Gholam, Balefire

[Gentled Ben]

So... to use it for a test? It seems pretty stupid for me. I mean, provided Aginor even thought about balefire given that it proved itself against weaves, seriously risking the destruction of the universe just to find out if it worked? I mean he had to know that almost no one would risk using balefire at that stage.

This is the same Aginor who wove Balefire, risking the existence of the universe, at the Cleansing. <_<

Young King is right, Luckers, you argue simply to argue.

[Luckers]

Wasn't one of the female forsaken almost killed by a gholam? Would a one of the forsaken hesitate to use every weave at their disposal to stay alive; several of their pov's have highlighted the fact that they are unwilling to die for the DO.

 

 

It was Graendal. She says she had a nearly fatal encounter with one.

 

As for why she wouldn't use balefire. For one, she had no reason to suspect it would work. The nature of dissipation was not known in the Age of Legends, so she hardly had time to pause and thing and wonder, well is balefire a weave and an effect.

 

Furthermore, recall that the Forsaken too forsook the use of Balefire given the prospective threat. Between dying and being reborn, and potentially destroying existence, the degree of threat falls in the other favour.

 

So... to use it for a test? It seems pretty stupid for me. I mean, provided Aginor even thought about balefire given that it proved itself against weaves, seriously risking the destruction of the universe just to find out if it worked? I mean he had to know that almost no one would risk using balefire at that stage.

This is the same Aginor who wove Balefire, risking the existence of the universe, at the Cleansing. <_<

Young King is right, Luckers, you argue simply to argue.

 

Three thousand years after the universe nearly collapsed. Yes, that Aginor. Three years after the universe nearly collapsed is a different story entirely. As I stated.

 

You know what mate, attempting to dismiss my opinion as simply confrontational because i disagree with you... thats pathetic. I'm honestly disgusted.

 

 

[Tyrell]

Against the chain of reasoning that says that balefire is the result of a weave and not a weave in its self (as posted on page.. 4 I think). IIRC Lanfear says that she can feel the residues of the Rand-Asmo fight at the end of TSR, no balefire happened then, just a massive OP battle, with Saidin.

[Luckers]

Well, for starters what Lanfear sensed was the residue of the protections placed around Rhuidean, not the residues of Rand's fight with Asmodean.

 

But beyond that I'm not sure what you mean. Why would Lanfear sensing Rand's battle have an influence on balefire?

[Tyrell]

Well, for starters what Lanfear sensed was the residue of the protections placed around Rhuidean, not the residues of Rand's fight with Asmodean.

 

But beyond that I'm not sure what you mean. Why would Lanfear sensing Rand's battle have an influence on balefire?

 

For the first point I stand corrected, to answer the second I quote :

 

1. The OP cannot touch a Gholam

2. Women cannot sense Saidin and Men cannot sense Saidar w/out the use of a TA. (nor can they sense their residues....if you believe that to be true, please provide a quote).

3. Moiraine can sense RA's residue of the use of BF, which logically means it is what results from a weave, not an actual weave itself per se.

4. If BF is a "weapon" created as a result of the weave used to create it, and thus not the actual OP but something created from it, then it should be able to destroy a Gholam in theory.

5. Still leaves the problem of being quick enough to react in the 1/10th of a second that you'd have to try and hit it w/ BF....

 

The argument that balefire is not a weave but the rsult from one seems to hunge on point three, which I have emboldened, my point was that if Lanfear was sensing the residues of the Rand-Asmo fight then the argument would fall apart.

[Luckers]

I still don't really get it, mostly because im confused about the initial point by Bjclinton. Is RA Rand? Moiraine doesn't sense the residue of his balefire, she hears Mat speak of its effects.

 

And in any case, whether balefire is the weave, or the result of a weave, it would still cause residue. And how would Lanfear sensing residue impact on that point?

 

Wait, is the idea that balefire causes a completely different type of residue then the residue of the Power? That had not occured to me, and im still a little confused about the implications... I don't think so though.

[Tyrell]

I was alittle confused too, I think the point was the moiraine could somehow sense that balefire happened, and if it was a weave rather than the result of a weave then she wouldn't have.. maybe.. idunno, my point was if lanfear could sense the weave then that would negate the "it must be the result rather than a weave if moiraine could sense it" point.

 

But I may be wrong, I may not even have understood the original argument.

[Mr Ares]

I still don't really get it, mostly because im confused about the initial point by Bjclinton. Is RA Rand? Moiraine doesn't sense the residue of his balefire, she hears Mat speak of its effects.

 

And in any case, whether balefire is the weave, or the result of a weave, it would still cause residue. And how would Lanfear sensing residue impact on that point?

 

Wait, is the idea that balefire causes a completely different type of residue then the residue of the Power? That had not occured to me, and im still a little confused about the implications... I don't think so though.

Yes, RA is Rand. As for the rest, I believe the point was that women cannot sense the residues of mens weaves, and as Moiraine sensed something she wasn't sensing the residue of a weave but the residue of an effect. So balefire must be an effect because Moiraine sensed something and she only could have done so were there an effect as she can't sense the residue of mens weaves. Does that make things clearer? That said, I don't agree, so don't shoot the messenger.

[Kura]

Heh, it falls apart because we have proof to the contrary. How was Halima found in the camp? Hell, how did they even know that Saidin was used in the murders? Women with the talent went out, got a sniff of the residues, and freaked. Of course, I believe they had to use some sensory weave, but the fact remains that they can sense Saidin's residues.

 

As to the whole Gholam being made up of the OP, well, first of all I find it far more likely to be made of the TP. That being said, the weave wouldn't have to be inverted, at least I don't think so. Can you see the weave for Heartstone, an angreal? The Nym? Still, I feel that the Gholam being a TP Construct makes the most sense, since we can use it to theorize exactly how is weave immunity works. Quite simple, the OP and TP don't want to touch, or can't, much like Saidin and Saidar, and so when you launch the OP at a TP construct that little loophole kicks in, and the weave goes bye-bye.

 

Now, the above paragraph was mostly assumption, but its a pet theory that got the plausible but unlikely stamp by RAW, so I'm happy.  ;)

[YoungKing]

Sigh...

 

I suggested that as the least likely possibility out of a sequence of three, and clearly stated that I did not hold with it. But whilst we are on it, in that sequence of time Rand stumbled accross several powerful weaves that were never used again because he could not remember how. The cloud of lightning that hunted down shadowspawn for instance.

 

I'm at a loss at what you were trying to do with that comment? Cast asperations on me for not using common sense by raising a point that i specifically stated was enourmously unlikely?

 

I quoted that to give an example of you putting out far fetched notions just for arguments sake. If you actually believe that, well...

 

Cute, but deeply inaccurate. The ban of balefire resulted because the effect of balefire grew to the point that the entirety of existence nearly disolved. The ban in particular resulted without any form of discussion thus underlining how calamatous the unravelling of the Age Lace was.

 

And you think it is some way irrelevant to the discussion of why balefire was not then used mere years after? I find I am missing your logic there.

 

I find it funny that you think a channeler, confronted by a gholam or in some other situation where the chance to attack it presents itself, would think twice about using balefire, possibly the most deadly weave known. You compare the use of using balefire to  kill millions of people to one shadowspawn creature. But that's logical right? Of course. It would have the same impact on the Age Lace, a gholam vs a city of millions. Yep, right.

 

I feel it is irrelevant because in that situation a person wouldn't be thinking whether it was OK to use balefire. If it was the only weave or effect that could kill a gholam, it would have been used on them, cease or no cease. Killing six gholam wouldn't in all likely hood probably wouldn't unravel the Age Lace, especially years after the cease of balefire in general.

 

Certainly, and as an aspect of thought it would have occured to them that using balefire again whilst the Pattern was still so unstable is not the wisest of actions.

 

Furthermore, you speak about 'simply killing one thing'. At this stage existence had come so close to unravelling that two sides in a war for their very existence stopped using balefire. There is no 'simply killing one thing' in that state. They didn't cut back on use, they didn't limit the power they put into balefire--they stopped. Both sides, without discussion or any attempt at reasoning.

 

If you simply kill one gholam, that's killing one thing. Years after the drop of balefire, the Age Lace could have been stable enough that a channelers, in these extreme circumstances, would be able to use it to kill a gholam. Of course, you definately know exactly how badly the Age Lace was damaged, how long it takes to right itself, when it could possibly be OK to use balefire in some circumstances.

 

You simply assume Aginor, somewhat of a mad scientist, would not try balefiring one of his creations. We don't know that he wouldn't have tried. I also don't see how balefiring something that was just created and has had no effect on any other people could destroy the universe. What other "weaves" of peoples' lives has it come into contact with?  We also don't know that everybody stopped using balefire. It's just as valid to think that at some times, people still used balefire in small amounts. They are human remember. Just simply throwing out this possibility because it doesn't help prove your point is pathetic.

 

It seems that all your assumptions are automatically right, but if anyone else makes an assumption, even ones that have more sense and reasoning behind them, they are just wrong. Because all-mighty Luckers doesn't think long the same lines, they are wrong.

 

And yeah, I would say that your making an assumption there. In some ways channelers back then were more trained, but the Wonder Girls and Rand have both displayed conciderable level of ingenuity when it comes to the Power exceeding that displayed by the Forsaken, and unless i misremember but the Forsaken have pretty much had their asses handed to them in every single confrontation to date.

 

The only one who has stood one on one with a forsaken has been Nyneave, other than Rand. I'm not going to deny that they are in fact gifted, and also not start an argument about the forsakens' mediocrity, but beyond talents such as dreamwalking, the creation of ter'angreal, cuenlidar(sp), things that are more or less talents, they pale in comparison to what the forsaken or other gifted channelers from the AoL could do with the one power, especially when it comes to violent, destructive, painful, powerful weaves that would have been used on the gholam in that circumstance.

 

Well, for unilateral dismissal like yours, yeah mate you do need cold hard proof. And frankly, even just the establishment of likelyhood seems out of the realm here.

 

You don't think the Light would have put every outlet of thought into the destruction of creatures that are on the surface immune to the OP. If you answer no, well, OK? There's no proof needed there, it's a valid assumption that the Forces of Light, the other great scientists and scholars, would have given everything they had into finding a way to destroy them.

 

Then again, maybe gholam weren't used extensively, perhaps the Forsaken were wary. I can't say for sure, but at least I can admit it.

 

YK.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

As for the rest, I believe the point is that women cannot sense the residues of mens weaves, and as Moiraine sensed something she wasn't sensing the residue of a weave but the residue of an effect.

 

Sorry, Mr Ares, but that is just plain dead wrong.

 

Saith the Jordan:

 

We're told throughout the books that the male channelers get goose bumps whenever the females are channeling or embracing the source. However, it is continuously mentioned that the women don't know if the male Asha'man and Rand are embracing or channeling Saidin. So how does the Red Ajah and Cadsuane, find Male Channelers and then gentle them?

 

There are various ways that the effects of male channeling can be found, weaves that find the resonance of the residues of saidin. Check in Crossroads of Twilight. They do not detect the actual weaves, though, only the residues left after the weave is released. After that, it becomes a matter of detective work. Though perhaps stalking a leopard might be a better metaphor. As for Cadsuane, she has a few more tools at her disposal than other Aes Sedai, the reason for her extremely high success rate. Check Winter's Heart, and a few earlier mentions, for this one.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152 (Emphasis mine)

 

The Aes Sedai do know a method for detecting the residues of saidin.  I didn't bother reading the whole argument here, so I'm not sure what effect that fact will have on people's positions ... but both Moiraine and Lanfear were probably aware of a way to detect the residues of saidin.

[Luckers]

They can detect the residue through an active weave designed to detect the residue, they can't simply see it or sense it even if they have that talent.

 

I quoted that to give an example of you putting out far fetched notions just for arguments sake. If you actually believe that, well...

 

For the third time, I don't believe that explanation. For the third time however, its hardly far fetched since Rand did exactly the same thing several other times around that point, so if you thought you were accomplishing something, i still fail to see it--and i think you do too, since you still avoid the actual points.

 

BTW, why are you being so unpleasent? Does it truly surprise you that someone might disagree with you?

 

I find it funny that you think a channeler, confronted by a gholam or in some other situation where the chance to attack it presents itself, would think twice about using balefire, possibly the most deadly weave known. You compare the use of using balefire to  kill millions of people to one shadowspawn creature. But that's logical right? Of course. It would have the same impact on the Age Lace, a gholam vs a city of millions. Yep, right.

 

Yes, right. I'm glad we finally agree about something.

 

I feel it is irrelevant because in that situation a person wouldn't be thinking whether it was OK to use balefire. If it was the only weave or effect that could kill a gholam, it would have been used on them, cease or no cease. Killing six gholam wouldn't in all likely hood probably wouldn't unravel the Age Lace, especially years after the cease of balefire in general.

 

Actually, the characters--those ones you espoused to have all the experience with channeling--clearly seemed to have thought that using balefire even ONE more time could unravel the Age Lace, so i don't know where your coming from with that comment.

 

And it is not irrelevent because it was not social policy or general armstice that disavowed its use. The ceasation of the use of balefire came because of a percievable calamity, one so bluntly obvious that both sides had to pay immediate attention to it. So yes, that is relevant to the mindset of channelers when it came to its use, even in the midst of a fight to the death. You don't set off a nuclear bomb to avoid being shot.

 

If you simply kill one gholam, that's killing one thing. Years after the drop of balefire, the Age Lace could have been stable enough that a channelers, in these extreme circumstances, would be able to use it to kill a gholam. Of course, you definately know exactly how badly the Age Lace was damaged, how long it takes to right itself, when it could possibly be OK to use balefire in some circumstances.

 

I'm sorry mate, but thats complete suppostition, and suppostition that flies in the face of what the books say, being that neither side used a drop of balefire for the entirety of the war. Hell, after four thousand years Aes sedai still wont use it, and the Dark One has to ASK Demandred if he is willing. That shows how close to calamity it really was. Existence came a hairs breath from collapsing... and you think what... that it all fixed itself within a few days?

 

Do you have any evidence, anything that is even remotely suggestive?

 

And if you don't, what's up with the blanket statements that it must have happened 'plain and simple' and that arguments against it are 'laughable' or 'fanciful notions offered only for the sake of argument'. Those are my opinions which you've done nothing but deride and scorn from the beginning simply because they disagree with you.

 

Well fine, I disagree with you. I've offered my reasons. I don't require your agreement or anything of the sort, but if you dont even have an basis for your position i do require that you don't dismiss mine out of hand. Also stating yours as obvious fact comes accross a little crass too, but i leave that one up to you.

 

You simply assume Aginor, somewhat of a mad scientist, would not try balefiring one of his creations. We don't know that he wouldn't have tried. I also don't see how balefiring something that was just created and has had no effect on any other people could destroy the universe. What other "weaves" of peoples' lives has it come into contact with?  We also don't know that everybody stopped using balefire. It's just as valid to think that at some times, people still used balefire in small amounts. They are human remember. Just simply throwing out this possibility because it doesn't help prove your point is pathetic.

 

Sure, I assume it--or postulate might be a better word. I base my position on the realities stated in the book. That the cumulative effect of balefire was so destructive that existence almost unravelled, and in such an obvious way that everyone know it thus resulting in everyone everywhere simultaniously stopping as one, without discussion, in the middle of a war. I base it on the fact that even four thousand years after this event Aes Sedai still wont use it, and the Dark One has to ASK Demandred. And yes, i include Aginor in that since i know Aginor was one of the Chosen, and they ceased using it... both in big and small amounts, too.

 

Whats the basis for your assumption?

 

It seems that all your assumptions are automatically right, but if anyone else makes an assumption, even ones that have more sense and reasoning behind them, they are just wrong. Because all-mighty Luckers doesn't think long the same lines, they are wrong.

 

Not to go all school yard on you, but it was you that made all the blanket dismissals. I believe you fell back on the logic of 'what you found laughable' and 'what you thought defied common sense'.

 

I disagree with you, and I'm sorry if that offended you, but it happens. I don't require you to agree with me, but I was hardly going to stand around and let you dismiss my entire position as... what was the first one? Purely and simply not true?

 

The only one who has stood one on one with a forsaken has been Nyneave, other than Rand. I'm not going to deny that they are in fact gifted, and also not start an argument about the forsakens' mediocrity, but beyond talents such as dreamwalking, the creation of ter'angreal, cuenlidar(sp), things that are more or less talents, they pale in comparison to what the forsaken or other gifted channelers from the AoL could do with the one power, especially when it comes to violent, destructive, painful, powerful weaves that would have been used on the gholam in that circumstance.

 

See, that I'm fine with. Very different to "laughing at the suggestion". I still think that there is a difference between training and talent, a difference that has shown itself ultimately in all the confrontations the shadow and the light have had in the Third Age, but thats not really disagreement--mostly circumstance i imagine.

 

You don't think the Light would have put every outlet of thought into the destruction of creatures that are on the surface immune to the OP. If you answer no, well, OK? There's no proof needed there, it's a valid assumption that the Forces of Light, the other great scientists and scholars, would have given everything they had into finding a way to destroy them.

 

 

Of course I think the Light would have tried everything in its Power to find a way to destroy them, but this was not occuring within a vacuum. Using balefire, with the risk it entailed at that time, to off something which was, relatively speaking, only a threat to individuals not the cause is simply not a viable option... to my mind, anyway.

 

 

[Arath Faringal]

Not to randomly change the subject, but what would happen to a Gholam going through a gateway?  Would they simply die like Trollocs/Myrdraal as Rand stated?  Deathgates might be an effective way of slaying one.  Assuming you can get it to hold still long enough of course.

[YoungKing]

Well then let us agree to disagree. I wouldn't put it past some of the Forsaken or dreadlords to at some point have used balefire, after the effects of the Age Lace died down. From reading the books, same as you, I didn't get the impression that one more person using balefire would be the end of the world. That's just not what I got.

 

And it is not irrelevent because it was not social policy or general armstice that disavowed its use. The ceasation of the use of balefire came because of a percievable calamity, one so bluntly obvious that both sides had to pay immediate attention to it. So yes, that is relevant to the mindset of channelers when it came to its use, even in the midst of a fight to the death.

 

You are commenting on what the mindset of the channelers would be. That is also supposition. This whole argument is basically supposition. You can't say what a channeler in a fictional world would possibly think when faced against a gholam.

 

Actually, the characters--those ones you espoused to have all the experience with channeling--clearly seemed to have thought that using balefire even ONE more time could unravel the Age Lace, so i don't know where your coming from with that comment.

 

Well I'd need a quote, though don't bother getting one, it's not that important. Like I said earlier, I got something different out of it.

 

And if you don't, what's up with the blanket statements that it must have happened 'plain and simple' and that arguments against it are 'laughable' or 'fanciful notions offered only for the sake of argument'. Those are my opinions which you've done nothing but deride and scorn from the beginning simply because they disagree with you.

 

Concerning this with what I've said about if a gholam would have been balefired already, yes I believe it would have been plain ad simple. I believe that gholam(s) would have gone through basically everything OP related that could harm them, including balefire. That's my belief. I find the notion that nobody over the course of histroy would not have used balefire once against one. To me thisis common sense, and I argued against it based on what I believed to be common sense. Perhaps that was unbecoming of me, but I'm not the first to do so.

 

Sure, I assume it--or postulate might be a better word. I base my position on the realities stated in the book. That the cumulative effect of balefire was so destructive that existence almost unravelled, and in such an obvious way that everyone know it thus resulting in everyone everywhere simultaniously stopping as one, without discussion, in the middle of a war. I base it on the fact that even four thousand years after this event Aes Sedai still wont use it, and the Dark One has to ASK Demandred. And yes, i include Aginor in that since i know Aginor was one of the Chosen, and they ceased using it... both in big and small amounts, too.

 

Whats the basis for your assumption?

 

The basis for my argument that someone during that time might have used balefire comes from knowing that Moiraine, knowing that balefire was forbidden, still used it in dire circumstances. She knew if it was found out, she could have been in really hot water, yet in dire circumstances she used it. Obviously, it is not in the same concerning the possibility of the Age Lace unravelling, which you cling to, but knowing the consequences she still used it. For me this comes down to the fact that humans are human, and sometimes don't make the greatest decisions.

 

I'm sorry mate, but thats complete suppostition, and suppostition that flies in the face of what the books say, being that neither side used a drop of balefire for the entirety of the war. Hell, after four thousand years Aes sedai still wont use it, and the Dark One has to ASK Demandred if he is willing. That shows how close to calamity it really was. Existence came a hairs breath from collapsing... and you think what... that it all fixed itself within a few days?

 

I see your point, but not at all did I suggest within days, I suggested that years later it may have been used, unknown to anyone really important. While I can't prove this, other than suggest what I said about Moiraine as an example, neither can you say for certain nobody ever used balefire.

 

You just come across as very argumentative. I know I'm not the only one who sees it, but I'll argue back. I can't address every point you made, it's Christmas eve, but overall, I feel that a gholam has already been balefired.

 

YK.

 

 

 

[bjclinton]

I still don't really get it, mostly because im confused about the initial point by Bjclinton. Is RA Rand? Moiraine doesn't sense the residue of his balefire, she hears Mat speak of its effects.

 

 

 

Yes, RA = Rand Al'Thor....

 

the part that i was talking about was when Moiraine walks in on Rand after he kills the Darkhounds in the House of the Maidens of the spears....she walks in and (to paraphrase) "I can still sense the residue's of what you have done here..." and goes on to tell him how dangerous it is.

 

She knew EXACTLY what it was, making me think that she sensed Balefire, not flows of Saiden.

 

Either way, RAW's post about RJ's quote with women being able to somehow identify the residue of certain weaves makes it a little more interesting, but i still believe based on what we've seen that BF is the result of a weave and not an actual weave itself  ;)

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

She knew EXACTLY what it was, making me think that she sensed Balefire, not flows of Saiden.

 

This does not necessarily mean that she sensed Balefire.  She sensed that the power had been used. A pack of Hellhounds were no longer attacking Rand. About the only thing that can kill a hellhound is balefire. Ergo Rand used balefire, its called using deductive logic.

[Luckers]

Well then let us agree to disagree. I wouldn't put it past some of the Forsaken or dreadlords to at some point have used balefire, after the effects of the Age Lace died down. From reading the books, same as you, I didn't get the impression that one more person using balefire would be the end of the world. That's just not what I got.

 

And I've got no problem with that... I'm just saying, I got differently.

 

You are commenting on what the mindset of the channelers would be. That is also supposition. This whole argument is basically supposition. You can't say what a channeler in a fictional world would possibly think when faced against a gholam.

 

Certainly, but it is suppostition based on what the texts suggest, rather then purely on what you think they would think. The texts state that balefire nearly destroyed the universe resulting in all channelers to simultaniously give up its use. *shrug*

 

In any case, my point is merely that the argument that if balefire worked it would have been tried is not justification for the unilateral dismissal of balefire as a prospective weapon against Gholam since quite clearly there is more than enough suggesting that balefire was not used.

 

The whole point it made void by the obscurity which you speak of.

 

Quote

Actually, the characters--those ones you espoused to have all the experience with channeling--clearly seemed to have thought that using balefire even ONE more time could unravel the Age Lace, so i don't know where your coming from with that comment.

 

Well I'd need a quote, though don't bother getting one, it's not that important. Like I said earlier, I got something different out of it.

 

And thats fair enough. But if you do want the quotes, i'll get them for you.

 

Concerning this with what I've said about if a gholam would have been balefired already, yes I believe it would have been plain ad simple. I believe that gholam(s) would have gone through basically everything OP related that could harm them, including balefire. That's my belief. I find the notion that nobody over the course of histroy would not have used balefire once against one. To me thisis common sense, and I argued against it based on what I believed to be common sense. Perhaps that was unbecoming of me, but I'm not the first to do so.

 

Again, fair enough, but I was just saying tht i dont think it common sense to assume that. There are countless reasons balefire would not have been tried in that brief period that the Gholam were active. The risks of balefire at the time, the assumption that the One Power immunity would cover balefire--hell even simply not thinking to use it.

 

All that i ask is some consideration in your posting. I'm not opposing you simply because its something to do, im opposing you because i genuinely feel differently than you. And if I got snappy, I'm sorry--but again, I do think you are wrong, and assuming that that comes merely because im argumentative--which I am--would be very silly.

 

The basis for my argument that someone during that time might have used balefire comes from knowing that Moiraine, knowing that balefire was forbidden, still used it in dire circumstances. She knew if it was found out, she could have been in really hot water, yet in dire circumstances she used it. Obviously, it is not in the same concerning the possibility of the Age Lace unravelling, which you cling to, but knowing the consequences she still used it. For me this comes down to the fact that humans are human, and sometimes don't make the greatest decisions.

 

But mate, there is a difference in consequences between being in 'hot water' with her sisters, and risking the destruction of reality. I understand your position, but these people nearly destroyed their universe using this weave. You must admit that that would have an indelible impression on them even in the face of death. I mean Cadsuane's slap gave Rand pause, how much would the slap of the Universe pause you?

 

I see your point, but not at all did I suggest within days, I suggested that years later it may have been used, unknown to anyone really important. While I can't prove this, other than suggest what I said about Moiraine as an example, neither can you say for certain nobody ever used balefire.

 

I was being sarcastic in that comment. I do maintain given the Aes sedai and the issue with Demandred that the situation remained critical for years.

 

You just come across as very argumentative. I know I'm not the only one who sees it, but I'll argue back. I can't address every point you made, it's Christmas eve, but overall, I feel that a gholam has already been balefired.

 

I am argumentative--hell im the debates and discussions moderator. Surely that gives you some hint about my nature. But you saying that that was the only basis for me opposing you was offensive--and furthermore crass.

I still don't really get it, mostly because im confused about the initial point by Bjclinton. Is RA Rand? Moiraine doesn't sense the residue of his balefire, she hears Mat speak of its effects.

 

 

 

Yes, RA = Rand Al'Thor....

 

the part that i was talking about was when Moiraine walks in on Rand after he kills the Darkhounds in the House of the Maidens of the spears....she walks in and (to paraphrase) "I can still sense the residue's of what you have done here..." and goes on to tell him how dangerous it is.

 

She knew EXACTLY what it was, making me think that she sensed Balefire, not flows of Saiden.

 

Either way, RAW's post about RJ's quote with women being able to somehow identify the residue of certain weaves makes it a little more interesting, but i still believe based on what we've seen that BF is the result of a weave and not an actual weave itself  ;)

 

Yeah I get it better now. I was being dense

 

 

And just for clarity, i never had an issue with you saying you thought that, I had an issue with you saying that must obviously be the case and anyone who disagree was laughable. I disagreed, and I don't do well with being laughed at.

[rd2000]

Actually, two forsaken have used balefire. Rahvin did in his fight against Rand in Caemlyn. Moridin used balefire at the same time Rand did when they crossed their streams....ala Ghostbusters....in Shadar Logoth.

[Luckers]

When did Rahvin use balefire? I don't have an issue with it, ive just honestly forgotten?

[RobertAlexWillis]

In Tel'aran'rhiod, Rahvin and Rand were shooting balefire back and forth at each other repeatedly.

 

I imagine that the consequences of balefire aren't quite as dire in T'A'R as they are in the "real" world ... collateral damage is much less ... permanent ... and the population is a lot lower, meaning fewer incidental casualties (like all of Nynaeve's rowers, later in Ebou Dar).

[rd2000]

Make that three, I forgot about Moggy's attempt on Nyn's life.

[stoneface]

Let's get back to what we know about the gholam.  There is even some gholam POV to help understand it.  1.  Although the gholam is a very capable weapon that is difficult to kill, it prefers to kill an isolated and surprised opponent (the command not expose itself seems to cause it additional restraint, but does not seem to be against its general nature).  This indicates that it does have vulnerabilities.  It wants to eliminate its target without damage to itself, although we see it as able to shrug off Saidar and stabbing.  2.  It is stated that six gholam were made, but only one is known to be around (I think this one was found in a stasis box), so evidently the others were destroyed or died/deteriorated.  I don't recall any mention of how any of the other five were destroyed.  3.  The gholam is following specific orders to kill some individuals (orders from a Forsaken, and it doesn't care which).  4.  The gholam enjoys killing, but particularly enjoys killing female channelers.  5.  As far as I can recall, this gholam has only faced/dissolved saidar attacks, and has not faced saidin.  6.  The gholam is obedient to its orders, but is concerned about its own existence.

 

So, is this gholam vulnerable to saidin?  Is it vulnerable to some types of saidar attacks that rely on the effect?  This one was apparently made to take out female channelers use stealth, surprise, and extreme physical force; it can shrug off saidar weaves.  It looks like a man, but strikes before a channeler can adapt to the knowledge that the thing is a gholam.  In the text, the gholam destroys the Kin (female channelers, who would probably try using Air) and soldiers (shrugging off wounds) with ease, but flees when it finds that Mat can hurt it (with the medallion).  Despite its abilities, it does not follow up on its initial victory. 

 

Maybe this is because it could have terminated the entire Ebou Dar group, so it had to be given some constraints; maybe a decapitation would do it in.  Anyway, the gholam can be killed, but its attacks are always on its own terms and when it is very sure of itself.

[bjclinton]

Quote:

 

She knew EXACTLY what it was, making me think that she sensed Balefire, not flows of Saiden.

 

This does not necessarily mean that she sensed Balefire.  She sensed that the power had been used. A pack of Hellhounds were no longer attacking Rand. About the only thing that can kill a hellhound is balefire. Ergo Rand used balefire, its called using deductive logic.

 

She was very clear- I just reread it...she didn't sense residue from Saidin, she said "I know what you have done here- I can still sense it..." and then attempts to warn him of its dangers.

I know what you have done here. Not "I assume", or "I suspect" or "I logically deduce what you have done here"  ;D

 

Unless it was an oversight in the wording, its very obvious with how this scene plays out (based on dialogue) that she senses Balefire and not weaves of Saidin.

 

(ill have to pull the book out again and find the exact wording....unless someone else has it close by?)

 

In any event....other than trying to disect words from a scene that I have identified as supporting my theory, I was wondering if anyone is able to find a scene/quote that supports the theory that BF is an actual weave? I'm not so hung up on my theory to turn a blind eye to all other options, but I just haven't seen any other scene that (in my opinion) displays that its an effect and not a weave....

 

[Tyrell]

mm it tends to just be "xyz wove balefire" "rand began to weave balefire, remembered getting slapped by caddy and got ridda everything but fire and shot some arrows of fire about" etc.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

She was very clear- I just reread it...she didn't sense residue from Saidin, she said "I know what you have done here- I can still sense it..." and then attempts to warn him of its dangers.

I know what you have done here. Not "I assume", or "I suspect" or "I logically deduce what you have done here" 

 

I know that you do not want to hear it but most people use wors like I assume, I understand, I believe, I know, I sense, etc. interchangibly without thinking of the differences in meaning. I had a professor who constantly kept badgering at us that he did not care what we "believed", "felt' or "deduced" the facts to be he wanted our opinion as to what the facts, as given to us, meant.