Door frame in Tear, answer to all knowledge problems?

[Luckers]

Actually, the old addage about the snakes and foxes seem to suggest a real need for wariness in dealing with them. The 'only way to win is to cheat'? It suggests a power relationship that tilts their way.

 

Quote

And then, lets recall, there is the AOL name, severing. Lanfear even uses it specifically for something done by Asmodean. He severed his mother. Severing does not sound to me like the 'crushing' that Rand employed.

 

 

Let me point out what you yourself wrote:

 

Quote

You're quite correct about the difference between the ability of a stilled person to still sense the source and a burned out person not to. (recall, though, that 'severed' was an Age of Legend term that applied to both states).

 

emphasis added

 

So couldn't what Rand did constitute as severing? Especialy as you go on to say:

 

Well, recall that there is a difference in effect between the words severing and severed. Severing enacts exact human action. Someone is doing something to bring about the state of being severed. The actual state is seperate. Therefore a person who is burnt out, in their state of being unable to touch the power, have been severed from it. The nature of the sentence is about the severed person. The example with Asmodean involves usage of the word about the person who is causing the victim to be severed.

 

From another angle, to be cut of from the one power in the Age of Legends was called being severed from it. Therefore it applied to both stilling and accidental loss of the ability. The act of intentionally cutting someone off therefore has no linguistic effect on the inclusion of the people who were burnt out, and furthermore the surgical nature of the description holds. Severing.

 

Quote

Finally, despite the use of the term 'stilled' with Sashelle and the others, i don't actually think that is what occured. Rand crushed their weave, it was never his intention to still them, merely break what they were weaving. The result was that they lost their ability, but from what occured it seemed to me more to result from the stress Rand placed on their ability.

 

To me, all of it sounds much closer to being burned out than being stilled.

 

Sorta contradicting yourself, huh?

 

No, not especially.

 

True, they could have just overexerted themselves trying to counter Rand, but RJ wrote it thus:

 

Quote

The Power filled him, and as it did, he seized at those three soft points, crushing them in fists of Spirit.

 

It reads more like a ruthless attack on something Spiritual, like their link to saidar, than something physical, which is the only thing they could guard against using the Power, assuming that they were bound by the Three Oaths. If he wasn't threatening their lives, they couldn't use the Power as a weapon, even a defensive one. Of course, losing their link may well be to them like losing their life, but that is a personal conviction, and very open to debate.

 

Basically, they couldn't overexert themselves fighting Rand, because there was nothing they could fight.

 

Did you read what i wrote?

 

I said their abilities were overtaxed by the strain placed on them by Rands crushing of their weaves. A direct analogy is established in the same manner that misuse of terangreal results in an overtaxing of the ability. Again no direct personal overdrawing of the source, but never the less the stress of having their weaves wrenched by something else resulted in an overtaxation of their ability.

 

We even see a direct example of this in Egwene's encounter with the shattered access key. As Lanfear states, it should have killed her or burned her out, a real trap for an unweary Aes Sedai.

[The Dragon Reborn]

The 'only way to win is to cheat'?

I realise this is slightly off topic but I always got the impression that the only way to win is to cheat (In the game, that is) is because the odds were so ridiculously stacked against you. Otherwise why would Mat have ensured that Olver took all of Mat's dice rolls? Mat was worried he would alter chance somehow....

[CrazyMike]

After having read most the post from this topic,,, I have lost track of who said what,,, so!

    Lanfer was not Stilled or Burnt out,,, if she had been then she would have had to have been Healed,,, at this time Healing being Stilled is for GOOD GUY's ONLY,,, the DO can not heal severing or burnt out and niether can  any of the BAD GUY's...

    Lanfer's Loss of Power is due to entering the Twisted Doorway and paying the "PRICE" that the Eilfen and Ailfen demand,,, that price???,,, is a piece of the ability to Channel and a piece of a persons soul, and the soul is where the ability to channel is located...

[lou]

why would you think the bad guys wouldnt have the knowlege of healing stilling? halima (arangar) and dashiva (osangar) were in eqwene and rand's camps, so they would know that it could be done and how. i dont understand your reasoning?

[The Dragon Reborn]

It's not that they don't know that stilling can now be healed it's that they don't know how to do it themselves. In fact in one of The Forsaken's POV's they are marveling over the accomplishment of the Healing of Stilling. CrazyMike's point was that Lanfear couldn't have been healed by a fellow Forsaken/DO so logically she couldn't have been Stilled. Even if the Forsaken could Heal it, who's to say any would Heal her?

[Tyrell]

I have to say I find myself agreeing; of the forsaken the only one with any real motivation to heal her severing (if they knew how) was Moridin, and if he'd have done it then she would be at full strength (although the TP could be an unknown element) and she isn't as strong as she used to be.

[lou]

yes, the crazy ratman with the clever necklaces (properly accessorised) would not order the half healing of lanfear,to properly put her in her place? insane, that would be ishmael....by the way, mog was in salidar when nynaeve healed logain, suian and leane. she may have surmised that the half healing of the women but the full healing of logain was gender related.it was the talk of salidar at the time (impossible healing might cause a stir), so mog probably heard (saw) a bit of info. mog is also the other half of the red and black duo,with cyndane.moridin could have ordered mog to heal her, and mog certainly wouldnt have refused.

[Luckers]

All of the yellow sisters in Salidar were immediately informed of how to heal stilling by Nynaeve, and likely the rest who had even the slightest ability in healing learnt in the next few days (indeed, we know they were since we have Beonin's thoughts in KoD). Furthermore, by the time Cyndane had been recycled, all had been informed of how to travel, and the traditional privacy had already attached itself (note Siuan's comment that at any one time at least twenty sisters were off travelling). A simple dream message to Aran'gar would have had a Black sister in Shayol Goul and back before dinner.

 

 

[CUBAREY]

 

no one has mentioned that when Lanfear comes back she is in a nnew body.  I think that this means she was dead (why else would she be put in a new body?).  Now if the do resurrected her, why would she be not as strong as before? Answer, the DO was mad at her for messing up, because she wanted Rand-Lewis for her lover(even to the point of suggesting that together they could challenge the DO) she cause ASMO to betray the DO got Rand trained in the power and got herself killed.  The DO was unserstandably P.O.ed at her.  So he resurrects her but with a deminished ability to channel and under Ishy-Moriden's power.

[Mr Ares]

After having read most the post from this topic, I have lost track of who said what, so!

 

Lanfear was not Stilled or Burnt out, if she had been then she would have had to have been Healed but at this time Healing being Stilled is only known to the forces of the Light. Shai'tan can't Heal severing or burnt out and niether can  any of the Chosen. Lanfear's loss of Power is due to entering the twisted doorway and paying the price that the Eelfinn and Aelfinn demand. That price? A piece of the ability to Channel and a piece of a persons soul, and the soul is where the ability to channel is located...

We generally like this thing called "evidence", young lunatic. Do you have any evidence for any of that? And while the Chosen don't know how to Heal severing, BA in Salidar do, and they also know Travelling. Also, this runs afoul of Occam's Razor, in that it involves the invention of new powers and abilities when the simplest answer is that she was stilled, died, came back, needed Healingand got it, but lost power as a woman did it. This also exlains Moiraines absnce and lan's broken bond.

 

no one has mentioned that when Lanfear comes back she is in a nnew body.  I think that this means she was dead (why else would she be put in a new body?).  Now if the do resurrected her, why would she be not as strong as before? Answer, the DO was mad at her for messing up, because she wanted Rand-Lewis for her lover(even to the point of suggesting that together they could challenge the DO) she cause ASMO to betray the DO got Rand trained in the power and got herself killed.  The DO was unserstandably P.O.ed at her.  So he resurrects her but with a deminished ability to channel and under Ishy-Moriden's power.

We know she is in a new body, but surely there is another answer...(or possibly,,,) she was stilled and was later Healed by a woman. If Shai'tan weakened her, then he would be very stupid for weakening his own tool, and thus making it less effective. Counterproductive. She reamins the strongest woman going, at least among the Chosen, so why? Unnecessary. He used a woman because only women knew how at the time. Sensible...ish

 

 

Oh, and rumours of my death have been greatly exaggerated.

[Tyrell]

Forgive me if I've got the timeline in the wrong order, but wouldn't there be men who knew how to heal severing around at the same time, Flinn invented his new type of healing before Cyndane's appearance and there are certainly DF's at the Black Tower.

 

His invention of new healing techniques was at Davisha's suggestion (who we now know to be one of the Forsaken/Chosen) so I don't see why the Dark Side would be unaware of it.

[Mr Ares]

Tyrell, it's a possibility. I can't keep all these timeline details straight.

[Tyrell]

My point really was that if it were the case that DF men were aware of the method for healing severing then they would be equally available to heal Cyndane.

 

Also it doesn't seem to make sense that she was healed by a woman, Leane and Suian's power loss is described as being pretty large, throwing them down from being some of the strongest Aes Sedai to being some of the weakest, whereas Lanfear retained her position as one of the strongest female Chosen, if not the strongest (the only comparisons we have had is Cyndane-Moghedien and Cyndane-Graendal, as far as I remember anyways).

 

Although to counter my argument the loss could be a set ammount, rather than a percentage as I am presuming without any evidence at all. So Suain and Leane who are pretty weak anyway in the grand scheme of things see loosing 10 points of one power strength as a massive thing, whereas lanfear who is right at the top of the one power strength league table doesn't feel it so much. Although I don't really like any of the lists that give power numbers to characters the concept is good to use as a counter.

[Mr Ares]

My point really was that if it were the case that DF men were aware of the method for healing severing then they would be equally available to heal Cyndane.

I was aware of your point. Shadow may be unaware of cause of powerloss, maybe men didn't know at that point, maybe found getting woman easier for some reason.

 

Also it doesn't seem to make sense that she was healed by a woman, Leane and Suian's power loss is described as being pretty large, throwing them down from being some of the strongest Aes Sedai to being some of the weakest, whereas Lanfear retained her position as one of the strongest female Chosen, if not the strongest (the only comparisons we have had is Cyndane-Moghedien and Cyndane-Graendal, as far as I remember anyways).

 

Although to counter my argument the loss could be a set amount, rather than a percentage as I am presuming without any evidence at all. So Suain and Leane who are pretty weak anyway in the grand scheme of things see loosing 10 points of one power strength as a massive thing, whereas lanfear who is right at the top of the one power strength league table doesn't feel it so much. Although I don't really like any of the lists that give power numbers to characters the concept is good to use as a counter.

Gods no, don't let us get back into this. "I think they lose X", "evidence says you are wrong" ad infinitum. Only known explanation for powerloss is Healing by same sex, therefore most likely to have happened....typing like Rorschach, reason unknown...

[Tyrell]

Point taken.

[Luckers]

No, Flinn's discovery occured chronologically after Cyndane's reapearence. Cyndane's first noted appearence is in tPoD chapter 12, but in aCoS we see Moridin wearing her mindtrap. In either case this shows Cyndane's activity very far prior to Flinn's discovery in Winter's Heart.

[elmis]

Is it said anywhere that Lanfear actually died?

 

Loony theory, I know, but could she have for instance said:

 

1. I want to be able to channel. (if she was burned out)

2. I want to leave, alive.

3. Don't dump me at the Cairhien  docks. ;)

 

And boom, she's able to channel, out alive, but since they have a sense of humor (if you can call it that), they give her a new body and less power.

 

Before you guys even start, I agree, it makes a lot less sense than she dying in there, getting recycled into a new body, mind trapped, then healed by some Dark Ajah pet.

[Tyrell]

If she got out alive why don't we see her and what killed her to get her soul tossed into Cyndane?

[BrainFireBob]

The thing with Cyndane, is that it's hard to separate the sense of humor of the Foxes from that of the DO.

 

She's in a body as . .sexy . .as the one she had before. Even if not as strictly beautiful.

 

She is, perhaps, as strong or stronger than any female channeller at the time (Alivia is maybe, maybe not a problem here).

 

And she's back in Randland.

 

What really limits it is the ability of the Foxes to grant wishes. Either sense of humor explains the three things above.

[lou]

i think you are mistaking the DO's sense of humor for moridin's.i dont believe the finn's had anything to do with cyndanes loss of power and recycled shiny new body.

in any case, though the knowlege of cross gender healing may have come after lanfear was recyled, why not heal her the rest of the way now? or at some point before the cleansing, that might have been helpful.

on a slightly different point, was cyndane severed (stilled) after becoming cyndane? i dont understand why lanfear's severing would carry over to the new body?