Fain...Mordeth...whatever.

[The Dragon Reborn]

I was thinking, one of the things that impressed me about these books is the fact that RJ does such a good job describing HOW male/female channel. He quite comprehensively covers what goes on when someone channels. He normally goes into great detail regarding the HOW of things in the books, except in Fain's case.

We all know that Fain is one badass not to be trifled with, but we don't really HOW he does what he does. I mean we know the dagger has linked him Shadar Logoth and that he's pretty much this Mordeth character now. He seemingly can manipulate his surrounding (well that 'evil mist' thing, which is pretty dangerous and most likely a form of Mashadar) But we don't know HOW he creates this 'mist'/Mashadar, or HOW he manipulates it. Whereas we know a great deal about how Asha'man and Aes Sedai go about doing what they do.

 

I guess I just don't like not knowing what it is that Fain does...anybody have any opinions on how he does  it?

[Luckers]

My guess is some form of soul based manipulation of the basic pattern of the weave of the Wheel around him, much similar to the way ta'verenism works, only Fain manages to conciously control his effect. The whole influence of his evil is what led me to this idea, and certainly there is no real proof of any form, but yeah... thats my thought.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Jordan covers the details of channeling through the POVs of the characters who can channel.  Since they know what they're doing, we can see and understand it.

 

Fain doesn't even really understand how he does what he does.  He just does it.  So, to answer your question ... I have no idea how he does it, because he doesn't know.

[The Dragon Reborn]

Granted, Fain probably doesn't know what he is doing, but surely Mordeth should know shouldn't he? Although I can't remember how conscious of Mordeth Fain is (I think I remember something of a POV from Mordeth at some stage...) I mean I know Fain considers himself both Fain and Mordeth, but does he fully remember being Mordeth? 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Fain, in his current state, is not really Mordeth, nor is Mordeth a separate entity inside him.  Mordeth apparently tried to possess him fully and was unable to.  Moiraine is sure that this is because Fain's soul was touched by the Dark One.  While that certainly may be the case, I'm not personally convinced that Mordeth could have done it anyway ... we've not seen any other example of even incomplete permanent soul-transference from one person into another by any human (Luckers will argue this point for days, of course).  But whatever the reason, Mordeth as a coherent being does not exist within Fain.  Nor does the original Padan Fain.  They are well and truly mixed, and the new awareness that calls itself "Fain" is a true amalgamation of the two, not a body containing complete versions of both.

 

Does that make sense?

 

So while the new awareness (lets call him, Fain 2.0) has some, even most, of the memories of both Mordeth and Fain 1.0, he is not aware, by his own admission, of how his powers work.  Not all of his powers are from Mordeth or Aridhol per se.  Some of them (his ability to track Rand) are straight from the Dark One's interaction with Fain 1.0, some of them straight from Mordeth, and some probably a unique result of the mixing of the two.

 

To quote:

 

Fain did not really understand the tricks he could work.  A bit of something from the Dark One, perhaps, a bit from Aridhol.  It had been after there, after he stopped being just Padan Fain, that the ability began to manifest, slowly.  All he knew was that he could do certain things now, as long as he could touch what he worked with.

 

(LoC, ch 28 )

 

He is aware of certain limitations.  For example, from the same chapter:

 

Fain had no notion how to stop one of his tricks once it began

 

Special thanks to my research assistant, Mr Soy Boyo, who was kind enough to hand me the book and even find the chapter I requested.  It is an honor and a privelege to have such a loving and kind brother as a peon.  And who also made the ridiculous suggestion that Fain should call himself "Famordethain".  ::)

 

Lets see if he's a man and can restrain himself from abusing his modly powers for personal ... ah ... image maintainence.  ;D

[SBoydW]

..... ::)

 

Ladies and Gentlemen, my jester!!! Give him a round of applause.  Don't forget to put your outfit on.

[reyler]

Boyo is all man  ;)

 

What I don't quite get is, if Fain has both Shayol Ghul and Aridhol going on inside him, shouldn't those two separate but equal evils be making war in him? How is he then not subject to the same polarity dispute that Rand used to cleanse the Taint?

[Steel Axe]

to me it seems that fain's powers are mostly fear based... controlling people through their emotions and such... and since the dagger seems to increase paranoia it seems to add up... so maybe we arent sure exactly how he does it but we know some of his tools

[Great Lord of the Dark]

I want to know how both the evil of the DO and Mashadar/Mordeth can survive inside of him when that one asha'man said that "the two evils may destroy each other" when Rand was slashed? Does Mordeth have more control because he is inside Fain (if partially) and that he carries the dagger and the DO only touched his soul? My puny brain hurts

[dmanmiller34]

I belive that part of the HOW he makes the misty stuff is that its kind of like a Virus. He sucks all of the goodness out of people in a way feeds on it. Just look at anyone or Anything that has spent any amount of time with him. In a manner of weeks he reduced Over Zelous White cloaks into nothing more than a band of disgusting ruffians. I'm not as eloquent as RAW or luckers but I hope it still make sense. It does to me. ;D

[Nelal Hurcran]

So while the new awareness (lets call him, Fain 2.0) ... And who also made the ridiculous suggestion that Fain should call himself "Famordethain".   ::)

 

Why don't we just call him Ordeith? He does.

[reyler]

I belive that part of the HOW he makes the misty stuff is that its kind of like a Virus. He sucks all of the goodness out of people in a way feeds on it. Just look at anyone or Anything that has spent any amount of time with him. In a manner of weeks he reduced Over Zelous White cloaks into nothing more than a band of disgusting ruffians. I'm not as eloquent as RAW or luckers but I hope it still make sense. It does to me. ;D

 

The level of goodness in your average Whitecloak is debatable. Actually, his power is more in fostering suspicion and paranoia, which is a large part of what made Aridhol what it was. I'm still waiting for some real explanation of Mordeth, though, because fear and suspicion and What Evil Lurks In The Hearts Of Men coalescing into the Death Fog and Mordeth just surviving a couple thousand years as an evil spirit, that's probably the most heavily fantasized (re: lacking any in-context mechanics explanation) element in the whole story.

[The Dragon Reborn]

What I don't quite get is, if Fain has both Shayol Ghul and Aridhol going on inside him, shouldn't those two separate but equal evils be making war in him? How is he then not subject to the same polarity dispute that Rand used to cleanse the Taint?

 

Well look at Rand's never-healing wound, both types of evil reside there (According to Flinn anyway) and yet Rand is not torn apart by the two evils 'waring' with each other...I realize this doesn't explain the problem, but it at least shows that it's not an isolated incident.

[reyler]

Yes, but didn't Flinn do something to contain them with eachother and shut them off from Rand? And even after that, the thing is still a ridiculous bit of pain if ever he feels it (granted that could just be because it's an open wound, but...)

[RobertAlexWillis]

What I don't quite get is, if Fain has both Shayol Ghul and Aridhol going on inside him, shouldn't those two separate but equal evils be making war in him? How is he then not subject to the same polarity dispute that Rand used to cleanse the Taint?

 

Thats quite a valid question, because, as reyler pointed out, the conflict between those wounds would indeed have killed Rand if Damer Flinn had not isolated them from the rest of his body with the Power.

 

My guess is that, in Fain, the conflict manifested not in physical form (since he was never physically wounded) but in his mental state.  Padan Fain is quite insane.  Jordan stated that if he were any more insane, he would not even be functional.  ( http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152 ) The "wounds" to Padan Fain were in his mind and soul ... and his mind and his soul are both royally screwed by the result.

 

So, I would imagine that the two taints are battling each other, in what amounts to a rough stalemate, and the result is Fain's insanity.

[Luckers]

Indeed, my guess is that the only reason Fain even survived Mordeth's invasion is that he had already been pulling away from his ties to the Dark One. The split nature of his loyalties and mind, as shown in Baerlon, provided the method for the two different aspects of his personality to exists.

 

Furthermore, i suspect that he would be in a much worse position except in his encounter with Machin Shin. Prior to that he seemed completely unable to function, yet after he manages to--even to the extent of being able to avoid the suspicions of Niall and Elaida--both blinded, but also both intelligent and perceptive in their own manner. And concider Machin Shin, an amalgamation of souls. And indeed it recognized Fain as kin, as similar.

 

So basically my thought is that the two existed in opposition much as Robert said, but that through Fain's initial dissillusionment with the Shadow and his encounter with another devided yet unified being he has managed to stabalized some order in his nature. He is unstable, yet functional because of it.

[Ko´bal]

It´s good you brought that up Luckers! Cause I´ve been wondering what would happen if Mashadar and Machin Shin would meet. My initial thought was that perhaps the ways could be cleansed that way, but now I see that would be wrong...

[Luckers]

Well, it should be remembered that Mordeth, the soul that joined with Fain, is not Mashadar, the product of the death of the citizens of Aridhol. Though that being said i do see conciderable similarities between the two, and i do suspect that Mashadar is similarily formed by an amalgamation of souls.

 

Mordeth was certainly the cause and the catalyst of mashadar, but they are seperate entities.

[The Lost One]

Furthermore, i suspect that he would be in a much worse position except in his encounter with Machin Shin. ....... And concider Machin Shin, an amalgamation of souls. And indeed it recognized Fain as kin, as similar.

 

Can someone refresh my memory on this?  Fain's encounter with Machin Shin....I can't remember it.  I guess this means I need another re-read.

 

 

 

 

[Luckers]

Fain's encounter with Machin Shin is only ever refered to. Moiraine states after her interrogation of Fain that 'no sooner had Machin Shin enveloped Fain that it fled'. And that some part of it felt him to be kin, and some felt it to be an enemy. In any case it is since then that we have seen a progressive change in the nature of the Black Wind, including behaviour that seemingly is in service to fain.

[The Lost One]

Thanks!

[Nelal Hurcran]

Is it possible that MS actually took off with a part of Fain's soul, or what little was left of it. I'm refering specificly to the part that allows him to track Rand. We see in tGH that MS was waiting for Rand a two different waygates. ONce might have been coincidence, especialy as it was the gate that Fain had just been through, but two gates? Sure, Rand's ta'vernness could have altered chance dramaticly, but wouldn't it have done so when he wen't through the ways the first time, as well. Plus, it was trying to escape the ways, and get to Rand.

 

Just bouncing theories arownd.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Jordan specifically stated that "The black wind gets along with Mordeth because of professional courtesy." 

 

( http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=58 ) 

 

So, rather than taking a piece of Fain's soul, Fain probably just said, as they sat at tea, "Hey buddy ... I got this guy coming after me ... you know how that goes ... killed some friends, made some threats and all that.  Would you mind, you know, just keeping an eye out for him?  He's probably gonna come to these two gates ... you may remember him, just barely got away from you that time near the Blight?"

 

To which Machin Shin said "So sweet the blood so sweet the bones to crack the bones and drink the blood and suck the marrow ... oh ... um ... yeah sure, I'll keep an eye out.  More tea?  Mildred!!!! More tea for our guest!!!!"

[The Dragon Reborn]

How rude, Machin Shin, never offered his guest any biscuits for his tea. :-[ Some of those deadly wind soul-eaters can be so inconsiderate.

[Wayhey]

Machin Shin eats souls and Mashadar eats souls.  This would put them in direct competition with the Dark One (being lord of the grave and all).  As far as what explains them, they did not exist in the AoL which at least narrows the possibilities...