2 mind blowing thoughts

[BrainFireBob]

Couple of pages and no-one else has mentioned it, so I will.

 

The problem's making the armor.

 

Cuendillar is absolutely inflexible, so you can't assemble the armor or joints later- no give or spring.

 

If you made the armor first and turned it into Cuendillar, it'd form a solid, inflexible piece wherever two pieces touched- this is what Egwene did to the harbor chains.

 

If you managed to keep the pieces separate, you're wearing a heavy, inflexible armor with huge gaping vulnerabilities in its protection.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well ... that makes it more complicated, but certainly not impossible.  You'd have to make it as a set of overlapping plates, each turned into cuendillar separately, something like scale mail, with the plates attached internally to one another with non-cuendillar materials.  All non-cuendillar parts would not be exposed, so the protection would still be there.  It's not foolproof, of course, but it would be an improvement over regular iron or steel.  Even the best full plate still had a good bit of leather holding it together, and plenty of holes or joints to stick a blade into.

 

Also, the weight wouldn't really be an issue, since the plates to be made into cuendillar could be made paper thin.  It would actually end up lighter than steel plate.

[BrainFireBob]

Point on the plate.

 

The problem with that kind of lamellar armor is that the ability of the wearer to move, in history, was assisted and allowed by the ability of the steel sheets to "flex."

 

There's also the question of force-absorption from blows, which is one of the other things steel gives you. Cuendillar absorbs force, yes- but is the shock of holding the cuendillar so it can absorb the force passed along to the body behind?

 

I mean, if you hold a cuendillar object in front of you, you can still be shoved backward- and if you arrange the layers so that's not an issue, there will still be weak points "on top" and the ability to over-stress the bonding agent, still coupled with the highly impaired mobility.

 

There's also the construction of jointed pieces, which considering iron-working, I really don't see how you could create without flexible pieces at a minimum.

[RobertAlexWillis]

There would be problems, certainly.  Cuendillar armor would not provide much protection against bludgeoning weapons, unless it was so stiff that the wearer could not move.  But the protection against bladed weapons would be superior.

 

It could not be designed as full plate.  Moving at all in plate requires the flex in steel, as you point out.  Even getting into the armor to start with requires it.

 

The design I have in mind, which I think would work with (and only with) cuendillar is a little complex ... and I can't really describe it.  It involves a combination of styles, and only part of it is cuendillar ...

 

There are also some ways that cuendillar chain could be made ... we know that cuendillar can be in contact with other substances when it is being changed without changing those substances (for example, a piece of iron can be changed into cuendillar while sitting on a wooden table without changing the entire table into cuendillar) so, if the chain were assembled before being converted into cuendillar, and then the links were insulated from one another with thin strips of wood (or perhaps some other sort of wadding would work) and then the links were changed one at a time, they would not bond with each other, but still remain interlocked when the insulating material was removed, giving both flexibility and an unbreakable layer of protection.

 

The point is, there are ways to do it, even though they are painstaking and time consuming ... and the armor would not make you instantly invincible ... but there are definitely benefits to be had.  That kind of chain (and again, the links could be very light) could be worn over padded leather ... that would be very good protection.

[BrainFireBob]

Problem there is that traditional chain design and assembly wouldn't work. No riveting of links, making it a mind-blowingly time-intensive process for an Aes Sedai that could be better invested elsewhere.

 

I agree with you on the bladed weapon protection- I've spent a fair amount of thought on this myself, during my teen years.

 

The main advantage of cuendillar, vs. just a very, very good steel (which could easily be made with the Power and was), is that it protects against the Power and/or energy weapons, such as shocklances. The only forms of armor I can think of that would be creatable would be very-labor intensive yet not provide those benefits, being vulnerable to fine flows of the Power and/or energy discharge weapons, dependent on type.

 

EDIT: Had a thought push forward about the coefficient of static friction of cuendillar on cuendillar- it's either infinite or non-existent.

 

Thinking about it, unless those pieces of cuendillar were perfect down to the atomic level, the friction would probably be infinite. So there's random immobility to worry about as well. Be fun to try, though.

[RobertAlexWillis]

  Quote

No riveting of links, making it a mind-blowingly time-intensive process for an Aes Sedai that could be better invested elsewhere.

 

Yup.  I believe my words were "painstaking and time consuming".

 

To be at all practical, full suits of cuendillar armor are probably off the table.  Something like a cuendillar shield or buckler, however ... and partial cuendillar armor, would be much more doable ... and still very useful.  Just cuendillar bracers could be very useful ... you could literally block balefire with your arm.

 

 

[BrainFireBob]

Everybody was kung-fu fighting/Those cats moved fast as lightning/It was a little bit frightening . . .

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yeah, well ... lol ... if Rand can do it with Callandor ... -shrug-

[BrainFireBob]

Yes, but Callandor's a katana, and they can cut through everything, obviously. More, it's a magic katana that runs on the souls of dead children, see . . .

 

You're talking about bracers that make the wearer into a ninja. Ninjas, RAW, [big]NINJAS![/big]

[RobertAlexWillis]

Of course ... my cuendillar-based technology is the source of all ninjas!

 

Seriously though ... cuendillar bracers .... and a fancloth outfit ... with Power-wrought shuriken!  Who could ask for anything more!  Somebody quick, send a Memo for Moridin!!!!  ::)

[aevogt]

  Quote

Well ...   It's not foolproof, of course, but it would be an improvement over regular iron or steel.  Even the best full plate still had a good bit of leather holding it together, and plenty of holes or joints to stick a blade into.

 

 

 

And RJ knew this.  In one of his battle descriptions, one of the Seanchan blood is described as yanking his sword out from under his opponents arm, The armpit exactly where you'd want to put it (the sharp end in any case) if you were facing an opponent wearing any kind of mail. 

[irondan]

As I said cuendillar armor would not be invincible, but certainly nearly invulnerable. I do like the chain armor that was mentioned.

 

As for the difficulty of making cuendillar armor; yes it would be more difficult, but not much more than it would be to make a typical suit of armor. An Aes Sedai skilled in earth could likely work out the kinks and make a suit of armor ready to be transformed into  cuendillar with less difficulty and time than a blacksmith would have making a normal suit of armor. With Egwene's speedy ability of transforming cuendillar she could transform 4 suits in a free day (busy as she is).

 

Even so, cuendillar armor might be too complicated to produce in mass (though I am of the opinion that it would be possible). If not in mass, than it should at least be produced for important or threatened figures, such as Rand, Mat or Perrin.

 

The 3 oaths might make it more difficult to produce armor, I’m not sure, but all in all if I were in the world of the Wheel of Time I know I would exploit the possibilities of making incredibly thin and indestructible metal.

 

I am still of the opinion that if Rand had Mat’s medallion, cuendillar armor, and a massive sa’angreal then he would be unstoppable by any man. The DO could probably still trash him, and I’m not sure that Mat’s medallion has been tested against the True Power (is that the name of the power from the DO?). Ultimately, the biggest danger to a fully equipped Rand would be himself and fatigue.

 

[Majsju]

Regarding the possibility of cuendillar armour, one quite important thing we do not know is how the weight of it is, related to ordinary steel. What good would an unpiercable armour do you if you could only move at a speed that made an ordinary turtle look like a sheeta?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, unless it is much, MUCH heavier, then that isn't a problem, because you can make it much, MUCH thinner.

[Majsju]

How much thinner you can make it depends of course on how thin you can make the original armour, and I sort of doubt there are a bunch of blacksmiths around who can make breastplates a millimeter or less thick.

[RobertAlexWillis]

  Quote

How much thinner you can make it depends of course on how thin you can make the original armour, and I sort of doubt there are a bunch of blacksmiths around who can make breastplates a millimeter or less thick.

 

I think you'd be surprised.  Hammering metal as thin as possible is not terribly difficult ... its just limited in its usefulness, especially with real armor.  And yes, there might have to be some redesigning (as mentioned above) ... a standard breastplate design probably wouldn't work terribly well. 

 

But it probably could be done, especially given the decorative items (bowls, cups, etc) that seem to be made of cuendillar.  There is no mention of a specifically great weight associated with them ...

 

But, obviously, we don't have any samples to weigh, so ... -shrug-

[Majsju]

Keep in mind that there is not exactly a long time to figure all these little quirks out before TG starts. Not to mention start mass production. Trial & Error takes time. And I doubt any Aes Sedai would be very interested to help out after TG.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Agreed, I don't think we won't ever actually see this.  I'm just saying its technically possible.

[cloglord]

Not to mention the fact that such armor would have to be plate armor that is transformed bit by bit.  a iron chainmail shirt would become rigid once turned as the links would fuse together.  Anthing that is assempbled from plates of Cuendillar that would allow enough freedom of movement would also be subgected to the same weak points as a regular suit of armor, making a suit of cuendillar armor as slighty better than a normal steel one, but not appreciably so.

[aevogt]

I'm probably hijacking a little bit here but do we have any evidence that Cuendillar is impervious to the effects of the True Power.

 

Tam's Sword (thought not cuendillar, was power wrought) was supposed to be unbreakable, yet was broken and melted by Ishy, a notorious user of the TP.

 

Also, the Seals.  It seems that when one is found, after it's been anywhere near Ishy, it is no longer Cuendillar but something more ordinary, that can be broken.

 

I haven't any real evidence for any of this, just thinking out loud.

[RobertAlexWillis]

  Quote

a iron chainmail shirt would become rigid once turned as the links would fuse together

 

-sigh- ... no it wouldn't.

 

But, just so that you know that I'm not taking this position just to oppose you, cloglord, I'll simply quote what I already wrote, earlier in this thread, thereby establishing that I was already of this opinion, before you addressed an idea already discussed in this thread.

 

  Quote

There are also some ways that cuendillar chain could be made ... we know that cuendillar can be in contact with other substances when it is being changed without changing those substances (for example, a piece of iron can be changed into cuendillar while sitting on a wooden table without changing the entire table into cuendillar) so, if the chain were assembled before being converted into cuendillar, and then the links were insulated from one another with thin strips of wood (or perhaps some other sort of wadding would work) and then the links were changed one at a time, they would not bond with each other, but still remain interlocked when the insulating material was removed, giving both flexibility and an unbreakable layer of protection.

 

The point is, there are ways to do it, even though they are painstaking and time consuming ... and the armor would not make you instantly invincible ... but there are definitely benefits to be had.  That kind of chain (and again, the links could be very light) could be worn over padded leather ... that would be very good protection.

 

Painstaking?  Yes.  Time consuming?  Yes.  Impossible?  No.

[flippinaces]

  Quote

Please read...

 

Cuendillar is also called Heartstone. Which, logically, must mean it is stone. Especially when it crumbles away (the seals). It isn't metal, it isn't iron. It's stone.

I'm certain it's been described as stone in the books anyway.

 

 

peanutbutter isn't actually butter

[cloglord]

  Quote

-sigh- ... no it wouldn't.

 

But, just so that you know that I'm not taking this position just to oppose you, cloglord, I'll simply quote what I already wrote, earlier in this thread, thereby establishing that I was already of this opinion, before you addressed an idea already discussed in this thread.

 

I'm sorry, I thought that I had read through it, and must have missed the page where you wrote this.  I agree. You are also quite correct in that it would be ridiculously painstaking, not only in the insulation but in the construction of iron rings.  As a person who has made chainmail and as an amateur blacksmith, I can say with a high degree of certainty that it would take years and years to contruct even one such suit of chain mail cuendillar.  Iron not being the most forgiving of metals when it comes to heating and bending on such a small scale.

[Baldar]

The easiest way would be for the person making the iron links (or scales) to attach a link and then turn it to cuendillar, piece by piece, until the armor is finished. So, you'd need a blacksmith who can make cuendillar, or a channeler willing to learn blacksmithing.

 

A suit of it would definitely be worth a kingdom's riches. Not to mention visually stunning.

[Darth_Andrea]

  Quote

The easiest way would be for the person making the iron links (or scales) to attach a link and then turn it to cuendillar, piece by piece, until the armor is finished. So, you'd need a blacksmith who can make cuendillar, or a channeler willing to learn blacksmithing.

 

A suit of it would definitely be worth a kingdom's riches. Not to mention visually stunning.

 

Actually wouldn't it just be better to transmute it after its made. It might be a little more work but can you imagine how time consuming it would be to make it link by link in chain or scale mail. Steel Armor would be easier to transmute I would think as for the most part it's a solid peice at least for the majority of it.

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]