Flinn's Healing

[krelianzg]

Did Osan'gar have anything to do with Flinn's discovery of the new male Healing techniques? They seem far more refined than the new healing discovered by Nynaeve, and it seems unlikely that a man who has only been working with the Power for a few months would stumble on complex techniques like that. I wouldn't be surprised if Osan'gar gave him some pointers so he can better serve as Rand's personal medic, helping to ensure the DO's edict is enforced up until TG.

 

Plus, I would guess that Aginor, being an incredibly talented biologist/geneticist, and incredibly strong in the power as well, would be one of the few male Forsaken well acquainted with Healing.

[Gentled Ben]

Didn't he nudge him by asking what would happen if he used all five powers in his Healing?

[SonAr]

Did Osan'gar have anything to do with Flinn's discovery of the new male Healing techniques? They seem far more refined than the new healing discovered by Nynaeve, and it seems unlikely that a man who has only been working with the Power for a few months would stumble on complex techniques like that. I wouldn't be surprised if Osan'gar gave him some pointers so he can better serve as Rand's personal medic, helping to ensure the DO's edict is enforced up until TG.

 

Plus, I would guess that Aginor, being an incredibly talented biologist/geneticist, and incredibly strong in the power as well, would be one of the few male Forsaken well acquainted with Healing.

 

I dont think so. Dashiva said a lot of times he is bad with healing. And even if he was lying to remain incognito, he could't teach flinn the waves and then pretend to not know much about healing, as that would give him away. Flinns super duper healing techniques after a few months of using the power, is one of the few things i hate in Jordans books. It just sound's too easy.

[The Dragon Reborn]

Ya Osan'gar did give Flinn a nudge in the right direction. Only realized that that was significant on my 2nd re-read. But I never figured out why. I mean we know the standing orders at the time were 'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule' and that was why Osan'gar got Flinn to heal Rand from the dagger wound....but why was Osan'gar helping possible future enemies learn new weaves??

[trakand_01]

I'm not sure, although I guess it is possible. It just seems that, although he is 'in enemy camps' and pretending to be friend rather than foe, this sort of healing is quite a major thing to teach your enemy. Moghedian taught major skills to N/E and got put in a cour'souvra for it...

 

On another note though, the first time we see Flinn's healing technique is after Rand has been slashed with the Shadar Logoth dagger by Fain. Darlin carries him back to the palace and Flinn heals him to a certain extent. He tells the AS that he locked the evil away from Rand's body, for a while, or something similar, until he is strong enough to start healing naturally.

 

Later in that book when Elayne and Nynaeve find the cache of angreal in Ebou Dar, Elayne and half the Kin are attacked upstairs by a gholam, which Mat eventually scares off when he discovers his medallion burns it (nearly killing himself in the process).

 

As he is helping Elayne to her feet and ensuring her health, one of the Kin is hovered over another, doing something which SOUNDS very similar to the actions which Flinn took - her hands a couple of inches over the body, moving (horizontally) up and down the woman. She concludes that the woman is alive and will live until they can get her to a proper healer.

 

Is what she does something similar to what Flinn did?

[krelianzg]

I dont think so. Dashiva said a lot of times he is bad with healing. And even if he was lying to remain incognito, he could't teach flinn the waves and then pretend to not know much about healing, as that would give him away.

 

We've seen Dashiva do other things that almost broke his cover when he felt it was important though, like when he flipped out at Rand right before Rand tried using Callandor.

[Gentled Ben]

I assume that Aginor helped Flinn learn to Heal properly because his own life might depend on it at some point, as even though they are future potential enemies, they are his current comrades. Besides, if it came to a conflict, I doubt if Aginor intended to ever use any weaves that Healing might effectively respond to. In the fights Rand has with the Forsaken, none of the stuff they throw at him would require Healing should he be unable to thwart the attack, you know? The same goes for his weaves. Most of those affected by Blossoms or Arrows of Fire aren't good candidates for Healing, as they're dead. Also, maybe it just grated on his nerves to watch someone with obvious Talent flounder at something that they could excell at if only they knew what he knew. I know that personally, I've been frustrated watching people almost get someiting that I have a better grasp of, if not necessarrily a talent for, until I've finally said, "Here, just do it like this..."

 

The Forsaken are also exceedingly selfish, so if watching Flinn *almost* get it right was disturbing to him in some way, he would seek to amend it, I think, especially since he strikes me as a know-it-all; he thrives on proving his genius, even if he has to be discreet about it.

[ignavus1223]

Aginor could also have been trying to get close to Flinn so he could turn him.  He and Taim are building up a new army of dreadlords... 

[krelianzg]

Taim may well be building an army, but I don't think that was Aginor's intent in infiltrating the BT. He stuck around Rand as much as possible, and I believe one of the other Forsaken mentioned that he had been tasked to watch him.

 

As I see it, Aginor was meant to spy on Rand and, in case the DO's edict changed, act as an assassin.

[Lord_Naryb]

I don't know but Nynaeve always used all five of the Powers not just Air, Water, and Spirit like the rest of the AS. So I don't see why Flinn couldn't have just learned it on his own, especially with Osan'gar's nudge in the right direction.

[krelianzg]

Well, all the Aes Sedai healing is pretty brute force, Nynaeve's method is just a more effective version of the same brute force.

 

Flinn's weave, on the other hand, is remarkably versatile - he can do everything from bring someone back from the brink of death to removing a bruise while leaving them with a runny nose.

 

That level of complexity and efficiency is, to me at least, a bit above and beyond even the impressive feats of self-discovery we've seen in the current Randland channelers.

[Pukah]

Aginor was a scientist, remember.  Not a military man at all.  Yes, he is evil.  But he probably thirsted for knowledge and was curious as a cat.  I would think he got Flinn thinking in that line because Flinn had a talent for healing (which Aginor did not) and Aginor wanted to see what would come of it. 

[yankee]

I think Flinn could have learned by himself.

After all he says that he joined the Black Tower because of healing. He states that he wondered why they were using the same weave for different illnesses. And thus he did some thinking and some research. It does not sound very complicated. Especially not for someone who is really motivated to advance the technology.

 

We also know that you seem to just have vertain talents with the one power which I guess are influenced by your motivation. Flinn has a talent for healing and I guess that everybody who is talented in that area can learn his way of healing. Only that the ither Asha'man do not really care about healing and thus Flinn is the only one.

 

And one more thing: Rand needs his heeling. He would probably be dead without it. And he is ta'veren. That might have contributed as well.

[krelianzg]

I think Flinn could have learned by himself.

After all he says that he joined the Black Tower because of healing. He states that he wondered why they were using the same weave for different illnesses. And thus he did some thinking and some research. It does not sound very complicated. Especially not for someone who is really motivated to advance the technology.

 

We also know that you seem to just have vertain talents with the one power which I guess are influenced by your motivation. Flinn has a talent for healing and I guess that everybody who is talented in that area can learn his way of healing. Only that the ither Asha'man do not really care about healing and thus Flinn is the only one.

 

And one more thing: Rand needs his heeling. He would probably be dead without it. And he is ta'veren. That might have contributed as well.

 

I really don't think that Flinn could have come up with those weaves entirely on his own. The fact that he has a Talent for Healing makes it even more likely that "Dashiva" pointed him in the right direction. I wholeheartedly agree with the fact that Aringor was frustrated with Flinn's five-Power Healing and I don't see how he would allow someone who had the ability to progress in a flawed manner.

[Paviel]

I'm pretty sure it was not in the Dark One's best interest to let the Shadar Mandarb kill Rand...

[Mr Ares]

Well, all the Aes Sedai healing is pretty brute force, Nynaeve's method is just a more effective version of the same brute force.

 

Flinn's weave, on the other hand, is remarkably versatile - he can do everything from bring someone back from the brink of death to removing a bruise while leaving them with a runny nose.

 

That level of complexity and efficiency is, to me at least, a bit above and beyond even the impressive feats of self-discovery we've seen in the current Randland channelers.

Wrong. Nynaeve uses all 5 powers, and uses different Weaves for different problems, and the strength comes from the person doing the Healing, rather than being Healed. Not just "brute force". In short, the only difference between Nynaeve's Healing and Flinn's is the side of the Power each of them uses. And Nynaeve discovered it all on her own.

[dyring]

Well, all the Aes Sedai healing is pretty brute force, Nynaeve's method is just a more effective version of the same brute force.

 

Flinn's weave, on the other hand, is remarkably versatile - he can do everything from bring someone back from the brink of death to removing a bruise while leaving them with a runny nose.

 

That level of complexity and efficiency is, to me at least, a bit above and beyond even the impressive feats of self-discovery we've seen in the current Randland channelers.

Wrong. Nynaeve uses all 5 powers, and uses different Weaves for different problems, and the strength comes from the person doing the Healing, rather than being Healed. Not just "brute force". In short, the only difference between Nynaeve's Healing and Flinn's is the side of the Power each of them uses. And Nynaeve discovered it all on her own.

 

I belived that too, and then there is that anoying scene with Sumeko where Nynaeve admits Sumeko does some things with healing better then Nyn

 

Now I´m not sure what I belive :p.

 

//dyring

[Mr Ares]

I belived that too, and then there is that anoying scene with Sumeko where Nynaeve admits Sumeko does some things with healing better then Nyn

 

Now I´m not sure what I belive :p.

 

//dead

I would say it's quite simple. Sumeko just has more Talent for Healing than Nynaeve. If you have only a little bit of Talent, you may be unable to do much more than Heal a bruise, if you have a lot you can do far more. Both these girls have a lot, but one has more than the other, and upon learning these Weaves she surpasses Ny as a Healer.

 

///////////Mr Ares, your friendly Dictator for Life, Hero of the Revolution.

[dyring]

I would say it's quite simple. Sumeko just has more Talent for Healing than Nynaeve. If you have only a little bit of Talent, you may be unable to do much more than Heal a bruise, if you have a lot you can do far more. Both these girls have a lot, but one has more than the other, and upon learning these Weaves she surpasses Ny as a Healer.

 

/////\/////Mr Ares, your friendly Rambler for Life, Hero of the Dictionary.

 

Just cause I´m bored, I´m going to point out that she(Sumeko) almost certainly knew those weaves before Nynaeve did, and it was the weaves she used while healing after the gholam attack in aCoS.

 

Nynave´s suprice comes at Sumeko using weaves Nyn does not know, and wich (judging from Nynaeves reactions) are most likely more advances that Nynaeves own healing in some way. Its not a matter of something Nynave thaught her.

 

//dyring

[Tyrell]

The evidence seems to be that if the Aes Sedai don't stick you in white and beat creativity / experimentation out of you then you come up with your own weaves depending on your talents/their strength.

 

Although I admit there isn't that much evidence, however consider, three people with a very strong talent for healing, all, independantly develop advanced healing weaves, when even the Aes Sedai with the strongest talent for healing in the whole tower (Samitsu) uses the standard Aes Sedai healing.

[yankee]

@Tyrell:

Well this has probably nothing to do with beeing a Novice itself. But you are right anyway. The Aes Sedai are just so unbelievable arrogant and ignorant of anything that is not Aes Sedai, that they seem to believe knowlegde will drop down in them at some point. They seem rather reluctant to do some real research. And the trainig novices receive is hardly likely to support creativity :-D.

I think the only reason why the white tower still exists and the reson why it is that strong is because the Aes Sedai are very efficient in suppressing competitors ;-).

[Mr Ares]

Just cause I´m bored, I´m going to point out that she(Sumeko) almost certainly knew those weaves before Nynaeve did, and it was the weaves she used while healing after the gholam attack in aCoS.

 

Nynave´s suprice comes at Sumeko using weaves Nyn does not know, and wich (judging from Nynaeves reactions) are most likely more advances that Nynaeves own healing in some way. Its not a matter of something Nynave thaught her.

 

//Rest In Peace

Yeah, confusing Sumeko and Samitsu there, Ny taught the Weaves to Samitsu, Sumeko knew a version of 5 powers Healing before Ny. Talent plays a part, so her being more effective could be down to that, and as we have seen in other cases there can be several ways to weave the same thing (Gateways and fireballs both spring to mind). Essentially, they both use variations of the 5 powers/different weave for different ill method, which is very different from the "brute force" suggested upthread. I agree with Tyrell that it's probably not that hard to invent, but creativity is stifled under the AS baby steps approach to learning to channel.

 

I think the only reason why the white tower still exists and the reson why it is that strong is because the Aes Sedai are very efficient in suppressing competitors ;-).

Almost certainly. Look at the way they removed all other competition when the Tower was set up, and how they have continued to do so. If people wanted to learn to channel, the Tower was the only way (except for non-Westlands cultures, of course). Tower dominance will probably only be restored in the future, with the Kin, Windfinders, Asha'men, etc. with change on the part of the Aes Sedai, which is long overdue.

 

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\In a world where all posters are equal, Mr Ares stands head and shoulders above all as one who is considerably more equal than the rest of you. That's why he is a Dictator, and you are all Dictated.

[lou]

i think supression might be a misleading term. the tower always knew about the kin, and in fact used the kin to control the "runaways". it is almost certain that the tower knew about the aeil wise ones, given the fact that the aeil were linked to AS during the AOL, even up until more recent events, AS would never have been harmed while crossing the waste.the tower does not take aeil women who can channel by force. the same can be said for the seafolk windfinders.

what might be seen as culling the creativity from the young girls might also be seen as a neccessary disipline to control power that can absolutely kill them or burn them out.

[Mr Ares]

Yeah, they got rid of every group who wouldn't submit to the Tower, and the one that remains in the Westlands does so because they are useful to the Tower, and because they are covert rather than overt - only the Aes Sedai and its own members know of its existence. Suppression is a fair term. As for groups outside the Westlands, Seanchan controls its channelers, good luck forcing the Aiel to give their channelers to you, the Sea Folk make a sacrifice - why bother going to the trouble of recruiting girls if you get some for free, and all they ever have is weak ones who learn very slowly.

 

As for culling creativity/necessary discipline, yes, it could be seen either way. The Aiel teach their channelers by showing them, and then expecting students to have followed and to copy exactly after one showing. Faster teaching, and harsher, but that makes sense in the Waste. Still, why not have a happy medium? If all you do is take steps in training so slowly that all creativity is stifled, then you stagnate. Which is what has happened. I understand why they try to protect novices and accepted, but it is ultimately counterproductive. Like raising children, you have to let them take some risks, but the AS seem to prefer the cotton wool approach. Developments happen when the culture is amenable to them. If everyone is resistant to change, none will happen. If enough people want it then it will. If they had been willing to encourage creativity, even at the risk of burnouts, then they would quite possibly have regained much of the knowledge they lost, be able to Travel, throw fireballs without arm motions, have 5 powers Healing, etc.

 

So, Kin (kept around because they are useful), Sea Folk ( not worth the bother, only a few weak channelers, all of whom go to the Tower anyway), Wise Ones (would you try forcibly carrying off an Aiel?).

[krelianzg]

Well, all the Aes Sedai healing is pretty brute force, Nynaeve's method is just a more effective version of the same brute force.

 

Flinn's weave, on the other hand, is remarkably versatile - he can do everything from bring someone back from the brink of death to removing a bruise while leaving them with a runny nose.

 

That level of complexity and efficiency is, to me at least, a bit above and beyond even the impressive feats of self-discovery we've seen in the current Randland channelers.

Wrong. Nynaeve uses all 5 powers, and uses different Weaves for different problems, and the strength comes from the person doing the Healing, rather than being Healed. Not just "brute force". In short, the only difference between Nynaeve's Healing and Flinn's is the side of the Power each of them uses. And Nynaeve discovered it all on her own.

 

I could have sworn that even the female channelers who use the five-power methods have commented that, unlike Flinn, they cannot selectively heal. I know Nynaeve can alter her weaves to be more effective for different types of injuries, but I was under the impression that the weaves still applied to the person on a whole.