What Will Happen With The White Tower?

[trakand_01]

I see, i remember that now. She's posing as Elmindreda and... Theodrin? comes to collect her and take her to Siuan.

 

I think the things she sees could come to pass at any time, or may have done so already. The only thing which suggests fighting in Tar Valon or the WT is the servants. Sheriam we know is already bruised and battered.

 

 

[Tyrell]

Egwene's dream could just have been a nightmare / wasn't she being manipulated by Aran'gar at the time? And of course, if it really is a prophetic dream it's only a possibility and not a certainty like a fortelling. I seem to recall RJ mentioning that the more unbound the pattern is becomming the less likely to be true foretellings / viewings etc. are becomming.

 

I'm more interested in the two juxtaposed dreams; one where she is climbing and falls and a seanchan woman with a sword reaches down to save her saying something like "we can make it together", and the other where she sees the a white flame attacked by ravens and spewing out loads of little flames, some of which die. I like to interpret it as a choice / an 'if' eg. one choice - take the seanchan woman's hand / don't and this will be the consequence - white tower attacked, Aes Sedai killed & scattered. I dunno which is which though, I mean, is it her refusing to take the woman's hand that leads to the attack, or would it be taking the outstretched hand that leads to the attack.

[Ahaz Flagg]

  Thank you Mr Ares for bringing those out,  time alters how we see things :).  Not one thing has changed my mind that the WT will be attacked before TG.  The dream Tyrell wrote, I am sure has to do with the impending battle of the White Tower.  And I think it it refers to Tuon and Egwene working together, while I may be wrong, I feel that is the most logical interpetation of Egwenes dream. 

 

  The White Tower will be whole before TG, Rand will and must face Egwene or Elidia, Elidia had a foretelling, and there simply is no proof whatsoever to gain say that Elidia's foretelling is false. In fact, any true foretelling is always true.

 

  If Rand, dies during TG, how will he face the Amyrilyn?  Does anyone here think that Rand will go to the White Tower if Elidia is in charge?.

 

 

[Thunderbomb]

I am predicting Egwene and Logain rule together Amyrlin and Tamyrlin also something that has never happened before

Of course it has never happened before. Why the hell would Logain call himself Tamyrlin? The title of Amyrlin is a corruption of Tamyrlin, after the Ring of Tamyrlin which was worn by the leader of the AS in the Age of Legends. We don't know if "Tamyrlin" was ever used as a title, we don't know if anyone even remembers the word, so why the hell would Logain use it as his title, when he could be M'Hael, which is a title with some backing in the series.

 

 

Why would Logain want to use M'Hael, a corrupted title created by Mazrim Taim that we all know Logain dislikes with a passion.

 

So I used the wrong title Mr.Ares and I admit that but I ask you, why would Logain want to use the title Taim created? When clearly they would love to have a chance at each others throats.

[Tyrell]

"M'Hael" is not corrupted. It means "Leader" in the Old Tongue.

 

Tamyrlin on the other hand is a word which has been corrupted into Amyrlin.

[Zachary]

I am predicting Egwene and Logain rule together Amyrlin and Tamyrlin also something that has never happened before

Of course it has never happened before. Why the hell would Logain call himself Tamyrlin? The title of Amyrlin is a corruption of Tamyrlin, after the Ring of Tamyrlin which was worn by the leader of the AS in the Age of Legends. We don't know if "Tamyrlin" was ever used as a title, we don't know if anyone even remembers the word, so why the hell would Logain use it as his title, when he could be M'Hael, which is a title with some backing in the series.

 

 

Why would Logain want to use M'Hael, a corrupted title created by Mazrim Taim that we all know Logain dislikes with a passion.

 

So I used the wrong title Mr.Ares and I admit that but I ask you, why would Logain want to use the title Taim created? When clearly they would love to have a chance at each others throats.

 

Precisely for that reason. What better way to defeat an enemy then to depose someone and take his title for your own? You read how that just ate at Siuan, right?

Egwene's dream could just have been a nightmare / wasn't she being manipulated by Aran'gar at the time? And of course, if it really is a prophetic dream it's only a possibility and not a certainty like a fortelling. I seem to recall RJ mentioning that the more unbound the pattern is becomming the less likely to be true foretellings / viewings etc. are becomming.

 

I'm more interested in the two juxtaposed dreams; one where she is climbing and falls and a seanchan woman with a sword reaches down to save her saying something like "we can make it together", and the other where she sees the a white flame attacked by ravens and spewing out loads of little flames, some of which die. I like to interpret it as a choice / an 'if' eg. one choice - take the seanchan woman's hand / don't and this will be the consequence - white tower attacked, Aes Sedai killed & scattered. I dunno which is which though, I mean, is it her refusing to take the woman's hand that leads to the attack, or would it be taking the outstretched hand that leads to the attack.

 

If your first paragraph is referencing this dream:

 

She had dreamed of the Seanchan, too, of women in dresses with lightning bolts woven on their breasts, collaring a long line of women who wore Great Serpent rings, forcing them to call lightning against the White Tower.

 

It was in tDR, far before they introduced Aran'gar in that body. Got my book and confirmed it, too.

 

I like your thoughts in the second paragraph. I'm afraid I don't remember that dream, though.

 

And Tyrell, I think he means corrupted by the way Taim has used it, not by the word itself.

[Tyrell]

Yes my first paragraph did reference the part you bold'ed. I had no idea whatsoever where it was from :)

 

To be honest, if it is in TDR I figure it as a nightmare, rather than a true dream. She hadn't been properly trained at that point, and only recently escaped from being leashed herself, something that screwed her up pretty bad, I may even go as far as to use the word traumatised.

[Mr Ares]

I had no idea whatsoever where it was from :)

It did say:

She had dreamed of the Seanchan, too, of women in dresses with lightning bolts woven on their breasts, collaring a long line of women who wore Great Serpent rings, forcing them to call lightning against the White Tower.

 

- The Dragon Reborn, Questions

Book and chapter, same with all those I posted. As for whether it's a nightmare or not, we'll have to wait and see.

 

Why would Logain want to use M'Hael, a corrupted title created by Mazrim Taim that we all know Logain dislikes with a passion.

 

So I used the wrong title Mr.Ares and I admit that but I ask you, why would Logain want to use the title Taim created? When clearly they would love to have a chance at each others throats.

You used the wrong title again, it's Mr Ares, there is no full stop after the r in Mr, so why do people keep adding one? And how the hell is M'Hael a corrupted title? Taim isn't a nice guy, and his training methods are hard, but the title is hardly corrupted yet. When all the Darkfriends in the BT rise, with him at their head, it may be corrupted, but not yet. And he could do it to rub it in. If he chooses a new title, it will be just that. New.

 

Tyrell, are these the ones you were talking about?

She [Egwene] was climbing another path along a cliff shrouded in clouds, but this was a broad ledge of smoothly paved white stone, and there were no rocks underfoot. The cliff itself was chalky white and as smooth as if polished. Despite the clouds, the pale stone almost gleamed. She climbed quickly and soon realised that the ledge was spiralling around. The cliff was actually a spire. No sooner did that thought occur than she was standing on the top of it, a flat polished disc walled by mist. Not quite flat though. A small white plinth stood centred in that circle, supporting an oil-lamp made of clear glass. The flame on that lamp burned bright and steady, without flickering. It was white too.

 

Suddenly a pair of birds flashed out of the mist, two ravens as black as night. Streaking across the spire-top, they struck the lamp and flew on without so much as a pause. The lamp spun and wobbled, dancing around atop the plinth, flinging off droplets of oil. Some of those drops caught fire in midair and vanished. Others fell around the short column, each supporting a tiny flickering white flame. And the lamp continued to wobble on the edge of falling.

 

Egwene woke in darkness with a jolt. She knew. For the first time, she knew exactly what a dream meant…the Seanchan attacking the White Tower. An attack that would shake the Aes Sedai to their core and threaten the Tower itself. Of course, it was only a possibility. But the events seen in true dreams were more likely than other possibilities.

 

- Crossroads of Twilight, In The Night

She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounded her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. She had to place her feet very carefully. The path was a cracked ledge barely wide enough for her to stand on with one shoulder pressed against the cliff, a ledge littered with stones as large as her fist that could turn under a misplaced step and send her hurtling over the edge. It almost seemed this was like the dreams of pushing millstones and pulling carts, yet she knew it was a true dream.

 

Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. Her fingertips slid into a tiny crevice, and her fall stopped with a jolt that wrenched her arms. Feet dangling into the clouds, she listened to the falling stone crash against the cliff until the sound faded to nothing without the stone ever hitting the ground. Dimly, she could see the broken ledge to her left. Ten feet away, it might as well have been a mile off for all the chance she had of reaching it. In the other direction, the mists hid whatever remained of the path, but she thought it had to be farther away still. There was no strength in her arms. She could not pull herself up, only hand there by her fingertips until she fell. The edge of the crevice seemed as sharp as a knife under her fingers.

 

Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene’s level and held out one hand. “We can reach the top together,” she said in a familiar drawling accent…

 

She had dreamed of a Seanchan before, a Seanchan woman somehow tied to her, but this was a Seanchan who would save her.

 

- Crossroads of Twilight, In The Night

All this stuff about the Seanchan attacking the Tower though, seems like it may fit together with the one you dismissed as a nightmare, wouldn't you say?

[Ahaz Flagg]

A nightmare? no way!!  It was dreamer's dream, even at the beginning when she suspected only she was a dreamer she could somewhat tell if it was a normal dream or a dreamers dream.  by the time she had that dream, she could tell the 2 apart.

[Tyrell]

I had no idea whatsoever where it was from :)

It did say:

She had dreamed of the Seanchan, too, of women in dresses with lightning bolts woven on their breasts, collaring a long line of women who wore Great Serpent rings, forcing them to call lightning against the White Tower.

 

- The Dragon Reborn, Questions

Oops. Skim-skim-skiiim reading makes you miss things.

Tyrell, are these the ones you were talking about?

Yes my theory was something like this ->

 

This dream comes first chronologically:

She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounded her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. She had to place her feet very carefully. The path was a cracked ledge barely wide enough for her to stand on with one shoulder pressed against the cliff, a ledge littered with stones as large as her fist that could turn under a misplaced step and send her hurtling over the edge. It almost seemed this was like the dreams of pushing millstones and pulling carts, yet she knew it was a true dream.

 

Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. Her fingertips slid into a tiny crevice, and her fall stopped with a jolt that wrenched her arms. Feet dangling into the clouds, she listened to the falling stone crash against the cliff until the sound faded to nothing without the stone ever hitting the ground. Dimly, she could see the broken ledge to her left. Ten feet away, it might as well have been a mile off for all the chance she had of reaching it. In the other direction, the mists hid whatever remained of the path, but she thought it had to be farther away still. There was no strength in her arms. She could not pull herself up, only hand there by her fingertips until she fell. The edge of the crevice seemed as sharp as a knife under her fingers.

 

Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene’s level and held out one hand. “We can reach the top together,” she said in a familiar drawling accent…

 

She had dreamed of a Seanchan before, a Seanchan woman somehow tied to her, but this was a Seanchan who would save her.

 

- Crossroads of Twilight, In The Night

 

She then pushes it away,

 

Egwene pushed the dream away as she would have a viper. <snip> No! They had put a leash on her, made her damane. She would as soon die as be saved by a Seanchan. <snip> Not a Seanchan; never that!

that then leads into this dream:

 

She [Egwene] was climbing another path along a cliff shrouded in clouds, but this was a broad ledge of smoothly paved white stone, and there were no rocks underfoot. The cliff itself was chalky white and as smooth as if polished. Despite the clouds, the pale stone almost gleamed. She climbed quickly and soon realised that the ledge was spiralling around. The cliff was actually a spire. No sooner did that thought occur than she was standing on the top of it, a flat polished disc walled by mist. Not quite flat though. A small white plinth stood centred in that circle, supporting an oil-lamp made of clear glass. The flame on that lamp burned bright and steady, without flickering. It was white too.

 

Suddenly a pair of birds flashed out of the mist, two ravens as black as night. Streaking across the spire-top, they struck the lamp and flew on without so much as a pause. The lamp spun and wobbled, dancing around atop the plinth, flinging off droplets of oil. Some of those drops caught fire in midair and vanished. Others fell around the short column, each supporting a tiny flickering white flame. And the lamp continued to wobble on the edge of falling.

 

Egwene woke in darkness with a jolt. She knew. For the first time, she knew exactly what a dream meant…the Seanchan attacking the White Tower. An attack that would shake the Aes Sedai to their core and threaten the Tower itself. Of course, it was only a possibility. But the events seen in true dreams were more likely than other possibilities.

 

- Crossroads of Twilight, In The Night

 

I believe it is her "pushing away" the dream, denying it, that causes the second. As in "as you refused to ( probably metaphorically ) take the Seanchan woman's hand, this isw what is going to happen <second dream goes here"

[Zachary]

The dream from tDR is much more unsettling than the other two dreams. By the way, thanks for posting those, Mr Ares. The dream from tDR more than implies that many Aes Sedai will be captured and forced to attack the White Tower.

 

Which actually could indicate that the attack will occur before the rebellion is finished, and they capture many of the Aes Sedai that are besieging the Tower. That's the only way I can see them collaring the amount of Aes Sedai implied in the dream. If not, they can only get a few Aes Sedai they get lucky in capturing, which doesn't seem quite right to the tone of the dream.

 

And that would certainly cause the Tower to shake to it's core, so many Aes Sedai falling under the Seanchan's control, even if half of them escape. And it could concievably be just such an attack that would still Carlinya and cause her to be made property.

 

I believe it is her "pushing away" the dream, denying it, that causes the second. As in "as you refused to ( probably metaphorically ) take the Seanchan woman's hand, this isw what is going to happen <second dream goes here"

 

That certainly makes sense. By being so averse to the dream of cooperating with a Seanchan, that would make the dream of an attack more likely. And as has been mentioned, dreams are the most likely events to come to pass, but not certain.

[DuDZiK]

Correct me if I am wrong, but dreaming is not the same as foretelling in that there is no guarantee that it will happen, or happen exactly as she sees it. Of course, RJ probably wouldn't have such foreshadowing unless he meant for something along those lines to happen.

 

Still, there's still the 'unstained' tower vision/dream/foretelling... unless that happens before the Seanchan attack.

[Zachary]

Just so. The Wise Ones make a point of that in tSR, at the slope where they await Rand and the others to return from Rhuidean. Amys talks about how they saw Moiraine coming without Lan, and her going into Rhuidean, but also the consequences if she didn't.

[aevogt]

Here are the viewings I found concerning captive Aes Sedai  

 

Another Aes Sedai - chains in the air around her.

     This first could be one of the AS that were bonded by Logains faction.  I think chains would be too strong to indicate swearing fealty.  Although to an AS it might not be too strong.

 

Yet another Aes Sedai - a silver collar around her neck.

    We don't know who this AS is.

 

Carlinya - an image of a raven floating beside her dark hair; more a drawing of the bird than the bird itself. She thought it was a tattoo, but she did not know its meaning.

     Carlinya will become Da Covale.  Likely in the attack on the tower.  I think this will be before TG.  I've said otherwise elsewhere but have abandoned that idea.  We already know that Tuon plans to make TV her capital city and she is very ambitious.  Getting married to Mat has changed nothing about her.

 

Edesina - a silvery collar suddenly appeared, snug around the woman's neck, and as suddenly seemed to shatter. She did not like viewings connected to the Seanchan. At least Edesina would escape somehow.

     Edesina has already been set free by Mat

 

Egwene's Dreams

"Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan."   The sword the Seanchan woman carries in Egwene's dream never wavers even though the face does.I think this woman is Egeanin, now Leilwin.

 

So here's a thought.

 

Tuon winds up collared, probably by Egwene or one of her cronies.  Since Tuon never, ever, breaks her word (kind of like Mat, interesting they wind up married) she agrees to free any damane who wish to be freed (some won't) and to never collar another.  Except maybe darkfriends, because who would have a problem with that?

 

Perrin's dream about the Tower

"Egwene and a woman with long white hair were staring at him in surprise while behind them the White Tower crumbled stone by stone."

     The woman with long white hair could be Amys or Bair.  Does the white tower crumbling stone by stone mean a literal destruction (Seanchan attack) or is it more figurative, the destruction of the "seperate from, and above the rest of humanity" mentality that plagues the initiates of the existing tower.  Something Egwene has said she wants to end.

 

I think both Towers are going to be destroyed.  The white tower to the Seanchan and the black tower to the war between Logain and Taim that we know is coming.  

Egwene and logain will come out on top and form a single tower.  Remember, logain owes Egwene everything he has.  She is the one who gives the order to set him free after he was healed.  He has shown himself to be a man of honor, not just a nobleman, and will remember that.

 

 

 

[Zachary]

Here's a theory about Logain's glory. A hero's death, fighting a losing battle against Taim, could be viewed as a gloryful future for Logain. Glory can be attained in many ways. The last stand of Manetheren has glory, but it was the death of a nation.

 

Just wanted to mention that, since I saw so many Logain and Egwene forging a new tower type of posts.

[Ahaz Flagg]

Not bad at all Aevogt, very beleiveable.

[Zachary]

I don't think Tuon would be so malleable, however. It would take a lot of convincing for Tuon to be convinced to give up the Seanchan's essential source of military power. Not only that, but she sincerely believes that marath'damane should be chained. It would take a lot to change her mind. And I doubt torture would change how she feels at all, or make her release the damane. I just can't see her releasing them just bbecause she gets captured.

[aevogt]

I don't think Tuon would be so malleable, however. It would take a lot of convincing for Tuon to be convinced to give up the Seanchan's essential source of military power. Not only that, but she sincerely believes that marath'damane should be chained. It would take a lot to change her mind. And I doubt torture would change how she feels at all, or make her release the damane. I just can't see her releasing them just bbecause she gets captured.

 

Tuon IS mareth Damane.  She won't just be captured, she'll be collared.  She trains damane and that means she can learn to channel.  A collar on her neck and she doesn't need to be tortured.  Just given a taste of what it means to be collared. 

 

I just ahd a thought.  What about the prophecy that Rand will bind the nine moons to him.  That screams "collar"  to me.  Too trite?

[Zachary]

It seems more like binding them with an oath.

 

Although an alliance is most certainly a type of binding, so there may be no servitude involved, as the phrase seems to imply.

[Ahaz Flagg]

Bind the nine moons, I wonder if that is literal.  With Tuon being able to Channel, and if she can be collared, it is possible.  Although not the best way to begin a new friendship.

[Cari an Imsoen]

I also think that both the WT and BT are going to be destroyed. Although "sisters walk it's grounds" the BT has yet to be "rent in fire and blood". And the WT is practically dead from the inside as it is. When Elaida fortells that tower will be stronger than ever...i think this refers to the "tower" as in Aes Sedai, not the physical White Tower building, and with Egwene's dream about the white flame being scattered, with some flames being snuffed out implies a period of fracture before being reunited. Eventually, the AS, Asha'man, Kin, windfinders, wise ones, etc form a new, stonger "tower" organization. 

 

Another theory of mine is that Narisshma is a better candidate for M'heal than Logain once Taim is taken care of. I think Logain is more likely to wind up as compost before Memory of Light is over. But who can tell?

 

EDIT: D'oh! Forgot about Min's viewing of Logain. Oh well. Still...

[Zachary]

Ha, didn't read my post about Logain, it seems. Glory can mean an awful lot of things, and dying attempting to flush the darkfriends out of the Black Tower would certainly have glory, as would dying protecting Rand, for example pushing him out of the way of Balefire and getting hit instead.

 

Glory doesn't equate survival.

 

I'd just like to point that out, since it means that theories where Logain dies are just as valid as theories with him alive. Min repeatedly says she doesn't know how he'll achieve that glory, just that he will, and there's no reason to believe it can't be glory that's given postmortem.