Aviendha, Elayne, Min. wtf.

[trakand_01]

Heh, I agree with the points why this wouldn't work out so well with Koboldin, there human beings, particularly human females, and they will get jealous. They would feel they'd have to proove themselves, or feel inadequite, and so many other reasons.

 

And before I get attacked by the female members of the board, I bring up sterotypical women because RJ's story is filled with them. So please, don't hurt me.  :'(

 

No i think you're quite right, for the vast majority of women, it wouldnt work. I think in the long-term, if Elayne hadnt got the babies, it wouldnt work for her. I think she's the one most likely to be uncomfortable with it for several reasons;

 

1) she's a princess, and she has the mannerisms of a princess. She's used to getting what she wants, and not sharing it.

 

2) of the 3, although she was the first to have any sort of relations with Rand (even just kissing) she is also the one who has spent the least time with him.

 

3) although she is the only one pregnant with his babies, he is now off, away from her and once again with Min. Granted he is unaware that anything has changed but the mental implications to Elayne of KNOWING the man you love is sleeping with another woman, and that even if he WAS there, you couldnt have sex with him anyway for at least 11 months (9 plus perhaps a couple afterwards) has to have an effect. She seems to have had the most intense experience of their relationship (short time = big results) however she may start to feel that she hasnt gotten the quality OR quantity that Min or Aviendha have, babies or no babies.

 

4) Min was aware she would  have to share him from very early on, she seems to have resigned herself to it. She also has the best deal.

 

5) Aviendha hails from a culture where polygamy is nothing extraordinary.

 

I wouldnt be able to cope with it!!

[koboldin]

No i think you're quite right, for the vast majority of women, it wouldnt work. I think in the long-term, if Elayne hadnt got the babies, it wouldnt work for her. I think she's the one most likely to be uncomfortable with it for several reasons;

 

My point, too - and then Jordan attempts to sell Elayne's Y-love complicity with a ridiculous series of POV's from Elayne that make you question if she is even capable of thinking rationally at all.

 

I've been pregnant, know/n lots of pregnant women, even my mom was pregnant!  Pregnant Elayne is a dumb*** that insults pregnant women with every thought of hers written into the story.

 

 

[CUBAREY]

11 months?  What, why should Elayne and Rand not have another night of passion if they get together in next few months.  What couple stops having sex at inception of pregnancy?  If you said 4-5 months then yea maybe your point has some merit. 

 

You are also seeing the entire matter in a very modern Euro-American view.  Polygamy is still practiced in some cultures and was widespread in the past.  Would there be issues of jealousy in a polygamous union yes but would they be insurmountable? Only if you think like a middle class Euro-American.  (There are more things in heaven and earth then are dreamt of in your philosophy). ;D ;D

[koboldin]

You are also seeing the entire matter in a very modern Euro-American view.  Polygamy is still practiced in some cultures and was widespread in the past.  Would there be issues of jealousy in a polygamous union yes but would they be insurmountable? Only if you think like a middle class Euro-American.  (There are more things in heaven and earth then are dreamt of in your philosophy). ;D ;D

 

See, the problem I have with this statement is that the WOT is set up with very much a European-type viewpoint.  The various Randland countries seem to be reflections or adaptations of France, Spain, Japan, China, the Mediterranean, Texas, England...and I kinda look at Saldea at Israel, for some reason...

 

The social standing of women in Randland in comparison to men is very much along the lines of Western cultural values, actually with more emphasis on the matriarchal status as equal/"better than" men.  This is why I use the Western culture as the touchstone for finding the polyamory disingenuous.  Even the Aiel culture, the only explicitly polygamous culture in Randland, has women with equal/high status.

 

When women have equality with men, whatever culture you look at, male -> multiple female polygamy as an accepted practice disappears (correct me if I'm wrong).  This type of polygamous practice is concentrated in cultures that effectively or overtly devalue women, reducing women to second-class status (or put men is a position of authority over women through religious practice).

 

Because the women involved in the Y are mostly from non-polygamous cultures, the effort Jordan goes to in convincing the reader that the three women have a close, loving bond without any true jealousy (I'm not counting the little pouts that are "pushed down" because they all love each other and Rand  :P ) rings as logically false, even within the strictures of the story.

 

And the male -> multiple female polygamy set up in the Aiel, without any evidence of female -> multiple male polygamy strikes me as silly, given the high status Aiel women are supposed to have.  Yes, the women are given control of marriage in Aiel culture, but why no evidence of brother-husbands? 

 

Also, Jordan seems to fall into a weird set up of implied sexual intimacy between women on an extremely high level, with no corresponding evidence of sexual intimacy between men.  Pillow friends between novices at the White Tower and Aiel sister-wives (that maybe are supposed to be sisters, but come off to me as almost or actually having more feeling between each other than with their husband) are all well and good, but what happens in those training Warder quarters?  Please tell me they get comforted and/or educated like pillow-friend novices - otherwise it's not fair!

 

And why, why, why...was Min still a virgin?  Come on, a 25 year old (about), living on her own not in her original village, having had romantic feelings  before...seriously, why did she have to be a virgin?

[Viezael]

Teehee.  This is one of my main problems with the books.  I have resolved it by realizing I really don't like Rand and want him to die (the romance is not the only reason for this...I started disliking him early on in the series).

 

I actually like Elayne (am I the only one?  I don't know...just never had a problem with her and liked her at the beginning...)  and I find her love for Rand to be totally unrealistic also.  If I had a budding relationship with a guy and he had to leave and I told my best friend to take care of him, and then I find out she slept with him and that this other girl I kind of know is sleeping with him on a daily basis, I would not be "Oh, it's fate, I love him anyways."  I would probably punch him.  Her personality seems to lead to a similar reaction.  I would also be dang angry that I got pregnant on my FIRST TIME having sex with him while Min can live it up with no consequences lol.

 

Which leads me to my next point...Min.  Unlike most people (I guess I'm really odd...) I don't like her at all.  She's my least favorite character--well...she's become my least favorite character.  She was cool at first, but then completely changed her appearance and her personality (in my opinion) for Rand and became a simpering "Sex solves everything" tramp. lol  (Harsh, I know--sorry, this is just my opinion, I hope I don't offend anyone).  Sex doesn't solve everything.  It's just making Rand not deal with his issues.

 

I like Aviendha and can see how she would be ok with sharing Rand with Elayne...but I don't think she's share him with Min.  That wasn't plausible to me. 

 

Anyways, the whole thing is messed up...and I just try to ignore that part of the plot and hope Rand dies at the end and the other girls can end up with other people.  (I love the theory someone said earlier about Min turning on Rand...that would make her character infinitely more interesting...but it won't happen probably. :( )

 

So yeah, there's my rambling opinion.  I basically agree with the first person 100%.  I don't think your first post was too strong...it reminded me of my own thoughts.  :)  That chapter in Winter's Heart actually made me stop reading for a few months too...weird.  I eventually finished though, and liked KoD especially.

 

Side note:  I'm from Utah and it angers me to no end that "Big Love" is reinforcing negative stereotypes.  I've lived here my whole life and only met one polygamist and she was an ex-polygamist.  There are the few who live in their little colonies, but there are those in other states too, and it is NOT a part of life in Utah.  But whatever lol.  (Sorry...I'm a little sensative...after hearing jokes about me being a polygamist my whole life from people I meet outside of Utah and then on my honeymoon a guy asked my husband which wife I was (he thought I was 4 or 5...am I ugly or something lol?)...I'm kind of angry about it.) 

 

 

 

[OzzieAlThor]

Real simple folks:

 

They are in a war. They don't know if the guy they love will die or not (and there's a good chance he will).

 

They are all uber young with uber responsiblities. They are all feminists (which most of the women in this series are) and therefore believe it's there right to act as they please (which would be true even if they wern't feminists I might add, the fact is that attitude factors into their thought processes).

 

A guy wrote this.

 

You're welcome.

 

Edit: I'll get yelled at for aying what I mean, not what I typed. lawl.

[WasteofTime]

Which leads me to my next point...Min.  Unlike most people (I guess I'm really odd...) I don't like her at all.  She's my least favorite character--well...she's become my least favorite character.  She was cool at first, but then completely changed her appearance and her personality (in my opinion) for Rand and became a simpering "Sex solves everything" tramp. lol  (Harsh, I know--sorry, this is just my opinion, I hope I don't offend anyone).  Sex doesn't solve everything.  It's just making Rand not deal with his issues.

 

I completely agree. Finally, some backup! Thanks. lol.

[Lune]

A guy wrote this.

 

That explains everything :P

 

There were implications of men who liked other men. But there haven't been any blatant guy on guy relationships, unlike the large number of girl on girl references. I suspected Dobraine of it to be honest.

[Vambram]

I don't know about some people, but frankly I am tired of reading people who say that they are fans of RJ and the WOT coming on here and bashing Rand, Aviendha, Min, and Elayne. Come on, my fellow WOT fanatics, don't we have anything better to do than to bash plotlines and characters of this great epic fantasy series RJ has written? :)

[Lune]

Well, one may be a fan but sometimes people like to look at things from a critical point of view. It brings a better understanding to the inner workings of the story.

[Vambram]

I don't mind criticisms and I bet that RJ didn't either. However, it just irks me to see people taking negative pot-shots at RJ's series and the very characters in the series whom have made WOT the best high epic fantasy series ever written. :)

Criticism is all well and good, but I would love to see more constructive criticism especially since I am confident that 99.9% percent of the posters here have never come close to having ANY books or fictional stories published by anyone. :)

[koboldin]

I always find great enjoyment in an involved story, but that enjoyment doesn't give a free pass to an author when they have a story line with so many issues - like the love-Y. 

 

Hey, I've also been a decades-long fan of Anne McCaffrey and Piers Anthony.  Being a fan of great authors doesn't mean to me that the authors are incapable of falling off a plot cliff, writing past senility's arrival, or succumbing to pulp $$ in dessicating a great fantasy world.

 

Besides, I like to complain.  Sue me.  ;D

 

I mean, very few of Jordan's readers still in the WOT series after 16 years (!!!) can't find something that is off-putting in the novels.  His fantasy world is intricate and incredibly involved and largely plausible within the rules of the fantasy world.  This is why I read the books, listen to the audiobooks, and come on fan sites like Dragonmount and WOTmania. 

 

But the man lost control of certain types of writing in the book - snorting, sniffing, shawl-adjusting, skirt-smoothing...his writing hit a point that was bloated and unnecessarily repetitive.  His characterization of women has real issues.  The love-Y is a messy, icky jumble not properly set up or executed.  In my opinion, his success led to a loss of editorial control that led to the series suffering.  WH was a very difficult book to enjoy, aside from Mat's section.  KOD was a vast improvement over the last three - in large part because the struggling story line for Perrin finally had some real progression.  A good friend of mine who is an avid fantasy reader and lent me his copy of Legends (so I could get the New Spring story in original form) way back when has basically given up on the series until it is over.  He hasn't read the last three books, in his words, "because there is half a book's worth of writing spread over 3 novels." 

 

In other words, just because I complain and moan doesn't mean I hate the series - in fact, it is because I like the series so much that I get frustrated when Jordan doesn't live up to my heightened expectations of writing, characterization, and plot development.

[Vambram]

To me, Winter's Heart was one of the better books in the series. Heck, I can appreciate a desire to complain, cause this soldier in the Army finds reasons to complain all the dang time. :D As for the love triangle, or Y as its now described, I don't have hardly any negative criticisms to toss at the major characters in the the series. They are human, and of course all of us know that makes them far from perfect. :)

Like many of the wot fanatics, I don't enjoy the often repetitive descriptions of sniffing, dress straightening, braid pulling, etc. etc, etc. The only improvement I would have suggested to the storylines involving Perrin and Faile along with all of those characters involved with them would be that I wish it could have been resolved by book 10, CoT rather than waiting until book 11, KoD.

 

 

:)

For over 27 years, I have been reading fantasy and sci-fi literature. Looking at my personal library, I see well over 300 books in my collection ranging from such authors like Feist, Brooks, Salvatore, GRRM, Piers Anthony, Ann McCaffery,Steven Erickson,  and too many others to list right now. Some of my collection is drivel, some is average fantasy stuff, and many of it is really excellent in my opinion. However, despite some of the minor criticisms I feel about WOT, to me there is absolutely no other series of books that come even  close to being as wonderful and GREAT as the WOT. :)

[imBored]

I hope that in the end, Avi knifes Elayne and Min and then she and Rand go off together. Rand and Mat are like my favorite characters (originally I didn't like Mat, but now he's like... legit (couldn't think of a better word).

 

So I pretty much agree with everything the TS said... except I kept reading the books, and I like the 12th book quite a bit... Mostly cause stuff actually happened in it.

 

Sorry if this is like reviving an old thread or anything, but his post was so inspiring I had to respond xD.