logain..could he be the saviour??

[dmizzle]

crazy idea but was just always in th back of my mind....  mins vision said he would do something great .. . . got me thinkin could his blood some how be spilled on the mountain taking rands place and rand survive and this putting logain into the realm of greatness???

[Davian93]

Nope that is completely impossible.  It is specifically Rand's "blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" not Logain's that sets humanity free.  Logain's glory most likely has to do with his leadership either after Rand's demise (either real or apparent) or in taking leadership of the Black Tower after it is cleansed of Taim's influence.  But as to your original premise....that is impossible.

[dmanmiller34]

Yes I belive that Logain will do something glorious at the TG. I am thinking more along the Lines that Rand dies at TG and Logain is the one that accually finishes off the Dark One or something along those lines and gives him glory. Or maybe its possible that he gets to become one of the heroes of the horn. That would be pretty gloriuos.

[Darth_Andrea]

I'm personaly not convinced that the whole "His Blood On The Rocks" thing isn't talking about the blood of the Aiel or for that possiably Gallad as he is also Rands blood. It's lose enough to be given several interpertations. As for Logain, The viewing or dream (can't remember) of Logain stepping over Rands body could be medaphore as well Rand has issues killing women perhaps Logain will step past Rand who will be forzen to attack them and kill those forsaken Rand can't bring himself to touch.

 

 

 

Darth_Andrea

[dmizzle]

the thing tat is akin me first think what i earlier said is tt the prohecy says the blood of the dragon reborn . .  it never gives a name.....

[wvlr]

I'm personaly not convinced that the whole "His Blood On The Rocks" thing isn't talking about the blood of the Aiel or for that possiably Gallad as he is also Rands blood. It's lose enough to be given several interpertations. As for Logain, The viewing or dream (can't remember) of Logain stepping over Rands body could be medaphore as well Rand has issues killing women perhaps Logain will step past Rand who will be forzen to attack them and kill those forsaken Rand can't bring himself to touch.

 

Darth_Andrea

 

Unfortunately, the "His Blood On The Rocks" thing is so broad and open that it could be the Aiel, Gallad or even ISAM/Luc.    Or even blood from his, never healing wound, that keeps breaking open when he gets in a fight.    Or maybe he just stubs his toe and bleeds a little, it does not say he will die, just his blood will be spilled on the Rocks.   He has bled several times already, I think, and

 

 

I kind of invision it it involving Luckers stupid "Body Swap" where Mordin enters Rand's body just in time for the old wound to finally burst and it kills him before Mordin finds a way to swap back.    

 

 

While  I'm thinking about it - LUCKERS.    Would LTT stay with the Old Body or would he go to the New One?   It would be great to get a Mordin POV where he "Receives all of Rand's pain and voices" before he dies, and maybe has to fight with LTT for the Power.

[Davian93]

The key is that however you spin "his blood" it does not equal out to Logain.  Logain might get all the credit for victory in the last battle and its aftermath but Rand will be the one who wins it for the light.  His blood, either literal or figuratively will be on the rocks of Shayol Ghul.

[The Dragon Reborn]

I've always assumed that 'Logain's Greatness' would be achieved by deposing Taim and leading the loyal members of The Black Tower into TG and to glory as a great General of the Light. The Blood thing has always seemed to mean either Rand's blood or the Aiel blood, but Logain's never seemed a possibility to me....it seems kinda far-fetched to me  :-\

But who knows, eh?

[Davian93]

I've always assumed that 'Logain's Greatness' would be achieved by deposing Taim and leading the loyal members of The Black Tower into TG and to glory as a great General of the Light.

 

That's what I'm leaning towards as it makes the most sense. 

[wvlr]

I've always assumed that 'Logain's Greatness' would be achieved by deposing Taim and leading the loyal members of The Black Tower into TG and to glory as a great General of the Light.

 

That's what I'm leaning towards as it makes the most sense. 

 

I ment to state something similar in the beginning of my post but got off track.

 

regardless - I concur with this view of Logain's contribution.

 

Especially in KoD, I think that Logain sees that Rand just has too much on his plate and is handling Taim incorrectly.  Somewhere in aMoL Logain will come up with a plan and sieze an opportunity to take on Taim, despite Rand's directions to leave it until later.  Many of his actions in the last few books seem to be leading in this direction.

 

I think that it will be too late as far as stopping all the Taim trained Dreadlords though.

[warriordragon]

I think Logain will become the leader of both the White and Black towers just as LTT was before the breaking.

[Child of Lir]

I think Logain will become the leader of both the White and Black towers just as LTT was before the breaking.

 

Very unlikely as Nicola's Foretelling speaks of the "guardians (Asha'man) balancing the servants (Aes Sedai)" after Tarmon Gai'don, so the two groups are still separate after TG.

[Luckers]

While  I'm thinking about it - LUCKERS.    Would LTT stay with the Old Body or would he go to the New One?  It would be great to get a Mordin POV where he "Receives all of Rand's pain and voices" before he dies, and maybe has to fight with LTT for the Power.

 

Lews Therin is a facet personality of Rand's soul, which means he would go along for the ride when the bodyswap occurs.

 

As for Logain. No he will not come to lead the united Towers. That seems pretty much impossible, however romantic the idea.

 

My belief is that his future glory lies in attaiing leadership of the Black Tower following Taim's fall. That being said, some suggest that he will claim responsibility of Rand's actions after TG and be hailed as the saviour of the light. Glory, after all, does not nessasarily mean literal achievement.

[Angel of Death]

I think Logain will become the leader of both the White and Black towers just as LTT was before the breaking.

 

Very unlikely as Nicola's Foretelling speaks of the "guardians (Asha'man) balancing the servants (Aes Sedai)" after Tarmon Gai'don, so the two groups are still separate after TG.

 

Don't recall that, but is it possible it could just be in numbers. As in they do unite as one with equal numbers? (possibly the Asha'man not taking the Aes Sedai name.)

[Child of Lir]

 

Don't recall that, but is it possible it could just be in numbers. As in they do unite as one with equal numbers? (possibly the Asha'man not taking the Aes Sedai name.)

 

Possible, but again unlikely as the the whole Foretelling deals with the aftermath of war. In full, the prophecy is as follows: "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

 

The second half of this suggests that the world is still divided by fighting and war, so anything other than an uneasy truce between the two towers would be unlikely for many years to come. Also, considering that Tarmon Gai'don is likely to occur within a few months of the end of AKoD, and the fact that most Aes Sedai are in fear of the Asha'man, and most Asha'man regard Aes Sedai with contempt, I think an uneasy truce is the best that can be expected. Two proud groups, neither one wants to back down...

 

By the way, Nicola's Foretelling occurs in LoC, during the bubble of evil event at Salidar.

[Davian93]

Lews Therin is a facet personality of Rand's soul, which means he would go along for the ride when the bodyswap occurs.

 

As Luckers states, LTT is a construct created by Rand to deal with the memories that he has received from his past life.  He is not real.  This construct has helped keep Rand sane or at least functionally insane as it may be considered when you figure in all the damage from the Taint.  The only way "LTT" will go away is if Rand actually deals with his own emotional state (i.e. stops trying to harden himself) and also deals with the fact that he has access to his memories from a past life.  Both of these events are possible in the coming book although not exactly likely.  He DOES need to deal at least with his emotional state of a victory by him will be no better than the Shadow winning.  Caddy/Sorilea should help with this as well as the return of Moiraine.

[Mr Ares]

Lews Therin is a facet personality of Rand's soul, which means he would go along for the ride when the bodyswap occurs.

 

As Luckers states, LTT is a construct created by Rand to deal with the memories that he has received from his past life.  He is not real.  This construct has helped keep Rand sane or at least functionally insane as it may be considered when you figure in all the damage from the Taint.  The only way "LTT" will go away is if Rand actually deals with his own emotional state (i.e. stops trying to harden himself) and also deals with the fact that he has access to his memories from a past life.  Both of these events are possible in the coming book although not exactly likely.  He DOES need to deal at least with his emotional state of a victory by him will be no better than the Shadow winning.  Caddy/Sorilea should help with this as well as the return of Moiraine.

Luckers stated nothing of the kind, and all the evidence indicates this is wrong. LTT is not a sonstruct. He is a real person. The fact that his memories and personality have seeped through into Rand is a bad thing, as this is, so we are told, a rare form of madness, and descent into terminal madness can be abrupt. Rand shouldn't even have those memories, that they are even there is a bad sign.

[Davian93]

Luckers stated nothing of the kind, and all the evidence indicates this is wrong. LTT is not a sonstruct. He is a real person. The fact that his memories and personality have seeped through into Rand is a bad thing, as this is, so we are told, a rare form of madness, and descent into terminal madness can be abrupt. Rand shouldn't even have those memories, that they are even there is a bad sign.

 

I misquoted Luckers...for that I apologize. However, all of the evidence if actually read does indeed show that LTT is a construct created by Rand's subconsious.  If you do a reread from FoH on to the present, LTT only shows up when Rand is distancing himself from his own volatile emotions.  Yes, Rand does indeed get real memories across the barrier that separates past lives from his current incarnation.  This fact is not in dispute.  Otherwise he would not have all the knowledge of the Forsaken, AoL, new weaves, the ability to draw, etc.  Memories do not make a real person nor are they a personality.  Rand has created this LTT persona to explain to himself how he can do these things and also as an outlet for his emotions that he has been walling himself off from.

 

As for "we are told this is a very bad thing". Yes we are told this by Semi who hardly has any reason to be completely truthful, especially considering she is a prisoner and coincidentally since she prides herself on her ability of tearing people down mentally.  As RJ would have said. "And you believe Ishy?!?"  How better to destroy loyalty to Rand among his closest followers than to say that he is about to completely lose it and go insane killing everyone ala LTT.  That is the one thing most of them fear will happen and have been ignoring since they knew he was the Dragon.

 

Rand shouldn't even have those memories, that they are even there is a bad sign.

 

He has them because the barrier between his past lives has been weakened by extensive channeling of tainted Saidin first by his use of Callandor in the Stone and then by using the Choedan Kal twice (once at Rhuidean with his battle with Asmo, and again at the cleansing).  If you go back and reread from FoH to the pres. that his LTT memories get stronger the longer and greater he channels and the occurences when "LTT" disappears coincide with Rand actually showing his emotions himself (destroying his rooms in the Sun Palace, his times with Min etc) 

 

LTT is a construct created by Rand to deal with those memories and his own emotional avoidance...nothing more.  Unless of course you prefer to believe Semi.

[Davian93]

Originally Posted By Callandor on Theoryland (July 14, 2006)

 

This explains it far better and with more detail than I ever could. Enjoy!

 

Lews Therin is a Construct

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Lews Therin is a Construct

 

From the title hopefully no one will be confused about what I believe. I’ll tell you flat out honestly right away that the entire time I read the series the first time through, I thought Lews Therin was real. It really seemed the only option. However, the more I looked at it, and arguments popped up, the more implausible it seemed to me. The people that maintained Lews Therin was real, over time, more and more seemed to only believe this because they didn’t believe he was a complete fabrication of taint madness, and did not believe he was a construct. Though they sure were willing to go along with a few points of him being a construct, and still maintain he was real. But their main reason for believing he was real was more or less “I don’t think that makes him not real, so he is real."

 

Terms: I find this best to do this now because people will get, and have gotten before, very confused with the words commonly used. These are what I mean by the following terms and uses.

 

Lews Therin: While I am quite aware Lews Therin was the Dragon in the Age of Legends, here I will largely be referring to the Lews Therin that is in Rand's mind. He is of course a voice/presence/personality in Rand's head and has and continues (so far) to grow in strength in Rand's mind. One should take all instances of his name to be referring to this presence in Rand’s head, unless otherwise designated (I feel they’ll be pretty obvious, but fair warning if there is confusion).

 

Lews Therin is “real”: We all know exactly what it is, but can be a bit hard to say it best. For me, it is what would effectively be the actual personality of Rand’s past life (Lews Therin) picked up and shoved into Rand’s head. It’s all Lews Therin, not a single aspect is Rand. It’s a separate personality, it’s the real past personality, and none of it is Rand.

 

Lews Therin is a construct: The alternate personality in Rand’s head has been created by Rand. A very simple definition, though very broad. Lews Therin by this definition is a construct if Rand makes even a single aspect of him.

 

Personality: I use a very simple definition. A personality is the summation of memories. I usually wonder why people would object to this, but I am continually surprised what people will argue against, even if it makes their job easier anyway.

 

Above are the two main views: Lews Therin is real or Lews Therin is a construct. There is another possibility in all of this, though I feel it is rather useless and no one truly believes it anymore. That possibility is that Lews Therin is neither a construct, nor the real Lews Therin. Essentially, I have only seen this view presented as Lews Therin being nothing other than Rand’s taint madness expressing itself. Why this view is useless I feel is rather obvious: whether Lews Therin is real or not, it is undeniable that the information that Rand has gotten “from him” is as real as anything. Real knowledge of the Age of Legends, real knowledge of weaves, real knowledge of Forsaken faces, etc. The knowledge is way too correct for it to be all a delusion of madness. This view is largely gone, anyway.

 

So, with terms out of the way, what is the big problem here? Well, the large reason anyone seems to believe Lews Therin is real now is: Semirhage says he is real. Case closed, pack everything up, we’re out of here…. Not quite. While Semirhage’s comments are very interesting, they are not an adequate explanation, if they are indeed true (and I do believe a few aspects are). That they are not adequate (at all) casts doubt on their authenticity as a whole, as I will detail.

 

Pre-assumptions:

 

1. Lews Therin is dead. He died at the spot of Dragonmount 3500+ years ago. We "saw" this happen in the books in the Prologue of The Eye of the World.

 

2. His soul was reborn as Rand al'Thor. This of course is the key facet to this entire series: Lews Therin was the Dragon; Rand al'Thor is the Dragon Reborn. Can't help but see that as crystal clear.

 

3. Time keeps moving forward in the series. By that, I mean when one event happens, time keeps moving, the Wheel keeps turning forward. It's not that there is a present in which Rand is living out this story that we read, and Lews Therin is hanging around 3500+ years in the past still living. Doesn't work like that. Time keeps moving forward after events happen.

 

4. The barrier degradation theory holds true. By this I mean that for every soul that is reborn in a new life, there is a barrier placed between that new life and the previous incarnation. With sufficient amount the taint can break down this barrier, and allow memories from the previous incarnation to seep into the new life. Also, the taint works on two different levels: the degradation of the barrier and the general taint madness. They come from the same source (the taint obviously), but effect people separately.

 

Now, so far I have yet to see someone present a valid reason for objecting to any of these pre-assumptions, with the exception of number four. Even those that might object to number four don’t completely object to it. However, I will address such objectors in due time. For now, just remember the pre-assumptions, and be aware of the problem.

 

Abstract:

 

In broad terms, what I believe happened is the application of barrier degradation. Rand, being an extremely powerful channeler and dealing quite a bit with even more powerful items like angreal and sa’angreal, has had a tremendous amount of the taint enter into him and degrade the barrier between his past and present life. This allowed the memories of his former life, Lews Therin, to seep into Rand’s mind. This roughly started at the end of The Dragon Reborn/the start of The Shadow Rising.

 

Once this started, it’s easy to believe this was very awkward for Rand. Suddenly he knew things he should not know, and was remembering things he did not do and should not remember. These memories were suppressed by Rand, consciously and subconsciously; think of it as one of the most basic defense mechanisms. Throughout the series, Rand has also suppressed more and more his emotions in a need to be “harder” to be the “Dragon Reborn” as he sees it. It depends on the person whether to divide the simple “stress” of being the Dragon Reborn from the suppression of emotions, as well.

 

Through the suppression of emotions, of the memories from Lews Therin, the stress of being the Dragon Reborn, and general taint madness, Rand’s personality has, for lack of better terms, fractured into two personalities. One is himself, Rand al’Thor. The other is what Rand has come to call Lews Therin. This second personality, while based off of genuine memories from Lews Therin, is nevertheless a construct made by Rand. Since this personality is based off of genuine memories of Rand’s past life, these memories have “fleshed out” the personality, but the core of Lews Therin is truly Rand. When Lews Therin talks in Rand’s mind, it is really Rand talking to himself; Lews Therin’s emotions are really Rand’s.

 

Some people argue that because I believe Rand has genuine memories from Lews Therin that I believe his personality is in Rand’s head. This would be true if Rand had all of Lews Therin’s memories in his head. I do not believe he does; Rand’s barrier may be degraded, but it’s not completely gone (nor will it be, since the taint is now gone). There isn’t a part and parceling of this.

 

 

Quote:

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Q: The question is, with Rand and LTT, do they have 1 soul or 2 souls in the body?

 

A: They have 1 soul with 2 personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I cobbled together.

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Jordan didn't say Rand has one and a half personalities -- there are two in his head. Either he's got Lews Therin's entire personality in his head (meaning he has all his memories again), or he's received a few memories from Lews Therin, and created the personality on his own off the basis of those real memories.

 

I want to make it perfectly clear once again. Genuine memories from Lews Therin’s life entered into Rand’s mind. Rand constructed Lews Therin off of the basis of those memories to deal with them. Hence why Lews Therin is a construct made by Rand. With that settled, I will now show why I believe this, and specifically how this works. Before I do that, I want to make one final thing clear: this is not everything in line of evidence. I’ve had to reduce so much in this theory already, and there are multitudes of examples of just about everything that I present here. The only reasons that I do not present this in full examples is that some might certainly feel it insulting to be so berated for some points, and to cut down on length so that more people will read it. This is long, but it could easily be twice as long or more with everything put in. If you wish more examples, please just ask for them and I will gladly give more.

 

General points:

 

My first question is if Lews Therin is real, how is he there? Remember, Lews Therin is dead. He’s been dead for 3500+ years. The answer I generally have heard is my own: the barrier between Rand’s past and present life has degraded and Lews Therin has come in. See what I mean about taking aspects of Lews Therin being a construct and using them when it suits?

 

But this sadly does not answer the question. It just implies that when a person dies, they’re personality for all time remains “working.” I can’t help but see it as common sense that when a person dies, hey, they’re personality no longer “works.” Once this is brought up, it generally is replied that Lews Therin was “activated” again. Ok, but how? By what? One of my favorites was that he was re-activated simply by entering into Rand’s head. This keeps the second question unanswered: by what? The answer I received was: by Rand. Which, from what I read of it, means that it’s really Rand activating Lews Therin -- almost like saying a glove isn’t activated unless there’s a hand inside of it. But doesn’t that just make Lews Therin an immediate construct? Without Rand, he’s a dead unactivated, essentially, shell. It’s all Rand’s work that he’s going again. It’s like a puppet without the puppeteer with his hand inside the puppet; the puppet isn’t a “real person” when activated by the puppeteer -- it's just a construct being manipulated.

 

Another common answer I would receive is: the taint re-activated Lews Therin. This just seems to be trying to pass one thing off as another. How does the taint re-activate (or activate) anything? It doesn’t. The taint corrupts and destroys. That’s why it is dangerous. The taint is the way to allow Lews Therin to enter into Rand via the degradation of the barrier; “activating” him is a completely different thing. This either is just completely incorrect, or is an attempt to put forward an answer without addressing the question at all.

 

So I feel the question becomes not how a dead man became alive again, but what can come from a dead man that need not be alive at all. The answer is very simple: his memories. Memories are neither alive nor dead; they’re simply data.

 

My second question is (as immensely silly as this sounds), is Lews Therin “there” or is he not? It sounds humiliating to even ask. Of course he’s there. He’s talking to Rand at such and such instance is he not? But I’ve seen people try to explain that Lews Therin is both real and not there. For example, I’ve heard that Lews Therin is more or less like those tilting desk displays of colored water. It moves to one side, then due to weight it shifts to the other side, then back again, tip, tip back, tip, tip back -- a constant ebb and flow. This just brings up yet another question: just where does Lews Therin “flow” into? One side is obviously Rand’s head, and the other is…what?

 

It’s not the other side of the barrier. There is only reference to memories flowing into Rand; never out. We don’t have Rand suddenly forgetting what he has done in the past and being completely unable to remember things because parts of his memories have “ebbed” into Lews Therin’s “side” of the barrier. This just becomes ridiculous. What if Rand “ebbs” into Lews Therin’s side of the barrier? These people are apparently already willing to believe one personality can do this, why not another? What about habits, hobbies, emotions, etc. (the things some people claim are what shows that more than memories pass through the barrier)? When Lews Therin is “ebbing” from Rand’s side, is he there? The obvious answer is no, and that is the entire point. But as people love to point out, Lews Therin never truly goes away (even when Rand suppresses him, Lews Therin is still there) -- yet they want to treat this as an exception. On another tangent, should there be repeated cycles of this then, if we chose to accept this? Lews Therin should be disappearing with regularity, yet they still point out that he never truly goes away.

 

As well, if Lews Therin is “ebbing” from Rand, doesn’t that imply that parts of him are slowly shifting back to wherever he apparently “goes?” If he’s “ebbing” it’s not that he’s there, then he’s gone like a light switch being turned on. It’s a gradual there, less is there, even less is there, now it’s gone, now it’s coming back, now more is back, now he’s back in full (I guess more like a dimmer). That one would think Lews Therin was totaled to be parts sure casts doubt on him being real. Again, if one single part is made by Rand Lews Therin is by definition a construct; as well again, Jordan said Rand has two personalities, not a parceling of personalities, let alone a constantly ebbing and reappearing sift of a personality. So the obvious answer is that Lews Therin cannot at all be parted -- he’s all there or he’s not there. Which just makes the idea of him “ebbing” a pure contradiction.

 

My third question becomes when was the real Lews Therin “there”? We know when Lews Therin first speaks:

 

 

Quote:

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TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 2 - Rhuidean

 

Ilyena never flashed her temper at me when she was angry with herself. When she gave me the rough side of her tongue, it was because she. . . His mind froze for an instant. He had never met a woman named Ilyena in his life. But he could summon up a face for the name, dimly; a pretty face, skin like cream, golden hair exactly the shade of Elayne's. This had to be the madness. Remembering an imaginary woman. Perhaps one day he would find himself having conversations with people who were not there.

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We know the early signs that are for sure what will become Lews Therin:

 

 

Quote:

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TITLE: Shadow Rising

CHAPTER: 9 - Decisions

 

His stomach lurched. "Do you mean to kill me, then? The Light burn you, I--"

 

"Kill you?" she spat incredulously. "Kill you! I mean to have you, forever. You were mine long before that pale-haired milksop stole you. Before she ever saw you. You loved me!"

 

"And you loved power!" For a moment he felt dazed. The words sounded true--he knew they were true--but where had they come from?

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Quote:

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TITLE: Shadow Rising

CHAPTER: 10 - The Stone Stands

 

Now. The thought floated like cackling laughter on the rim of his awareness. He severed the flows rushing out of him, leaving the thing still whirling, whining like a drill on bone. Now.

 

And the lightnings came, flashing out along the ceiling left and right like silver streams. A Myrddraal stepped out of a side corridor, and before it could take a second step half a dozen flaring streaks stabbed down, blasting it apart. The other streams flowed on, fanning down every branching of the corridor, replaced by more and more erupting every second.

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But this is not what I am asking entirely. If these are examples of what will eventually be Lews Therin, is Lews Therin really there or is he not at these points? If you think Lews Therin is real, the point where he first appears must be where he’s in Rand’s head. But then how does one explain these prior incidents, if Lews Therin was not “there” until later? Again, there is no parceling of this. Either Lews Therin is all “there” and real, or only parts of him are. If only parts of him are, how is it that it’s the real Lews Therin? So, does he appear in these incidents of The Shadow Rising? Or is it in The Fires of Heaven when he first speaks? Or is it at a later time even still? Or is he never all “there” at all?

 

My fourth question is linked to the above one. If you believe Lews Therin is real, he has to all be there. All his memories, all his habits, all his emotions, all his thoughts, etc. If this is true, how is it that Rand is still receiving memories? All of it should be in his head -- because the real Lews Therin is in his head in completion. This is how, for example, people point out that Lews Therin can draw upon all his experiences in channeling, and to do things like know something is off with saidin in The Path of Daggers. But if he has all his experiences to draw off of, what is left for Rand to still receive from after The Path of Daggers? As well, if Rand has everything, doesn’t that at least imply that Rand’s barrier is completely gone, not just degraded?

 

My fifth question is linked yet again to those above, and is the driving point of asking the ones above really. If Lews Therin is real, how come he appears “slowly,” gradually, more and more, in Rand’s head?

 

 

Quote:

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TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 1 - Lion on the Hill

 

Aiel did not care about "the Dragon Reborn"; to them Rand was the Car'a'carn, prophesied to unite them, and to break them. They took it in stride, though they worried about it too, and they seemed to take his channeling in stride as well, and everything that might go with it. The others--The wetlanders, he thought dryly--called him the Dragon Reborn, and never speculated on what that meant. They believed he was the rebirth of Lews Therin Telamon, the Dragon, the man who had sealed the hole into the Dark One's prison and ended the War of the Shadow three thousand years ago and more. Ended the Age of Legends as well, when the Dark One's last counterstroke tainted saidin, and every man who could channel began to go insane, starting with Lews Therin himself and his Hundred Companions. They called Rand the Dragon Reborn, and never suspected that some part of Lews Therin Telamon might be inside his head, as mad as the day he had begun the Time of Madness and the Breaking of the World, as mad as any of those male Aes Sedai who had changed the face of the world beyond recognition. It had come on him slowly, but the more Rand learned of the One Power, the stronger he became with saidin, the stronger Lews Therin's voice became, and the harder Rand had to fight to keep a dead man's thoughts from taking him over. That was one reason why he liked sword practice; the absence of thought was a barrier to keep him himself.

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If Lews Therin is real, how come we keep seeing more and more “firsts” from Lews Therin as time goes on? The Lews Therin from The Fires of Heaven (let alone The Shadow Rising) is quite different from Lews Therin at the end of Knife of Dreams. Why would this be if Lews Therin is real, and all of his experiences are in Rand? Why would it not be an instant appearance, much like Alanna’s Warder bond of Rand is:

 

 

Quote:

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TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 10 - A Saying in the Borderlands

 

Alanna nodded in satisfaction. And suddenly the warmth was heat, one great flash of it, as if he stood for a heartbeat in the middle of a roaring furnace. Even after it passed, he felt odd, aware of himself as he never had been before, aware of Alanna. He swayed, head light, muscles watery. An echo of confusion and unease rang from Lews Therin.

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TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 11 - Lessons and Teachers

 

Rand raced back to the Palace at a gallop, slowly outdistancing even the running Aiel, ignoring their shouts as he ignored the shaken fists of people forced to leap out of Jeade'en's way, and the jumble of overturned sedan chairs and coaches locked wheel-to-wheel with market carts in his wake. Bashere and the Saldaeans barely kept up on their smaller horses. He was not sure why he was in such a hurry--the news he carried was not that urgent--but as the shakiness faded from his arms and legs, he realized more and more that he was aware of Alanna still. He could feel her. It was as if she had crawled inside his head and taken up residence. If he could feel her, could she feel him the same way? What else could she do? What else? He had to get away from her.

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Alanna’s appearance is instantaneous and in full. Why would Lews Therin, if he is real, be a gradual appearance? Once again, there should be no parceling of this, if Lews Therin is real. Either he’s there in full, or he’s not there. The Lews Therin we see in The Fires of Heaven (or The Shadow Rising) should be the exact same as the one we see in Knife of Dreams. But instead, it is a gradual appearance, with constantly new developments. Why is that, if Lews Therin is real and has been since his appearance?

 

One would think that knowing the answers to these questions is part of the reason to believe Lews Therin is real. Yet, again, most people just seem to glide past them. “He’s real, so nothing else matters.” Or, worse, taking answers that are wholly unsatisfying, if not just down right incorrect and pure contradictions, as the answers.

 

Rand’s Suppression of Emotions:

 

To truly begin, we should start at the earliest thing: stress. If no one has picked up that being the Dragon Reborn is a very stressful job, I don’t see how I can show it to you. The biggest example I can point to as a starting point would be when Rand is told that he is the Dragon Reborn by Siuan and Moiraine (and Verin). Obviously a very hard thing to understand, comprehend, and rationalize for dear Rand. What’s very interesting is just before this announcement, Siuan tells him that he can channel (something he already knows) and he denies this at first and tries to explain it away. And what does Rand immediately do when he is told to be the Dragon Reborn? He denies it; three times in fact, as well as denying most of Moiraine’s story of Tam as well.

 

Rand seems to be an epitome of deny and fight regarding many aspects of his life (events in it and other things). His emotions are no different. Going back to the stress element, once Rand began to accept and eventually did accept that he was the Dragon Reborn, he did a very foolish thing: he made it out to be something far greater than it is.

 

 

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TITLE: The Shadow Rising

CHAPTER: 2 – Whirlpools in the Pattern

 

Limping to the foot of the bed, he lowered himself into the chest there and laid Callandor across his knees, bloody hands resting on the glowing blade. With that in his hands, even one of the Forsaken would fear him. In a moment he would send for Moiraine to Heal his wounds. In a moment he would speak to the Aiel outside, and become the Dragon Reborn again. But for now, he only wanted to sit, and remember a shepherd named Rand al'Thor.

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Rand began to see his role and himself as essentially two different things. Rand the nice and kind shepherd from the Two Rivers; the Dragon Reborn the hard/strong (at least in Rand’s mind) being that does what must be done. So, from this point, as well as before, Rand had begun to suppress many of his emotions. He couldn’t allow things he saw as weaknesses, like fear and sadness and other emotions, to make him weak when he had to be hard.

 

 

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TITLE: Winter’s Heart

CHAPTER: 32 – A Portion of Wisdom

 

That is not the reason! Lews Therin shouted, forcing past Rand’s efforts to shut him up. You are afraid! If the sickness takes you while you are trying to use the access ter’angreal, it could kill you, or worse! It could kill us all! he moaned.

 

Wine slopped over Rand’s wrist, soaking his coatsleeve, and he loosened his grip on the winecup. The thing had not been in true round to begin with, and he did not think he had bent it enough to be noticed. He was not afraid! He refused to let fear touch him. Light, he had to die, eventually. He had accepted that.

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This later becomes obvious, especially in light of a specific thing that really focuses this: Rand’s litany. He refers to this constantly (and most clearly in Winter’s Heart after Far Madding) as a tool to forge his soul, to make himself steel. But Rand’s suppression of emotions is not a strange thing all of itself. Many people at times have suppressed things, and stilled their faces and such. What’s strange with Rand is the degree of which this goes to, and how this affects Lews Therin. We already know the degree -- again especially after Far Madding, it becomes even apparent with the great changes in what Min feels in the bond. But how this affects Lews Therin is quite interesting:

 

 

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TITLE: Winter's Heart

CHAPTER: 25 – Bonds

 

In his room at The Counsel's Head, Rand sat on the bed with his legs folded and his back against the wall, playing the silver-mounted flute Thom Merrilin had given him so long ago. An Age ago. This room, with carved wall panels and windows overlooking the Nethvin Market, was better than that they had abandoned at The Crown of Maredo. The pillows stacked beside him were goose down, the bed had an embroidered canopy and curtains, and the mirror above the washstand had not a single bubble. The lintel above the stone fireplace even had a bit of simple carving. It was a room for a well-to-do foreign merchant. He was glad he had thought to bring enough gold when he left Cairhien. He had lost the habit of carrying much. Everything had been provided for the Dragon Reborn. Still, he could have earned a bed of some sort with the flute. The tune was called "Lament for the Long Night," and he had never heard it before in his life. Lews Therin had, though. It was like the skill at drawing. Rand thought that should frighten him, or make him angry, but he simply sat and played while Lews Therin wept.

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So, what do we almost constantly see from Lews Therin, and in this example especially? Lews Therin almost constantly is raving in anger, laughing manically, mourning in sadness over Ilyena, and even fear of certain people. Lews Therin just so happens to express on nearly every occasion he stirs the emotion(s) that Rand is suppressing and has been suppressing. Just why would a real, separate, and independent personality just seem to be an expression of Rand’s own emotions? Why would Lews Therin seem to be the output for Rand’s emotions? The very fact that there is even a tenuous series of instances where this occurs should bring immediate doubt to the notion that there is no link between the two. And, as we shall see, this link is anything but tenuous.

 

Rand’s Suppression of Memories:

 

It is a common practice with Rand that along with his emotions he suppresses memories. It’s fairly obvious to see that Rand’s memories cause such emotions inside Rand. Hence this is why I denounce the idea that Lews Therin’s emotions are another part that must be coming through to Rand. They’re unneeded. We know the memories themselves can contain the same emotional punch. Just think of your own life examples for a moment. You can remember the very painful things of your life, and still draw up the same sadness, anger, frustration, fear, etc. that those moments contained, through nothing other than memory of them. Needing Lews Therin’s “emotional part” to come through the barrier is ludicrous anyway; emotions are ephemeral feelings. You feel them now. They may continue to generate the same feelings over time, but that is just remembering the emotional incident. In case people think I’m just making this up, look at what happens to Rand:

 

 

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TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 16 - Tellings of the Wheel

 

"Take this message back to Sammael," he said coldly. "Every death he has caused since waking, I lay at his feet and call due. Every murder he has ever done or caused, I lay at his feet and call due. He escaped justice in the Rorn M'doi, and at Nol Caimaine, and Sohadra...." More of Lews Therin's memories, but the pain of what had been done there, the agony of what Lews Therin's eyes had seen, burned across the Void as if Rand's. "... But I will see justice done now. Tell him, no truce with the Forsaken. No truce with the Shadow."

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Lews Therin’s memories causing Rand to feel emotions. That is all that is needed, the memories themselves. It is important to point out yet again that memories are just data. A common thing told directly to me is, “Memories have no voice.” This is very true. The memories are just data; however, that data can be used in different ways. I am not saying that the memories themselves are what Lews Therin is. No, not at all.

 

The Lews Therin in Rand’s head is more than memories. He “speaks,” he “dreams,” he can “channel,” he can “see,” and he can “hear.” All those are more than memories. However, that does not mean that Rand has received more than memories. Rand received this data, these genuine memories, and how he uses them is what Lews Therin truly is. From these genuine memories, Rand (through many factors I believe) has constructed this alternate personality. It is at its root a construct; it’s a fictional personality, one that was made. It is based, however, off of these genuine pieces of data: Lews Therin’s memories.

 

Nothing else has come across into Rand. What else is there to come over? What else will be stored as the summation of a life? Birgitte doesn’t say she converses with all her past lives; she says that she remembers her past lives. Birgitte doesn’t worry about losing her hobbies or her emotions -- she worries over losing her memories.

 

If you want to talk about a perfect example of the power of memories, just look at Mat. Mat became hyper suspicious and mistrusting due to the Shadar Logoth dagger. He became a radically different Mat. When the dagger’s influence was removed, what was removed along with it? The memories. Why this occurred is irrelevant; key thing is that it did. Mat essentially “reverted” back to the old Mat; though, yes, Mat was not the same Mat. Even more to the point he was seeking what was so important to him: the holes in his memory to be filled -- the Eelfinn took care of that. But look at what the importance of those memories did to Mat in just one example way:

 

 

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TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 20 - Jangai Pass

 

"Couladin has abandoned ji'e'toh." Dhearic sounded as though he were saying stones had grown wings. Mat guided Pips closer, using his knees. He had never been more than an indifferent rider, but sometimes, when he was thinking of something else, he rode as though born on a horse's back. "That surprises you?" he said. "After everything he has done already? The man would cheat at dice with his mother."

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In the above, after receiving the memories from the Eelfinn, Mat now has an increased talent for riding -- just like how Rand before, no matter how terrible it was, had a talent for drawing. Maybe he could only make stick figures like me; but he could move a pen around on paper. Put it this way: Rand could write, he could draw. The memories from Lews Therin only made vast improvements, just like Mat’s memories made improvements to his riding.

 

And this isn’t he only thing improved. Mat has his knowledge of battle, his improved ability with horse riding, his full and complete understanding of the Old Tongue, his knowledge from many different topics through out many years (from Sea Folk knowledge, to knowledge of countries that existed during a large swath of history), and people could probably tag a few more things on there as well. The same way Rand now has knowledge of the Forsaken, their faces, the way they work, what they did; which is an improvement over what he already knew of them before (both in seeing and dealing with quite a few before we know for sure he got the memories, and his own naïve knowledge that anyone in Randland knows). The same way Rand has increased knowledge of One Power weaves at his disposal:

 

 

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TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 43 - This Place, This Day

 

A memory slid across the emptiness. Not his; Lews Therin’s. For once he did not care. In an instant he channeled, and a ball of fire enveloped the top of a hill nearly five miles away, a churning mass of pale yellow flame. When it faded, he could see without the looking glass that the hill was lower now, and black at the crest, seemingly melted. Between the three of them, there might be no need for the clans to fight Couladin at all.

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(Note: People know countless other classic examples, like the lightning-seeking weave that Rand used in the Stone of Tear being identical to the one Lews Therin used to kill his family; the dome weave used in the Lanfear fight; Rand’s supershield in The Path of Daggers; knowledge of Skimming; knowledge of Traveling; etc.)

 

The same way he has more knowledge of the Old Tongue:

 

 

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TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 46 - Other Battles, Other Weapons

 

Rand opened his mouth to ask the meaning--he knew a scant few words of the Old Tongue, no more--when interpretation floated to the surface in his mind. Siswai'aman. Literally, the spear of the Dragon.

 

“Sometimes,” Asmodean chuckled, “it is difficult to see the difference between oneself and one’s enemies. They want to own the world, but it seems you already own a people.”

 

Turning his head, Rand stared at him until amusement faded and, shrugging uncomfortably, he let his mule fall back beside Pevin and the banner. The trouble was that the name did imply--more than implied--ownership; that was out of Lews Therin’s memories, too. It did not seem possible to own people, but if it was, he did not want to. All I want is to use them, he thought wryly.

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(Note: Rand does not have complete knowledge of the Old Tongue -- just what does that say about having all of Lews Therin’s memories, I wonder?).

 

The same way with his drawing. The same way that Rand himself has shown more knowledge of battle:

 

 

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TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 41 - The Craft of Kin Tovere

 

Raising his head, Rand found Rhuarc just stepping away from the other looking glass, giving up his place to Han. That was the whole reason for the tower and the glasses. Scouts brought back what word they could of how the Shaido were deployed, but this way the chiefs could see for themselves the terrain on which the battle would be fought. They had worked out a plan between them already, but one more look at the land could never go amiss. Rand did not know much about battles, but Lan thought their plan a good one. At least, Rand did not know much in his own mind; sometimes those other memories crept in, and then he seemed to know more than he wanted.

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TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 42 - Before the Arrow

 

The battle would begin tomorrow. It was a polite fiction that he helped Rhuarc and the others plan. He was smart enough to know what he did not know, and despite all of his talks with Lan and Rhuarc, he knew he was not ready. I’ve planned a hundred battles this size or more and given orders that led to ten times as many. Not his thought. Lews Therin knew war--had known war--but not Rand al’Thor, and that was him. He listened, asked questions--and nodded as if he understood when the chiefs said a thing should be done a certain way. Sometimes he did understand and wished he did not, because he knew where that understanding came from. His only real contribution had been to say that Couladin had to be defeated without destroying the city. In any, case, this meeting would only add a few touches at most to what had already been decided. Mat would have been useful, with his new-found knowledge.

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It’s ridiculous from what we know to believe that more is needed to explain what Rand is doing. All Rand needs is the knowledge of what to do -- from the memories -- and how he uses it is what becomes of Lews Therin. There’s no need for an entire personality to enter into Rand’s mind. There’s no need to try to explain through whatever feeble means of how that personality got “activated.” There’s no need to propose that more than memories are entering into Rand’s head. This is especially important since there is no indication that any of these “other” proposed necessary components are entering into Rand. All that is needed is one statement: Genuine memories from Rand’s past life (the life of Lews Therin) are entering into Rand’s head, due to the degraded state of the barrier between his past and present lives.

 

That is all. How Rand uses this data becomes the next big question.

 

So, how does he? In a very interesting way: almost completely, Rand suppresses this data; he suppresses the memories.

 

 

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TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 54 - To Caemlyn

 

Blue eyes floated accusingly outside the Void, the darting memory of kisses stolen in Tear, the memory of a letter laying her heart and soul at his feet, of messages borne by Egwene professing love. What would she say if she ever learned about Aviendha, about that night together in the snow hut? Memory of another letter, icily spurning him, a queen condemning a swineherd to outer darkness. It did not matter. Lan was right. But he wanted…. What? Who? Blue eyes, and green, and dark brown. Elayne, who maybe loved him and maybe could not make up her mind? Aviendha, who taunted him with what she would not let him touch? Min, who laughed at him, thought him a wool-headed fool? All that flashed along the boundaries of the Void. He tried to ignore it, to ignore anguished memories of another blue-eyed woman, lying dead in a palace corridor, so long ago.

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As well, look just above to the quote about Rand having memories about war. He wishes he did not understand, because he knows where they are coming from. Rand cannot deal with these memories.

 

It is very important to note that just because Rand is suppressing this knowledge does not mean that the knowledge is gone. It’s not like Rand can pitch the memories over the side of a boat and be done with them. It’s not like Rand can just delete these memories. Look at Rand’s suppression of his own memories. Does Rand have no knowledge of what occurred in those instances? Of course not! The knowledge is still there because the memories are not gone. Mat didn’t suppress his memories of what happened when he was under the Shadar Logoth influence -- they were removed.

 

This is one of the key reasons why I object to how people explain that Lews Therin is real, is always there, and can utilize all his experiences. By that logic, Rand has had all of Lews Therin’s memories and knowledge enter into his head. People will then say that Rand cannot utilize Lews Therin’s knowledge all the time. This is pure nonsense. These memories are entering into Rand’s head. They’ll say that they’re behind the barrier between Rand and Lews Therin. This is even further nonsense.

 

The barrier is between Rand and his past life; it is not inside Rand’s head. The barrier isn’t a shield where Rand or Lews Therin can hide behind and dodge “bullets” so to speak. The memories that have entered into Rand’s head, Rand knows. Just like his own memories that are in his head, he knows them. There’s no return to sender. He may suppress them, but this does not mean that he doesn’t know them -- again, just look at Rand’s own knowledge of what happened in his suppressed memories. Suppressing them doesn’t eradicate knowledge of the events all of a sudden. All that the suppression of memories means is that Rand doesn’t want to deal with them right now. He may not want to deal with any of the memories, or the memories he has received from Lews Therin, but he still knows them.

 

So what does this mean for Rand? It means that his suppression of memories is at best a very futile effort. Even Rand acknowledges that he cannot fight the memories:

 

 

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TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 3 - A Woman's Eyes

 

He hesitated, heron-branded palm stroking his long sword hilt. He had no idea what a gholam was. Lews Therin had not stirred, but he knew that was the source of the name. Bits and pieces sometimes drifted across whatever thin barrier lay between him and that voice, and became part of Rand's memories, usually without anything to explain them. It happened more often, lately. The fragments were not something he could fight, like the voice. The hesitation lasted only a moment.

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This suppression just creates a need to express them if Rand will not “accept them” of his own. Lews Therin is an expression of Rand’s needs in this manner.

 

Lews Therin -- Thoughts and Abilities:

 

Specifically, Rand’s thoughts. I only wish to bring up a single question on this topic. How is it that Lews Therin can read Rand’s thoughts?

 

 

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TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 10 – A Saying in the Borderlands

 

Did he love her? He did not know. She was all tangled in his head and his dreams with Elayne, and even Min. What he did know was that he was dangerous; he had nothing to offer any woman except pain.

 

Ilyena, Lews Therin wept. I killed her! The Light consume me forever!

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TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 17 – The Wheel of a Life

 

Suddenly the wine tasted sour. Another place like Tarabon and Arad Doman, torn just by hearing of him. How far did the ripples spread? Were there wars he would never hear of in lands he would never hear of, because of him?

 

Death rides on my shoulder, Lews Therin muttered. Death walks in my footsteps. I am death.

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TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 49 - The Mirror of Mists

 

"And there is nothing to be afraid of," he broke in firmly. The Aes Sedai must really have frightened her for Min to be near crying. Seven, Lews Therin groaned. I cannot handle seven, not at once. Not seven. Rand thought of the fat-little-man angreal, and the voice faded to murmurs; it still sounded uneasy, though. At least Alanna was not one of them; Rand could feel her at some distance, not moving, certainly not toward him. He was not sure he dared come face-to-face with her again. "There's no time to waste, either. Jalani?"

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TITLE: A Crown of Swords

CHAPTER: 18 – As the Plow Breaks the Earth

 

Narishma frowned questioningly at Rand, but Rand only shook his head. The woman was deliberately trying to provoke him. The question was, why provoke a man she must know could still her, or kill her, without exerting himself? Lews Therin muttered the same thing. Why? Why? Stepping onto the dais, Rand took up the Dragon Scepter from the throne and sat, waiting to see what would happen. The woman was not going to succeed.

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TITLE: Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 22 - Gathering Clouds

 

He could remember as a boy hearing men laugh that when rain fell in sunshine the Dark One was beating Semirhage. Some of that laughter had been uneasy, though, and scrawny old Cenn Buie would always snarl that Semirhage would be smarting and angry after that, and come for small boys who did not keep out of their elders' way. That had been enough to send Rand running, when he was little. He wished Semirhage would come for him now, right that instant. He would make her weep.

 

Nothing makes Semirhage weep, Lews Therin muttered. She gives tears to others, but she has none herself.

 

Rand laughed softly. If she came today, he would make her weep. Her and the rest of the Forsaken together, if they came today. Most assuredly he would make the Seanchan weep.

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TITLE: Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 29 - A Cup of Sleep

 

Maidens appeared, a stream of them, veiled, and ran by without seeing him. Toward his apartments. He could not let them accompany him; he had promised, but to let them fight, not to lead them to slaughter. When he found Demandred and Asmodean, all the Maidens could do was die, and he already had five names to learn and add to his list. Somara of the Bent Peak Daryne was already there. A promise he had had to make, a promise he had to keep. For that promise alone, he deserved to die!

 

Eagles and women can only be kept safe in cages, Lews Therin said as though quoting, then abruptly began weeping as the last of the Maidens vanished.

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TITLE: Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 29 - A Cup of Sleep

 

Rand slipped out of the chamber grimacing. He was very good at frightening people who could not harm him. Very good at destroying.

 

To destroy, or be destroyed, Lews Therin laughed. When that’s your choice, is there a difference?

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TITLE: Winter's Heart

CHAPTER: Prologue

 

Rand was not certain he disagreed. Then again, maybe one of the pigs would grow wings. The wagon had moved. He wanted very badly to leave something behind, something to help the world survive the new Breaking the Prophecies said he would bring. The trouble was, he had no idea what that might be, save for the schools themselves. Who knew what a marvel could do? Light, he wanted to build something that could last.

 

I thought I could build, Lews Therin murmured in his head. I was wrong. We are not builders, not you, or I, or the other one. We are destroyers. Destroyers.

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TITLE: Winter's Heart

CHAPTER: 25 – Bonds

 

"You said she was going to help me die," he said quietly. "Those were your words." How would he feel at dying? Sadness at leaving her, at leaving Elayne and Aviendha. Sadness for the pain he had brought them. He would like to see his father again before the end. Aside from those things, he almost thought death would be a relief.

 

Death is a relief, Lews Therin said fervently. I want death. We deserve death!

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TITLE: Knife of Dreams

CHAPTER 20 - The Golden Crane

 

The wind had died away as the rain diminished, but gray clouds still hid the sun. The fine drizzle was enough to dampen Rand's hair, however, and begin soaking into his gold-embroidered black coat as he walked through the dead Trollocs. Logain had spun a shield of Air so that raindrops bounced from it or apparently slid down nothing to cascade around him, but Rand refused to risk Lews Therin seizing saidin again. The man had said he could wait until the Last Battle to die, but how far could you trust a madman on anything?

 

Madman? Lews Therin whispered. Am I any madder than you? He cackled with wild laughter.

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TITLE: Knife of Dreams

CHAPTER 21 - Within the Stone

 

"A steamwagon, Doni," his equally ragged companion put in. "A steamwagon." Neither of them could have been more than ten, and they were gaunt rather than skinny. Their muddy feet, torn shirts and holed breeches meant they came from outside the walls, where the poorest folk lived. Rand had changed a number of laws in Tear, especially those that weighed heavily on the poor, but he had been unable to change everything. He had not even known how to begin. Lews Therin began to maunder on about taxes and money creating jobs, but he might as well have been spilling out words at random for all the sense he made. Rand muted the voice to a buzz, a fly on the other side of a room.

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TITLE: Knife of Dreams

CHAPTER 21 - Within the Stone

 

Rand nodded. At least the man was not ignoring the situation in the city. "There are two boys who live outside the walls. Doni and Com. I don't know any more name than that. About age ten. Once the rebels are settled and you can leave the Stone, I would appreciate it if you found them and kept an eye on them." Min made a sound in her throat, and the bond carried sadness so bleak it almost overwhelmed the burst of love that came with it. So. It must have been death she saw. But she had been wrong about Moiraine. Maybe this viewing could be changed by a ta'veren.

 

No, Lews Therin growled. Her viewings must not change. We have to die! Rand ignored him.

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We see this countless times from Lews Therin, throughout the books. We have a paragraph that is obviously Rand’s thoughts, and they are not like Rand is speaking them in his head -- we see those; they’re italicized -- and then we have Lews Therin speaking almost always on the same topic, if not exact same wording. In fact, one begins to see that they are hard pressed to find instances where this doesn’t occur, rather then when it does.

 

So, again, how is it that Lews Therin has this curious ability to read Rand’s thoughts? We’ve only seen this one other place: with zomaran.

 

 

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TITLE: Knife of Dreams

CHAPTER: 3 – At the Gardens

 

Taking the goblet, she waved the zomara away, though it was already turning before she gestured. She hated the creatures’ ability to know what was in her head. At least it could not communicate what it learned to anyone. Memories of anything but commands faded in minutes. Even Aginor possessed sense enough to see the need for that. Would he appear today? Osan’gar had missed every meeting since the failure at Shadar Logoth. The true question was, was he amount the dead or was he moving in secret, perhaps at the Great Lord’s direction? Either way, his absences presented delicious opportunities, but the latter presented as many dangers. Dangers had been much on her mind lately.

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And obviously Lews Therin is not a zomaran. Whatever he is, he is not Shadowspawn. So how is it that Lews Therin can do this? Well, when I said we’ve seen this before only one other place, I was misleading you. We’ve actually seen this in countless places. In fact, we’ve seen this in just about every single point of view that we’ve come across. For instance, in Faile:

 

 

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TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message

 

The pair flinched. Daise Congar, the Wisdom here in Emond's Field, would not tolerate this sort of nonsense. In fact, she would go well beyond not tolerating it. But they curtsied, muttering "Yes, my Lady" in forlorn unison. If not already, they soon would sorely regret wasting Daise's time.

 

And mine, Faile thought firmly. Everyone knew Perrin rarely sat in audience, or they would never have brought their fool "problem." Had he been here where he belonged, they would have slipped away rather than air it in front of him. Faile hoped the heat had Daise in a prickle. Too bad there was no way to get Daise to take Perrin in hand.

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Egwene:

 

 

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TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 15 – A Pile of Sand

 

Safely away from the dangerous topic, Egwene relaxed. She had received more answer than she could have hoped for. She already knew she loved Gawyn--Did you, then? A voice whispered. Were you willing to admit it?--and his dreams certainly indicated he loved her. Though of course, if men could say things waking they did not mean, they very probably could dream them. But to have the Wise Ones confirm it, that he loved her strongly enough to overwhelm anything she….

 

No. That would be dealt with later. She did not even have an idea where in the world he was. The important thing now was that she knew the danger. She would be able to recognize Gawyn’s dreams the next time, and avoid them. If you really want to, that small voice whispered. She hoped the Wise Ones took the color rising in her cheeks for a healthy glow. She wished she knew what her own dreams meant, if they meant anything.

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Nynaeve:

 

 

Quote:

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TITLE: The Eye of the World

CHAPTER: 21 – Listen to the Wind

 

Moiraine tossed a handful of something into the boiling water and moved the kettle from the fire. “One should always hope they had gone back into Shadar Logoth and been consumed by it, but that would be too much to hope for.”

 

The delicious order of tea drifted to Nynaeve. Light, don’t let my stomach grumble.

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Quote:

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TITLE: The Eye of the World

CHAPTER: 21 – Listen to the Wind

 

Moiraine’s calm never slipped while she laid out the horrible alternatives; Nynaeve wanted to scream at her. Blinking back tears, she turned her face so the Aes Sedai could not see. Light, a Wisdom is supposed to look after all of her people. Why do I have to choose like this?

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Perrin:

 

 

Quote:

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TITLE: The Eye of the World

CHAPTER: 22 – A Path Chosen

 

He let her push him to a place by the fire and rubbed his hands over the flames, grateful for the warmth. She produced an oiled paper packet from her saddlebags and gave him some bread and cheese. The package had been so tightly wrapped that even after its dunking the food was dry. Here you were worrying about her, and she’s done better than you did.

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Quote:

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TITLE: The Eye of the World

CHAPTER: 22 – A Path Chosen

 

Perrin nodded slowly. “If you say so, but if she doesn’t appear in Caemlyn in a few days, we go on to Tar Valon and put our case before the Amyrlin Seat.” He took a deep breath. Two weeks ago you’d never even seen an Aes Sedai, and now you’re talking about the Amyrlin Seat. Light! “According to Lan, there’s a good road from Caemlyn.” He looked at the oiled paper packet beside Egwene and cleared his throat. “What chance of a little more bread and cheese?”

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Rand, before Lews Therin (unless people wish to argue these are him as well?):

 

 

Quote:

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TITLE: Eye of the World

CHAPTER: 24 - Flight Down the Arinelle

 

The river rolled on without any sign of life, nor any boat to be seen except the Spray. But that was not to say there was nothing to see, and wonder at. In the middle of the first day, the Arinelle ran between high bluffs that stretched for half a mile on either side. For that whole length the stone had been cut into figures, men and women a hundred feet tall, with crowns proclaiming them kings and queens. No two were alike in that royal procession, and long years separated the first from the last. Wind and rain had worn those at the north end smooth and almost featureless, with faces and details becoming more distinct as they went south. The river lapped around the statues' feet, feet washed to smooth nubs, those that were not gone completely. How long have they stood there, Rand wondered. How long for the river to wear away so much stone? None of the crew so much as looked up from their work, they had seen the ancient carvings so many times before.

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Heck, this one is even in the very first chapter with Rand:

 

 

Quote:

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TITLE: Eye of the World

CHAPTER: 1 - An Empty Road

 

The medallion, along with the full-size set of scales used to weigh the coins of the merchants who came down from Baerlon for wool or tabac, was the symbol of the Mayor's office. Bran only wore it for dealing with the merchants and for festivals, feastdays, and weddings. He had it on a day early now, but that night was Winternight, the night before Bel Tine, when everyone would visit back and forth almost the whole night long, exchanging small gifts, having a bite to eat and a touch to drink at every house. After the winter, Rand thought, he probably considers Winternight excuse enough not to wait until tomorrow.

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So, we’ve seen these countless times, hundreds of times, in many different characters. But where are people remarking that these other characters have a real personality of their past lives in their heads? Egwene even has the distinction of “small voice” in the example I gave -- where is the clamor for Egwene to be as mad as Rand? The obvious answer is because they don’t; because what is happening here is not the mark of another personality.

 

 

[Davian93]

It is the mark of a conscience (note the big difference between conscious, please). These are people’s internal monologues with themselves, it is their conscience speaking out commenting on things only they talk about in their head, or simply statements of the continuing thought trend. This is nothing extraordinary; in fact, this is so obviously ordinary that it should raise no questions at all.

 

But instead it raises a very large one. If Lews Therin is the real deal, he should not be Rand’s conscience. He should not be able to know Rand’s thoughts at all. They’d be completely separate. For instance, look at how Rand cannot do this to Lews Therin. If anyone believes Lews Therin is real, they believe he’s always there (when he’s there at least -- as little sense that makes), and is independent and always going on about things on his own. He’d always be lamenting Ilyena, raving about killing, or just plain babbling all the time insanely.

 

But Rand does not know Lews Therin’s thoughts unless he speaks them, or instances where Rand can “feel” what Lews Therin is doing (like for instance when Rand can feel Lews Therin practically rubbing his hands in anticipation). But make no mistake that this is anywhere near the same thing. Lews Therin routinely speaks about the specific topic of Rand’s unvoiced thoughts. In one of the examples I gave, Rand simply thinking about an angreal calms Lews Therin’s worry about the seven Aes Sedai coming to see Rand. Again, it’s as if Lews Therin is able to read Rand’s thoughts, but Rand cannot do this to Lews Therin’s thoughts.

 

The only possible way I could see this being explained if Lews Therin was real, would be if because they’re in the same head, Lews Therin can read Rand’s thoughts. This is more or less the same explanation for why Lews Therin apparently now has “dreams” and Rand dreams them. But the thing is if they are in the same head, they should gain the same ability. For instance, along with the dreams, people who believe Lews Therin is real love to point out that Rand’s memories enter into Lews Therin. This is true; however, it only undermines reasons to explain why Lews Therin can read Rand’s mind, but Rand cannot do the same to Lews Therin.

 

My explanation is exceedingly simple: Lews Therin doesn’t need any special ability of reading Rand’s thoughts, because Lews Therin does function as Rand’s conscience. But this is because Lews Therin himself is a construct.

 

One of the key things that people use to believe that Lews Therin is the real Lews Therin’s personality, is that his thoughts are so obviously separate and distinct from Rand’s. But this is an illusion. Just look at the examples I gave again; Rand’s thoughts lead directly to Lews Therin’s. That’s not independent and separate; that’s a direct link! And it’s not that this is some new ability of Lews Therin’s that is recent either. As I said, this goes across the books. So much so that it makes an appearance in the very first time that Lews Therin speaks:

 

 

Quote:

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TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 2 - Rhuidean

 

He gaped at her as the tirade went on, with her more furious than at any time since first coming through the bead curtain. Then it hit him. That little near shake of her head that she had not meant to give, letting him know it had been Moiraine who struck him with the Power. Egwene worked very hard at doing what she was about in proper fashion. Studying with the Wise Ones, she wore Aiel clothes; she might even be trying to adopt Aiel customs, for all he knew. It would be like her. But she worked hard at being a proper Aes Sedai all the time, even if she was only one of the Accepted. Aes Sedai usually kept a rein on their tempers, but they never ever gave anything away that they wanted to hide.

 

Ilyena never flashed her temper at me when she was angry with herself. When she gave me the rough side of her tongue, it was because she. . . His mind froze for an instant. He had never met a woman named Ilyena in his life. But he could summon up a face for the name, dimly; a pretty face, skin like cream, golden hair exactly the shade of Elayne's. This had to be the madness. Remembering an imaginary woman. Perhaps one day he would find himself having conversations with people who were not there.

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From first confirmed voiced thoughts in Rand’s head to Knife of Dreams, we see this relation all the time. I can easily give twice as many other examples as I have here -- only reason I don’t is again due to the length that it would make this theory. The two things to take away from this are:

 

1. If Lews Therin is real, how can he read Rand’s thoughts, but Rand cannot read his?

 

2. If Lews Therin is real, how come he is not independent in thought as everyone makes him out to be? How come there is a direct relationship between Rand’s thoughts, and Lews Therin’s remarks?

 

Keep these in mind as we continue.

 

The other point I wish to bring up is: how can Lews Therin do some of the things he does? I’ve just shown the curious ability of reading Rand’s mind Lews Therin seems to have. Another very vital thing Lews Therin does deals with Rand’s litany. We all know Rand keeps a list of the women he feels have died for him, but even this can be more appropriately applied to just women who have died that he knows about. This list more or less begins in The Fires of Heaven, but doesn’t truly become the force it does until Moiraine’s “death.” After that is when it gets out of control. But here’s the very strange thing:

 

 

Quote:

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TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 26 - Connecting Lines

 

Lifting the veil, he memorized Desora's face. She looked as if she were sleeping now. Desora, of the Musara sept of the Reyn Aiel. So many names. Liah, of the Cosaida Chareen, and-Dailin, of the Nine Valleys Taardad, and Lamelle, of the Smoke Water Miagoma, and.... So many. Sometimes he ran down that list name by name. There was one name in it he had not added. Ilyena Therin Moerelle. He did not know how Lews Therin had put it there, but he would not have erased it if he knew how.

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Now just think about this for a moment. This is Rand’s list, this is all in Rand’s head, that he uses to make himself harder. How does Lews Therin add a name to the list, without Rand truly doing it? It’s very similar to how Lews Therin can read Rand’s mind. How can he do this, if there is not a direct link between them? And it gets worse.

 

 

Quote:

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TITLE: Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 23 - Fog of War, Storm of Battle

 

Rand sighed. Not a pet dog. No! That name did not belong on the list! But he could hear the litany of names reciting itself in his head, and "Gille the damane" was there. Lews Therin moaned for his Ilyena. Her name also was on the list. Rand thought it had a right.

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Now Rand is feeling justified for having Ilyena there. And still worse.

 

 

Quote:

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TITLE: Knife of Dreams

CHAPTER 18 - News for the Dragon

 

As for himself, he could not look at any of them without the litany of women who had died for him, women he had killed, starting up in his head. Moiraine Damodred. Her above all. Her name was written inside his skull in fire. Liah of the Cosaida Chareen, Sendara of the Iron Mountain Taardad. Lamelle of the Smoke Water Miagoma, Andhilin of the Red Salt Goshien, Desora of the Musara Reyn.... So many names. Sometimes he woke in the middle of the night muttering that list, with Min holding him and murmuring to him as if soothing a child. He always told her he was all right and wanted to go back to sleep, yet after he closed his eyes, he did not sleep until the list had been completed. Sometimes Lews Therin chanted it with him.

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Now this is just plain absurd. Lews Therin can add to the list, and knows of it, and chants it with Rand, and there is no link? It’s just something Lews Therin felt like doing I suppose… Except that even Lews Therin says that he needs no reminders, in a very strange passage:

 

 

Quote:

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TITLE: Knife of Dreams

CHAPTER 20 - The Golden Crane

 

Rand shook his head in disgust. These flies were all too alive. Not every Saldaean defending this barn had died, but all of the Saldaean dead had been gathered here. Saldaeans disliked burials in rain. None of them could say why, but you just did not bury people while it was raining. Nineteen men lay in a neat row on the floor, as neat as it could be when some were missing limbs or had their heads split open. But they had been laid out carefully by their friends and companions, their faces washed, their eyes closed. They were why he had come there. Not to say goodbye or anything sentimental; he had not known any of these men more than to recognize a face here and there. He had come to remind himself that even what seemed a complete victory had its cost in blood. Still, they deserved better than to be crawling with flies.

 

I need no reminders, Lews Therin growled.

 

I'm not you, Rand thought. I have to harden myself. "Logain, get rid of these bloody things!" he said aloud.

 

You're harder than I ever was, Lews Therin said. Suddenly he giggled. If you're not me, then who are you?

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So, Lews Therin needs no reminders because he’s not as hard as Rand, but sometimes he chants Rand’s list, which is used to remind Rand and make himself harder. Of course, that makes all the sense in the world, even ignoring how Lews Therin can add to a mental list of Rand’s, and truly know of it. The even stranger comment is Lews Therin effectively saying that what is Rand if both of them are not the same. Since everyone seems to agree that Rand is Rand, just where does that leave Lews Therin?

 

But yet another strange thing with Lews Therin has come about throughout the books: Lews Therin has never said Rand’s name. Lews Therin has said his own name:

 

 

Quote:

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TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 28 - Letters

 

Who are you? Where am I?

 

Rand felt as though a fist had clutched his throat. He had been sure, but.... This was the first time Lews Therin had said anything to him, something clearly and plainly addressed to him. I am Rand al'Thor. You are inside my head.

 

Inside ... ? No! I am myself! I am Lews Therin Telamon! I am meeeeeeeeee! The cry faded away into the distance.

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More importantly Rand has said that he is Rand al’Thor. As well, Rand has called Lews Therin “Lews Therin” on many instances, both personifying the eventual voice, and in conversation. Yet not once has Lews Therin called Rand “Rand” or “Rand al’Thor.” This should be simply laughable. Rand has told him his name after all, and if that isn’t enough, Lews Therin apparently is getting Rand’s life memories as well, so he should know Rand’s name perfectly well. But what does he call Rand? Most commonly “you,” or “we” or “us” when referring to each of them (uniquely strange incidents as well). Lately, however, Lews Therin has taken to calling Rand a different personification: “madman.”

 

 

Quote:

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TITLE: Knife of Dreams

CHAPTER 20 - The Golden Crane

 

"That might take time," Loial said doubtfully. "You know we don't like to make hasty decisions. I'm not certain they will even let a human into the stedding, because of the Stump. Rand? If I can't come back before the Last Battle. . . . You will answer my questions about what happened while I was in the stedding, won't you? I mean, without making me drag everything out of you?"

 

"If I can, I will," Rand told him.

 

If you can, Lews Therin snarled. You agreed we could finally die at Tarmon Gai'don. You agreed, madman!

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Quote:

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TITLE: Knife of Dreams

CHAPTER 21 - Within the Stone

 

You have to trust me, Lews Therin snarled. If we're going to make it to Tarmon Gai'don so we can die, you have to trust me.

 

You told me once not to trust anyone, Rand thought. Including you.

 

Only madmen trust no one, Lews Therin whispered. Abruptly he began to weep. Oh, why do I have a madman in my head? Rand pushed the voice away.

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But the very interesting thing is what is Rand calling Lews Therin more and more? What else? Madman.

 

 

Quote:

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TITLE: Knife of Dreams

CHAPTER 20 - The Golden Crane

 

The most dire words a woman can say short of "I'm going to kill you," Rand thought. Suddenly he felt a chill. Had it been him? Or Lews Therin? The madman chuckled softly in the back of his head. No matter. In three days, one difficulty would be resolved. One way or another. "What else, Bashere?"

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Quote:

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TITLE: Knife of Dreams

CHAPTER: 27 – A Plain Wooden Box

 

A fool. Lews Therin’s wild laughter echoed inside his head. A fool to walk into a trap. Rand ignored the madman. It might be a trap, but he was ready to spring it if it was. It was worth the risk. He needed this truce. He could crush the Seanchan, but at what cost in blood, and in time he might not have? He glanced north again. The sky above Andor was clear except for a few high white clouds, drifting wisps. The Last Battle was coming. He had to take the risk.

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This isn’t just a new thing either for Rand:

 

 

Quote:

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TITLE: Crown of Swords

CHAPTER: 7 - Pitfalls and Tripwires

 

Rand muted the voice to an insect's buzz, something he had learned while cramped into that chest. Alone, in the dark. Just him, and the pain, and the thirst, and the voice of a long-dead madman. The voice had been a comfort sometimes, his only companion. His friend. Something flashed in his mind. Not images, just flickers of color and motion. For some reason they made him think of Mat, and Perrin. The flashes had begun inside the chest, them and a thousand more hallucinations. In the chest, where Galina and Erian and Katerine and the rest stuffed him every day after he was beaten. He shook his head. No. He was not in the chest anymore. His fingers ached, clenched around scepter and hilt. Only memories remained, and memories had no force. He was not?

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But the overall question becomes: if Lews Therin is real, and in Rand’s head, and receiving memories from Rand’s life, and has been told Rand’s name by none other than Rand himself, how come he has not simply called Rand “Rand?” Why constantly refer to Rand as “you” or in the case of “we” or “us” or even later “madman?” If Lews Therin is a construct, I feel the answer is simple: it’s to help Rand maintain his illusion that Lews Therin is really there, and that he is not insane. Rand himself has wanted to talk to Lews Therin to “reassure” himself that he is sane and that that (Lews Therin) is a madman.

 

Another point is how does Lews Therin “dream?” I already alluded to this before, but here is more in-depth on this.

 

 

Quote:

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TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 19 - Matters of Toh

 

Rand thought that he would sleep well that night. He was nearly tired enough to forget Alanna's touch, and more important, Aviendha was out in the tents with the Wise Ones, not undressing for bed with no regard for his presence, not disturbing his rest with the sound of her breathing. Something else made him toss, though. Dreams. He always warded his dreams, to keep the Forsaken out--and the Wise Ones--but warding could not keep out what was already inside. Dreams came of huge white things like giant birdwings without the bird, sailing across the sky; of great cities of impossibly tall buildings, shining in the sun, with shapes like beetles and flattened water-drops speeding along the streets. He had seen all that before, inside the huge ter'angreal in Rhuidean where he had gained the Dragons on his arms, and knew them for images of the Age of Legends, but this time it was all different. Everything seemed twisted, the colors ... wrong, as though something had gone askew in his eyes. The sho-wings faltered and fell, each carrying hundreds to death. Buildings shattered like glass, cities burned, the fend heaved like storm-tossed seas. And time after time he faced a beautiful golden-haired woman, watched love turn to terror on her face. Part of him knew her. Part of him wanted to save her, from the Dark One, from any harm, from what he himself was about to do. So many parts of him, mind splintered in glittering shards, all screaming.

 

He woke in darkness, sweating, shaking. Lews Therin's dreams. That had never happened before, not dreaming the man's dreams. He lay there the hours remaining until sunrise, staring at nothing, afraid to close his eyes. He held on to saidin as if he could use it to fight the dead man, but Lews Therin remained silent.

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So really the question isn’t so much how Lews Therin “dreams” (but that surely is a very interesting question), it’s how does Lews Therin make Rand dream Lews Therin’s “dreams?” As I said before, the best answer I’ve gotten on this is pretty much “Well, they’re in the same head, of course they will dream each other’s dreams.” Maintaining this of course undermines how Rand cannot read Lews Therin’s thoughts yet he can read Rand’s for the same reason. But the basic premise seems to be that Lews Therin is just growing in presence more and more and is taking over Rand more and more.

 

Aside from the fact that this makes Lews Therin’s appearance seem impossible to pinpoint (again, when is he really “there” if he keeps growing in presence? Or is he becoming some kind of “meta-Lews Therin?”), this is also used to explain the final interesting aspect of Lews Therin’s abilities: his traits showing up in Rand, most specifically, the humming and thumbing of earlobes. We all know what happens. Rand/Lews Therin sees a pretty woman -- humming and thumbing of earlobes ensues.

 

 

Quote:

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TITLE: Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 23 - Fog of War, Storm of Battle

 

Rand found himself humming and stopped abruptly. That was Lews Therin's habit, looking at a pretty woman, not his. Not his! Light, if he started taking on the fellow's mannerisms, and when he was not there, at that…!

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Quote:

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TITLE: Winter's Heart

CHAPTER: 11 - Ideas of Importance

 

"Why are you grinning at me and thumbing your ear like a loobie?" she demanded, stuffing the handkerchief back into her sleeve. Suspicion filled her big, dark eyes.

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Not going to quote all the instances, but by all means let’s assume this take over of Rand is true. So, now Lews Therin can control Rand’s dreams, his hands, and his voice. This raises two big problems, however. First, there is no battle of self. We saw that before:

 

 

Quote:

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TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 52 - Choices

 

"No." Rand's voice seemed to come to his ears down a mile-long tunnel. Distract her from the girls. He kept moving forward, did not look back. "I was never yours, Mierin. I will always belong to Ilyena." The Void quivered with sorrow and loss. And with desperation, as he fought something besides the scouring of saidin. For a moment he hung balanced. I am Rand al'Thor. And, Ilyena, ever and always my heart. Balanced on a razor edge. I am Rand al'Thor! Other thoughts tried to well up, a fountain of them, of Ilyena, of Mierin, of what he could do to defeat her. He forced them down, even the last. If he came down on the wrong side….I am Rand al 'Thor! "Your name is Lanfear, and I'll die before I love one of the Forsaken."

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This is a very important quote, because it is the first (and so far only) battle of self that Rand and Lews Therin have. Look at what occurs. Rand is hung balanced between being himself or Lews Therin (what an instance of mirroring, showing their relationship, eh?) Then Rand is being bombarded by memories from Lews Therin, and he forces them all down. Rand is doing everything to completely force down Lews Therin. There is a big conflict here. Yet, in not a single one of the humming or earlobe instances is there reference to a conflict. It just happens. So how is Lews Therin taking over Rand’s body, if there is no battle of self?

 

Second, forget the battle. Say that these are all instances of Lews Therin taking over Rand at that time. How come he couldn’t move Rand’s hands when he took the Power away from Rand in Knife of Dreams? How come Rand could still think and talk as he always could? After all, if this is Lews Therin taking over, why shouldn’t his control over Rand’s parts be constant? Or at the very least when he takes over one area, he can easily have control of it again later (I don’t know, probably just toss in he “chooses” not to control them all the time or whatever). So that because he can control Rand humming and his hands at certain instances, he could control them at other instances easily. So why not when he most needed to if he can for such trivial things as pretty women? Because Lews Therin is not taking over Rand. These are really Rand doing these motions.

 

Lews Therin’s disappearance and return:

 

If people believe that Lews Therin is real, the fact that he disappears for quite some time from A Crown of Swords to The Path of Daggers is quite a problem. Remember my general questions: is Lews Therin there or is he not? Where is Lews Therin to go? It’s not like he can hop on a horse and take to Caemlyn.

 

Along with these, it further raises two other questions. Why did Lews Therin disappear at this time? And, why did Lews Therin return when he did? If Lews Therin is a construct, none of these questions go unanswered. In fact, given their answers, Lews Therin’s return should’ve actually been predicted; as well with this, the same with his appearance, his re-appearance should be shown to be gradual.

 

 

Quote:

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TITLE: A Crown of Swords

CHAPTER: 18 – As the Plow Breaks the Earth

 

The heat inside him erupted in rage. Tray and massive teapot hurtled across the room, smashing a mirror with a thunderous crash and bouncing back in a shower of glass, half-flattened pot spraying tea, tray spinning across the floor bent double. Everyone jumped except Cadsuane. Rand leaped from the dais, clutching the Dragon Scepter so hard his knuckles hurt. “Is that supposed to frighten me?” he growled “Do you expect me to beg, or to be thankful? To weep? Aes Sedai, I could close my hand and crush you.” The hand he held up shook with fury. “Merana knows why I should. The Light only knows why I don’t.”

 

The woman looked at the battered tea things as if she had all the time in the world. "Now you know," she said at last, calm as ever, "that I know your future, and your present. The Light's mercy fades to nothing for a man who can channel. Some see that and believe the Light denies those men. I do not. Have you begun to hear voices, yet?"

 

"What do you mean?" he asked slowly. He could feel Lews Therin listening.

 

The tingle returned to his skin, and he very nearly channeled, but all that happened was that the teapot rose and floated to Cadsuane, turning slowly in the air for her to examine. "Some men who can channel begin to hear voices." She spoke almost absently, frowning at the flattened sphere of silver and gold. "It is a part of the madness. Voices conversing with them, telling them what to do." The teapot drifted gently to the floor by her feet. "Have you heard any?"

 

Suddenly, Dashiva gave a raucous laugh, shoulders shaking. Narishma wet his lips; he might not have been afraid of the woman before, but now he watched her closely as a scorpion.

 

"I will ask the questions," Rand said firmly. "You seem to forget. I am the Dragon Reborn." You are real, aren't you? he wondered. There was no answer. Lews Therin? Sometimes the man did not answer, but Aes Sedai always drew him. Lews Therin? He was not mad; the voice was real, not imagination. Not madness. A sudden desire to laugh did not help.

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It’s important to keep in mind why Cadsuane is doing all this. To push Rand off balance, to deliberately antagonize him; I already quoted in the section above in one of my examples of the thought trend that Rand himself identifies that Cadsuane is deliberately trying to provoke him. The tossed tea, the fury, and the later tossing of the Dragon Scepter and destruction of his rooms that Min’s sees show the success.

 

Through it all it is important to keep in mind why this would cause Lews Therin to disappear: he is an expression of Rand’s suppressed emotions. With Rand expressing his own emotions, the need for Lews Therin disappears. Rand expressed his emotions, both anger and fear in there as well, for the first time in a long time. Conversely, and this is how Lews Therin will later reappear, the more Rand suppresses his emotions the more the need becomes for them to be expressed. Like with the memories, if Rand suppresses things, it doesn’t mean they go away. Rand still has the memory of trying to Heal a dead girl, of killing a female Darkfriend, and others that over time he has suppressed. All this suppression just creates the need to express them in some form.

 

So, after Rand expressed his emotions in the above incident, he soon went back to what he always does: suppressing emotions in the need to be “hard” and to be the Dragon Reborn as he sees it. Eventually, because of this, Lews Therin returned. But note how this happens. Just like with Lews Therin’s eventual appearance in the first place, his reappearance is gradual. The first signs of this are actually in A Crown of Swords itself.

 

 

Quote:

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TITLE: Crown of Swords

CHAPTER: 41 - A Crown of Swords

 

Tossing, Rand dreamed, wild dreams where he argued with Perrin and begged Mat to find Elayne, where colors flashed just beyond sight and Padan Fain leaped at him with a flashing blade, and sometimes he heard a voice moaning for a dead woman in the heart of a fog, dreams where he tried to explain himself to Elayne, to Aviendha, to Min, to all three at once, and even Min looked at him with scorn.

 

"... not to be disturbed!" Cadsuane's voice. Part of his dreams? The voice frightened him; in his dream he shouted for Lews Therin, and the sound echoed through a thick mist where shapes moved and people and horses died screaming, a fog where Cadsuane followed him implacably while he ran, panting. Alanna tried to soothe him, but she was afraid of Cadsuane, too; he could feel her fear as strongly as his own. His head hurt. And his side; the old scar was fire. He felt saidin. Someone held saidin. Was it him? He did not know. He struggled to wake.

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Now, I'm sure many people have discounted this as what happened in the bubble of evil earlier. However, there is no reference of a man moaning for a dead woman in the fog. And what man moans over the dead woman he loved? Of course, Lews Therin. Along with this Lews Therin has been referred to before as fog in Rand’s head:

 

 

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TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 2 - A New Arrival

 

Rand shook with the effort of fighting that voice down, forcing away a mist that clung like spiderwebs. His muscles ached as if he wrestled with a man of flesh, a giant. Handful by handful he stuffed the fog that was Lews Therin into the deepest crannies, the deepest shadows, he could find in his mind.

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So, if it is not convincing enough, it is surely one of the first questionable instances of Lews Therin’s reappearance. But then even later in A Crown of Swords we have yet another instance that signals Lews Therin’s gradual return:

 

 

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TITLE: Crown of Swords

CHAPTER: 41 - A Crown of Swords

 

His hands rose, and he wove balefire. Began to weave it. Someone else's cheek stung from a remembered slap, and Cadsuane's voice hissed and crackled in his head like the holes the red filaments had made. Never again, boy; you will never do that again. It seemed that he heard Lews Therin whimpering in distant fear of what he was about to loose, what had almost destroyed the world once. Every flow but Fire and Air fell away, and he wove as he had seen. A thousand fine hairs of red blossomed between his hands, fanning out slightly they shot upward. A circle of the ceiling two feet across fell in stone chips and plaster dust.

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Lews Therin is still gone, but he is returning already. Then we progress to The Path of Daggers and three very interesting instances that continue to signal this gradual return.

 

 

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TITLE: Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 13 - Floating Like Snow

 

What would you do? he thought. Are you there? And then, doubtfully, hating the doubt, Were you ever there? Silence answered, deep and dead in the emptiness that surrounded him. Or was there mad laughter somewhere in the recesses of his mind? Did he imagine it, like the feel of someone looking over his shoulder, someone just on the brink of touching his back? Or the colors that swirled just out of sight, more than colors, and were gone? A thing of madmen. His gloved thumb slid along the carvings that serpentined the Dragon Scepter. The long green-and-white tassels below the polished spearpoint fluttered in the wind. Fire and ice, and death would come.

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TITLE: Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 13 - Floating Like Snow

 

As the Asha'man drew near, Rand could not help cocking his head to listen, though what he listened for was inside his head. Alanna was there, of course; neither the Void nor the Power altered that a whisker. Distance wore that awareness down to just that--awareness that she existed, somewhere far to the north--yet there was something more today, something he had felt several times recently, dim and barely on the edge of notice. A whisper of shock, perhaps, or outrage, a breath of something sharp he could not quite grasp. She must feel whatever it was very strongly for him to be even that conscious of it at this distance. Maybe she was missing him. A wry thought. He did not miss her. Ignoring Alanna was easier than it had been once. She was there, but not the voice that used to shout of death and killing whenever an Asha'man came into sight. Lews Therin was gone. Unless that feel of someone staring at the back of his head, brushing his shoulder blades with a finger, was him. Was there a madman's hoarse laughter deep in his thoughts? Or was it his own? The man had been there! He had!

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TITLE: Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 14 - Message from the M'Hael

 

Flinn saluted again, but Rand was already striding away, black mud squelching around his boots. No cheers rose for him in the blustering wind. He could recall when there had been. If that was not one of Lews Therin's memories. If Lews Therin had ever been real. A flash of color just beyond the edge of sight, the feel of someone about to touch him from behind. With an effort, he focused himself.

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Before it’s doubtful anyone could make out exactly what was going on here, but especially after Knife of Dreams it becomes obvious that three things are happening in these three examples:

 

1. The color flashes Rand sees are of course the early signs of what Rand, Mat, and Perrin can do. We still don’t have a good reason why, other than being ta’veren, just know that they can do this.

 

2. The sense of someone just about to touch Rand is Moridin, due to the balefire link that was apparently made. Where Rand defines it as “brink” is especially telling, since I can hardly think of a better word to explain how the two are close enough to touch each other with just shifting without saying just that.

 

3. This leaves the remaining laughter in Rand’s thoughts to be nothing other than Lews Therin, on his gradual return.

 

An interesting note to point out is that Rand himself is questioning whether this laughter is his own. With Lews Therin being a construct, the answer is of course yes that it is Rand’s own laughter; he’s just personifying it as Lews Therin. After this, the next thing we hear from or about Lews Therin is his actual return:

 

 

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TITLE: The Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 14 – Message from the M’Hael

 

“I won’t fail,” Narishma said, unblinking. With a quick salute, he was gone, too.

 

Dangerous, a voice whispered in Rand’s head. Oh, yes, very dangerous, maybe too dangerous. But it might work; it might. In any event, you must kill Torval now. You must.

 

Weiramon entered the council tent, shouldering aside Gregorin and Tolmeran, trying to shoulder aside Rosana and Semaradrid, the lot of them eager to tell Rand that the men in the trees had decided wisely after all. They found him laughing till tears rolled down his face. Lews Therin had come back. Or else he really was mad already. Either way, it was reason to laugh.

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And so his gradual return is documented. Except for two curious notions that if you don’t look at close enough just pass right by. The first is the continuing thing of Lews Therin being able to seemingly read Rand’s mind. This example isn’t the best showcasing of that, but it is another strange incident like it at least.

 

The second is far more interesting. Notice what Lews Therin says. He remarks on the dangerous part of Narishma; yes, that’s the above point. But then he says that Rand “must kill Torval now.” Just looking at it alone it seems perfectly in line with Lews Therin’s thoughts: he almost always rants of killing Asha’man, of killing any male channeler most the time. However, what is curious about this is that this is what brings Lews Therin back. Narishma is just another comment; it might work, it might not, but this is what you have to focus on: Torval. What is even more interesting is that this is not an independent thought of Lews Therin’s. It’s not as if Lews Therin is the only one thinking about killing Torval. Like with the reading of Rand’s thoughts, look at what happens just before Lews Therin returns:

 

 

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TITLE: Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 14 - Message from the M'Hael

 

Torval lifted his head from the maps, plainly ready to give the rough side of his tongue to whoever had barged in on him. Close to his middle years and tall beside anyone save Rand or an Aiel, he stared coldly down a sharp nose that practically quivered with indignation. The Dragon and the Sword glistened on his coat collar in the light of the stand-lamps. A silk coat, shining black, cut fine enough for a lord. His sword had silver mountings washed with gold, and a glittering red gem capped the hilt. Another gleamed darkly on a finger ring. You could not train men to be weapons without expecting a certain amount of arrogance, yet Rand did not like Torval. But then, he had no need of Lews Therin's voice to be suspicious of any man in a black coat. How far did he truly trust even Flinn? Yet he had to lead them. The Asha'man were his making, his responsibility.

 

...

 

"What are you doing here, Torval?" Rand asked roughly. He tossed the Dragon Scepter and his gauntlets down atop the maps and followed them with his sword belt and scabbarded sword. The maps that Torval had no reason to be studying. No need of Lews Therin's voice.

 

...

 

"I said leave them alone!" Rand slapped the tabletop, hard, and Hopwil jumped in surprise. Dashiva frowned with irritation before hurriedly smoothing it over, but Rand was not interested in Dashiva's moods. By chance--he was sure it was chance--his hand had come down on the Dragon Scepter. His arm trembled with the desire to take it up and stab Torval through the heart. No need for Lews Therin at all. "The Asha'man are a weapon to be aimed where I say, not to flutter around like hens every time Taim gets frightened over a handful of Aes Sedai having dinner at the same inn. If I must, I can come back to make myself clearer."

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Rand himself has the desire to kill Torval! At the same time, he is showcasing his greater distrust of Asha’man -- which can arguably be said to have been there since the Black Tower started -- and that he has “no need of Lews Therin.” Why on earth would Lews Therin make the same comment Rand does regarding the same person (which by the way, Rand is suppressing), if he is such an independent personality, if his thoughts and sayings were so completely separate from Rand’s? They’re not. This is the culmination of Rand’s continued need for expressing his emotions, for expressing what he continues to suppress. More over this is just showing again that the great divide between Rand and Lews Therin’s “thoughts” is an illusion. Rand’s suppressed thoughts and feelings on the matter lead directly to Lews Therin’s own. How can that be if Lews Therin is not truly Rand?

 

Amazingly, this is not the only instance that this happens. We see Lews Therin’s thoughts lead directly from Rand’s in many instances, as I documented above. But even more amazingly, we see nearly the exact same thing happen in Rand’s very next chapter:

 

 

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TITLE: The Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 21 – Answering the Summons

 

“As you command, my Lord Dragon,” Gedwyn muttered. “I’ll send men out immediately.” With a curt salute, fist to chest, he strode out into the storm. The deluge bent away from him, sheeting down the small shield he wove around himself. Rand wondered whether the man suspected how close he had come to dying when he seized saidin without warning.

 

You must kill him before he kills you, Lews Therin giggled. They will, you know. Dead men can’t betray anyone. The voice in Rand’s head turned wondering. But sometimes they don’t die. Am I dead? Are you?

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The only difference is that it’s another Asha’man, but the same thing happens: Rand has the urge to kill him, suppresses it, and Lews Therin next speaks of killing him. This by the way is yet another, even stronger, instance of Lews Therin reading Rand’s thoughts. Rand didn’t vocalize his wondering thought -- again, we know when he does because those are italicized -- but Lews Therin still knew what Rand was thinking.

 

What Lews Therin “is”:

 

It’s hard to find the right words to best describe how one views what Lews Therin truly is. “Personality.” Yeah, thanks, that helps not at all. How I view things, Lews Therin is by and large two symbiotic points:

 

1. Rand has suppressed many things that Lews Therin then expresses.

 

2. Lews Therin, deep down, is truly Rand.

 

They are symbiotic because they are so very closely linked. After all, the entire idea is that because of what Rand suppresses that the need for Lews Therin to express them came about, making Lews Therin deep down Rand. In this way one can say that Lews Therin is at the same time a reflection of Rand, as well as an inversion. He is both Rand himself, yet different from Rand because he expresses what Rand himself does not.

 

Linking back to the points above, Lews Therin’s thoughts seem to all be Rand’s. Even moments where he speaks of Ilyena seem to be brought up for a specific reason. Other times the use of Ilyena just seems to be a way for Rand to express his own sadness or feelings of women. Think about it for a moment. Lews Therin always moans over a dead woman, Ilyena. What are the two memories that Rand himself forces away that are his own memories? These two among primacy:

 

 

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TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 6 – Gateways

 

Unbidden, unwanted, memory returned of the next-to-last time he had dared let himself hold Callandor, images floating beyond the Void.

 

The body of the dark-haired girl, little more than a child, lay sprawled with eyes wide and fixed on the ceiling, blood blackening the bosom of her dress where a Trolloc had run her through.

 

The Power was in him. Callandor blazed, and he was the Power. He channeled, directing flows into the child’s body, searching, trying, fumbling; she lurched to her feet, arms and legs unnaturally rigid and jerky.

 

“Rand, you cannot do this,” Moiraine cried. “Not this!”

 

Breathe. She had to breathe. The girl’s chest rose and fell. Heart. Had to beat. Blood already thick and dark oozed from the wound in her chest. Live, burn you! his mind howled. I didn’t mean to be too late! Her eyes stared at him, filmed, heedless of all the Power in him. Lifeless. Tears trickled unheeded down his cheeks.

 

He forced the memory away roughly; even encased in the Void, it hurt. With this much Power. . . With this much Power, he could not be trusted. "You are not the Creator" Moiraine had told him as he stood over that child. But with that male figure, with only half of its power, he had made the mountains move, once. With far less, with only Callandor, he had been sure he could turn back the Wheel, make a dead child live. Not only the One Power was seductive; the power of it was, too. He should destroy them both. Instead he rewove the flows, reset the traps.

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TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 52 - Choices

 

Images darted through the pain. A woman in a dark merchant’s dress, toppling from her horse, the fire-red sword light in his hands; she had come to kill him, with a fistful of other Darkfriends. Mat’s bleak eyes; I killed her. A golden-haired woman lying in a ruined hallway where, it seemed, the very walls had melted and flowed. Ilyena, forgive me! It was a despairing cry.

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This quote is especially telling since it encapsulates this point entirely: Rand is thinking of the dead women in his life, when he’s facing Lanfear, and this brings up a response about Ilyena and the memory of her. Remember, Rand suppresses not only his memories, but also those that he is receiving from Lews Therin’s past life. So, even Lews Therin moaning over his Ilyena can be seen to be nothing but Rand expressing his own feelings about women, or sadness, in instances. Really the only difference between Rand and Lews Therin regarding Ilyena and women seems to be the memories that trigger the responses.

 

One of the key points of believing Lews Therin is real is in the fact that he is an independent, freethinking, free saying, thing. He just seems completely different from Rand, so of course he’s a real separate personality makes complete sense. But this is again an illusion. If one looks at many of the instances of Lews Therin, you begin to see that Lews Therin is not separate. On the contrary, as I have shown, Lews Therin seems to be almost entirely a mirror of Rand.

 

(Note: If one accepts this word usage, then an event in the books becomes quite interesting to look at for themes: The Shadow Rising bubble of evil where Rand is attacked by several of his own reflections. As well, the reflection and inversion could be construed to be a play on Jordan’s theme of working opposites, like saidin and saidar.)

 

To bind this all together, let’s go over once again what I feel Lews Therin is. Rand in the beginning was under tremendous stress. Again, he was dealing with the fact that he was the Dragon Reborn, and he split that into being himself Rand al’Thor and being the “Dragon Reborn.” This more and more developed into the suppression of Rand’s emotions, and what we later determined to be Rand’s need to be “harder.” This is again what I like to call deny and fight, or what might be called a basic defense mechanism. Rand soon enough began to suppress his own memories of certain events. Around the same time that this all started to kick into full gear, another development occurred: Rand started to receive these genuine memories from Lews Therin’s past life. Rand, as I showed, just couldn’t deal with this, just like with some of his own memories. He again denied what was happening, and fought against it, forcefully at times. Throughout the series, Rand like many characters has had his internal monologue, his conscience. The final part of what really began Rand’s mental damage (not to say these before weren’t damaging already) was the totaled effect of general taint madness. Enough taint had started to break down his barrier, and that as well was affecting his mental state.

 

This confluence of factors (stress, suppression of emotions and memories, conscience, and taint madness) effectively split Rand’s personality into two. This happened again because the suppression of emotions and memories doesn’t make them go away; it just creates the need to have them expressed somehow. Lews Therin took form as Rand’s way to express these needs. This is how Lews Therin is an inversion of Rand, again, as well as a reflection since Lews Therin is Rand (in conscience, in knowledge, etc.).

 

Rand suppressed more and more emotions and memories, and began to experience some instances of “Lews Therin.” He began to personify these instances, and to do so with regularity. Lews Therin “grew” through this suppression and personification, along with more of the genuine memories, from thoughts originally to a voice to essentially being no different from another full personality except being constructed by Rand.

 

We see this reflection and inversion in every aspect that I have addressed. From the way Lews Therin can seem to “read Rand’s mind,” to how he can know of and effect the list in Rand’s head, to never using Rand’s name, to Lews Therin’s mannerisms and sayings, to his disappearance and return, to the use of Ilyena and other emotions, to why Lews Therin “has a voice in his head,” to Rand’s own confusion over which thoughts are truly his in some instances. We’ll continue to see it in a few more aspects.

 

As I said before, Rand just plain denied what was going on, and even denied Lews Therin though he couldn’t for long. He still sometimes shouts at Lews Therin that he’s dead, and other denials. What’s very interesting is that we just happen to see this very same thing in Lews Therin about Rand:

 

 

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TITLE: A Crown of Swords

CHAPTER: 7 – Pitfalls and Tripwires

 

There was only silence. Often enough, Lews Therin did not answer. Maybe it had been better when he never had.

 

Are you real? the voice said at last, wonderingly. That denial of Rand’s existence was as usual as refusing to answer. Am I? I spoke to someone. I think I did. Inside a box. A chest. Wheezing laughter, soft. Am I dead, or mad, or both? No matter. I am surely damned. I am damned, and this is the Pit of Doom. I am ... d-damned, wild that laughing, now, and t-this -- is the P-Pit of--

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We again see similarity with Rand and Lews Therin regarding the box.

 

 

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TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 55 – Dumai’s Wells

 

Dark, Lews Therin moaned in the depths of his head. No more dark. No more. Over and over again. Not too badly, though. Rand just ignored him this time.

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TITLE: A Crown of Swords

CHAPTER: 7 – Pitfalls and Tripwires

 

“Don’t you think I’ve enough on my play without a war against the White Tower? Elaida grabbed my throat and was slapped down.” The ground erupting in fire and torn flesh. Ravens and vultures gorging. How many dead? Slapped down. “If she has sense enough to stop there, I will too.” So long as they did not ask him to trust. The chest. He was shaking his head, half-aware of Lews Therin suddenly moaning about the dark and the thirst. He could ignore, he had to ignore, but not forget, or trust.

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TITLE: Winter's Heart

CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal

 

To other eyes than his, nothing distinguished the place where he had dug before going into Far Madding. To his eyes, a thin shaft that shone like a lantern rose through the damp mulch on the forest floor. Even another man who could channel could have walked through that shaft without knowing it was there. He did not bother to dismount. Using flows of Air, he ripped aside the thick layer of rotting leaves and twigs and shoveled away damp earth until he uncovered a long, narrow bundle tied with leather cords. Clods of dirt clung to the wrapping-cloth as he floated Callandor to his hand. He had not dared carry that to Far Madding. Without a scabbard, he would have had to leave it at the bridge fortress, a dangerous flag waiting to announce his presence. It was unlikely there was another sword made of crystal to be found in the world, and too many people knew that the Dragon Reborn had one. And leaving it here, he had still ended up in a dark, cramped stone box under the….No. That was done and over. Over. Lews Therin panted in the shadows of his mind.

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There are also two direct, but lengthy, scenes in Winter’s Heart and Knife of Dreams that show this with crystal clear clarity (as well as his own suppression of the events just like the deaths above). We also see similarity with physical conditions as well:

 

 

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TITLE: A Crown of Swords

CHAPTER: 7 – Pitfalls and Tripwires

 

There are no clear paths. Only pitfalls and tripwires and darkness. Lews Therin’s snarl sounded sweaty, desperate. The way Rand felt.

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Then there is similarity in sayings. From the endless slips Rand makes, to Lews Therin using Rand’s own favorite saying, to thoughts about women, to even thoughts about each other:

 

 

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TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 17 – The Wheel of a Life

 

Rand shivered. Sometimes it really did seem that voice was speaking to him. If only it would make sense once in a while, having it in his head would be easier.

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TITLE: The Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 23 – Fog of War, Storm of Battle

 

I would not mind you in my head, Lews Therin said, sounding almost sane, if you were not so clearly mad.

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To instances that just seem to be “pure” mirroring (I would also consider instances of confusion of whose’s thought is who as instances of “pure” mirroring):

 

 

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TITLE: The Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 51 – News Comes to Cairhien

 

Rand felt as if his belly had been ripped out. Elayne, forgive me. And a faint echo, altered. Ilyena, forgive me. “Are you certain?”

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TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 55 – Dumai’s Wells

 

Free, Lews Therin breathed, and it was an echo of Rand’s thought. Free. Or maybe the other way around.

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TITLE: Winter’s Heart

CHAPTER: 25 – Bonds

 

Rand could almost feel Lews Therin go still, like a ridge cat crouching in the shadows. Lews Therin was almost as wary of this woman as he was himself.

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Then there’s a final very nice tidbit from Rand himself:

 

 

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TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 45 - After the Storm

 

Perhaps there was no real reason to hide what was going on inside his head--maybe it was only an attempt to deny reality to himself--but Sammael the man would remain. And as Sammael, he would pay in full for every Maiden he had killed. The Maidens Rand had not been able to keep safe.

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How nice of Rand to so perfectly wonder if Lews Therin is nothing more than an effect of Rand’s, that Lews Therin might just be a defense mechanism. How nice that this piece of information fits with Rand’s wonderings if Lews Therin is really his own mad laughter, as I quoted from The Path of Daggers. As well to Rand and Lews Therin’s wonderings if they are “clean” from the taint. Now to some of the big “reasons” against believing Lews Therin is a construct.

 

Lews Therin and the One Power:

 

Many people find that since we have now seen Lews Therin “channel” the One Power, that it is further proof that Lews Therin is real. It’s not. If you look at this instance, it is absolutely nothing in line of iron-hard proof for Lews Therin being real, and adds far more weight on Rand actually doing this himself. I have two comparable analogies for explaining why I believe this.

 

First, a person sees a remote, they reach for it, and grab it. Which hand picked it up? It doesn’t matter a damn, because they picked it up. Right hand or left hand they still hold the remote. In this way, it doesn’t matter if it’s Rand that holds saidin or if Lews Therin “holds saidin” -- it’s still Rand’s body that is the conduit for the One Power, and it’s still Rand that is in control of his body.

 

Second, imagine a person wants to change a light bulb. Should they use their hand or should they put on a glove? It doesn’t matter, because they are still going to change the light bulb.

 

When Lews Therin “channels” the One Power, he really isn’t doing this. It’s truly Rand channeling the One Power. Why? Because Lews Therin, deep down, is really Rand. Why? Because Lews Therin is a construct made by Rand.

 

A curious thing also happens when Lews Therin holds saidin. As I mentioned above, he doesn’t control Rand’s body (hands or voice). People tend to get this very confused. Lews Therin “channeling” saidin is not the same as Lews Therin taking over Rand. When this event occurred, Rand still remained Rand. He was still in control of his body. He could think, he could see, he could talk, he could move his hands -- Lews Therin controlled none of this. There is a fundamental difference between Rand losing a battle of self and Lews Therin “channeling” saidin. Once again, when Lews Therin “channels” he’s not really doing anything; it is all Rand’s doing. For a specific instance of this, look at what Lews Therin “channels” in the scene:

 

 

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TITLE: Knife of Dreams

CHAPTER 19 – Vows

 

Flows of Air pushed the casement in front of him out in a shower of shattered glass and fragmented wood. My hands, Lews Therin panted. Why can't I move my hands? I need to raise my hands! Earth, Air and Fire went into a weave Rand did not know, six of them at once. Except that as soon as he saw the spinning, he did know. Blossom of Fire. Six vertical red shafts appeared among the Trollocs, ten feet tall and thinner than Rand's forearm. The nearest Trollocs would be hearing their shrill whine, but unless memories had been passed down from the War of the Shadow, they would not realize they were hearing death. Lews Therin spun the last thread of Air, and fire blossomed. With a roar that shook the manor house, each red shaft expanded in a heartbeat to a disc of flame thirty feet across. Horned heads and snouted heads flew into the air, and pinwheeling arms, booted legs and legs that ended in paws or hooves. Trollocs a hundred paces and more away from the explosions went down, and only some got up again. Even as he was spinning those webs, Lews Therin spun six others, Spirit touched with Fire, the weave for a gateway, but then he added touches of Earth, so, and so. The familiar silvery-blue vertical streaks appeared, spaced out not far from the manor house, ground Rand knew well, rotating into -- not openings, but the misty back of a gateway, four paces by four.

 

Rather than remaining open, they rotated shut again, opening and shutting continuously. And rather than remaining fixed, they sped toward the Trollocs. Gateways and yet not. Deathgates. As soon as the Deathgates began to move, Lews Therin knotted the webs, a loose knotting that would hold only for minutes before allowing the whole weave to dissipate, and began spinning again. More Deathgates, more Blossoms of Fire, rattling the walls of the house, blowing Trollocs apart, flinging them down. The first of the speeding Deathgates struck the Trollocs and carved through them. It was not just the slicing edge of the constantly opening and closing gateways. Where a Deathgate passed, there simply were no Trollocs remaining. My hands! the madman howled. My hands!

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Lews Therin just so happens to “channel” at places Rand knows well. This is very strange if Lews Therin is not Rand. Why would it be based on what Rand knows, compared to what Lews Therin knows? Add in the other aspect that Lews Therin cannot do anything regarding Rand’s physical movement, and Rand is still being Rand throughout all this, it brings a question into real focus: just what exactly is Lews Therin doing?

 

Popping out new weaves? Well, we’ve seen Rand do that plenty of times throughout the series (I’ve pointed out several). Is every single one of those instances and instance of Lews Therin channeling? If so, why isn’t there any shock at him doing so? Why isn’t there any scrambling or a battle for saidin or to maintain it like here? Why isn’t there a conversation effectively “talking Lews Therin down” from killing himself (really, killing Rand)?

 

My answer is simple: Lews Therin isn’t doing anything here. The same reason it has to be Rand’s knowledge of the ground for the Deathgates, the same way it has to be Rand that moves his hands in order to use Arrows of Fire, the same way that Rand remains Rand throughout all of this ordeal, the same way that saidin still comes from Rand. The only thing different is that Rand is ascribing that Lews Therin is channeling here. Why? Because he is denying reality to himself, and doesn’t realize that Lews Therin is really himself.

 

 

[Davian93]

To assume otherwise is to assume that all the other instances of Rand channeling and doing new weaves is Lews Therin really channeling. Which makes this instance nothing unique at all -- except that it is still remarked by Rand himself as fundamentally different from any other channeling incident, and we know that this is nothing like we’ve seen before.

 

Semirhage’s Comments:

 

Yet again the big evidence that anyone dares to use for saying Lews Therin is real. People have lambasted me in the past for this evidence, because I am well know for sticking to and using quotes from the books as the basis for evidence. And there it is. Nicely said and stated. What people tend to ignore is that if there is a contradiction, the evidence becomes suspect. For example with the blue flash that occurs when Thom tackles the Myrddraal, Jordan has given conflicting answers with himself and with what he wrote in The Eye of the World. No answer so far can be given to correctly explain this for sure one way or another because of these contradictions.

 

I hope in what I have presented so far above there is at least bringing some doubt as to whether Semirhage’s words are worth even the ink Jordan typed them on. I’ve been working under this entire time that Semirhage’s statement that Lews Therin is real, is actually true. It still brings up major conflicts by just stipulating, “He’s real.” Let’s look again at what she says:

 

 

Quote:

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TITLE: Knife of Dreams

CHAPTER: 27 – A Plain Wooden Box

 

Semirhage saved him the trouble of thinking up a lie. “He’s insane,” she said coolly. Standing there stiff as a statue, Min’s knife hilt still sticking out beside her collarbone and the front of her black dress glistening with blood, she might have been a queen on her throne. “Graendal could explain it better than I. Madness was her specialty. I will try, however. You know of people who hear voices in their heads? Sometimes, very rarely, the voices they hear are the voices of past lives. Lanfear claimed he knew things from our own Age, things only Lews Therin Telamon could know. Clearly, he is hearing Lews Therin’s voice. It makes no difference that his voice is real, however. In fact, that makes his situation worse. Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintergration with someone who heard a real voice. I understand the descent into terminal madness can be…abrupt.” Her lips curved in a smile that never touched her dark eyes.

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And then lets look at her points one by one. First off, she says Rand is insane. Well, no one truly doubts that. Again, whether people believe Lews Therin is real or he is a construct, they still believe Rand is mad (though how a real voice in your head makes you mad is quite strange). Second, this isn’t Semirhage’s specialty, and that Graendal could explain better. I do not doubt this was not Semirhage’s specialty, nor that it was Graendal’s specialty with dealing with mental illness. Third, Semirhage’s claim that voices people hear in their heads are past lives. Again, I do not disagree with this -- this is actually the point of my barrier degradation theory, and even Semirhage says it’s very rare that this occurs. The vast majority of instances we’ve heard of however are taint madness of male channelers.

 

Fourth, and the key point, Semirhage’s insistence that this voice is the real Lews Therin. What is she basing this on? From Lanfear’s observations that Rand knew things from the Age of Legends that only Lews Therin could know. This isn’t showing that he is hearing the real Lews Therin -- this only highlights the entire issue with this debate. Simply having the knowledge (and only parts of the knowledge at that) from Lews Therin does not mean Rand has the real Lews Therin in his head. Yes, Rand has genuine memories from Lews Therin; but off of the basis of those memories, he has created this entire construct of his own, with what that entails as shown above. Technically, I don’t believe this is a lie. I view this as willingful deceit; she doesn’t have all the information we do, but she is using what she does have to push an agenda of her own that is harmful to Rand. One can view it as a play on Jordan’s theme of lack of complete knowledge (you know, one of the things that so many people complain about?).

 

Fifth, this is what I believe is Semirhage’s lie: that Graendal had a case like this before. Graendal herself, at a time when Rand was already showing signs of what would be Lews Therin in Lanfear’s presence, has said that she has never heard of a case like Rand’s before, let alone seen or dealt with one:

 

 

Quote:

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TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Sparks Fall

 

"If this Rand al'Thor really is Lews Therin Telamon reborn," Graendal went on, settling herself on the man's back where he crouched on all fours, "I am surprised you haven't tried to snuggle him into your bed, Lanfear. Or would it be so easy? I seem to remember Lews Therin led you by the nose, not the other way around. Squelched your little tantrums. Sent you running to fetch his wine, in a manner of speaking." She set her own wine on the tray, held out rigidly by the sightlessly kneeling woman. "You were so obsessed with him you'd have stretched out at his feet if he said 'rug.'"

 

Lanfear's dark eyes glittered for a moment before she regained control of herself. "He may be Lews Therin reborn, but he is not Lews Therin himself."

 

"How do you know?" Graendal asked, smiling as if it were all a joke. "It may well be that, as many believe, all are born and reborn as the Wheel turns, but nothing like this has ever happened that I have read. A specific man reborn according to prophecy. Who knows what he is?"

 

Lanfear gave a disparaging smirk. "I have observed him closely. He is no more than the shepherd he seems, still more naive than not." Scorn faded to seriousness. "But now he has Asmodean, weak ally as he is. And even before Asmodean, four of the Chosen have died confronting him."

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A lot of people have interpreted this to mean that Rand’s madness is not caused by the taint (or that the taint didn’t break down his barrier). Even if we accept these statements as true, this just ascribes that Rand’s condition is specific form of madness. What does the taint due but drive male channelers mad? The way that Lews Therin went mad in the Age of Legends, the way a male Aes Sedai went mad in the Age of Legends killing Aiel, the way that Fedwin Morr went mad, and the way that the unnamed recruit at the Black Tower went mad, have all been shown to be different, specific to each person.

 

Even if we accept that this is a condition of a specific madness, the taint is still ultimately the cause for it. Even if it is this madness that broke down Rand’s barrier, the taint is still the cause for it, the trigger. Otherwise, we not only have to accept that Semirhage’s words about Graendal’s cases is true, but now we have to search for a new explanation of where Rand’s taint madness has gone. Make no mistake in it -- Rand has had a lot of taint enter into him. Its effect has to be seen somewhere, and probably in more than one place. If we accept Semirhage’s words, and that this madness is not caused by the taint, we’ve no explanation for what the taint has done to Rand. Apparently then Rand has just been immune to all of it so far. As well, the enormous correlation between the taint Rand takes in and Lews Therin’s appearance is just a large red herring.

 

Sixth, yet another true remark I feel. Rand’s decent has been nothing but abrupt when one looks at that Rand has been channeling for roughly about 2 years or a little more, and had Lews Therin with him for over a year to at most a year and a half. Just look at his condition now compared to the other 20 or so years of his life. The only thing to not make this abrupt would be if it happened within weeks, instead of a year or so. The decent into madness is surely abrupt, and I would say with any madness; that this is made worse by Rand having a “real” voice in his head, I believe is the same as the above lie.

 

Three final points that must be maintained when looking at her comments. First, Rand himself knows that Semirhage is dangerous even in a captivity situation. She knows that Rand’s forces are the only things going for him now, and to cause ruination with those is a big service to the Shadow. I don’t mean to imply that she deliberately allowed herself to be captured to spread this information; just that she is aware of it, and will use it whether her capture was intended to fail or not.

 

Second, we’ve seen countless times the Forsaken lie to each other, withhold truth from even their followers, for whenever it brings them gain. The fact that Semirhage is a Forsaken does not immediately cast doubt on her words. The fact that they are exceptionally vague, and truly do nothing other than assert that Lews Therin is “real” brings doubt on them.

 

Third, yet again, even if we accept Semirhage’s words as true, it still leaves a multitude of issues that are completely unresolved, and bring up contention directly with Lews Therin being “real.” Answers that involve Lews Therin being “real” are either completely nonexistent to those issues, or either wholly unsatisfying if not incoherent or contradictions.

 

Why this is important:

 

I’ve heard people say that it doesn’t matter whether Lews Therin is real or not; it’s a moot point. Well, it’s partially true. Whether Lews Therin is the real Lews Therin’s personality or a construct made by Rand, it is still a vital problem for Rand. No one denies this. The same way that whether people believe Lews Therin is real or not do not doubt that Rand is mad (though I say their grounds for claiming so are quite foolhardy).

 

But that in no way makes this a moot point. On the contrary, that is what makes this distinction so important. Once we know what Lews Therin truly is, we can know how Rand will have to deal with him and eventually rid himself of Lews Therin (unless people subscribe to the idea that will never happen, in which this truly does become a moot point; however, I’m not one of those). Seeing the truth of this is obvious. The way to deal with a real personality in your head is quite different from dealing with a construct of your own making (consciously and/or subconsciously).

 

If Lews Therin is a construct, it gives Rand the means to “easily” rid himself of Lews Therin, I believe. I view Lews Therin in a parallel to what is needed for a fire to be made. You need three key elements: air, heat, and fuel. Take away one of them and a fire will go out or will not form in the first place.

 

In time, things might be done to make Rand be able to integrate the continuing memories coming into his head in a fashion other than Lews Therin, but for now, I don’t see much in the line of a workable method. Likewise, taint madness doesn’t seem to be able to be Healed or dealt with in any usable fashion (True Power Healing works it seems, but how that will be feasible I don’t see occurring). Taking away the stress of being the Dragon Reborn is next to impossible if Rand continues to be the Dragon Reborn, and it’s not like he stop being who he is, though I do feel the levels can be reduced in a way (IE: Min is a help here).

 

What’s left to be dealt with is Rand’s suppression of emotions. Since one of the key elements of Lews Therin is the output for Rand’s emotions, without them being suppressed the need for Lews Therin will disappear. We’ve already seen an instance of this: again, when Lews Therin disappears from roughly the middle of A Crown of Swords till early The Path of Daggers. He actually expresses his emotions and Lews Therin disappears. After this, Rand eventually went back to suppressing more and more of his emotions, and Lews Therin gradually returned. How Lews Therin will disappear for good is by what Cadsuane has to teach Rand and all the Asha’man:

 

 

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TITLE: Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 12 - New Alliances

 

Still, Cadsuane felt a rising thrill of possibility. If she had had any doubts that Sorilea wanted to feel her out, they were gone. And you did not feel out someone in this manner unless you hoped for some agreement. "Do you believe a man must be hard?" she asked. She was taking a chance. "Or strong?" By her tone, she left no doubt she saw a difference.

 

Again Sorilea touched the tray; the smallest of smiles might have quirked her lips for an instant. Or not. "Most men see the two as one and the same, Cadsuane Melaidhrin. Strong endures; hard shatters."

 

Cadsuane drew breath. A chance she would have scoured anyone else for taking. But she was not anyone else, and sometimes chances had to be taken. "The boy confuses them," she said. "He needs to be strong, and makes himself harder. Too hard, already, and he will not stop until he is stopped. He has forgotten how to laugh except in bitterness; there are no tears left in him. Unless he finds laughter and tears again, the world faces disaster. He must learn that even the Dragon Reborn is flesh. If he goes to Tarmon Gai'don as he is, even his victory may be as dark as his defeat."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Cadsuane will teach Rand, and all the Asha’man, “laughter and tears” again. How this will be done is through another aspect that others have deemed a sign of madness: Rand’s litany of dead women he keeps. Who leads the top of this list? None other than Moiraine, who, as it just so happens, is not dead. Who Min has had viewings of, and we know those do not fail. Who is by far the most likely candidate for being the one who is “dead and gone” that Rand will fail without.

 

With Moiraine’s eventual return, and Rand’s knowledge of this, I could hardly pick a better incident to cause Rand to finally express his emotions and destroy the list at the same time. The list creates another need to suppress emotions, to become “harder,” and with the list gone it removes a key place where Lews Therin is needed. Removing the list I don’t think removes Lews Therin; however, it’s surely a big step along the path to doing so, will surely be done, and (in undoubtedly a very annoying process) will be exploited by Cadsuane to do the job.

 

Predictions:

 

Out of all of this, if it is true, I predict five things to “occur.” I say occur this way because some of these aren’t truly events that will happen per se.

 

1. Rand cannot lose a battle of self. Since Lews Therin deep down is Rand, it is impossible for Rand to take over himself. If Rand were to “lose” a battle of self, he would instead realize that nothing has happened -- that Lews Therin has been a construct all this time.

 

2. Without some of the key aspects of Lews Therin, the personality will be no more. As I explained above, without the emotional “core” that is Lews Therin, there will no longer be a need for him.

 

3. The “removal” of Lews Therin will be spurred by Cadsuane. What Cadsuane will teach Rand, and all the Asha’man, is laughter and tears, that he is still human. Whether this will be an intended result of Cadsuane’s teaching, I have no true opinion on. I can see it occurring perfectly fine that Cadsuane teaches Rand and the Asha’man that they are human for no other reason than she thinks it’s right, rather than she is teaching him this intending to “remove” Lews Therin.

 

4. Moiraine’s return will be one of the central, if not the central, points to Cadsuane doing this. Moiraine’s return will almost surely cause the litany in Rand to be useless as I have pointed out above.

 

5. Semirhage’s comments will be shown to be overall misleading, and meant to cause damage to Rand and his followers. As I pointed out above, I do believe some of her comments to be true, but that the truth of some portions is meant to give greater importance to the lies contained.

 

So that is in effect why Lews Therin is a construct of Rand’s.

 

 

[warriordragon]

I'm going to have to think about this one for a while...;)

[Mr Ares]

Luckers stated nothing of the kind, and all the evidence indicates this is wrong. LTT is not a construct. He is a real person. The fact that his memories and personality have seeped through into Rand is a bad thing, as this is, so we are told, a rare form of madness, and descent into terminal madness can be abrupt. Rand shouldn't even have those memories, that they are even there is a bad sign.

I misquoted Luckers...for that I apologize.

Apologize to Luckers, not me. Or face the consequences.

However, all of the evidence if actually read does indeed show that LTT is a construct created by Rand's subconsious.

No, it doesn't.

Yes, Rand does indeed get real memories across the barrier that separates past lives from his current incarnation.  This fact is not in dispute.  Otherwise he would not have all the knowledge of the Forsaken, AoL, new weaves, the ability to draw, etc.  Memories do not make a real person nor are they a personality. Rand has created this LTT persona to explain to himself how he can do these things and also as an outlet for his emotions that he has been walling himself off from.

False

 

As for "we are told this is a very bad thing". Yes we are told this by Semi who hardly has any reason to be completely truthful, especially considering she is a prisoner and coincidentally since she prides herself on her ability of tearing people down mentally.  As RJ would have said. "And you believe Ishy?!?"

Ishy is a lying liar who lies, Semi is deceitful bitch, true, but she will tell the truth if it will benefit her more than a lie would. 

How better to destroy loyalty to Rand among his closest followers than to say that he is about to completely lose it and go insane killing everyone ala LTT.

Let Rand continue to show them what a crazy guy he is, and remove Cadsuane's influence. People will believe Rand being crazyu when they see it, but they might deny what a Chosen says merely becasue of the source. And these are Rand's most loyal and closest followers, and therefore the ones that have greatest access to Rand, and so quite possibly the ones least likely to take what Semi says over what they have seen of Rand - so the best thing to do is let him damage his own cause. 

That is the one thing most of them fear will happen and have been ignoring since they knew he was the Dragon.

But they won't just say "she said it so it must be true", they will say he acts like a crazy man, and she said it, so it may be true. We say it fits with the evidence, and she cites a reliable source, and so is the most likely explanation.

 

Rand shouldn't even have those memories, that they are even there is a bad sign.

 

He has them because the barrier between his past lives has been weakened by extensive channeling of tainted Saidin first by his use of Callandor in the Stone and then by using the Choedan Kal twice (once at Rhuidean with his battle with Asmo, and again at the cleansing).

The taint causes madness, and we are told this is a form of madness - ever heard of Occam's Razor? 

If you go back and reread from FoH to the pres. that his LTT memories get stronger the longer and greater he channels and the occurences when "LTT" disappears coincide with Rand actually showing his emotions himself (destroying his rooms in the Sun Palace, his times with Min etc)

The memories get stronger as time goes by? And as he channels more of the madness causing taint? WOW! Huge news, and disproves me how? As for the LTT/emotion thing, I can't remember his every appearance off the top of my head, so I shall very generously take your word for it...for now. And of course, we should never bother looking for another explanation, should we?

 

LTT is a construct created by Rand to deal with those memories and his own emotional avoidance...nothing more.  Unless of course you prefer to believe Semi.

I prefer to follow the evidence. If it leads me to a particular conclusion, then I will take that as the best one.

 

Originally Posted By Callandor on Theoryland (July 14, 2006)

 

This explains it far better and with more detail than I ever could. Enjoy!

Thank you Davian, that was very succinct, and it does at least prove your mastery of the copy and paste functions, if nothing else. Now, to savage this. At least as it is not your work, you will not be offended should when I give insult to the windbag that wrote this. <The original post has been edited to make it readable>

 

Lews Therin is a Construct

 

<cut out irrelevant waffling>

Terms: I find this best to do this now because people will get, and have gotten before, very confused with the words commonly used. These are what I mean by the following terms and uses.

 

Lews Therin: Was Dragon, now voice, refer to voice unless stated otherwise, 20 more lines of waffle. MMMMMM waffles.

 

Lews Therin is *real*: Theory that voice is real person

 

Lews Therin is a construct: theory that voice is created by Rand

 

Lews Therin is a partial construct, partial real person: possible answer left out by original author, idiot.

 

Personality: I use a very simple definition. A personality is the summation of memories. I usually wonder why people would object to this, but I am continually surprised what people will argue against, even if it makes their job easier anyway.

OK, so a personality is a summation of memories...and we know that the memories are LTT's, so it is a summation of LTT's memories, but is somehow not his personality. OK, someone didn't think that one through. I think I was just proved right..........Oh, you want more?!?! lousy bunch of ingrates... Doesn't this disagree with you, young Davian? (I'm a century old, give or take, don't complain about being called young unless you're in your eighties at least). Specifically, this:

Memories do not make a real person nor are they a personality.

DID YOU NOT READ THIS BEFORE YOU POSTED IT? IT JUST DISAGREED WITH YOU AND YOU DIDN'T NOTICE!

 

Above are the two main views: LTT=real or LTT=construct. Maybe just a figment of Rand being crazy, but no-one believes that. Real knowledge proves this wrong.

<Problem? Semi said so, I disagre, blah blah.> as I will detail <in great detail>.

 

Pre-assumptions:

 

1. LTT dead. FACT

2. Reborn as Rand. FACT

3. Time keeps moving forward. FACT

 

4. The barrier degradation theory holds true. By this I mean that for every soul that is reborn in a new life, there is a barrier placed between that new life and the previous incarnation. With sufficient amount the taint can break down this barrier, and allow memories from the previous incarnation to seep into the new life. Also, the taint works on two different levels: the degradation of the barrier and the general taint madness. They come from the same source (the taint obviously), but effect people separately.

I'm not arguing that the "barrier degradation theory" holds true - at least, not quite. Taint causes madness (or more accurately, acts as a catalyst for mental instability). We are told Rand has a rare kind of madness (his mind went unstable in a very unusual way, and that tore down the barrier, and the Taint acted as the catalyst to make his mind unstable)

 

<3 facts, 1 theory, live with it. Theory has measure of fact in it. Will address people with problems later, after more droning on. Remember problem & definitions.>

 

Abstract:

 

<Lot of waffle, Rand channeled Tainted saidin, and guess what? Went crazy! What a shock.>

 

Once this started, it's easy to believe this was very awkward for Rand <NO sh*t Sherlock>. Suddenly he knew things he should not know, and was remembering things he did not do and should not remember. These memories were suppressed by Rand, consciously and subconsciously; think of it as one of the most basic defense mechanisms. Throughout the series, Rand has also suppressed more and more his emotions in a need to be harder to be the Dragon Reborn as he sees it. It depends on the person whether to divide the simple stress of being the Dragon Reborn from the suppression of emotions, as well.<GET TO THE POINT!!!>

 

Rand has 2 personalities and calls other LTT. This second personality, while based off of genuine memories from Lews Therin, is nevertheless a construct made by Rand. Since this personality is based off of genuine memories of Rand's past life, these memories have fleshed out the personality, but the core of Lews Therin is truly Rand. When Lews Therin talks in Rand's mind, it is really Rand talking to himself; Lews Therin's emotions are really Rand's.

Now hang on. We are given a definition of a personality as an accumulation of memories, essentially we are a net result of our past. But these memories are LTT's memories, and the past is his, but the personality arising from this particular accumulation of (LTT's) memories is, despite being LTT for all intents and purposes, only a construct of Rand's. If you provide a bloody definition, flaming well stick to it, unless you have reason to change. LTT's memories are what make this LTT's personality. Provide another definition or f*ck off

 

Some people argue that because I believe Rand has genuine memories from Lews Therin that I believe his personality is in Rand's head. This would be true if Rand had all of Lews Therin's memories in his head. I do not believe he does; Rand's barrier may be degraded, but it's not completely gone (nor will it be, since the taint is now gone). There isn't a part and parceling of this.

So this is, at least in part, LTT's personality, because these are his memories, but he is still a construct of Rand's??? USE YOUR BLOODY DEFINITION!!! Oh, and the taint is a catalyst, removing the Taint removes one cause of mental instability, it does NOT make you immune from getting any worse by yourself

 

Quote:

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Q: The question is, with Rand and LTT, do they have 1 soul or 2 souls in the body?

 

A: They have 1 soul with 2 personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I cobbled together.

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Jordan didn't say Rand has one and a half personalities -- there are two in his head. Either he's got Lews Therin's entire personality in his head (meaning he has all his memories again), or he's received a few memories from Lews Therin, and created the personality on his own off the basis of those real memories.

 

I want to make it perfectly clear once again. Genuine memories from Lews Therins life entered into Rands mind. Rand constructed Lews Therin off of the basis of those memories to deal with them.

A personality is the summation of memories. USE YOR DEFINITION. LTT's memories, so the personality is his

Hence why Lews Therin is a construct made by RandI'm an idiot who didn't read my own sodding definition of personality before I started posting this overlong crap. With that settled, I will now show why I believe this, and specifically how this works. Before I do that, I want to make one final thing clear: this is not everything in line of evidence. I've had to reduce so much in this theory already <I find that hard to believe>, and there are multitudes of examples of just about everything that I present here. The only reasons that I do not present this in full is that I can't be bothered.

 

General points:

 

My first question is if Lews Therin is real, how is he there? Remember, Lews Therin is dead. He's been dead for 3500+ years. The answer I generally have heard is my own: the barrier between Rand's past and present life has degraded and Lews Therin has come in. See what I mean about taking aspects of Lews Therin being a construct and using them when it suits?

That doesn't make him a construct, that means his personality came through. And as his memory did come through, and as a personality is a summation of memories.....Am I really the only person that gets the idea that Mr Callandor never bothered reading this crap?

 

But this sadly does not answer the question. Do personalities survive death? Writer says no. If they can, how was he reactivated? By entering head of DR? By what? Rand? Which, from what I read of it, means that it's really Rand activating Lews Therin -- almost like saying a glove isn't activated unless there's a hand inside of it <bad metaphor, LTT has a mind of his own, a glove doesn't>. But doesn't that just make Lews Therin an immediate construct? <Doesn't it just mean someone hit the on switch and left him running?> Without Rand, he's a dead unactivated, essentially, shell.<No, the shell (body) is what he lacks, not what he is> It's all Rand's work that he's going again. It's like a puppet without the puppeteer with his hand inside the puppet <another bad metaphor>; the puppet isn't a real person when activated by the puppeteer -- it's just a construct being manipulated.

But the LTT construct is more than just a puppet being manipulated, he is capable of independant thought, if not action (and has demonstrated action before). The writer uses poor metaphors here, as they do not accurately sum up what LTT is, and what he can do. LTT is more like a self aware computer virus that needs a computer to work in. Rand is the computer, his mind is another sapient program. Rand is not responsible for this virus being given room to run, and even if it is a construct (one could make the argument all our personalities are) then it is not *Rand's* construct

 

<More irrelevant crap deleted. Taint causes mental instability, past life voices (PLVs) are a rare kind of instability>

So I feel the question becomes not how a dead man became alive again, but what can come from a dead man that need not be alive at all. The answer is very simple: his memories. Memories are neither alive nor dead; theyre simply data.<And our personalities are a summation of that data, so LTT's memories make him a summationof those memories Rand has, so he is at least part of the original LTT>

 

<Load of irrelevant stuff about LTT ebbing deleted, you're not missing anything> My third question becomes when was the real Lews Therin there? We know when Lews Therin first speaks:<quotes about LTT remembering Ilyena (FOH), and saying Lanfear loved power (TSR), and saying now in Rand's head before weaving something Rand had no idea how to do (TSR), all in no particular order>If these are examples of what will eventually be Lews Therin, is Lews Therin really there or is he not at these points?

His memories are, so he is - or some of them are, so some of him is

If you think Lews Therin is real, the point where he first appears must be where he's in Rand's head. But then how does one explain these prior incidents, if Lews Therin was not there until later?

He was there in that first instance, in one form or another, Mr Strawman

Again, there is no parceling of this. Either Lews Therin is all there and real, or only parts of him are.

And those parts aren't real? Unless Rand made those parts that are there, unless no part of him is real, then he is at least partly real. He is only completely a construct if rand made all of him, or he could be part and part, they are not mutually exclusive states. Furthermore, if some of LTT's memories are there....and if you actually read your own definition of a personality...I hope everyone sees where I am going.

If only parts of him are, how is it that it's the real Lews Therin? So, does he appear in these incidents of The Shadow Rising? Or is it in The Fires of Heaven when he first speaks? Or is it at a later time even still? Or is he never all there at all?

He speaks in TSR. He said "Now". And if parts of his memories are there, then parts of him are there, so he is there as of his first word, if not before, and seriously, did anyone read this? Am I the first?

 

My fourth question is linked to the above one. If you believe Lews Therin is real, he has to all be there.<Why, Captain Strawman, why?> All his memories, all his habits, all his emotions, all his thoughts, etc.<Why?> If this is true, how is it that Rand is still receiving memories?<He's not all there by that point...maybe his memory isn't a homogenous mass, and so the personality that is a summation of said memories isn't either> All of it should be in his head <WHY?>-- because the real Lews Therin is in his head in completion.<Eventually.> <More irrelevant crap that I disagree with, and shite about barriers, it's really dull>

My fifth question is linked yet again to those above, and is the driving point of asking the ones above really. If Lews Therin is real, how come he appears slowly, gradually, more and more, in Rands head?

Why shouldn't he? Why exactly should LTT come in whole, and why can't just part of him appear, at least untill he is all there....it starts off as just a memory here and there, and from them coalesces (did I spell that right?) the personality of LTT....because he is the summation of memories, and because I actually read this idiots definition of a personality, even if he didn't.

 

 

<More irrelevant quotes, more failure to understand his own definition, more crap, a complete failure to understand that LTT is not a Warder bond, hard concept though that might be to grasp, and so might behave differently to one, more inability to realize that if his memories only come to Rand bit by bit then so will his personality, and a continued unquestioning belief that it all ahs to come at once to be real, and no evidence of Rand constructing anything, even after all this time, when it is supposed to be about LTT being a construct of Rand's. Who thought this was a good idea to inflict on the good people of Dragonmount?>

 

Rand's Suppression of Emotions:

 

To truly begin <you took your bloody time>, we should start at the earliest thing: stress. <snip> DR is tressful job. Going back to the stress element, once Rand began to accept and eventually did accept that he was the Dragon Reborn, he did a very foolish thing: he made it out to be something far greater than it is.<you realise you're supposed to tell us how? And how can it be greater than I'm prophesied to save the world?><Cut quote from TSR, showing Rand after bubble of evil, remembering who he was>Rand began to see his role and himself as essentially two different things. Rand the nice and kind shepherd from the Two Rivers; the Dragon Reborn the hard/strong (at least in Rand's mind) being that does what must be done.

So remembering who you used to be makes you 2 different people? I'm not convinced. You may well go from being a tough guy at work to being a nice guy at home. Not quite the same thing as crazy Rand, now is it? He had a job to do, and so bacame the person necessary to complete that task (so he thought), but the problem is he went to far.

<Rand supressed emotions that he saw as weak, quote from 5 books later to demonstrate, after massive exposure to Taint and so madness to be expected under the cicumstances>

 

Quote from Winter's Heart 32, A Portion of Wisdom:

 

That is not the reason! Lews Therin shouted, forcing past Rand's efforts to shut him up. You are afraid! If the sickness takes you while you are trying to use the access ter'angreal, it could kill you, or worse! It could kill us all! he moaned.

 

Wine slopped over Rand's wrist, soaking his coatsleeve, and he loosened his grip on the winecup. The thing had not been in true round to begin with, and he did not think he had bent it enough to be noticed. He was not afraid! He refused to let fear touch him. Light, he had to die, eventually. He had accepted that.

 

 

<cut along dotted line...>Rand suppresses emotions, quote from WH 25, Bonds to illustrate:

Rand thought that should frighten him, or make him angry, but he simply sat and played while Lews Therin wept.

 

 

LTT doesn't suppress emotion. Lews Therin just so happens to express on nearly every occasion he stirs the emotion(s) that Rand is suppressing and has been suppressing. Just why would a real, separate, and independent personality just seem to be an expression of Rand's own emotions? Why would Lews Therin seem to be the output for Rand's emotions? The very fact that there is even a tenuous series of instances where this occurs should bring immediate doubt to the notion that there is no link between the two. And, as we shall see, this link is anything but tenuous.

Operative word in bold. What about all those times that LTT screams about killing Demandred, or any male channeler, while near Taim/Asha'men? Is Rand suppressing a desire to kill his followers? He knows they are dangerous, if they go crazy, he doesn't suppress that, he just carries on anyway. And a tenuous connection, or even a stronger connection, is not proof, or there could be another explanation - but what we have seen from LTT matches a real person. Furthermore, we have seen the memories of LTT are real, and a personality is.....a summation of memories. So, by the definition we are using here, LTT IS REAL, EVEN IF HE DOES MATCH RAND'S SUPPRESSED EMOTIONS!!!

 

<Rand suppresses memories, memories  contain feelings, blah blah blah. Author didn't check his own definition, LTT's memories came accross but his personality didn't even though we are defining a personality as a summation of memories, what is this guy on, blah blah blah, uses Birgitte as an example even though she is a completely integrated set of memories in one personality, uses Mat as an example despite his memories being integrated seamlessly into his personality while Rand's aren't, not realising that this is a bad example. All Birgitte's memories were a part of her from the start, all Mat's memories were blended in - his own personality remained separate, and these others just exist as memories. Rand suffers from a rare form of madness, which causes real ersonalities to come into being, Rand is crazy, Rand channeled Tainted saidin, which can cause madness, Mat didn't, you sort of see the connections, and why ot all makes sense, and why it is different to Mat, but the writer of this rubbish doesn't, and just keeps on talking, good job I'm here, thinks we need it pointing out Rand learns new weaves from LTT, or some Old Tongue even, still needs it pointing out that maybe, just maybe, not all of LTT's memories are there for Rand, is an idiot spouting irrelevant bo**ocks, you should all thank me for this, now you don't have to read it, and there's some crap about barriers as well.>This is one of the key reasons why I object to how people explain that Lews Therin is real, is always there, and can utilize all his experiences. By that logic, Rand has had all of Lews Therin's memories and knowledge enter into his head. People will then say that Rand cannot utilize Lews Therin's knowledge all the time. This is pure nonsense. These memories are entering into Rand's head. They'll say that they're behind the barrier between Rand and Lews Therin. This is even further nonsense.

Wrong, O Erector of Strawmen, "they" will say that not all of LTT's memories are in Rand's head, nor do they all need to be, but as these memories are no integrated with Rand's own, then the personality that is the summation of these memories will exist, not because he is a construct of Rand's, but because he is a bunch of loose ends that need tying up.

 

<More stuff about barriers and Rand suppressing stuff>This suppression just creates a need to express them if Rand will not accept them of his own. Lews Therin is an expression of Rand's needs in this manner.

I can live with that. But what does that make him? We have the (almost) complete memories of LTT in Rand's head, kept separate from his own, and a personality is? If Rand had accepterd the memories as his, then maybe he would be OK. Maybe. But as he didn't, and as we have a bunch of memories, and we are using your definition of a personality, and we are not idiots, we can see how LTT might just be real - or even part construct, part reality.

 

<Load of quotes showing LTT knows what Rand is thinking by a guy who has never heard the word "brevity", load of quotes showing people know what they are thinking, idiot who wrote this forgets that LTT IS IN RAND'S HEAD, and that this just might allow him to know what Rand is thinking, more shite>

Look, to make all this really, really, really, F*CKING simple, let me spell it out:

1.Taint causes mental instability, what laymen may term madness

2.Rand is exposed to Taint

3.Rand displays signs of being mentally unstable, while maintaining functionality

4.Rand has a voice and personality and a bunch of memories in his head that are not his, that belong to LTT

5.Rand was LTT

6.We are told that there is a rare kind of madness (mental instability, if you prefer) that permits the personalities and memories of past lives to come into the minds of current incarnations

All this together, and you would harldy think LTT is real is an unwarranted conclusion, unless you think with your arse as well as talking out of it. If you were then told that 6 may be a lie, and yet it fits what you know, why would you refuse to accept it as truth unless you had contradictory EVIDENCE? Of course, if we define a personality as a summation of memories, and find Rand in possession of a bunch of unintegrated memories not his own, then why would we be surprised when a personality that corresponds to those memories arises? Maybe Rand could have avoided having those fragments of memory floating loose, and tried to integrate them, maybe not, maybe LTT is partly a construct of Rand's subconcious, a desire for these memories to remain "not his", and a way to deal with the emotion that he suppresses, but that still leaves LTT as in a large part real, and I see no evidence to the contrary. So LTT is real - at least in part. It fits the evidence.

 

Unfortunately, that's not all, there are still 2 posts, presumably just as full of crap, and I will deal with them when I can. If other people can refrain from posting from the time being, then I could keep all my reply together...but I may also feel that none of this is worthwhile, and just go and kill myself. A very exiting prospect to all those who hate me - keep quiet and I may die!

[Davian93]

Apologize to Luckers, not me. Or face the consequences.

 

~shivers~  Oh no, not consequences.  What would the great Luckers do to me???  I'd better run now and hide. 

 

Seriously though Ares, if you want to engage in an actual debate with logic and quoting of the material, that's fine.  If you wish to engage in personal attacks and blathering on like a 12 year old, feel free. I will participate in the former but that the latter.

 

The taint causes madness, and we are told this is a form of madness - ever heard of Occam's Razor? 

 

Actually, yes I have heard of it.  You forget that this is not the first time I've ever posted on a discussion board. We are told by Semi, who has every reason to not be truthful.  She is a manipulative conniving person who is trying to take support away from Rand.  Like any good liar, she mixes in truth but is ultimately misleading.  But we already know all this about her...or would you have me reference the BWB to you?

 

Thank you Davian, that was very succinct, and it does at least prove your mastery of the copy and paste functions, if nothing else. Now, to savage this. At least as it is not your work, you will not be offended should when I give insult to the windbag that wrote this. <The original post has been edited to make it readable

 

Pot, Kettle, Black.  Where were you?

 

Instead of redoing all the work, yes I will reference an already completed and well-researched theory on the matter that I happen to agree with.(and I am hardly alone in this)  I do believe in actually referencing the text and interviews to prove a point.

 

OK, so a personality is a summation of memories...and we know that the memories are LTT's, so it is a summation of LTT's memories, but is somehow not his personality. OK, someone didn't think that one through. I think I was just proved right..........Oh, you want more?!?! lousy bunch of ingrates... Doesn't this disagree with you, young Davian? (I'm a century old, give or take, don't complain about being called young unless you're in your eighties at least).

 

 

To help you understand, since I know that older people oftentimes suffer from decreased brain activity, answer this question: Does a person who suffers from amnesia still have a personality?  You answered Yes I assume.  Therefore memories DO NOT make the personality.  While Rand may have the memories of LTT, he created the personality all on his own.

 

All this together, and you would harldy think LTT is real is an unwarranted conclusion, unless you think with your arse as well as talking out of it. If you were then told that 6 may be a lie, and yet it fits what you know, why would you refuse to accept it as truth unless you had contradictory EVIDENCE? Of course, if we define a personality as a summation of memories, and find Rand in possession of a bunch of unintegrated memories not his own, then why would we be surprised when a personality that corresponds to those memories arises? Maybe Rand could have avoided having those fragments of memory floating loose, and tried to integrate them, maybe not, maybe LTT is partly a construct of Rand's subconcious, a desire for these memories to remain "not his", and a way to deal with the emotion that he suppresses, but that still leaves LTT as in a large part real, and I see no evidence to the contrary. So LTT is real - at least in part. It fits the evidence.

 

Yes...the memories are real. The rest is created by Rand to explain why he has them. If LTT is real, why is he never there when Rand's emotions are out of control? Why does he show up when Rand is holding everything in?

[lou]

this has gotten fairly heated.

LTT was there at the wells when rand burst out of the box, actually LTT showed rand how to break the sheild. LTT was with rand when he severed the AS.

LTT was there to show rand how to weave deathgates.

these were fairly stressful and emotional moments for rand, and LTT was there.

for myself, it is the active interaction that makes LTT more real and less construct. he provides information known only to LTT and shows rand some pretty nifty and useful tricks that rand may otherwise have never been able to think of. many of the weaves taught by LTT to rand have not been seen since the war of power.