Cyndane/Lanfear

[bcxanth]

Well here's my thoughts, assuming anyone cares. :)

 

Perhaps stilling/burning out isn't what accounts for Cyndane being weaker than she was when she was Lanfear. RJ has said himself that being able to channel isn't just a physical attribute or a spiritual one, but a combination of both. I think he stated this in one of his earlier blogs. Anyway, my theory is that the potential to channel is a spiritual one, connected with the soul, while how strongly you can channel is limited by some physical aspect. So therefore when Lanfear died in Finnland and was given a new body, her soul still had the ability to channel, but the body was inferior in some way and caused a limitation to her ability.

 

On a side note, it's further my theory that it's that physical aspect that is actually "cut" when a channeler is severed. By killing off that part of the body they essentially make the limit a 100% limit. They still have the potential, because of their soul, but are unable to tap into it.

[Mad Season]

The way I see it' date=' there are two things that point to a definite physical component. The first is that a person can actually be severed, either deliberately or accidentally. If there wasn't a physical connection, there shouldn't be any way that they can be permanently cut off from the Source. The second, and maybe stronger reason, is that there are strong implications that the ability to channel is partially genetic and only physical characteristics can be passed from parent to child. That is why the Two Rivers, with it's relatively isolated gene pool, had such an unusual number of people that would either channel on there own or could be taught to channel. I think in one of the books (possibly [u']The Eye of the World[/u]) there is mention that there are a couple girls a year that die from their first touchings of the source.

 

Personnally, I don't see any real problem with the idea that the body the soul is placed in needs to have that physical component and so must come from a person that can channel. We know from the later books that there are still quite a number of people around who can be very powerful channellers, if they are taught to touch the source. This wasn't known previously because the White Tower didn't actively seek people out.

 

If there was no physical link, it wouldn't be necessary to get "the best that could be found in the Borderlands" (not a direct quote) to use for Osan'gar and Aran'gar because any body would have done. They needed the best to avoid limiting Aran'gar and Osan'gar's abilities. When the need for a body for Lanfear came up, they were not able to aquire one that was good enough to support her previous ability level, and so now she is reduced.

 

Well I don't think channeling is purely based on the body for the following reasons:

 

1) Aran'gar, a woman, channels saidin at the same strength Aginor did, the DO must have searched a very long time to find such a genetic freak.

 

2) Moridin, Osan'gar and Aran'gar have the same strength as their past lifes.

 

3) Rand and Lews Therin, who are supposed to be the same "soul" re-woven into the pattern both channel, at approximately the same strength (Close to the male Forsaken). This is a pretty large coincidence since channelers of that power weren't common in the AoL let alone present times.

 

4) The Dragon, can channel in both cases we've seen and it doesn't seem that outrageous that everytime hes reborn he can. We have no evidence of Birgitte or Cain being able to channel in any of their lives, it seems people who are reborn again and again either can or cannot channel.

 

5)As far as genetics go, theres no modern example of an innate gift unrelated to the physical body so I don't see the relevancy.

 

If the ability to channel is only based on physical characteristics how can Aran'gar channel saidin? That, in my mind, means the "soul" of Aginor has the ability, independant of its current body.

[Jedimuppet]

The way I see it' date=' there are two things that point to a definite physical component. The first is that a person can actually be severed, either deliberately or accidentally. If there wasn't a physical connection, there shouldn't be any way that they can be permanently cut off from the Source. The second, and maybe stronger reason, is that there are strong implications that the ability to channel is partially genetic and only physical characteristics can be passed from parent to child. That is why the Two Rivers, with it's relatively isolated gene pool, had such an unusual number of people that would either channel on there own or could be taught to channel. I think in one of the books (possibly [u']The Eye of the World[/u]) there is mention that there are a couple girls a year that die from their first touchings of the source.

 

Personnally, I don't see any real problem with the idea that the body the soul is placed in needs to have that physical component and so must come from a person that can channel. We know from the later books that there are still quite a number of people around who can be very powerful channellers, if they are taught to touch the source. This wasn't known previously because the White Tower didn't actively seek people out.

 

If there was no physical link, it wouldn't be necessary to get "the best that could be found in the Borderlands" (not a direct quote) to use for Osan'gar and Aran'gar because any body would have done. They needed the best to avoid limiting Aran'gar and Osan'gar's abilities. When the need for a body for Lanfear came up, they were not able to aquire one that was good enough to support her previous ability level, and so now she is reduced.

 

Well I don't think channeling is purely based on the body for the following reasons:

 

1) Aran'gar, a woman, channels saidin at the same strength Aginor did, the DO must have searched a very long time to find such a genetic freak.

 

2) Moridin, Osan'gar and Aran'gar have the same strength as their past lifes.

 

3) Rand and Lews Therin, who are supposed to be the same "soul" re-woven into the pattern both channel, at approximately the same strength (Close to the male Forsaken). This is a pretty large coincidence since channelers of that power weren't common in the AoL let alone present times.

 

4) The Dragon, can channel in both cases we've seen and it doesn't seem that outrageous that everytime hes reborn he can. We have no evidence of Birgitte or Cain being able to channel in any of their lives, it seems people who are reborn again and again either can or cannot channel.

 

5)As far as genetics go, theres no modern example of an innate gift unrelated to the physical body so I don't see the relevancy.

 

If the ability to channel is only based on physical characteristics how can Aran'gar channel saidin? That, in my mind, means the "soul" of Aginor has the ability, independant of its current body.

 

who said the ability was purely related to the body? as far as I see it, you're the one who said it's purely related to the soul. I, and I suppose some others, are just saying it's not purely related to the soul.

J

[bcxanth]

who said the ability was purely related to the body? as far as I see it' date=' you're the one who said it's purely related to the soul. I, and I suppose some others, are just saying it's not purely related to the soul.[/quote']RJ himself said it's a mix of genetics and the person's soul.

[HighLordXanthus]

Mad Season,

 

I do not think anyone is saying that it is entirely physical. And I think most will agree that it is a thing of the soul, but it must be partially connected to the body or there would be no manipulation of it's forces. There must be some physical connection.

[LostRkive]

ok a few little deductions from WoT (the actual writing).

 

1) it requires a body to be ready to transmitigate a soul. (demandred's comment about moridin)

 

2) all DO reincarnations normally have the same amount of power they have before. ( comment by gren)

 

3) DO cannot create anything himself, only modify whats already there. (if you can find one thing mentioned anywhere within WoT that adamantly says otherwise, I'll mail you a dollar :roll: )

 

Ok, on to bigger better things. Has it occured to anyone that the reason that cyndane has less power, was because of Where her body/soul was located? The Finn's are bargainers and outside the pattern, its possible that because of the location of her body/soul, the DO was not simply able to take her soul and imbue a new body with it. Whether the bargain was struck by Lanfear and/or the DO, there is a possibility that a reduced channeling ability was the payment for being released by them. After all the Finn's seem to broker in souls.

 

Since the link to a soul and the ability to channel was already forged by the creator, it would not be necessary to recreate it. Hence a new body would not need to have the same ability naturally as the soul's predicesor. Rather the limitation to the DO's type of reincarnation would probably only be that a soulless body must be ready to receive the new soul, and that it physically needs to be near the breach in the DO's prison.

 

Btw, channelling is not truely physically based, a body has little to do with it, otherwise Aran'gar would be channelling sadar......the principle gender of the soul is determined only by what was given to them by the creator. So sure, if you wanted to, you could say it is partially physically based, when you're born/naturally develop. But after that initial determination, what channelling is linked to is the soul/conciousness. As far as the reincarnating though, the DO doesn't actually create anything, so he simply transmits what the creator already put in place and modifies what he/she/it can.

 

No Asmo? BF? heh.... how about trying something stupidly simple, DO can't reincarnate those that are not bound to him (perhaps can't keep a hold of the soul?), Asmo's bonds were cut. Otherwise he'd have reincarnated Lews therin and enslaved him in shayol ghul a long, long time ago.

 

Btw demandred mentioned that moridin can receive a final death, so long as there wasn't another body ready. Hmm, it is unlikely that Moridin just popped out of no-where, and his non-existence in the early books suggests that was because he was another character.... $10 says its ishamel (if I spelled that wrong, I don't care. I don't have the books with me.) He didn't die by balefire, he showed his loyalty to the DO by fighting/wounding Rand, and he was considered insane by the rest of the forsaken prior to his death. Also, demandred mentioned he was already insane (mad was the word used I believe) prior to his elevation to nae'blis. Debate away.

[Jedimuppet]

ok a few little deductions from WoT (the actual writing).

 

1) it requires a body to be ready to transmitigate a soul. (demandred's comment about moridin)

 

2) all DO reincarnations normally have the same amount of power they have before. ( comment by gren)

 

3) DO cannot create anything himself' date=' only modify whats already there. (if you can find one thing mentioned anywhere within WoT that adamantly says otherwise, I'll mail you a dollar :roll: )

 

Ok, on to bigger better things. Has it occured to anyone that the reason that cyndane has less power, was because of Where her body/soul was located? The Finn's are bargainers and outside the pattern, its possible that because of the location of her body/soul, the DO was not simply able to take her soul and imbue a new body with it. Whether the bargain was struck by Lanfear and/or the DO, there is a possibility that a reduced channeling ability was the payment for being released by them. After all the Finn's seem to broker in souls.

 

Since the link to a soul and the ability to channel was already forged by the creator, it would not be necessary to recreate it. Hence a new body would not need to have the same ability naturally as the soul's predicesor. Rather the limitation to the DO's type of reincarnation would probably only be that a soulless body must be ready to receive the new soul, and that it physically needs to be near the breach in the DO's prison.

 

Btw, channelling is not truely physically based, a body has little to do with it, otherwise Aran'gar would be channelling sadar......the principle gender of the soul is determined only by what was given to them by the creator. So sure, if you wanted to, you could say it is partially physically based, when you're born/naturally develop. But after that initial determination, what channelling is linked to is the soul/conciousness. As far as the reincarnating though, the DO doesn't actually create anything, so he simply transmits what the creator already put in place and modifies what he/she/it can.

 

No Asmo? BF? heh.... how about trying something stupidly simple, DO can't reincarnate those that are not bound to him (perhaps can't keep a hold of the soul?), Asmo's bonds were cut. Otherwise he'd have reincarnated Lews therin and enslaved him in shayol ghul a long, long time ago.

 

Btw demandred mentioned that moridin can receive a final death, so long as there wasn't another body ready. Hmm, it is unlikely that Moridin just popped out of no-where, and his non-existence in the early books suggests that was because he was another character.... $10 says its ishamel (if I spelled that wrong, I don't care. I don't have the books with me.) He didn't die by balefire, he showed his loyalty to the DO by fighting/wounding Rand, and he was considered insane by the rest of the forsaken prior to his death. Also, demandred mentioned he was already insane (mad was the word used I believe) prior to his elevation to nae'blis. Debate away.[/quote']

 

Moridin is definitely Ishmael. Lots of people (me, included) think Asmo was BF'd. Also, RJ has said channeling is a recessive genetic trait. That's proof it has enough to do with the body to prove my previous point.

 

I believe the link being severed that we were referring to is actually the link betweent the body and the soul, not the soul and the ability to channel.

J

[bcxanth]

I believe the link being severed that we were referring to is actually the link betweent the body and the soul' date=' not the soul and the ability to channel.[/quote']I don't think so. If that was the case, since everyone has a soul, even non-channelers would be able to be severed. Whatever it is that is severed, it has to be something that only channelers posess.

[HighLordXanthus]

i'll second that. severing cut's the body's connection to the soul where the ability to channel is.

[Jedimuppet]

I believe the link being severed that we were referring to is actually the link betweent the body and the soul' date=' not the soul and the ability to channel.[/quote']I don't think so. If that was the case, since everyone has a soul, even non-channelers would be able to be severed. Whatever it is that is severed, it has to be something that only channelers posess.

 

We've heard this argument already. Everyone's body has a connection to their soul, true, but only channeler's body has a connection to the sould that inolves channeling...Hence, only channelers can be severed.

 

What's hard about that?

J

[bcxanth]

Because you said it wasn't the connection to the ability to channel that's severed, it's the connection to the soul. Everyone is connected to their soul. Therefore everyone could be severed following your logic. You can't have it both ways. You can't say it's the body's connection to the soul that's severed, then say it only affects channelers. Whatever is severed, it's something that only channelers have, and since everyone is connected to their soul whether they channel or not, it simply cannot be that which is severed.

 

It's like saying that what makes a person a blademaster is their hand, and so if you cut it off they won't be a blademaster anymore, but it will only hurt blademasters to do that. So if you swing that sharp axe at someone's hand only a blademaster will lose the hand. But everyone has a hand, and if you swing that sharp axe at anyone's hand it's going to get cut off. Sure, it's going to make it pretty hard for a blademaster to swing their sword, but it's going to hurt a non-blademaster just as much.

 

So again, whatever is severed, it has to be something that only a channeler has. And because everyone is connected to their soul, then logically that cannot be what is severed.

[Jedimuppet]

Because you said it wasn't the connection to the ability to channel that's severed' date=' it's the connection to the soul. Everyone is connected to their soul. Therefore everyone could be severed following your logic. You can't have it both ways. You can't say it's the body's connection to the soul that's severed, then say it only affects channelers. Whatever is severed, it's something that only channelers have, and since everyone is connected to their soul whether they channel or not, it simply cannot be that which is severed.

 

It's like saying that what makes a person a blademaster is their hand, and so if you cut it off they won't be a blademaster anymore, but it will only hurt blademasters to do that. So if you swing that sharp axe at someone's hand only a blademaster will lose the hand. But everyone has a hand, and if you swing that sharp axe at anyone's hand it's going to get cut off. Sure, it's going to make it pretty hard for a blademaster to swing their sword, but it's going to hurt a non-blademaster just as much.

 

So again, whatever is severed, it has to be something that only a channeler has. And because everyone is connected to their soul, then logically that cannot be what is severed.[/quote']

 

I didn't say that, or rather if I did, I was using a kind of shorthand. Everyone has a connection to their soul that's phsycical. Further, channelers, embedded in that connection, have a connectino to the power. That's what was severed, not the greater connection to thier soul. Don't overthink it.

J

[LostRkive]

I find it a strange argument against my theory that since RJ said that channelling is a genetically recessive trait, that means my proposal was not valid. Genetics (even under my proposal) would indeed determine who eventually developed the ability to channel, and it's relative strength. However the link for channelling, although initially grown/born by the physical component of the body, does not necessarily mean it's tied to the physical body itself.

 

For example, although we are all born because of the physical bodies of our mothers, the death or alteration of our mothers does not determine directly our outcome. Unless our well-being is completely dependant on them at the time (as in when we are still being conceived/fetal stages). The growth and potential of the child are also partially determined by characteristics given to them by the mother, but unless one disrupts the mothers nutrition/health in a perscribed period, it will not affect the child directly. In regards to a soul, perhaps if you were to consider it as an entity that would normally be co-dependant on our bodies at all times, it would mirror this conceptualization. But because of it's normal perpetual need for co-dependence within a suitable housing/environment, it is not normally capable of existing simply on its own, unless certain preparations/evironmental factors are in place.

 

Now before you start saying "a person and their mother are two different entities and therefore this logic doesn't apply", I would like to point out that because of the nature of this world, where a soul can be retrieved from one body and imbued into another (by means of the dreamworld, DO or pattern), that the body and soul (in RJ's realm) the soul and the body are co-dependant but nonetheless individual entities. So long as the soul has a stucture or place where it can reside without losing cohesion, (very similar to a preborn child's survival so long as the technology and or personal are available and willing to designate resources to the cause).

 

The physical aspects of a person's genetics and subsequent physical body seem to provide a hypothetical womb for the developement of a specific soul. The soul and the any connections that are attached to it directly, do not seem to necessarily be bound to the body, more succintely they appear to be nurtured and housed there. Subsequently, if one soul that already is developed is taken from a body, and imbued into another, then the connections that the previous body was able to nurture (like the strength and power of ones ability to channel), would not then be curbed to the limitations of the new body.

 

Besides Gren said that the DO's reincarnations Would have the same channeling ability, considering that all of the forsaken are very powerful (thus exceptionally rare finds). If finding a body that had the same potential was a requirement for this, then it would hardly have been the case. Especially since Gren stated this about lanfear, and she was considered one of, if not the strongest, female channellers in known history (at that time). All this to get back to the point of; DO allowed Cyndane a "last chance" but her reduction in power most likely had to do with where her body and soul were located.

 

Also, on a side note, moraine didn't channel when she tackled Lanfear, but most assuredly Lanfear channeled within the ter'angreal. I'm pretty sure that that somehow broke the compact with the Finn's in some way, and since (as displayed by Mat Cauthorn) the Finn's do have sway with souls, at least when they are within their realm. That most likely the reduction in her power has more to do with the Finn's rather than anything the DO did.

 

So; DO reincarnated Lanfear, but she lost power do to the influence of the Finn's.

 

If you had that as a poll, that would be my vote.

[Jedimuppet]

I find it a strange argument against my theory that since RJ said that channelling is a genetically recessive trait' date=' that means my proposal was not valid. Genetics (even under my proposal) would indeed determine who eventually developed the ability to channel, and it's relative strength. However the link for channelling, although initially grown/born by the physical component of the body, does not necessarily mean it's tied to the physical body itself.

 

For example, although we are all born because of the physical bodies of our mothers, the death or alteration of our mothers does not determine directly our outcome. Unless our well-being is completely dependant on them at the time (as in when we are still being conceived/fetal stages). The growth and potential of the child are also partially determined by characteristics given to them by the mother, but unless one disrupts the mothers nutrition/health in a perscribed period, it will not affect the child directly. In regards to a soul, perhaps if you were to consider it as an entity that would normally be co-dependant on our bodies at all times, it would mirror this conceptualization. But because of it's normal perpetual need for co-dependence within a suitable housing/environment, it is not normally capable of existing simply on its own, unless certain preparations/evironmental factors are in place.

 

Now before you start saying "a person and their mother are two different entities and therefore this logic doesn't apply", I would like to point out that because of the nature of this world, where a soul can be retrieved from one body and imbued into another (by means of the dreamworld, DO or pattern), that the body and soul (in RJ's realm) the soul and the body are co-dependant but nonetheless individual entities. So long as the soul has a stucture or place where it can reside without losing cohesion, (very similar to a preborn child's survival so long as the technology and or personal are available and willing to designate resources to the cause).

 

The physical aspects of a person's genetics and subsequent physical body seem to provide a hypothetical womb for the developement of a specific soul. The soul and the any connections that are attached to it directly, do not seem to necessarily be bound to the body, more succintely they appear to be nurtured and housed there. Subsequently, if one soul that already is developed is taken from a body, and imbued into another, then the connections that the previous body was able to nurture (like the strength and power of ones ability to channel), would not then be curbed to the limitations of the new body.

 

Besides Gren said that the DO's reincarnations Would have the same channeling ability, considering that all of the forsaken are very powerful (thus exceptionally rare finds). If finding a body that had the same potential was a requirement for this, then it would hardly have been the case. Especially since Gren stated this about lanfear, and she was considered one of, if not the strongest, female channellers in known history (at that time). All this to get back to the point of; DO allowed Cyndane a "last chance" but her reduction in power most likely had to do with where her body and soul were located.

 

Also, on a side note, moraine didn't channel when she tackled Lanfear, but most assuredly Lanfear channeled within the ter'angreal. I'm pretty sure that that somehow broke the compact with the Finn's in some way, and since (as displayed by Mat Cauthorn) the Finn's do have sway with souls, at least when they are within their realm. That most likely the reduction in her power has more to do with the Finn's rather than anything the DO did.

 

So; DO reincarnated Lanfear, but she lost power do to the influence of the Finn's.

 

If you had that as a poll, that would be my vote.[/quote']

 

I don't follow your argument. You seem to agree that when stilling is healed, it's by restoring the severed connection of the one power coming in through the soul to the body, but then go on with a mother/child metaphor that doesn't seem to be a good comparison.

 

If Nynaeve found something to heal, something she was able to describe as "cut", I'm suggesting this means a physical connection on some level, which you seem to confirm. I'm going to leave it at that.

 

I'm just saying that if the Finns did something to her, it's done and gone once she dies and comes back.

J

[bcxanth]

I didn't say that' date=' or rather if I did, I was using a kind of shorthand. Everyone has a connection to their soul that's phsycical. Further, channelers, embedded in that connection, have a connectino to the power. That's what was severed, not the greater connection to thier soul. Don't overthink it.[/quote']Ok, that makes more sense. So you're basically saying the same type of thing I said originally. That whatever is severed is soemthing physical that only a channeler has. :)

[LostRkive]

 

I don't follow your argument. You seem to agree that when stilling is healed' date=' it's by restoring the severed connection of the one power coming in through the soul to the body, but then go on with a mother/child metaphor that doesn't seem to be a good comparison.

 

If Nynaeve found something to heal, something she was able to describe as "cut", I'm suggesting this means a physical connection on some level, which you seem to confirm. I'm going to leave it at that.

 

I'm just saying that if the Finns did something to her, it's done and gone once she dies and comes back.

J[/quote']

 

Out of curiosity, why is it assumed that whatever connection is "cut" necessarily means its grounded to the physical realm? Why wouldn't that connection simply be to the soul of the person? If the soul is connected/inhabiting a body then sure it would be presented within a physical context, but people have been shielded whilst dreamwalking, far removed from their bodies. Of course if/when their bodies are shielded in the physical realm, their projection is also shielded, but you could say that is because the soul is also shielded at it's grounding level. But once it is detatched, you can sever away at the body but it wouldn't do squat to a soul's ability to channel, especially if it is imbued elsewhere. Hence while I believe that, sure the ability to channel is initially determined by genetics and physioligy, the actual ability to channel is only truely attached to that persons soul. Which in my perception appears to be a co-dependant but nonetheless differing entity from the host body.

 

The mother/child analogy was to illustrate that even though something is produced by/within an organism it still can function as an independant entity. As long as there is a suitable enviroment conducive to it's survival. I think in RJ's realm, the soul/conciousness seems to also follow a similar pattern.

[LostRkive]

forgot a couple of other things;

 

1) the DO has not (as of yet known) reincarnated anyone that has been stilled/gentled and restored their ability to channel.

 

2) Rand stilled 3 sisters by simply crushing the "nodes" of his shield. He crushed a concious projection, not cut a physical tie.

 

3) in regards to regular reincarnation, I don't believe that a stilled person's regular reincarnation to a form with the ability to channel would disprove anything. Reason being, that the forces governing natural reincarnation are the same forces responsible for the creation of those souls and their ability to channel, thereby it stands to reason that they could easily recreate the link.

 

In support of the last, since healing of stilled/gentled peoples is possible with the use of sadar/sadin, it would stand to reason that people within that cycle, when reincorporated with the post mortal aspect of the pattern, would then benifit from the forces driving the wheel (saidin and sadar).

[Guest cwestervelt]

 

I don't follow your argument. You seem to agree that when stilling is healed' date=' it's by restoring the severed connection of the one power coming in through the soul to the body, but then go on with a mother/child metaphor that doesn't seem to be a good comparison.

 

If Nynaeve found something to heal, something she was able to describe as "cut", I'm suggesting this means a physical connection on some level, which you seem to confirm. I'm going to leave it at that.

 

I'm just saying that if the Finns did something to her, it's done and gone once she dies and comes back.

J[/quote']

 

Out of curiosity, why is it assumed that whatever connection is "cut" necessarily means its grounded to the physical realm? Why wouldn't that connection simply be to the soul of the person? If the soul is connected/inhabiting a body then sure it would be presented within a physical context, but people have been shielded whilst dreamwalking, far removed from their bodies. Of course if/when their bodies are shielded in the physical realm, their projection is also shielded, but you could say that is because the soul is also shielded at it's grounding level. But once it is detatched, you can sever away at the body but it wouldn't do squat to a soul's ability to channel, especially if it is imbued elsewhere. Hence while I believe that, sure the ability to channel is initially determined by genetics and physioligy, the actual ability to channel is only truely attached to that persons soul. Which in my perception appears to be a co-dependant but nonetheless differing entity from the host body.

 

The mother/child analogy was to illustrate that even though something is produced by/within an organism it still can function as an independant entity. As long as there is a suitable enviroment conducive to it's survival. I think in RJ's realm, the soul/conciousness seems to also follow a similar pattern.

 

It cannot simply be the person's connection to the soul because if it were, severing would turn the person into a Gray Man. Whatever is cut, it needs to be a trait that is something only channellers have.

[Inara]

i think the connection is to both the soul and the body.

to the soul because the severed fell the abscence very keenly, like a part of them is no longer there

to the body because they can no longer channel or even sense the source.

i have always imagined it to be like a string, or rope that goes through the soul to the body (metaphorically of course) and severing is cutting that between the two..the rope snaps back a little leaving a hole (like where tendon goes through muscle). the potential is still available, and intrinsically connected to the soul, but the connection must be made with the body for the ability to be used.

[Jedimuppet]

I didn't say that' date=' or rather if I did, I was using a kind of shorthand. Everyone has a connection to their soul that's phsycical. Further, channelers, embedded in that connection, have a connectino to the power. That's what was severed, not the greater connection to thier soul. Don't overthink it.[/quote']Ok, that makes more sense. So you're basically saying the same type of thing I said originally. That whatever is severed is soemthing physical that only a channeler has. :)

 

Well if you scroll back, you'll see that's what I've been saying since I started this thread. So, welcome to the club, I guess. :P

J

[Inara]

ive been trying to follow it along, but there is only so much

"'fins killed her"

"no! Moir killed her!"

"no! fins killed her!"

"no! Moir killed her!"

a girl can take!

 

it was making me dizzy :shock:

 

sorry about repetition, i just had to have my 2cents worth. :roll: :D

[Jedimuppet]

ive been trying to follow it along' date=' but there is only so much

"'fins killed her"

"no! Moir killed her!"

"no! fins killed her!"

"no! Moir killed her!"

a girl can take!

 

it was making me dizzy :shock:

 

sorry about repetition, i just had to have my 2cents worth. :roll: :D[/quote']

 

I started the thread over a debate I had with someone else. I was putting out there that she had been held by the Finns but then killed and the DO brought her back weaker.

 

That other person said she had never died and the Finns changed her appearance and power level.

 

Others chimed in and said that she was stilled while she was alive and that's why she was weaker when the DO brought her back.

 

My whole point was, stilling has a physical component, and thus would not transcend death, nor would she be artificially weaker in her new body.

 

I think I've been pretty consistent. That whole sould connection thing was some bizarre tangent, and I'm not sure what was going on since the person who argued the point with me the most now says there was a physical component after all.

 

I guess I can understand why it's confusing.

J

[Inara]

i'm not really confused, just making lame excuses for not following as closely as i should have :oops:

 

thats a nice summing up though, very useful for other lazies like me who skip to the last couple of pages.

as for my position, i havent really got one, though i imagine alot will be revealed by Moiraine's rescue. there are too many assumptions and unknowns atm to draw any conclusions.

all we really 'know' for certain is that cyndane is lanfear 'reborn'(or at least used to be lanfear), she is now moridin's pet, and it is her last chance.

[Jedimuppet]

i'm not really confused' date=' just making lame excuses for not following as closely as i should have :oops:

 

thats a nice summing up though, very useful for other lazies like me who skip to the last couple of pages.

as for my position, i havent really got one, though i imagine alot will be revealed by Moiraine's rescue. there are too many assumptions and unknowns atm to draw any conclusions.

all we really 'know' for certain is that cyndane is lanfear 'reborn'(or at least used to be lanfear), she is now moridin's pet, and it is her last chance.[/quote']

 

That's just it, though. My opinion is yours, that she is reborn, and is Moridin's pet. Additionally, I think her reduced power is a reminder from the DO of what hubris yets you in his service. That's why her name now means "Last Chance".

 

The thing is there are people in this thread who believe that she never died. They believe the Finns reduced her power level and changed her appearance. I don't buy it, but it's an interesting pov nonetheless.

J

[Trib4l]

You and I are at least on the same page with this one Jedi.