Is Ishmael the Light's greatest asset?

[son omerc]

Face it, LTT was completely off his rocker at the end of the AOL. If Ishy hadn't healed his mind in the prolouge to TEoTW, then let LTT rush off and wipe himself out before the taint took his mind again, the game was up. Even if he had been reborn it would have been as a madman unconcious of his surroundings. I know Rand claims he has a madman in his head, but most of what we get to see of LTT he seems mostly sane if slightly unbalanced. Trust me, self interest is not high on a true madman's list of important things to get done. LTT has saved Rand countless times by showing him the necesary weave to keep him alive, and he listened to reason in KoD when he could have ended it all.

 

Ishy is the one Forsaken who has continually kept the other FS off Rand's back, either as Ishy or Moridin, and has only really tried to kill Rand a couple of times. Everyone has a temper and has let it get away from himself a few times, Ishy isn't any different. Really, if it wasn't for Ishy the DO would have already won and remade the Wheel in his own image. So if the Light wins won't we owe a huge debt to Ishy? Maybe build him a few statues or name some of Rand's new schools in his honor? Ishmael Jr High School. Has a nice ring to it doesn't it?

[Sato]

Here is a mind boggling question for you, LTT used Balefire to kill himself yes? Well, if Balefire erases your thread in relation to the power used and undoes what you did and LTT used enough power to create Dragonmount, then how far back did it erase his thread? What was undone?

[rd2000]

From the description used at the beginning, I would say that he did not use balefire to kill himself. Rand and LTT are pretty much even in power. The size of the shaft of liquid fire that LTT used to kill himself was much bigger than the beam of balefire that Rand used on Rahvin.

[Angel of Death]

I saw it as LTT knowingly drew way too much of the power and killed himself - i think DM was just a secondary thing - he had to do something with all that power.

[Inara]

yea, that is what i though too

he draws all this power into himself and just before it burns him out he turns this huge column of air into fire...causes a volcano and gets incinerated.

no balefire involved IMO

[Mad Season]

If he had balefired himself DM wouldn't exist. Since he made that as he died, balefire would have erased that at least.

[fader6818]

I don't think it's possible to balefire one's self. We can get into the paradoxes of that, but I htink it has a bit simpler reason.

 

RJ puts balances on things. Rather than allow the world ot shift into chaos by balefiring oneself (it touches your hand when you channel it, if the FoH description is always the way BF is used...), RJ just doesn't allow it to happen.

 

Like the Trollocs and gateway thing. It would just be too easy if the DO's minions could push a few hundred fists of Trollocs into one city, and the next, and the next. So he created a mechanism that didn't allow it.

[Luckers]

RJ has said it wasn't balefire.

 

And i must admit, Ishy/Moridin is one of the most interesting character. He is the only one that doesn't fight out of self-interest... He fights because that is his part. I think that he is aware that the wheel will be destroyed absolutely if the Dark One escape, including him and the others, but he does it anyway.

[Wolfsbane]

Well that is why the Forsaken are on the Dark Side, if you will, because they want the wheel to be broken and the DO to remake the world in his image. I believe that the Father of Lies may just be screwing over the Forsaken with that deal because I just can't see the DO letting anything live.

Ishmael knows how many times they've fought, how many times that he has been defeated.. Yet he let's Rand live?

I don't think Ish is good, if that's what anyone thinks, it's more like a duelist waiting for his opponent to pick up his sword. You could end the fight before you opponent has even taken a step towards the blade, but you want a good fight- I will allow Ish/Mor to be viewed as semi-honourable. That I will allow.

That the DO wants Rand, Perrin, & Mat dead.. Then no one, then just P & M.. Leaves me wondering if our favourite little ball of hate and evil can't make up its collective mind.

Ish is the Lord of Chaos, from everything he has done since the Breaking, he has earned the title of Nae'blis. He probably just wants a decent fight, a fight he knows he can win- why wolf-boy and raven-prince have to kick the can- but wants to match Rand's power and overwhelm him.

Yes, he could've snapped Rand's back like a chicken bone in the first book like he did to the rats in Baerlon- but he didn't.

Of all of the Forsaken, Ish-Mor is the most distant from feelings or emotions, wants or needs, and he understands how the Wheel and Pattern work (refer to bottom for other Forsaken). He has always been destined to be the anti-Dragon, and he wants to fulfill that with slaying Rand on the rocks of Shayol Ghul.

He's just after a good fight, and doesn't want any of his blundering associates or anything else to get in the way of his destiny.

 

(Forsaken- Sammael is driven by the need for power, Lanfear for power [and love?], Semirage for torture, Grendal for pleasure, Asmodean for music [and probably other things], etc... Ish is the only one not trapped by wants, which permits him to create Chaos and destruction with little heed to anything.)

 

Wolfs

[Jedimuppet]

Well that is why the Forsaken are on the Dark Side' date=' if you will, because they [b']want[/b] the wheel to be broken and the DO to remake the world in his image. I believe that the Father of Lies may just be screwing over the Forsaken with that deal because I just can't see the DO letting anything live.

Ishmael knows how many times they've fought, how many times that he has been defeated.. Yet he let's Rand live?

I don't think Ish is good, if that's what anyone thinks, it's more like a duelist waiting for his opponent to pick up his sword. You could end the fight before you opponent has even taken a step towards the blade, but you want a good fight- I will allow Ish/Mor to be viewed as semi-honourable. That I will allow.

That the DO wants Rand, Perrin, & Mat dead.. Then no one, then just P & M.. Leaves me wondering if our favourite little ball of hate and evil can't make up its collective mind.

Ish is the Lord of Chaos, from everything he has done since the Breaking, he has earned the title of Nae'blis. He probably just wants a decent fight, a fight he knows he can win- why wolf-boy and raven-prince have to kick the can- but wants to match Rand's power and overwhelm him.

Yes, he could've snapped Rand's back like a chicken bone in the first book like he did to the rats in Baerlon- but he didn't.

Of all of the Forsaken, Ish-Mor is the most distant from feelings or emotions, wants or needs, and he understands how the Wheel and Pattern work (refer to bottom for other Forsaken). He has always been destined to be the anti-Dragon, and he wants to fulfill that with slaying Rand on the rocks of Shayol Ghul.

He's just after a good fight, and doesn't want any of his blundering associates or anything else to get in the way of his destiny.

 

(Forsaken- Sammael is driven by the need for power, Lanfear for power [and love?], Semirage for torture, Grendal for pleasure, Asmodean for music [and probably other things], etc... Ish is the only one not trapped by wants, which permits him to create Chaos and destruction with little heed to anything.)

 

Wolfs

 

I don't know. I think the DO wants something to rule over when it's all said and done.

J

[Kadere]

I would say that Ishy's want is to see Rand dead, or at least suffer very much.

[Luckers]

I don't think Ishy is good either, the reason he hasn't really pushed the fight is that he takes a more philosophical view of events. If you knew you'd fought this man time and time again, wouldn't it be better to turn him and have the wars ended forever, then kill him an dpotentiall have to do it all over again.

 

Aditionally Wolfsbane, i dont think the Dark One plans to remake anything. He is chaos embodied. I think his only desire is to destroy the wheel completely, and i think Ishy understands that.

[son omerc]

Well let's not say that Ishy is good and fighting secretly on the side of light, but let's not short him his due when it comes to keeping Rand alive. Ishy's actions have been helpful, whether that was his intention or not. I personally think it is a case of evil defeating its own aims. We have the DO and 13 FS, or had if you prefer, and each has their own plan that leads to generally the same place, but how they have individually mapped out their route to this place has probably done as much as the actions of our heroes to further the aims of the Wheel.

 

Now would it be possible that in a couple thousand years that Ishy might end up being one of the heroes of the story, that remains to be seen.

[Leafburner]

I kind of like the idea that Ishamael could be a name associated with something heroic in ages to come. Kind of like how Two Rivers Folk thought Aes Sedai were evil and not to be trusted.

 

Well, maybe trust wasn't a good example.

 

I do not know if it will happen, though. I think Ishamael would rather turn Rand than kill him and that's why he's keeping him alive.

 

Originally, the plan was to kill them all. Then they started screwing up and Foresaken started dying. That's why he put a holt on all direct interaction with Rand. It's no good for the DO if his strongest minions are all destroyed before TG. He can't bring them back if they're balefired. So hé gets them back in line, mind traps a couple of the troublesome ones and tells Moridin to get their heads in the game.

 

Now they've regrouped. Their fingers are spread in so many pies and somebody is going to scream "food fight!" When the Foresaken come out fighting, Moridin doesn't want any of them getting in his way. He is going after Rand alone and possibly even on orders to do so from the DO.

 

Whatever history records about Moridin will be the result of his confrontation with Rand. There are some theories that Rand may switch bodies with Moridin. Then who would people worship as their Dragon? It's possible on some level.

[son omerc]

It really fits witrh RJ's style of showing how what certain groups believe to be the antithesis of how things really are. I sometimes think he takes this fog of war a little far, but maybe I'm backwards and it would make more sense if I were more worldly. I do sometimes get a kick out of some of the postings and wonder if maybe they are reading a different story. Sometimes what I think is aperfectly clear point is totally lost on other posters, although in fairness I must point out that I have seen some points in others posts that I can't believe I didn't see right off. So maybe RJ is not really so over the top.

[Luckers]

Ishy isn't good, he's just subtle and not given to wanton acts of destruction. In many ways it makes him the more dangerous advesary.

[Wolfsbane]

Absolutely, he understands it all and how it's supposed to play out. Everything he has done has served a purpose to reaching aMOL, and with it in sight he refuses to let it be jeapordized. The only two Forsaken that aren't absorbed in self-interest, I realized this when I was thinking over who Morridin has mind-trapped.. Lanfear/Cyndane no longer has her interest in sharing power with Rand (ESPECIALLY after he used the Choedan Kal w/o her and now the female one is goop [did anyone find that just a little bit of artistic manipulation how only the female one was destroyed?]... and that she tried to kill Rand) and Mog I couldn't think of a self-interest for the Spider. The others can be used.. Demandred has his hate of LTT used against him so he can be controlled, Semihrage just needs a few prisoners and a long afternoon..

Was there another reason for only those two so far being mind-trapped?

Ishy is as much a tool/weapon/hand of the DO as Shadar Haran, as I agree with the hypothesis that the DO will never be destroyed.. Defeated, maybe.. But Heartsbane is just as necessary as the Creator is, so don't expect anyone unleashing some balefire at the Pit of DOOOOOOM.

 

An earlier post made the point of the evil side working against itself and that's why Rand has been helped out so often (bloody ta'veren..) I agree partially with this point, as RJ was quoted in an interview when he talked about how his military exp has assisted in writing these books and it was the confusion and how the whole 'best laid plans of mice and men...' in war and other aspects of life. But Ish/Mor appears to be above that, above it all. He understands just what is happening as much as the DO. Why would the DO tempt being Nae'blis to Demandred? To Mesaana even? A teacher- Nae'blis? (Though given, I had some teachers in senior high that could've served the Father of Lies.. but still, Nae'blis?)

Rand will need everything and more to to defeat Ish, cause the Nae'blis is running the table with two aces up his sleeve and almost a royal flush.. Ish just appreciates an epic show-down, and jacks (o' the shadows) are wild.

 

Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.

It's time to roll the dice.

 

wolfs

[ElevenBravo]

Pride Goeth Before the Fall

 

Ishy is just a big headed anti hero with delusions of Grandeur. I agree that he is honorable, in a sick twisted way, but he is an honorable fool. He has always thought of the last battle as being his biggest victory. He can't seem to believe he can be defeated. Moridin is in the same mindset as Ishy was in the beginning. He was defeated three times, and will be defeated in his arrogance again. His arrogance has been the light's best ally.