always right, she has misinterpreted it's meaning and her overconfidence as a result of it is going to be her downfall. Look at Elayne, though she may be right in that she will live to have her babes, how many people were killed as a result of her overconfidence? This 'setting too much store in prophecy' is a lesson from Mr Jordan's about such a thing.

4) This brings up the contradiction that comes with things that cannot exist in reality, such as prophecy; Or at least the version of prophecy that if something is prophesied to happen it MUST happen. Take the case of Elayne and her children. Min foresaw that she would have two children, now what happens if someone tries to kill Elayne before that happens? Does some magical force that gives power to prophecy intervene on her behalf? Does something more subtle happen, such as Birgitte and the Sea Folk women helping out? Does this force compel those people to help in order to ensure prophecy is fulfilled? There is a reason why prophecy does not exist in reality, and that is because it would contradict so much with the laws of existence that it cannot possibly exist.

[Guest leebarr]

Min's viewings and fortelling are closely linked. What she sees will happen, I do not think the pattern will let that change

[Dhaos]

From bjclinton

they're not as reliable as foretelling, which has worked with 100% certainty from what I can tell.

 

I'm not sure that we can assume Foretellings are always right- if that was the case, why would Moridin/Ishamael bother trying to turn Rand to the 'dark side' early on?  Why would the Dark One make the effort to try to break free on this turning of the wheel- surely he should wait until an Age where there is no foretelling of his defeat? 

 

Ishamael knows of the Prophecies of the Dragon- he personally corrupted them in Seanchan.  So does Ishamael think the Prophecies are false?  Does Isamael/Moridin know something about the nature of Foretelling that we do not?

 

From DuDZiK

There is a reason why prophecy does not exist in reality, and that is because it would contradict so much with the laws of existence that it cannot possibly exist.

 

The interesting thing here is that RJ was very knowledgeable about physics.  In a classical view of physics, prophecy absolutely -could- exist in reality.  It would require that the one making the prophecy had perfect knowledge of the current state of the Universe (as in, where every single atom is, and what velocity it had), which is immensely difficult, but it would be -possible-.  Of course, this would also imply that free will is an absolute illusion, which I'm not sure RJ would support.

 

On the other hand, quantum mechanics totally trashes this idea, effectively stating that you can never predict absolutely what will happen- just what is -most likely- to happen.  In WoT, it sort of feels like RJ has created a world in which the classical view rules the big picture (allowing prophecy and foretelling), while keeping the quantum view otherwise- thus allowing for Rand's inevitable sacrifice to be a choice, an example of free will.

 

As a final thought-

 

Balefire burns threads out of the Pattern.  I was under the impression that Foretelling/Min's Seeing was based on seeing the Pattern in some way.  Shouldn't you be able to undo a Foretelling by Balefiring someone out of the Pattern?

[Jeynhir]

What you're defending is called Determinism.

You believe that,if at one moment,we knew everything about all the atomes in the universe,this Great computer could calculate(with all the correct physical laws)the past and Future.

 

This guy called Lavoisier kinda invented that stuff.

Another one called Heisenberg demonstrated later that the precision with which you know at the same time the speed and position of a particle has a maximum,the Plank constant.

 

So that kinda trashes it =)

 

(sorry if it's bad english,I'm french.)

[RobertAlexWillis]

And, of course, RJ has applied all the limits of the real universe to his fictional world ... like, not being able to make fireballs with your mind.

 

Oh, wait ...

 

Tell you what.  When one of Min's viewings fails to come to pass, then I'll buy this.  Until then, whatever she says, goes.

[aevogt]

Min reads the Pattern.  When she knows, she knows. 

 

She read that Elayne's babies will be born healthy.  Since that is a part of the pattern in the future, it must come to pass.  What ever happens in the interim, Elayne's capture and rescue for instance, is just what had to happen in between and really had no bearing on the viewing.  Even though Elayne seemed to be in danger, from the fate aspect she wasn't.

 

Imagine you are at the top of a tall building.  You can see many things that someone on the ground, from their perspective, cannot see.  Think of Min as standing on the top of a building that cuts across time.  She can see parts of the pattern stretching off in the distance.  Some are clear, and some are not.  That's why when she is sure, that is what is going to happen. 

 

[Dhaos]

Hmm, it seems I was misunderstood by more than one person here.

 

First, my question still remains: If Foretellings are always right, why does the dark bother to fight when their defeat is foretold?

 

Second- in regards to Determinism/Heisenberg- I stated as much.  In a Classical view of physics, Determinism -has- to be right.  But we don't live in a purely classical universe- hence quantum mechanics.  I was saying that it's interesting that RJ, trained in physics, would use Prophecy in his works, and trying to puzzle out how he figured it would work.  Since he did pride himself on having an orderly, consistent universe, I was wondering how he reconciled it with physics- or how he had altered physics in his world to make it work.

 

From RAW:

And, of course, RJ has applied all the limits of the real universe to his fictional world ... like, not being able to make fireballs with your mind.

 

 

Oh, wait ...

 

Hey, no need for sarcasm.  Some limits from the real world are indeed felt in Randland, even applying to usage of the Power.  Channellers cannot make themselves fly with the power- it's described as trying to lift yourself up by your own bootstraps.  That RJ would include this limitation while making a direct allusion to an example used in most first-year physics textbooks is a nod to the idea that a good amount of physics from our world applies in theirs.  Of course, I readily admit that being able to make fireballs with your mind does throw Thermodynamics out the window!

 

From aevogt:

Think of Min as standing on the top of a building that cuts across time.  She can see parts of the pattern stretching off in the distance.

 

From RAW:

Tell you what.  When one of Min's viewings fails to come to pass, then I'll buy this.  Until then, whatever she says, goes.

 

I agree with both of you.  aevogt, I agree with the thought that Min's 'sight' gives her views of the Pattern.  RAW, I also think that we will see all of Min's visions come to pass (they're just too good of a literary device for this not to happen.)

 

But doesn't it seem like the Thread-burning, time-altering affects of Balefire should have a deleterious effect when it comes to Min's visions?  If she really is reading the Pattern- and again, I do think that's what she's doing- couldn't things change drastically when key threads are burned out prematurely?  Isn't this part of why Balefire was banned- the breaking-down of the Pattern?

 

Just interesting thoughts, is all.

 

 

[DuDZiK]

Hmm, it seems I was misunderstood by more than one person here.

 

First, my question still remains: If Foretellings are always right, why does the dark bother to fight when their defeat is foretold?

 

Because their defeat is not strictly foretold. As far as I am aware, the prophecies of the dragon does not say: the dragon reborn will defeat the dark one. It says something more like: the dragon reborn is the only one who CAN defeat the dark one. The prophecies marks a number of events that identify who the dragon reborn will be, and a number of events that will mark the beginning or approachment of Tarmon Gaidon(sp?). It says all of this in a very mysterious, cryptic, and ambiguous manner so that we only ever have a clear idea of what the prophecies mean in hindsight.

[Paviel]

But doesn't it seem like the Thread-burning, time-altering affects of Balefire should have a deleterious effect when it comes to Min's visions?  If she really is reading the Pattern- and again, I do think that's what she's doing- couldn't things change drastically when key threads are burned out prematurely?  Isn't this part of why Balefire was banned- the breaking-down of the Pattern?

 

Maybe balefire only works on the more... superficial... threads in the Pattern. I suspect that while parts of the Pattern are immutable, not all of it is.

 

Come to think of it, the Aelfinn seem to have the same sort of foresight, and if they could foresee Mat dying and living again, then maybe parts of the Pattern NEED balefire... After all, the only way to undo a killing is to balefire the killer.

[Talyn Al Carn]

Because their defeat is not strictly foretold. As far as I am aware, the prophecies of the dragon does not say: the dragon reborn will defeat the dark one. It says something more like: the dragon reborn is the only one who CAN defeat the dark one. The prophecies marks a number of events that identify who the dragon reborn will be, and a number of events that will mark the beginning or approachment of Tarmon Gaidon(sp?). It says all of this in a very mysterious, cryptic, and ambiguous manner so that we only ever have a clear idea of what the prophecies mean in hindsight.

 

He is right the shadows defeat was not foretold,Rand is the only one who can defeat the Dark One,but that does not mean he can not die before the last battle.But I doubt that he will die before the last battle I was just saying that.

[Dhaos]

Hmm, it seems I was misunderstood by more than one person here.

 

First, my question still remains: If Foretellings are always right, why does the dark bother to fight when their defeat is foretold?

 

Because their defeat is not strictly foretold. As far as I am aware, the prophecies of the dragon does not say: the dragon reborn will defeat the dark one. It says something more like: the dragon reborn is the only one who CAN defeat the dark one. The prophecies marks a number of events that identify who the dragon reborn will be, and a number of events that will mark the beginning or approachment of Tarmon Gaidon(sp?). It says all of this in a very mysterious, cryptic, and ambiguous manner so that we only ever have a clear idea of what the prophecies mean in hindsight.

 

Certainly some of the Prophecies can be read as possibilities, but some suggest definite results. 

 

From the Prophecies of the Dragon:

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed. Once for mourning, once for birth. Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul. In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

 

Nicola's Fortelling also suggests some definite actions/ status:

The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.

 

So some of these Foretellings -do- seem to have definite language.  Is this a mistake, part of the artistic license used to make them sound more poetic?  Are prophecies supposed to me more like recipes "IF the Dragon gets Callandor AND the Aiel mark him as Chief AND his blood spills on Shayol Ghul AND etc etc THEN men will be freed from the shadow"?  And if that is the case, can you say a Foretelling is wrong if one of the conditions isn't fulfilled?

 

Come to think of it, the Aelfinn seem to have the same sort of foresight, and if they could foresee Mat dying and living again, then maybe parts of the Pattern NEED balefire... After all, the only way to undo a killing is to balefire the killer.

 

I started thinking about this too, after I posted.  Maybe the Pattern doesn't need Balefire so much as anticipates and corrects for it before it is used?  And if too much is used, the Patten can't fully compensate, and reality screws up?

[Vassili]

Come to think of it, the Aelfinn seem to have the same sort of foresight, and if they could foresee Mat dying and living again, then maybe parts of the Pattern NEED balefire... After all, the only way to undo a killing is to balefire the killer

 

I have a similar idea on this. So far, we don't know what it takes to get "above" the pattern, if it is possible at all. By getting "above" the pattern, I mean excersising control over your fate and/or defeating a prophecy. If Taim were to walk into the royal palace one day and BF elayne, then he would have gotten above the pattern. min, though, says any action you take is not "blocked" by some super natural force to ensure the prophecy comes true, but rather that the prophecy itself knows in advance all that will happen including people's reaction to it, and is telling us in advance how it will all unfold. Consider that some of Min's prophecies only come true because she shares them. For example, she might say someone is going to die today, and so they dont go to work hoping to avoid danger. Well there house burns down killing them, but had they gone to work that day, they would have lived. We don't react to change prophecty and then the pattern alters itself to foil us. The pattern has already been written, and our actions are just part of it. In the case of dream prophecies, the "options" would not really be options, but possible answers to a riddle that already only has one possible answer. We just don't know it yet.

 

However, not every character agrees with this, and not just because they want free will. Moiraine seems to think prophecy can fail if the one spoken of dies. If true, then you CAN get above the pattern, just not easily.

 

As for the DO, he either is trying to do the above, or he already is outside the pattern and is sort of armwrestling it. Of course if that was true, the pattern would have to change to compensate for his free actions, and couldn't be prewritten... therefore prophecy could fail...

 

Basically I don't know if prophecy can fail or not. The books strongly imply it can't (except for moiraine), but if it can't then the DO must be a part of the pattern, and all is predestined. If thats true, and he is an immortal entity who surely knows this, why would he bother fighting?

 

I'm going to guess Elayne can die before her babies are born, and therefore she is stupid. Of course we already know that;)