Cuendillar and a logical conundrum

[BrainFireBob]

It's indestructible because any attempt to use force to destroy it is converted to even more strongly align the matrix of its construction.

 

It's not indestructible because "it's so hard!" It's indestructible because attempts to destroy it give it a more rigid structure. It has a limited "strength," but an ability to convert any force directed against it to increase that strength. That is its "indestructibality," not being infinitely strong.

[animus]

Nobody has really answered my question. I could find out myself be re-reading all 11 novels but that seems a little time consuming for such a simple question. Did they ever state that cuendillar was indestructible to both magic and physical force? Or just indestructible to magic? Again, maybe a sprinkle of salt will do what an ocean of TP couldnt.

[animus]

Or on a different but similar angle, maybe they are just using the TP/OP too forcefully. Maybe it is more of an untying the knot than a bombarding the castle wall sort of thing. The Aes Sadai find it indestructible because they are very one-dimensional in their approach to destroying things. FIRE AND BRIMSTONE and nothing else. You know.

[BrainFireBob]

Nobody has really answered my question. I could find out myself be re-reading all 11 novels but that seems a little time consuming for such a simple question. Did they ever state that cuendillar was indestructible to both magic and physical force? Or just indestructible to magic? Again, maybe a sprinkle of salt will do what an ocean of TP couldnt.

 

There's not magic as such in WoT- it's a different way of manipulating and adding energy.

 

Any energy directed at Cuendillar reinforces the matrix. Energy is energy.

[animus]

That is clearly not true Brainfirebob. They make an example of magic vs non-magic in the books, and never do they make any such statement as 'all energy is the same energy'. Perrin would be a good example of the difference. Although he is one with the wolves he very much relies upon physical force instead of magical force to cause physical destruction. energy is energy pshaw.

[Thunderbomb]

Nobody has really answered my question. I could find out myself be re-reading all 11 novels but that seems a little time consuming for such a simple question. Did they ever state that cuendillar was indestructible to both magic and physical force? Or just indestructible to magic? Again, maybe a sprinkle of salt will do what an ocean of TP couldnt.

 

Well Moiraine took a chunk out of one of the cuendillar seals with a belt knife so either they are immune to magic, have a time limit to their effectiveness probably around 4000 years, or the more the DO's taint effects it the weaker it gets, either way it isnt indestructable forever

[BrainFireBob]

That is clearly not true Brainfirebob. They make an example of magic vs non-magic in the books, and never do they make any such statement as 'all energy is the same energy'. Perrin would be a good example of the difference. Although he is one with the wolves he very much relies upon physical force instead of magical force to cause physical destruction. energy is energy pshaw.

 

More LMAO- don't argue with a physicist about manipulation of energy, boyo.

[animus]

Why, was jordan a physicist or incorporate a great deal of science fiction into these novels? No. So why assume he based the laws of his book on the rules of terrestrial physics. And since when do physicists have good taste in the arts?

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Why, was jordan a physicist [?]

 

Yes. He received an undergraduate degree in physics.

[BrainFireBob]

And worked for many years as a nuclear physicist.

[Ndshacker]

It starts out as iron, witch is charged with both a positive and negative force.

 

It is converted into cuendillar. Which is impervious to any physical attacks, because of its durability.

 

When hit with the one power it absorbs it, perhaps it charges it further, so cuendillar is like a battery for the one power.

 

The seals present a problem the only logical explanation is the Dark one can draw the one power out of these "Batteries" and when they get weak enough "From lack of Charge" They can be destroyed.

 

He has only been doing this for perhaps two or three years, because thats how long he's been able to directly affect the world.

 

I wonder if the remaining seals could be "Rechaged" with a hit of one power.

[Asmo]

Well, most of the theories posted here converge onto one basic point, which is, in its essence, correct. Cuendillar is indestructible, but there is obviously some form of decay, of corrosion, that gradually weakens it until it is no more durable than common metal (it still remains cuendillar though). The progress is very slow, possibly as slow as a full turning of the Wheel (since no human so far has seen a cuendillar item break, but as it was mentioned the world isn't stacked with cuendillar items), and definately at least slow enough for cuendillar to last an Age. Furthermore, it has been stated that using the One Power on cuendillar strengthens it. Since it's already impervious to physical force, and One Power weaves don't affect it negatively, even Balefire, then that means that the "aging" process related above becomes slower when the Power is channeled.

 

Now, I believe that cuendillar coexists with the rest of the world, but is not quite a part of it. It's somewhere "in-between". I could say that the essence of cuendillar exists in the middle of the multiverse of the different Portal Stone worlds, vacuole, Bores, Tel'aran'rhiod etc. That way, when the One Power that is responsible for the turning of the Wheel is used on it, not only does it not affect it, but it increases its longevity, since the True Source is what is used to sustain the entire structure of worlds. Therefore, perhaps the maximum length for cuendillar's life is a turning of the Wheel, or perhaps the minimum. Noone can say for sure.

 

At any rate, an interesting point has been raised on the Dark One's prison. The cuendillar disks were used as focus points, but what exactly was used to create the seals? The One Power, or more specifically, saidin. And the number of seals is a very interesting one. Seven. Why not thirteen, which seems to be a symbolic number, or a hundred for the Hundred Companions? Why seven?

 

One of our fellow posters said the Forsaken's strength was used to empower the seals. I agree. The Forsaken were used to maintain the seals, against their will, of course, by being placed in the "outer rim" of the Bore - where the seals exist. In the inner part, the Dark One himself is sealed, but unlike the Forsaken, who still exist within the Pattern - on the very edge of it, to be exact - the Dark One exists outside of time and space. But why seven?

 

My answer is that since saidin was used to create the seals, saidin should be used to maintain them. Therefore, only the male Forsaken could be used for that purpose. Lews Therin and the others somehow managed to trick the Forsaken into directing their power so that it could be used for that purpose, and voila, Bore sealed. Of course, Ishamael wasn't really in the Bore like everyone else. He was perhaps like a Hero of the Horn in that sense, half-trapped in-between the worlds, not really in our world until he was spun out time after time, but not really in the Bore either. How many male Forsaken? Eight minus Ishamael seven. There.

 

Another point I'd like to raise is this. Lews Therin is crazy about killing the Forsaken. Lews Therin is crazy about breaking the seals. The Forsaken hold the seals. Perhaps as the male Forsaken die, the seals weaken. When Aginor and Balthamel died in the Eye of the World, the two first seals weakened until they could no longer hold. Perhaps five seals were not enough to fully contain the Dark One, so he could start working on another one even without the Forsaken who held it dead. As more of the males were killed, more and more of the seals were weakened and even broken. As it stands now, only Demandred is still alive (ressurecting them wouldn't have replaced the seals, of course), however, as the Dark One can influence the world directly, he didn't need to die for the seal to be weakened. Perhaps the True Power, being the opposite of the One Power in the same sense that the Dark One is the opposite of the Creator, can corrode cuendillar and thus disrupt the focus points of the seals, allowing the Dark One to unravel them as a channeler would unravel the knots of a tied shield.

 

Well, that's just my take anyway.

[Mr Ares]

So what your saying is that when they went to SG, they went planning to catch 7 male Chosen in the Bore? The Strike at Shoyol Ghul says they were there, and caught, by chance. How could they be sure that the right number were caught?

 

Why not thirteen, which seems to be a symbolic number

How so?

 

When Aginor and Balthamel died in the Eye of the World, the two first seals weakened until they could no longer hold.

No. Only one seal was destroyed at the Eye. Two were destroyed at the end of TGH. No Chosen were killed then, yet Domon and Turak's seals broke. Also, three seals remain unbroken at last count, when it should only be one.

[Asmo]

So what your saying is that when they went to SG, they went planning to catch 7 male Chosen in the Bore? The Strike at Shoyol Ghul says they were there, and caught, by chance. How could they be sure that the right number were caught?

 

No. They went there hoping to seal the Bore as they could, and grabbed the opportunity as the Forsaken appeared to face them. The seals were seven because the Forsaken captured were seven, they didn't just happen to be the same.

 

Why not thirteen, which seems to be a symbolic number

How so?

 

Thirteen Forsaken. Thirteen female channelers is the maximum link without the inclusion of men. Thirteen channelers and thirteen Myrdraal needed to turn a channeler to the Shadow. If RJ had to use a random number, why not another thirteen?

 

When Aginor and Balthamel died in the Eye of the World, the two first seals weakened until they could no longer hold.

No. Only one seal was destroyed at the Eye. Two were destroyed at the end of TGH. No Chosen were killed then, yet Domon and Turak's seals broke. Also, three seals remain unbroken at last count, when it should only be one.

 

As more and more seals break, the Dark One - or another greater force, maybe the Pattern or the Creator or whoever - can do it himself. That's obviously the case whether you support this theory or not.

[Mr Ares]

No. They went there hoping to seal the Bore as they could, and grabbed the opportunity as the Forsaken appeared to face them. The seals were seven because the Forsaken captured were seven, they didn't just happen to be the same.

 

Why not thirteen, which seems to be a symbolic number

How so?

Thirteen Forsaken. Thirteen female channelers is the maximum link without the inclusion of men. Thirteen channelers and thirteen Myrdraal needed to turn a channeler to the Shadow. If RJ had to use a random number, why not another thirteen?

Aside from the fact that there were many more than 13 Chosen at the time of the Strike (and for long after), I'm still not sure how any of those things count as symbolic? They all seem fairly literal to me. They used 7 because 7 were needed. Not 13.

 

As more and more seals break, the Dark One - or another greater force, maybe the Pattern or the Creator or whoever - can do it himself. That's obviously the case whether you support this theory or not.

Yes. But your theory is obviously bunk as the first seal broke when two Chosen died, and two seals broke when no Chosen died. Obviously there is no correlation between Chosen dying and seals breaking.

[Asmo]

Aside from the fact that there were many more than 13 Chosen at the time of the Strike (and for long after),

 

But not at Shayol Ghul at that specific time.

 

I'm still not sure how any of those things count as symbolic? They all seem fairly literal to me. They used 7 because 7 were needed. Not 13.

 

It is symbolic because thirteen is a number Robert Jordan uses often for no particular reason for several occasions. So if he wanted to just use a random number with no meaning there, it is a far greater possibility that he would have used thirteen, rather than seven. So seven possibly is there for a reason.

 

Yes. But your theory is obviously bunk as the first seal broke when two Chosen died, and two seals broke when no Chosen died. Obviously there is no correlation between Chosen dying and seals breaking.

 

Aginor and Balthamel died. Two seals broke. With two seals gone, the Dark One could touch the world. He worked and weakened another seal without a Forsaken dying. Then the seal broke. And so on.

[Mr Ares]

It is symbolic because thirteen is a number Robert Jordan uses often for no particular reason for several occasions. So if he wanted to just use a random number with no meaning there, it is a far greater possibility that he would have used thirteen, rather than seven. So seven possibly is there for a reason.

He doesn't use it that often. A few times. And what is it symbolic of?

 

Aginor and Balthamel died. Two seals broke. With two seals gone, the Dark One could touch the world. He worked and weakened another seal without a Forsaken dying. Then the seal broke. And so on.

Obviously it has failed to sink in. I'll try again (it will help me get my point across if you batter you head against the desk in time with each word). One. Seal. Broke. At. The. Eye. Of. The. World. Two. Cho. Sen. Died. Two. Seals. Broke. At. Falme. No. Cho. Sen. Died. I hope that helped. Although, apparently you seem to have difficulty with the numbers one and two, getting them confused. It's like Monty Python: "One, two, five". So there is no correlation between Chosen dying and seals breaking. There is one male Chosen left. But three seals remain unbroken. Whatever is causing the seals to break obviously has nothing to do with Chosen dying, as at no point do Chosen deaths match up with seal breakages. Now, because I'm still not convinced of your ability to take in this information, I will repeat: Two Chosen died at the Eye but one seal broke. No Chosen died at Falme but two seals broke. Two Chosen died at the Eye but one seal broke. No Chosen died at Falme but two seals broke. Two Chosen died at the Eye but one seal broke. No Chosen died at Falme but two seals broke. Two Chosen died at the Eye but one seal broke. No Chosen died at Falme but two seals broke. Two Chosen died at the Eye but one seal broke. No Chosen died at Falme but two seals broke. Two Chosen died at the Eye but one seal broke. No Chosen died at Falme but two seals broke. Do you understand yet, or need I continue?

[Avery]

They used seven because seven were needed. It's really no deeper than that, except of course, that it's a fairly obvious allusion to the seven seals in the Book of Revelations that signify the End of Times.

[Great Lord of the Dark]

The disks are breaking because the GL is slowly wearing away the patch on his prison. DUH!!! And since the "patch" and disks are connected, if one fails the other fails. This is the most likely theory because as the seals get worse all the things having to deal with the GL get worse. Ex. weather, bubbles of evil, etc.

 

Think of the "patch" as duct tape covering a leaking pipe. Overtime water will leak until eventualy the patch fails.

 

Which brings us to ask, how will Rand or whoever reseal the Bore? They will most likely use both saidar and saidin, which may mean the seal may last longer. Or will Rand be brave enough to use the Chaidal Kan or whatever again? We know he wins because of all the thingys at the back of the books, and that society has mostly or completely recovered.

[Mr Ares]

Which brings us to ask, how will Rand or whoever reseal the Bore? They will most likely use both saidar and saidin

They may use neither for the actual sealing. If the Pattern is capable of Healing itself, and all that prevents it is Shai'tan's presence, then Rand's job will be to somehow  force Shai'tan back and remove his presence.

Or will Rand be brave enough to use the Chaidal Kan or whatever again?

Surely the use of the Choedan Kal was covered by your earlier use of saidar and saidin? Of course, the female one is broken now, so there will be vast amounts of saidin to not quite as much saidar if they go with the CK.

[Great Lord of the Dark]

How will he force him back? Doesn't that mean he'll have to go to Shayul Ghul to actually feel the Bore?

 

Now that I think about that, I do think that is what may happen. Rand will go to the thinnest part of the Pattern i.e. the Bore, and try to have the Pattern heal itself. Or something along those lines. But I do not think that the One Power will have anything to do with it now.

[Fryn]

Its not a matter of resealing the bore. The bore needs to be removed and people need to forget that the DO even exists before the wheel turns back to the first age.

 

To me it seems like it is in the DOs benefit the longer the seals aren't broken. Rand can't deal with the DO while the seals are still present. With the DO able to affect the world atm, it is in its interest to mess up the world as much as possible, while others can't stop it.

 

My reasoning for this is based on how LTT reacts to the seal and wanting to break it =). Along with the little tidbits that are thrown in there by other characters. As soon as the seals are broken TG starts... when you really think about it who does it help more to delay the battle? the light or the dark?

[Hybrid]

How will he force him back? Doesn't that mean he'll have to go to Shayul Ghul to actually feel the Bore?

 

Now that I think about that, I do think that is what may happen. Rand will go to the thinnest part of the Pattern i.e. the Bore, and try to have the Pattern heal itself. Or something along those lines. But I do not think that the One Power will have anything to do with it now.

 

Interesting idea.  Sort of Moiraine's we will go to the Eye of the World and let the ta'vereness do what it will. IMO, that would be a little lame as the grand conclusion to AMOL though: Rand walks up to Shayol Ghul, the Pattern heals itself, go Light.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

did we come to a conclusion on the '7' issue?

 

going a little more indepth than '7 were used because 7 were needed,' remember that there are SEVEN AGES(for anyone requiring a symbolic explanation).

[Hybrid]

did we come to a conclusion on the '7' issue?

 

going a little more indepth than '7 were used because 7 were needed,' remember that there are SEVEN AGES(for anyone requiring a symbolic explanation).

 

Which has no bearing on the number of seals necessary.  As well say that seven was chosen because it's the easiest number to roll with two six-sided dice.  And yet, the Randlanders don't use only two dice...