Mat's Luck

[Baldar]

Well, that sucks. I guess I don't like Mat as much as I thought.

 

Seems there's always something that tries to kill some part of the series that I enjoy. The more that's "revealed", the more I grow apathetic towards each of the characters.

[DuDZiK]

It was exposure to the dagger, not its removal, that gave him his luck.  Mat has discovered his luck with dice in TGH, ch 3, while the boys are still at Fal Dara, before he ever blew the Horn.

 

The luck was left behind ... and possibly amplified ... by Mat's Healing, but it was there before the Horn was blown.

 

I always thought that Mat was lucky because he was ta'varen. Did he not say in Hunt for the Horn that he always was lucky, but that it was just now becoming even better at times? Seems to me this is just his being ta'varen coming into full blossom. After all, it was also around this time that Rand being ta'varen was made much more evident, so too with Perrin.

 

They all started becoming more and more obviously ta'varen around the same time, after all, so I don't think it has anything to do with either the Horn or the dagger.

[Majsju]

 

I always thought that Mat was lucky because he was ta'varen. Did he not say in Hunt for the Horn that he always was lucky, but that it was just now becoming even better at times? Seems to me this is just his being ta'varen coming into full blossom. After all, it was also around this time that Rand being ta'varen was made much more evident, so too with Perrin.

 

They all started becoming more and more obviously ta'varen around the same time, after all, so I don't think it has anything to do with either the Horn or the dagger.

 

Until just shortly before the start of the TEOTW, they were not Ta'veren at all, so whatever luck Mat had earlier has nothing to do with him being Ta'veren.

And, as seen so often with Rand, being Ta'veren does not always work in ones favour, like Mats luck does.

[DuDZiK]

Until just shortly before the start of the TEOTW, they were not Ta'veren at all, so whatever luck Mat had earlier has nothing to do with him being Ta'veren.

And, as seen so often with Rand, being Ta'veren does not always work in ones favour, like Mats luck does.

 

ah, but it doesn't always work in his favor does it? He stumbles into battles and situations that could not be said to be 'in his favour' or what he wants without meaning to.

 

Luck isn't always a good thing; it's neither good nor bad, it just is.

[BrainFireBob]

Um, its not only contestable, its dead wrong.  He was shouting "Carai an Caldazar" before he ever picked up the dagger.  Read TEoTW ch 18.  That is before they enter Shadar Logoth.

 

In this instance, RAW, you are the one who is dead wrong. I said memories, not "speaking." His first Old Blood memory came from his Healing- commanding the Heart Guard.

 

Further, I'm just going to address the rest of your post with the fact that we're given what the dagger does- it infects people with Shadar Logoth evil. That does not luck create. Luck in fact is no part of that- so it strikes me as serious handwaiving to say the dagger gave Mat luck. What the dagger added to Mat was removed by the Healing. The luck is still there.

[trakand_01]

I was thinking about Mat's life, events that have overtaken him, and I wondered, perhaps other things that we dont necessarily consider lucky are actually other ways that his luck has manifested itself.

 

Consider this (and feel free to rip it apart)

Mat took the dagger and was almost completely consumed by it. Fortunately he was not alone and Rand got him to the White Tower.

 

Mat went to Rhuidean and was hung from a tree. Fortunately he was not alone and Rand resucsitated him.

 

Mat was killed by Rahvin (along with Aviendha) but fortunately Rand balefired the forsaken and thus undid the death.

 

Mat was almost killed by Darkhounds ripping through his door, but fortunately Rand balefired them just in time.

 

Anyone see a theme...? I appreciate that Rand and Mat are both ta'veren and that due to their friendship and their status' in Randland it stands to reason that Rand will be there from time to time when bad things happen, but Rand has saved Mat's life more than once, twice or even three times.

 

Similarly if Rand hadnt gone to Rhuidean, Mat would never have gone, which means he would never have gotten his foxhead, which is quite useful to him.

 

any other thoughts?

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

In this instance, RAW, you are the one who is dead wrong. I said memories, not "speaking." His first Old Blood memory came from his Healing- commanding the Heart Guard.

 

And of course, speaking has nothing to do with memory ... especially since the words came directly from the battle you're referencing.

 

Come on ...  ::)

 

Further, I'm just going to address the rest of your post with the fact that we're given what the dagger does- it infects people with Shadar Logoth evil.

 

Yes, we know that holding it will infect you.  Where does it say that is the ONE AND ONLY thing it does?

 

Mat is the only one with long-term exposure, but without the soul of Mordeth.  It infected Mat too, but he was Healed and didn't die, so we get to see the other long term side effects.  Cool, huh?

 

That does not luck create.

 

LOL ... you don't know WHAT it does, or can possibly do.  As I pointed out, Mat is a unique case.

 

What the dagger added to Mat was removed by the Healing.

 

Nope ... or at least, you have nothing resembling evidence to that effect.  The only thing that Healing did was sever the active link between them, and remove the taint that was killing him.  If it fixed everything the dagger did, it would have fixed the holes in his memory.

 

The Aes Sedai called it "Healing", but clearly it was not the uniform Healing weave that was the only thing Aes Sedai knew about at the time.  What Siuan and the others did was sever the active link, and remove the Shadar Logoth taint that was killing him.

 

Now ... since you've moved completely away from defending your theory to attacking mine, let me ask you (in some cases re-ask) some questions about your theory.

 

How, exactly, did Ba'alzamon get the ability to "add luck"?  Thats no more described as being in his repertoire than it is explicitly described as being a property of the dagger.

 

What, exactly, did Ba'alzamon hope to gain by making Mat "super-lucky", assuming he even could?

 

Why, exactly, hasn't Ba'alzamon called in Mat's spiritual tab, assuming Mat made a deal with him (which we didn't see, and Mat doesn't remember, and hasn't shown up in any POV's, good or evil, despite supposedly having happened in Book One).

 

You can start there, I'll add others as they come to me.

 

Or maybe I won't.  This is obviously futile.

[cloglord]

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It is also possible the dagger alone then is responsible, by slowly erasing Mat's character and memories down to his "base"- which is where his luck apparently comes from, or possibly where the Pattern's design for him is expressed (oh, something along the lines that his ta'veren luck is expressed more easily through him, because there's less him there.) That explanation also covers where his memories would have originated from- they're there in back, buried in who he is.

 

Mat started spouting the Old Tongue before he ever picked up the dagger ... much less lost his memories ... so either something else starting "erasing Mat's character and memories down to his 'base'" before he ever got the dagger, or the manifestation isn't the result of erasing anything ...

Personally, I like the idea of the dagger erasing Mat's memory back to its base, and would have been the one I presented, had BFB not gotten to it first.

 

Taking the perfectly reasonable example of the Snakepeople calling Mat, "Gambler" with a capital "G."  Gives us the baseline.  It is certainly an aspect to Mat's soul that is associated with luck and gambling.  While it is not sure that this aspect to Mat's soul is unique to his soul, it evidenced by the comments of the Snake people, and by Mat's self-assertion of his luck are proof enough for me.  Certainly many people are lucky, Verin's father springs to mind, yet the intensity of Mat's luck seems supernatural.

 

For evidence of that I would use the before argued points about Mat spounting the OT.  Prior to the dagger, Mat was spouting the OT.  Moraine's explaination of this phenomenon still rings the truest to me.  The old blood runs strong in Mat.  If, as we are discussing, Mat has some inherent luck attached to his soul.  THen it stand to reason that this indication that the oldblood runs strong, is also an indication that Mat's soul is in some fashion "stronger" or more potent, in all aspects.  In other words he has a exceptionally "strong" soul that has a strong luck aspect.  While this is not certainly the case, it does not signifiganlty bend the paradigm that RJ has set up, in fact, I think it fits within it quite nicely.

 

Now, expounding on BrainFire's idea, of erasing Mat's memories, exposing more of the core, this could certainly account for the mechanism in which the dagger strengthened Mat's luck.  By erasing the Mat mask, it exposed more of his strongly lucky soul, and led to this new and stronger expression of Mat's luck.  This explains how exposure to SL taint made Mat luckier, and also helps to explain the apprent inconsistencies of when his luck first appears, and the first appearance of past-life memories/pspeech.

 

Now, it has been advanced that twe do not know if exposure to objects from SL do more than taint the exposed.  While it certainly could be the case, without need to resort to handwaving, that SL taint makes people luckier as a side effect, we don't have great examples that would indicate that there are other side effects.  Fain, is unsuitable as an example, as he is not simply tained, but seems to be possessed by the origination of the taint itself, further, he has been personally touched by the DO in a way, that disqualifies him as an example.  The only other example that we have, is Liah.  Granted, we do not know much at all about the effects that the taint had on her, but there are a few circumstantial things to consider.  First, we can witness the fact that Liah, seems to have forgotten, at least temporarily, who Rand was, when she reapeared to him at SL.  This might be an indicator that taint = forgetfulness.  The other indicator I took from Liah, is that considering her fate, the taint did not make her exceptionally lucky.  Admittedly, this example is not the best, but it is the best comparison we can make, I believe.

 

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What the dagger added to Mat was removed by the Healing.

 

Nope ... or at least, you have nothing resembling evidence to that effect.  The only thing that Healing did was sever the active link between them, and remove the taint that was killing him.  If it fixed everything the dagger did, it would have fixed the holes in his memory.

 

I think what the point was was that whatever the dagger imparted to Mat, was removed, not that the effects were negated or healed.  The taint that was imparted to Mat, was successfully removed from him by the Aes Sedai, to the best of their knowledge, and in this case seems to be nearly certain, as Mat has not yet suffered a relapse.

 

Now ... since you've moved completely away from defending your theory to attacking mine, let me ask you (in some cases re-ask) some questions about your theory.

 

How, exactly, did Ba'alzamon get the ability to "add luck"?...What, exactly, did Ba'alzamon hope to gain by making Mat "super-lucky", assuming he even could?...Why, exactly, hasn't Ba'alzamon called in Mat's spiritual tab,...

You can start there, I'll add others as they come to me.

 

RAW, I believe your response here to be disingenuous.  It seems clear to me that you aren't interested in hearing responses to your questions, but are rather trying to turn the debate back onto ground where you feel more comfortable.  BFB has not mentioned anything at all about Balazamon in several posts, and is not really an aspect to his theory that has been emphasized in the most recent posts.  It is not an essential part of what he has been arguing here. 

 

This seems to me like an attempt to attack a weak and irrelevant part of a long dropped part of the conversation, in order to get yourself off of the defensive and back to being on the offensive as to typically are.

[BrainFireBob]

In this instance, RAW, you are the one who is dead wrong. I said memories, not "speaking." His first Old Blood memory came from his Healing- commanding the Heart Guard.

 

And of course, speaking has nothing to do with memory ... especially since the words came directly from the battle you're referencing.

 

Except we don't know that. We know how shouted the battle cry, and did not understand it or where it came from, early on.

 

After this memory, he understood the scene fully and completely. The first was instinctive behavior, the second is now conscious. That's a huge difference.

[DuDZiK]

Personally, I like the idea of the dagger erasing Mat's memory back to its base, and would have been the one I presented, had BFB not gotten to it first.

 

Taking the perfectly reasonable example of the Snakepeople calling Mat, "Gambler" with a capital "G."  Gives us the baseline.  It is certainly an aspect to Mat's soul that is associated with luck and gambling.  While it is not sure that this aspect to Mat's soul is unique to his soul, it evidenced by the comments of the Snake people, and by Mat's self-assertion of his luck are proof enough for me.  Certainly many people are lucky, Verin's father springs to mind, yet the intensity of Mat's luck seems supernatural.

 

For evidence of that I would use the before argued points about Mat spounting the OT.  Prior to the dagger, Mat was spouting the OT.  Moraine's explaination of this phenomenon still rings the truest to me.  The old blood runs strong in Mat.  If, as we are discussing, Mat has some inherent luck attached to his soul.  THen it stand to reason that this indication that the oldblood runs strong, is also an indication that Mat's soul is in some fashion "stronger" or more potent, in all aspects.  In other words he has a exceptionally "strong" soul that has a strong luck aspect.  While this is not certainly the case, it does not signifiganlty bend the paradigm that RJ has set up, in fact, I think it fits within it quite nicely.

 

Now, expounding on BrainFire's idea, of erasing Mat's memories, exposing more of the core, this could certainly account for the mechanism in which the dagger strengthened Mat's luck.  By erasing the Mat mask, it exposed more of his strongly lucky soul, and led to this new and stronger expression of Mat's luck.  This explains how exposure to SL taint made Mat luckier, and also helps to explain the apprent inconsistencies of when his luck first appears, and the first appearance of past-life memories/pspeech.

 

Now, it has been advanced that twe do not know if exposure to objects from SL do more than taint the exposed.  While it certainly could be the case, without need to resort to handwaving, that SL taint makes people luckier as a side effect, we don't have great examples that would indicate that there are other side effects.  Fain, is unsuitable as an example, as he is not simply tained, but seems to be possessed by the origination of the taint itself, further, he has been personally touched by the DO in a way, that disqualifies him as an example.  The only other example that we have, is Liah.  Granted, we do not know much at all about the effects that the taint had on her, but there are a few circumstantial things to consider.  First, we can witness the fact that Liah, seems to have forgotten, at least temporarily, who Rand was, when she reapeared to him at SL.  This might be an indicator that taint = forgetfulness.  The other indicator I took from Liah, is that considering her fate, the taint did not make her exceptionally lucky.  Admittedly, this example is not the best, but it is the best comparison we can make, I believe.

 

I wonder... I recall Isam/Luke saying that Fain had 'the Dark Ones own luck' - an expression that is often applied to Mat.

 

Anyways, your idea that the dagger tore away Mat's 'regular' soul and exposed his more powerful Old Blood 'soul' rings true to me. As you say, luck and gambling have always been a part of who Mat is, and as I recall Mat says in The Dragon Reborn when his luck becomes what you termed as 'supernatural' that he always had more luck than most people, but not nearly as much as he came to have. That certainly seems to fit in with your idea that the dagger and subsequent healing stripped the 'mask' and exposed his uniqueness with much more strength.

 

Might I ask you if you think that his being ta'varen has anything to do with this as well? If not his being lucky in gambling and battle, I couldn't say what it is his being ta'varen does.

[BrainFireBob]

I always thought Mat's periods of "superluck" were caused when his ta'veren luck and "his" luck were both working in his favor.

[hurryupnwait]

Going back to the earlier touched on points of whether or not Mat and Perrin are special.  I submit that they are while it was earlier argued that many people are mentioned in prophecy and foretelling (Elayne, Aviendha, Min, Luc, Asmodean, etc.)  and not necessarily special i.e. bound to the Horn/Wheel.  I think that Mat (the Gambler, Trickster, and Son of Battles), and Perrin (the hammer carrying Wolf King) are a art of that special group.  They are taveren and their lives, and success are tied to those of the Dragon.  This of course means that they are tied to the success of everyone, and everything!

 

I again state what I believe the pattern would not entrust such a task to unproven individuals.  As far as the argument that Mat's aforementioned titles from the snake people come from this particular incarnation, I would ask this: what battles at that point had Mat participated in other than maybe the fall of the Stone?

 

This might be a redundant restatement, but if the Dragon is bound to the Wheel, why not his two essential companions?  The only name of another Taveren that RJ has stated that I can remember is Artur Hawkwing we know he is bound to the horn therefore why not Mat/Perrin.

 

Also just to clear up something I am not saying all the bound heroes are taveren, just that I think all taveren are bound to the horn.  It is similiar to saying all hammers are tools, but not all tools are hammers. (deep I know!  ;D )

 

Anyway that is my theory

[BrainFireBob]

Personally, I always wondered if Mat was based on Maverick . . .

[Majsju]

Taking the perfectly reasonable example of the Snakepeople calling Mat, "Gambler" with a capital "G." 

 

Hmmm, do we have different copies then? My copy does not have gambler with capital G.

 

As far as the argument that Mat's aforementioned titles from the snake people come from this particular incarnation, I would ask this: what battles at that point had Mat participated in other than maybe the fall of the Stone?

 

You do know that they can see into the future, right?

 

Also just to clear up something I am not saying all the bound heroes are taveren, just that I think all taveren are bound to the horn.  It is similiar to saying all hammers are tools, but not all tools are hammers. (deep I know!

 

That does not fit with RJs description of ta'veren.

 

You become ta'veren according to the needs of The Wheel. Like the heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or woman becomes ta'veren because the Wheel has "decided" to use them as an influence on the Pattern. And, no, the Wheel isn't sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way.

 

Since there are  only roughly 100 heroes available, and not all at the same time, putting a restriction on the ability to influence the Pattern by only having heroes able to become ta'veren is certainly not striving for the most efficient way.

[BrainFireBob]

True, but there is still a question available around the idea of "major" or "longterm" ta'veren vs. momentary ones.

[Majsju]

True, but there is still a question available around the idea of "major" or "longterm" ta'veren vs. momentary ones.

 

Again, not very efficient to place such a restriction.

To me, ta'veren seems to be a complement to the heroes, as well as a tool available for them to complete the tasks they have been spun out for.

 

Granted, it does make sense to have the major ta'veren being heroes, because they tend to be stuck in the middle of crucial events, like Hawkwing and Rand. But I think that only goes when there is a hero available to make ta'veren, a hero spun out for a task that will place him or her where they are needed.

 

But then, what makes a major ta'veren, as contrary to a momentary?

An idea I've toyed with for a long time is that Laman, or someone around him was ta'veren when he decided to chop down the tree. If so, the person made ta'veren would have to be it less than an hour. Momentary. But looking at the consequences of that one action, you might very well call it a major.

[BrainFireBob]

I've often wondered about Tigraine or Rand's father- both of whom could have potentially snared Laman in their web.

 

Janduin via the merchants he met with, Tigraine- well, we all know.

 

Janduin in particular stands out to me because of the "he had a way with him, a power"- the fact he mended that blood feud as he did.

 

Of course, you can go extreme about little fetus Rand, I suppose

[hurryupnwait]

The wheel only uses what is available to it.  That would make sense, however, are you reading different copies than I am?  Have I missed the chapters containing the heroes bound running around righting the worlds wrongs?  As far as I know other than The Dragon, Birgitte(who was ripped out early), and her honey Gaidal (who just barely was spun out) there were plenty of other heroes available to spin out to help the Dragon.  Why then with all those heroes available did the pattern spin out Mat and Perrin?  I'm telling you those two are more special than given credit.  Besides Mat and Perrin fit the description of those bound to the Wheel:

 

"spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or woman becomes ta'veren because the Wheel has "decided" to use them as an influence on the Pattern."

 

Who think that does not fit the purpose Mat and Perrin were spun out for?  If so do we really think the pattern would risk using two unprovens in such a critical role?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Except we don't know that. We know how shouted the battle cry, and did not understand it or where it came from, early on.

 

After this memory, he understood the scene fully and completely. The first was instinctive behavior, the second is now conscious. That's a huge difference.

 

There is indeed a difference, and its the one you pointed out.  One is a subconscious memory, the other, a conscious memory.  But speaking a phrase from subconscious memory out loud is indicative that whatever process was bringing that memory out, had already begun.  And it began before he picked up the dagger.

 

Could the holes in his memory made by the dagger have made it easier for the subconscious memories which were, apparently, already there to move into his conscious mind?  Sure.  How that is evidence for the source of his luck being something other than the dagger is beyond me though.

 

RAW, I believe your response here to be disingenuous.  It seems clear to me that you aren't interested in hearing responses to your questions, but are rather trying to turn the debate back onto ground where you feel more comfortable.

 

Well, cloglord, you would be dead wrong.  I asked similar questions earlier in the thread, if you recall (or read), and they weren't answered then.  You're accusing me of trying to move away from the subject at hand, because  for some mysterious reason I am "more comfortable" with it there?  LOL ... I'm moving the topic BACK to where it was before; BFB's theory that Mat got his luck from a deal with Ba'alzamon.

 

If BFB has an answer to those questions, I really want to hear it.  But I do not believe that he does.

 

Would it be disingenuous to point out that you have again tried to remove the discussion from the topic at hand to your personal, multi-thread forum on my discussion methods?  ;D

[Tyrell]

On the subject of Heroes I'd love to see Asmo show up at TG as a somewhat reluctant Hero. Totally madcap of course. But he could tell us who killed him and it'd explain why he'd gone beyond the DO's ability to resurrect him, even he He wanted to.

 

*Equipts fire-proof shields*

[cloglord]

Could the holes in his memory made by the dagger have made it easier for the subconscious memories which were, apparently, already there to move into his conscious mind?  Sure.  How that is evidence for the source of his luck being something other than the dagger is beyond me though.

 

Its simple, if Mat's luck and his subconscious "old Blood" memories are tied to his soul, and the dagger had the effect of exposing his "core soul." then exposure to the dagger is the intrument of his luck's appearance, but not the cause.  A cardiac surgeon uses intruments to expose the heart, but the scalpel does not cause the heart, it cuts away the layers to reveal it.

 

Well, cloglord, you would be dead wrong.  I asked similar questions earlier in the thread, if you recall (or read), and they weren't answered then.  You're accusing me of trying to move away from the subject at hand, because  for some mysterious reason I am "more comfortable" with it there?  LOL ... I'm moving the topic BACK to where it was before; BFB's theory that Mat got his luck from a deal with Ba'alzamon.

 

If BFB has an answer to those questions, I really want to hear it.  But I do not believe that he does.

 

Would it be disingenuous to point out that you have again tried to remove the discussion from the topic at hand to your personal, multi-thread forum on my discussion methods?  Grin

 

I did read, and I do recall, you asked those questions, and BFB did not answer them.  I assumed, (and believe you did as well,)that the reason that he did not answer them,is because he did not have a good answer.  Maybe it was a poor assumption, but I took it to mean that he had conceeded the indefensibility of those ideas, and had moved on to a much stronger and more defensible position.  If that is the case, then your attempt to return to were BFB was weakest, and to my mind, had already conceded, was exactly what I labeled it.  If I am wrong in those assumptions, then I am sorry, but I don't believe I am. 

 

As for your question, it would be disingenuous, to point that out. The points I raised about your discussion methods were in reference to your tendency, IMO, to state your opinions as fact, and have nothing to do with my observations about your tendancy to prefer to be on the offensive as opposed to the defensive.  It would also be disingenuous, because as you well know, I moved those discussion to PM's so as not to raise my personal issues in this public forum.

 

 

[Majsju]

Who think that does not fit the purpose Mat and Perrin were spun out for?  If so do we really think the pattern would risk using two unprovens in such a critical role?

 

With the possibility to make just about anyone ta'veren at need, "unproven" is really not such a big deal. Especially not with the Dragon Reborn growing up in the Two Rivers, where the old blood is still going strong.

 

Look at it this way, Rand is the single most important person since LTT, yes? His two compadres plays a crucial part in Rands eventual success, yes?

Well, here's the thing. Heroes are not invincible. What if Mat had fallen down a tree when he was ten, and broken his neck? What if Perrin had been severly injured during his apprentice as a blacksmith?

Much safer and more efficient to use those closest to Rand when the ta'veren factor kicks in, ie just a short time before Moiraine came to Emonds Field.

 

That is not evidence that Mat and Perrin are not heroes, but if they are, it is for other reasons than helping Rand winning TG. From what we know, Mat seems the more likely culprit, as he will be very involved in solving the whole "Tuons Seanchan in exile in Randland issue".

[professorskar]

Look at it this way, Rand is the single most important person since LTT, yes? His two compadres plays a crucial part in Rands eventual success, yes?

 

Damn Taraboners...

[RobertAlexWillis]

Its simple, if Mat's luck and his subconscious "old Blood" memories are tied to his soul, and the dagger had the effect of exposing his "core soul." then exposure to the dagger is the intrument of his luck's appearance, but not the cause.  A cardiac surgeon uses intruments to expose the heart, but the scalpel does not cause the heart, it cuts away the layers to reveal it.

 

That is possible, in the sense that there is nothing to disprove it in the books, because the mechanics of souls aren't discussed in sufficient detail.  But there is nothing to indicate it, either.

 

There is only one piece of actual evidence to link anything with Mat getting super-lucky, and that is the correlation in timing between picking up the dagger, and getting a huge increase in luck.  It is the only thing that happened in the right time period that happened to him and none of the others.

 

Since there are no counter-indications, I feel comfortable saying that the causative correlation is, in my opinion  ::) , a fact.

 

I assumed, (and believe you did as well,)that the reason that he did not answer them,is because he did not have a good answer.  Maybe it was a poor assumption, but I took it to mean that he had conceeded the indefensibility of those ideas, and had moved on to a much stronger and more defensible position.  If that is the case, then your attempt to return to were BFB was weakest, and to my mind, had already conceded, was exactly what I labeled it.  If I am wrong in those assumptions, then I am sorry, but I don't believe I am.

 

Well cloglord ... I can only say that while I don't think he has a good answer, I genuinely would like to hear it if he does.  Thats why I asked those questions.  Again.  I don't ask questions that I don't actually want to hear the answer to.

[BrainFireBob]

I didn't answer them because I did not feel the mindset behind asking them was receptive to the answer.

 

What I was attempting to list out in my initial post were other irregularities that occured near the time of the Shadar Logoth incident- namely, the dreams (especially where Mat was identified). Jordan kept Mat's responses in the dreams under his hat.

 

There's also the "erasing" effect of the dagger, by eliminating Mat's memories, as well as his assertion of always having been lucky.

 

We are presented with an explanation of the dagger and what it does. No part of the Shadar Logoth "evil" in any other respect indicates the bestowal of luck. This makes any assertion that the dagger "added" Mat's luck weak, especially in consideration of the fact the Aes Sedai removed what the dagger did do to him, leaving the gaping memory holes, but there you go.

 

Since we are aware that Talents crop up, Mat may- like Rand or Perrin- have a special ability that is fairly unique: an ability to sense chance or manipulate it.

 

These are all irregularities that need to be weighed in consideration of the event.

 

The existence of the Dark One's luck as a concept intrigues me- Jordan pushed it often enough to make one wonder if it was a real item, and if so, how would it function. While it is indeed a stretch to assume Ba'alzamon could make the alteration- even in a dream- given that it *can* be done, was there a window where it could occur? Yes, as it happens.

 

These are all things I just toss out. The dagger stands out in Mat's mind, so he dates his super-luck to that; but his memory of events surrounding is fuzzy, and that was a fairly momentous event in his life, and also the beginning of when he began doing things were luck would be involved (his and Rand's journey)- meaning if it was pre-existing, he quite probably would not have noticed. Perhaps he attributed some of Rand's ta'veren-ness, such as the death of the "hound" by lightning, to his own luck, and it indeed began as he was "erased." But that's why I mistrust Mat's labelling of the start- we are told his memory isn't reliable, the only firm start we know of as readers is the night in Tar Valon, with a potential episode while gambling in Shienar.

 

EDIT: Having read this, I didn't articulate the core.

 

I'm a physicist, and recognize Jordan structured his series in a heavily causal manner. Mat's luck is different- there are fans who contest it's merely ta'veren luck, but that's inane considering its predictive properties.

 

Mat's luck needs explanation. Mat's casual explanation simply pins down the timing he recalls, without necessitating a causal link. So we are left with investigating possibilities. So I went into the ones I see and the reasoning behind them, briefly. There may be more, and they're not all equally strong, but it's a process of elimination.