Shared Warder Bonds, Co-Bondees, Grand Bondees

[The Lost One]

Trakand 01 brought something up in another thread and it has been something I have been wondering about...and it lead to more questions.  Anyone's thoughts, ideas and/or relivent book passages would be appreciated.

 

1)  What do multiple warders of the same Aes Sedai feel and sense of each other?  anything?

 

2)  If Rand were to bond someone - with him already being bonded - what kind of connection would his bondee have to his bonder?  Would Elayne and Alayna be able to sense someone he bonded?  how would it effect the bond?  (it doesn't specifically have to be about Rand, basically, it could be about any channler who is bonded that bonds someone else)

 

3) Could two people that channel bond each other?

 

4) Feel free to bring up other strange warder bond relationships I haven't thought of. 

 

I am just curious how this multiple bonding thing will effect things now with all these male channlers out there.  They could end up with some very strange connections. 

[trakand_01]

Hey great topic!!

 

I'm just coming up to (in the next couple of books) the E/A/M/R bonding, and have something niggling at the back of my mind as to whether they could sense Alanna, or each other. i remember that they all go to get raucously drunk while rand and elayne 'get it on' because Birgitte can sense Elayne, and the others can sense Rand... I remember some quote (i think from Min) saying something along the lines of;

 

"(min) suddenly understood why Elayne was blushing: Rand had become a ball of fiery passion"

 

Or something to that effect. I'm pretty sure it was Min. I cant remember though if SHE knew Elayne was blushing, or if Birgitte had told her.

 

I also seem to remember some sort of disgruntled quote from Alanna about surprising her and keeping her awake when Rand and Min slept together the first time ;D

[elmis]

The E/A/M/R bonding means that they all can feel Rand. Kinda like the Warder bond, but also kinda like the first-sister bond (Aiel). I'm not sure if they can feel each other, would be kinda invasive for Min and Avi, as they don't really know each other.

 

Alanna has no idea of this, and does not feel them, though she went into a coma for a few days directly after the bonding so it had some adverse effect on her.

[trakand_01]

Other than as a tracking device, what benefits does Alanna's bonding of Rand have for the AS?

[dyring]

Other than as a tracking device, what benefits does Alanna's bonding of Rand have for the AS?

 

Not much really. Sure, they know that hes alive. They would know of any serious injuries.

 

Ofcourse, When she bonded Rand, Alanna expected to be able to use the bond to force Rand to do what she wanted. That kinda didnt work thou ;)

 

//dyring

[RobertAlexWillis]

1)  What do multiple warders of the same Aes Sedai feel and sense of each other?  anything?

 

As far as we know, nothing.

 

2)  If Rand were to bond someone - with him already being bonded - what kind of connection would his bondee have to his bonder?  Would Elayne and Alayna be able to sense someone he bonded?  how would it effect the bond?  (it doesn't specifically have to be about Rand, basically, it could be about any channler who is bonded that bonds someone else)

 

Good question ... the only channelers that we know of who have been bonded are Asha'man (who did not have any Warders) and the sisters captured and bonded by Logain and his men.  None of them are mentioned as having Warders, and Gabrelle is specifically mentioned as not having a Warder.

 

The odds of 51 Sisters having zero Warders seem pretty low (its not like they were all Reds) but until we see otherwise ... -shrug-

 

So, the answer is, I can't say for sure.  My opinion is that there would be no secondary connection.

 

3) Could two people that channel bond each other?

 

Probably ... although I'm not sure what weird effects that might have.  Remember Alanna fell out when the girls put their shared bond on Rand ... I'm not saying it would definitely have weird side effects, but it definitely could.

 

Feel free to bring up other strange warder bond relationships I haven't thought of. 

 

Asha'man A bonds Aes Sedai A who bonds Asha'man B would bonds Aes Sedai B who bonds Asha'man A ...

 

A whole new kind of circle ...

[DemandredFO]

Aes Sedai are much more adept at masking the bond than Elayne.  So I'm assuming for example if a green were with one of her warders she would just mask it and the other warders would feel nothing.  They are bonded to the Aes Sedai, not each other.

Even experts at masking can slip because Gabrelle said when she was with Logain the masking slipped and...  I'm assuming something similar to the elayne/Birgitte mirror effect happened.  Hope that helped

[Briwan Dragain]

I'm fairly certain that Warders feel nothing for each other 'cept the usual stuff. And that goes for anyone bonded by anyone else. The bond is between two people, regardless how many people are bonded to that person. You can only feel the person that bonded you, that's where you get your reference from. Same with what Trakand said. Min felt Rand's emotions, not Elayne's, and I would imagine had seen previously the effect of that particular stare.

 

Robert got it, though, pretty much. There is no secondary connection, though it hasn't been confirmed.. my guess is we'd know if there was some feeling between them. Otherwise, in my opinion, it's safe to assume there's nothing.

 

Um... yes? Two people that can channel can (and have) bonded each other. Unless you meant of the same sex, but even that I'm sure is a yes. It's a weave.. and the weave will work on anyone, unless proven otherwise. There's just.. no reason to do it, I suppose. But, hey, Alanna bonded Rand.. Asha'man have bonded Aes Sedai.. Aes Sedai have bonded Asha'man.. it's a huge bonding circle here, everyone is bonding everyone. It's craaaazy.

 

Hahaha, this is still fun though. Um, the weirdest situation is probably the two girls bonded, and how that screws with emotions. Wonder how that would be with two men? Not that Asha'man are likely to bond each other... or have any need to bond another man.

[Tyrell]

Briwan - "can and have bonded eachother"? who?

 

If you mean Elayne and Avi, their bond is slightly different, its a single two way bond that was placed on them by another channeler/(channelers?) and seems different in other properties to the warder bond. I think when he was asking about mutual bonding he meant say Eladia bonding Taim then Taim bonding Eladia back (which would be a most amusing situation I gotta say, what a pair!).

[Kura]

Correct me if I'm wrong here Briwan, but Tyrell, I think he misinterpreted your question, and responded to a question more like "Can one channeler bond another" , instead of how I took it to me, "Can two channelers bond each other, simultaneously." Or something to that effect. Using RAW's example, Asha A bonds AS A, and AS A then turns and bonds Asha A.

[DemandredFO]

That would be extremely odd.

[Gareth22]

Yeah, but that type of bonding could be effective as well.  Because, there is no set "authority" in the bond, and that would make the bondees treat or at least pretend to treat each others as equals.

 

AS bonds a Ashaman.  AS compels Ashaman, because she believes she is better or whatever.  Vice versa.

 

AS bonds Ashaman, and same Ashaman bonds same AS in return.  No one is "master" of the bond, they are essentially equals.  "You don't try to compel me, I won't try to compel you. Lets work as a team...."

[trakand_01]

Even if E/M/A can't feel each other, its' gotta be pretty uncomfortable around the breakfast table hasnt it?

 

Aviendha - so... elayne... do anything interesting last night?

Elayne - er... not really, you know... had a night in with Rand (winces whilst sitting down at the table)

Min - oh Rand, you DIDNT do that again, did you? What did i tell you last time?

Rand - you know, i'm not really that hungry...

[RobertAlexWillis]

LOL ... I have a feeling that moments like that, among many other reasons, will cause Rand to have three homes if he does survive Tarmon Gai'don.

[trakand_01]

On an aside, i dont think the whole 3-way bonding thing is going to help Gawyn's relationship with Rand at all!!

 

What's this, you slept with my sister, got her pregnant, sodded off the morning after leaving nothing more than a rose on the pillow, and you've got 2 others on the go too? Man, if you weren't the Dragon Reborn...

[Briwan Dragain]

Ooooh. Haha. I guess I did take that the wrong way.

 

But, if we're going to go that route, and me speaking from memory, um.. does compelling someone that can channel.. work? I mean, from the Aes Sedai bond? We know the Asha'man bond has some.. ah.. fun tricks to it. But I can't really remember any Aes Sedai that's bonded a male channeler command him to anything that he's done against his free will..

 

That is to say, from what I remember, the Asha'man that are bonded seem to really like their Aes Sedai and just want to protect/help them.

 

Also, possible or not, I don't.. really... see.. a reason.. to.. bond twice? I mean, it's already there. Even if the bond was set by someone else, it goes both ways anyway. And most of the effects seem to go both ways, though to be honest we haven't really seen what the Aes Sedai get except stuff that we know the Warders also get (they can draw on each other's strength, they got that ability to sense Shadowspawn thing, able to go x amount of days without sleep and such.. yadda yadda, though I don't think Aes Sedai get that last bit.. or remember nothing about it)

 

ANYWAY.

 

I think Rand having three homes would be a real good idea. He just got a whole new set of reasons to die at the Last Battle. Hahaha.

 

Sorry for my misunderstanding. Still don't see a reason for the double bonding, though. Since, I mean.. you already got the presence in your head.. you already got x amount of fun tricks.... I dunno.

[trakand_01]

would a warder know / what would the effect be on the warder if his AS turned Black?

 

We know that the AS take new oaths, are released from their previous oaths. I was just reading info on Elza Penzell, one of the AS who captured Rand, and are now with the Wise Ones. She still has her warder - does he know his AS is Black? What happened to their bond when she turned Black OR is he a darkfriend also?

[RobertAlexWillis]

She still has her warder - does he know his AS is Black? What happened to their bond when she turned Black OR is he a darkfriend also?

 

Elza's Warder Fearil is a Darkfriend, but not all the Warders of Black Ajah sisters are Darkfriends.  For example, Asne Zeramene has four Warders, but only one, Powl, is a Darkfriend.  (WH ch 10 )

 

Eldrith Jhondar's Warder Kennit tried to kill her after discovering that she is Black Ajah, but he only found out after she left the Tower with the 13 in Liandrin's group.  (also WH ch 10 )

[trakand_01]

So that would suggest they dont feel anything when she passes to the dark... But surely, if they were already bonded to her when she turned, they would have to feel such a massive emotional turmoil as changing ajahs?

 

Do they go through the arches again? or is it simply a case of being un-bound from one oath, and bound to a new?

 

Wouldnt some sense of 'evil' for better want of a word, seep through the bond?

[RobertAlexWillis]

So that would suggest they dont feel anything when she passes to the dark... But surely, if they were already bonded to her when she turned, they would have to feel such a massive emotional turmoil as changing ajahs?

 

They might feel "something" when they take off the old Oaths and swear the new ones, but then again, Aes Sedai can fuzz the bond pretty thoroughly if they want to.  Even if the Warders felt "something", they wouldn't know exactly what it was.

 

Do they go through the arches again?

 

No.  That is just for becoming Accepted.

 

or is it simply a case of being un-bound from one oath, and bound to a new?

 

That seems to be most of it, yes.

 

Wouldnt some sense of 'evil' for better want of a word, seep through the bond?

 

Apparently not.

[trakand_01]

Great thanks.

 

One last question (!!) this time about  Lan. When Moiraine went through the doorway, we know that his bond passed to Myrelle. We also know that Moiraine is not gone. So why is Lan going through the experience of having had his sister killed? Why do his eyes look dead, why is he almost emotionless apart from Nynaeve? Granted he is bound to be upset at believing that Moiraine is dead, but if his bond still exists (bound to Myrelle) then he would not experience the symptoms of losing his AS, would he?

[RobertAlexWillis]

We also know that Moiraine is not gone. So why is Lan going through the experience of having had his sister killed? Why do his eyes look dead, why is he almost emotionless apart from Nynaeve? Granted he is bound to be upset at believing that Moiraine is dead, but if his bond still exists (bound to Myrelle) then he would not experience the symptoms of losing his AS, would he?

 

The "death-absorption" reaction is caused by the forcible breaking of the bond ... and can be caused by either the death of the Aes Sedai, or by her forcibly being burnt out (which is, almost without doubt, what happened to Moiraine).  The alteration that Moiraine had made to her bond with Lan was set to trigger upon the forcible breaking of the bond, so the trauma associated with it still occurred in Lan, even though the bond was instantly transferred to Myrelle.

[trakand_01]

I see, thanks.

 

So when Moiraine returns can she not channel!? I havent got to that bit yet but that's a big'un!

[RobertAlexWillis]

So when Moiraine returns can she not channel!? I havent got to that bit yet but that's a big'un!

 

It hasn't happened yet ... its not confirmed, but its the only thing that fits all the facts.

 

[Lemagrag]

I see, thanks.

 

So when Moiraine returns can she not channel!? I havent got to that bit yet but that's a big'un!

 

Well, to be fair, she hasn't returned yet, so we don't know for sure. However, that's what a seemingly large majority suspect. The way I see it playing out, and mind you this is pure speculation, is that Moiraine will be recovered by Matt and Thom. I think Noal Charin (Jain Farstrider) will die in Finnland. We know that the three ta'veren need to be together for Rand to succeed per Min's viewing, so I figure Mat and company will likely meet up with Rand in short enough order after that, where he'll be able to direct Moiraine to Flinn for healing.

 

I suspect that with everything going on in the White Tower, Moiraine ending up at the Black Tower via Rand is much more likely than running into Nynaeve first.

 

Just my own idle speculation.