Retarded Myrdraal?

[PerrinFtw]

Ok so have just started my third re-read and in Baerlon, Rand is confronted by a myrdraal, man to man, in the inn.

 

My question is why the myrdraal didn't kill Rand, during the later books:

 

*SPOILERS*

 

the DO puts so much effort into trying to kill Rand...

 

Why didn't the myrdraal just kill him and run off rather than stopping his knife an inch before Rand's forehead...

 

 

Puzzled, cheers in advance.

[Papermache]

Ba'alzamon (Ishmael) knew one of the boys was to be the Dragon Reborn, and wanted the one that was to be, in this case Rand, to come to the shadow and fight for it. It was not until much later that the Dark One actually started trying to kill Rand.

[Guest silver89]

You stole the words from my mouth, Papermache. But you are right. :)

[PerrinFtw]

Ye but surely with the Dragon Reborn out of the equation, the DO could rinse randland without some puppet dragon?

 

 

[DemandredFO]

Well Ishamael wasn't exactly a shining example of sanity.  I remember a Forsaken saying that Elan Morin said that the DO would not kill the Dragon so that's the real answer I think.  Of course, if this were real then yes, you would want to kill the Dragon.  However, I just thought of something, Shai'tan wanted chaos, and rand certainly caused chaos.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Myrddraal was not retarded.  As others have pointed out, Ishamael surely would have killed any Myrddraal who killed Rand at that point.

 

Is Ishy retarded?  Insane, certainly.

 

The one I think is retarded is the Dark One.  Unless I find out a really good reason that the Dark One can't win without turning the Dragon, then Shai'tan is a big time retard for not ordering Rand's death.  Even as late as TPoD, a concerted attack by the living Forsaken would have done for Rand.

[Cybertrolloc]

The one I think is retarded is the Dark One.  Unless I find out a really good reason that the Dark One can't win without turning the Dragon, then Shai'tan is a big time retard for not ordering Rand's death.  Even as late as TPoD, a concerted attack by the living Forsaken would have done for Rand.

It works better for me that there is a reason the Shadow needs to keep Rand alive. But I don't think that's the case from say what Ishy and Dem tell the Ashamen that are headed to Far Madding. I'd can't really fault RJ for not having this fully planned out in the early books...

[Papermache]

I don't think the dark one can touch the world so directly. Yes he can change the weather, resurrect the dead, and give access to the true source. But is he much more powerful than that? In any case, if he was that powerful, he was 90% sealed away and couldn't do much more than affect the weather. AND, I do not believe he wants to see the world destroyed, rather than it in the hands of the shadow.

[TowerOfRavens]

There is a chapter I think with Sammeal and Greanadel, where they are talking about Ishy. Anyway Ishy has a theory that this war has been fought many times between the creators champion and the DO. Sometimes it was more important to the DO to turn the Creators Champion then to destroy the planet. Possibly some of the other foresaken had been Champions until the DO had got his hands on them and now they are spit out to serve him. Any way this is why the myrdraal does not kill Rand and why Ishy wants to turn him.

[Theandrin]

I always got the impression that the DO wanted "bragging" rights. I thought that the DO wanted to keep Rand alive to see if he could turn him to the shadow. Only by the time he finally realized that he couldn't, Rand was to powerful and under to much protection.

 

I personally think that was a bad idea to begin with. There was to much chance that Rand would not turn, so IMO they should have just killed him in the beginning. However, I can understand the statement that the DO wanted to make to the world. "I turned the dragon reborn, now bow to me." Or something along those lines.

[Papermache]

If the DO could touch the world as directly as people are assuming, Rand would be destroyed in a heartbeat. It wouldn't be a hammer to his rooms, it would be a HUGE hammer to his palace, or to Caemlyn, or wherever Rand might be. Lanfear specifies than with Rand and herself using the Choedan Kal, they could challenge the DO himself. Seeing as Callandor can destroy cities, and the Choedan Kal are much more powerful, and there are two of them. That means the DO would be EXTREMELY powerful. So assuming that he has that kind of power, he could easily kill Rand himself, with the twitch of his finger. It is with this, that I believe that there are some kind of rules, or some such, that prevent the DO and the Creator from touching the world directly.

[Seriodor]

The DO could destroy the city, country, or ,heck, even the continent that Rand was on... if he could touch the the world completely, but because of the seals on his prison, he is unable to expand the bore enough for more than the slightest of his power to reach through. and as to the topic, i think that with the Dragon Reborn being the most powerful male channeler of any of the ages, him working for the shadow would leave the world defenseless.

[lou]

the DO could not touch the world directly at this point in the story. but he could have ordered the hit, and certainly should have.

[Vambram]

Perhaps the DO is bound against certain actions or ordering certain actions by the Wheel or by the Creator. Or, perhaps the DO desired to turn Rand (the Dragon) to the Shadow, forcing him to become a forsaken, thinking by doing so that the DO could use the Dragon to defeat the Creator in such an ultimate manner so that the Pattern of this fictional world is forced under evil, with little evidence of good at all left in the world for several millenia?

 

These are just thoughts and suggestions of mine while trying to figure out what evil thoughts and desires are in the almost impossible to fully comprehend mind of the D.O.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

It works better for me that there is a reason the Shadow needs to keep Rand alive.

 

That would work better for me too ... I just can't see what it is.  Ishamael did eventually try to kill him, using the True Power ... I don't think the Dark One would have let that happen if there was no way to win without Rand.  And in matters of the True Power, the Dark One did and does have total control.

 

To respond to several others at once, yes, I know that the Dark One is restricted in the way that he can touch the world.  Lou got my intention right: I don't mean that Shai'tan should have killed him personally, but he should have ordered his minions to do it.  Heck, if Shaidar Haran can do to Rand's channeling ability the same thing that he can do to the Forsakens', then he should have had SH take him out.

 

As for the arguments that the DO wanted "bragging rights" or anything like that, well ... that may well be true, but it would still be retarded, to me.  Without the Dragon, according to prophecy, the Light's chances fall to 0%.  I'll take a victory over bragging rights any day.

[CUBAREY]

You guys obviously are reading WOL in a vaccum,  in christian theology satan tempts Jesus in the wilderness. In several other religions the dark one does the same to the messiah.  Turning the appointed savior to the dark would be as great, or greater, an acomplishment then winning the last battle. RJ was mirroring these religous myths.

 

Moreover, the DO has never ordered Rand killed, it was certain of the forsaken who ordered his death.  Lastly, Ishy was crazy but acting rationally in trying to turn Rand (see above discussion)

[Luckers]

Well there is the issue that our eye into this world is limited to this turning. We don't actually know even the remotest reality of the Dark Ones position on the subject of Rands soul. Deductively we know that after many many turnings the Dragon soul has defeated the Dark One many times. It could be that he has a whole lot more to gain by turning Rand than he has to lose by having Rand alive. Indeed, it seems it must be so, since he acts on precisely that.

 

Morover, we dont actually know that Rand death would mean instant success for the Shadow. We have no idea just how long it would take to actually widen the bore enough to free the Dark One, indeed, that thought provides much suggestive evidence as to why the Dark One even care to defeat the light--why not just hold them off whilst he gains his freedom, after all the status quo at the moment is clearly in favour of the Shadow. Yet here we have the Shadow being the constant protagonist. Why?

 

So even if Rand is killed this time round, and the Shadow wins Tarmon Gai'don... does that mean that the Light is done for? The characters certainly believe it, yet the Dark One, who is the only figure to actually have some objective idea, seems to be acting under an entirely different mindset.

 

 

Cubarey... WOL?

 

And beyond that... really? You think RJ entired such a dramatically influential plot line simply because the christians think it happened with Jesus. Please.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It could be that he has a whole lot more to gain by turning Rand than he has to lose by having Rand alive.  Indeed, it seems it must be so, since he acts on precisely that.

 

Or he could just be retarded.

 

Morover, we dont actually know that Rand death would mean instant success for the Shadow.

 

Well, the prophecies certainly seem to imply it ...

 

"When the winds of Tarmon Gai'don scour the earth, he will face the Shadow and bring forth Light again in the world."

 

"Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

 

"The blood of the Dragon Reborn on the rocks of Shayol Ghul will free mankind from the Shadow."

 

"His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man's salvation."

 

"There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land."  (Implication: Dragon dies, land dies)

 

Certainly Min's viewings of the sparks and the darkness (TEoTW ch 15, LoC ch 41) imply that not only is Rand required, but at least one of the other ta'veren (Mat or Perrin) is required for a draw, and that all three are needed for a victory.

 

I know you believe that no one is truly irreplacable ... but that does not seem to be the case here.  Given the information we have, Rand's death = game over.

 

Now ... if new information comes to light in AMoL ... well, then obviously I would have to reassess the situation.  But I honestly don't envision anything like that.

[Luckers]

They all speak of what Rand can do for the Light in this turning. Ever occur to you that the Dark One has more in mind than this turning?

 

But more to the point, none of them say that Rand's death means instant success for the Shadow. All of them except Min's speak of what Rand's life and death mean to the light, and Min's may not even refer to the Light, but rather to the wait of the threat pitted against our group of heroes specifically.

 

It all comes down to the fact that if the Dark One could gain complete victory by killing Rand, he would have, and could have had it done. Your argument that he is stupid seems incredibly unlikely. Oh, he may be alien, and chaotic, and paradoxical in nature, yet even with that he displays a degree of practical self-interest.

 

To me, the most logical idea is that it will take a long time for the bore to be widened to such a stage that he can escape. Generations. As such the Dark One has much more to gain from turning the Dragon Soul than killing it in this turning and and having to deal with it again down the line. After all, even should the Shadow win Tarmon Gai'don, that only means that Randland has fallen. They would then attack into other lands, much as Graendal shows in her thoughts about Shara, yet humanity could easily hold on and come to resist the Shadow again later in the game.

 

The fact is that your making these deductions based on human knowledge and belief specific to this particular confrontation between Light and Shadow, whilst the Dark One will be reacting to and planning for other encounters.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Ever occur to you that the Dark One has more in mind than this turning?

 

Well, if his plan is as it seems to be, ie, the breaking of the Wheel, then I would say no, he doesn't.

 

But more to the point, none of them say that Rand's death means instant success for the Shadow. All of them except Min's speak of what Rand's life and death mean to the light, and Min's may not even refer to the Light, but rather to the wait of the threat pitted against our group of heroes specifically.

 

You are correct that the words, "If Rand al'Thor dies before the proper time, the Dark One wins" are not specifically stated in prophecy.  But to deny that such is the sense of the prophecies as a whole ... thats a bit much.

 

To me, the most logical idea is that it will take a long time for the bore to be widened to such a stage that he can escape. Generations.

 

I'm sorry, but that does not seem to be the case at all.  The way he's interacting with the world, changing global weather, rippling reality, making time itself less stable (the dead walking, the physical world changing to previous states of temporal arrangement, etc), the focus points of the Seals visibly crumbling ... he's on the verge of breaking out on his own.

 

And even if it took "Generations", so what?  He's been waiting for about 3500 plus years, just since the Bore was made in this turning.  And potentially billions before that.  If he's being logical, then waiting a couple hundred more in exchange for certain victory makes sense.  And if he isn't being logical, well, then he's being retarded.

 

It all comes down to the fact that if the Dark One could gain complete victory by killing Rand, he would have, and could have had it done.

 

Thats simply an assumption.  You assume he isn't an idiot.  I'm saying his actions indicate otherwise.

 

I'm sorry, but the best way to win a fight is to kill your enemy.  It might not seem elegant sometimes, but it does have the charm of being very effective.

 

Let me take this a step further.  Even assuming, for argument's sake, that the Light could still win with Rand dead.  Certainly his loss would weaken their position a great deal.  So, even if Rand's death isn't an instant "game over" for the Light, it still makes sense for Shai'tan to order his death.

 

The only circumstance in which the path which has been pursued makes sense is if the Dark One has to convert Rand to win.  And given Ishamael's actions, using the True Power, at the end of TDR, that does not seem to be the case.

[CUBAREY]

Luckers

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Luckers:  You miss the point.  An attempt to turn the messiah figure is a part of the mythalogy of many religions not just christianity.  Damn right RJ was aware of this and incorporated it into his story line.  Not to copy a tenenet of christianity or any religion but because it is a general tenent in many religions and the motivation of the DO in all is the same.  for Rand to kneal to the Do would not only assure the DO's victory but would show that the DO was superior to the Creator.  AND its this last point that the DO really wants acknowledged.

 

Yia it would have been simpler and less risky for the DO to simply kill Rand but his victory over the creator would be lessened.  THe DO wants total victory not just a victory on points.  Moreover, if DO followed your concept of rationality WOT would have been a two hundred page novel.  Send 100,000 trollocs and a few hundred fades into the Two Rivers at the beginning, kill everyone and the DO wins.  For, if anything is clear in the prophecies its that Rand may not be sufficent in and of himself for the light to triumph but he is neccesary for that triumph. Kill Rand early and the DO wins. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Luckers]

Quote

Ever occur to you that the Dark One has more in mind than this turning?

 

 

Well, if his plan is as it seems to be, ie, the breaking of the Wheel, then I would say no, he doesn't.

 

Really? And your including the fact that if that is his end goal he has had it in every turning? And, naturally, im sure you concidered the fact that as an end goal it may not be the goal of the end of this turning. Because God forbid breaking the wheel take time and effort.

 

 

 

You are correct that the words, "If Rand al'Thor dies before the proper time, the Dark One wins" are not specifically stated in prophecy.  But to deny that such is the sense of the prophecies as a whole ... thats a bit much.

 

Really... why?

 

I'm sorry, but that does not seem to be the case at all.  The way he's interacting with the world, changing global weather, rippling reality, making time itself less stable (the dead walking, the physical world changing to previous states of temporal arrangement, etc), the focus points of the Seals visibly crumbling ... he's on the verge of breaking out on his own.

 

Actually he's on the verge of breaking the seals. As far as we actually know that merely leaves him the same access as he had in the Age of Legends, which is far from 'breaking out on his own'.

 

Indeed, the fact that during the course of the one hundred and ten years in which the bore was open he did not break out 'on his own' shows that it requires a little time and effort. The fact that the Light managed to deny the Shadow the ability to widen the bore (the percipitating event of the War of the Shadow) merely reinforces it.

 

And even if it took "Generations", so what?  He's been waiting for about 3500 plus years, just since the Bore was made in this turning.  And potentially billions before that.  If he's being logical, then waiting a couple hundred more in exchange for certain victory makes sense.  And if he isn't being logical, well, then he's being retarded.

 

I'm sorry, this comment seems to support me. Perhaps im misreading it, but you seem to be saying that if prolonging the conflict would succeed in gaining the Dark One ultimate victory than obviously he would do so.

 

In what way does this support your position? If he is being logical, then obviously turning the Dragon and not having to deal with his opposition in the generations to come is much more valuable than killing this incarnation and having to deal with the dragon time and again in the generations to come.

 

Thats simply an assumption.  You assume he isn't an idiot.  I'm saying his actions indicate otherwise.

 

Actually mate, your saying that one of his specific actions indicate otherwise based on the information you have at hand.

 

Since that information is incomplete... well, you see my objection.

 

I'm sorry, but the best way to win a fight is to kill your enemy.  It might not seem elegant sometimes, but it does have the charm of being very effective.

 

Does it? I'm sure the Romans thought so before they crucified Jesus. You saw how well it worked out for them.

 

The best way to win a fight is to END your enemy. In a world with reincarnation, killing him does not serve that purpose. Turning him to your cause does.

 

Let me take this a step further.  Even assuming, for argument's sake, that the Light could still win with Rand dead.  Certainly his loss would weaken their position a great deal.  So, even if Rand's death isn't an instant "game over" for the Light, it still makes sense for Shai'tan to order his death.

 

You are still speaking in terms of this specific confrontation. I'm not saying that the Light would come out on top of this confrontation with Rand dead, but that doesn't make the Dark One victorious. In the simple fact of time and again having face the Dragon soul, and ultimately not achieving your goal, the big picture is a massive influence.

 

The only circumstance in which the path which has been pursued makes sense is if the Dark One has to convert Rand to win.  And given Ishamael's actions, using the True Power, at the end of TDR, that does not seem to be the case.

 

Well, yes, that is the only course that makes sense. Your just looking too small, and therefore concluding him a retard for following that course. The fact is that losing at the minor game, may be a worthy risk for the chance at wining at the ultimate game. And im sorry, but given the Dark One's nature with multiple weavings of the wheel at his back, you have no excuse for judging him for playing to the big picture, not the specific current game.

 

Cuberey... what the hell mate. Overuse the enter button much? I'm half tempted not to answer at all.

 

Luckers:  You miss the point.  An attempt to turn the messiah figure is a part of the mythalogy of many religions not just christianity.  Damn right RJ was aware of this and incorporated it into his story line.  Not to copy a tenenet of christianity or any religion but because it is a general tenent in many religions and the motivation of the DO in all is the same.  for Rand to kneal to the Do would not only assure the DO's victory but would show that the DO was superior to the Creator.  AND its this last point that the DO really wants acknowledged.

 

Umm... got any evidence of that?

 

As to your point about messiah figures. For starters Jesus was not the messiah figure foretold in Maccabean prophecy, and indeed never states himself as such. The Jews and Muslims are quite right in that comment, and i have no doubt Jesus himself would agree--he had no interest in politics or war.

 

Secondly, the attempt to turn or tempt the godly figure aint actually that commen. Most eatern religions deal with the personal and spiritual growth, the physical stated is accepted, not feared. Maiden Ho actually gained immortality by sleeping with one of the eight Holy Immortals. The christian ideal of sin is fairly unique--oh, each religion describes its social taboos, but in terms of the actual state of its religious figures... The dualistic nature of christian religion is unique in that. Holy figures can fall, yet the darkness gains nothing from their fall. It is a personal, not a public failure.

 

Yia it would have been simpler and less risky for the DO to simply kill Rand but his victory over the creator would be lessened.  THe DO wants total victory not just a victory on points.  Moreover, if DO followed your concept of rationality WOT would have been a two hundred page novel.  Send 100,000 trollocs and a few hundred fades into the Two Rivers at the beginning, kill everyone and the DO wins.  For, if anything is clear in the prophecies its that Rand may not be sufficent in and of himself for the light to triumph but he is neccesary for that triumph. Kill Rand early and the DO wins. 

 

Ummm... what?

 

 

Honestly now... what the hell?

[Vaped]

Here's my theory:

 

It's obvious that this scenario has played out over and over again.  Since the DO hasn't broken free and destroyed the Wheel of Time, I think it's apparent that whatever tactics he has used in the past (killing the Dragon) doesn't work.

 

I think that this is a new plan of the DO.  By corrupting the Dragon instead of outright killing him, he changes the face of the contest.  Now, he has the Light's champion on his side, and perhaps that is what he needs to finally break free and rule.

 

I can't remember if the DO has ever told anyone to kill Rand (one of the rogue Asha'man spoke to 3 people I think, Taim, Demandred, and perhaps the DO?  Can't remember...), but if he did, he perhaps realizes that corrupting Rand isn't going to work, and he'll have to try a different tactic.  Or, he's hoping that he can change other things this time around to break the cycle.  Regardless, after being trapped and freed countless times, I'm sure the DO is willing to wait another cycle to finally break free.

 

As a related theory, I wonder...I wonder if the DO's minions do not have the power to break the seals.  I wonder if Rand will be the only one able to break any of the seals prematurely.  It certainly makes corrupting him all the more important.  Breaking the seals early would give the DO a huge advantage, as opposed to having them broken when the entireity of Randland is ready for war.

[Trib4l]

IIRC, besides spreading the seals out to avoid them being all taken from one place, Rand doesn't entirely trust himself with possession. This way he can get them when he's ready, but doesn't have to worry about breaking them on one of his "rants".

[TowerOfRavens]

You all seem to be under the illusion that Rand Al'Thor's soul is the one who has been eternally fighting the shadow. Yet in the books it is postulated that the Creator has had many champions and some of those the DO has turned to his own gains. The DO cannot be destroyed and neither can the Creator, they merely play for the worlds the creator makes. Rand goes to a world that the DO has conquered. Also no where is it stated that with Rand's death the DO would win. Possibly the pattern would throw up another saviour or a convergence of powers for long enough to allow a new Champion to emerge. Also when the bore was first opened there was nothing between the DO and Lews Therin, yet the DO did not crush the world. Mat and Perrin might be manifestations of other Champions. When Ishy enters Perrins dreams and encounters the wolf. He burns it saying that he has faced this before. How could Ishy have faced it before when they did not exist in the age of legends?

 

It makes sense if this is a game of chess you don't play for the board you play to capture the others pieces.

 

Also RJ was religious and his books take from everything. The wheel of time itself is a Asian religious belief.