Sealing the Bore (questions and theroies)

[Andrew the Great]

Ok first thing; big caps could mean the creator talking but untill there is proof many are going to be skeptical, it could be a saying by LTT for all we know kinda like the sayings of shinear (sp?) "duty is heavyer than a mountain, death is lighter than a feather" we dont know if it is the creator, the DO or LTT so that route is a treatorus one.

Agreed that we don't know for sure, but I recommend that you read that particular thread. I don't remember what it was called, something about rand talking to the creator. The basic summary is that the description of the voice, vibrating his skull, etc., is nearly exactly like the description of the dark one talking to the forsaken at SG. Also, it is written in all caps, which we have only seen with the DO. Since the creator is sort of the DO's equivalant, we include him as a possibility. Rand is talking about a way to destroy Ba'alzamon, who he thinks is the DO. The dark one probably would not be saying he would not take part, since he is actively trying to get a hand in the world, so the basic idea is that its the creator.

    Granted, that's a lot of assumption, but based on what we know, it's the most plausible theory. I also recommend that you read Luckers' thread on the nature of the creator. Very good.

    Assuming that this is the creator talking, the song isn't going to summon him because he will take no part. That being said, i dont think that the song will summon him anyway as most people think the song refers to the aiel growing song thingy (myself included). I am also a firm believer that there is no need for the creator to step in, as saidin and saidar combined will (In my opinion) be able to seal the bore.

[cloglord]

I have stated the opinion elsewhere that the Pattern is perfectly capable of Healing itself, probably in a matter of instants, if the Dark One's influence is removed.  Small tears in the Pattern caused by Travelling gateways are fixed all the time, instantly.  The Bore can be compared to a wound in the fabric of the Pattern ... but as soon as it was opened, the Dark One stuck his "fingertip" into it, so that it could not close.  The seal could be compared to a band-aid that covered it, but didn't fix the problem ... and the didn't push the Dark One's "fingertip" out.

 

I have several problems with this.  First your metaphor is flawed.  RJ gave us a perfectly good metaphor for the way that creation works, it is a pattern that is woven not grown.  The pattern is not alive, and does not act like a living thing, it acts like a woven thing.  There is no reason to come up with new metaphors of healing and growing, RJ has already explained the nature of creation.  Second, Traveling is not tearing holes in the pattern, it is bringing parts of the pattern together and crossing across.  I am well aware of the descriptions of how Men travel, but consider the TP method of traveling.  If you put the two descriptions side by side it seems pretty clear that TP traveling damages the pattern, and Saidin traveling does not.  Lastly, there is a clear indication from the books tha the patter does not, "heal" itself.  Balefire causes permanent damage to the pattern, it doesn't heal over time, it doesn't fix itself.  Is the DO less dangeous to the pattern than Moraine with an Angreal?

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

The pattern is not alive, and does not act like a living thing, it acts like a woven thing.

 

Well ... since we've only seen the "Song" used to help living things grow, that objection neatly spikes your entire theory, too.

 

Look ... we disagree on this.  Lets just leave it at that.

[Wayhey]

The pattern is not alive, and does not act like a living thing, it acts like a woven thing.

 

Well ... since we've only seen the "Song" used to help living things grow, that objection neatly spikes your entire theory, too.

 

Look ... we disagree on this.  Lets just leave it at that.

 

The Ogier sing stone as well, and make non-living wooden objects (like furniture and quarterstaffs) using the song.  As for it being a Talent, it could still be a Talent that the still Aiel posess but have no idea how to use.  Possibly Ogier must lead them?

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Ogier do not sing stone.  They work stone with tools just like humans ... they're just better at it.

 

The Ogier sing to living wood.  Once the wood is separated from the living thing, they can no longer "sing" it, to change its shape, etc.

 

The "Song" which we have seen in humans certainly can be amplified by the Ogier.  To help living things grow.

[Wayhey]

The Ogier do not sing stone.  They work stone with tools just like humans ... they're just better at it.

 

The Ogier sing to living wood.  Once the wood is separated from the living thing, they can no longer "sing" it, to change its shape, etc.

 

The "Song" which we have seen in humans certainly can be amplified by the Ogier.  To help living things grow.

 

Maybe singing while they work with stone makes the work better.  Maybe it inspires them.  :)

[Davian93]

quarterstaffs)

 

No, when Loial made his quarterstaff in TGH, he made it from a living tree and then separated as RAW stated:

 

TITLE: Great Hunt 

  CHAPTER: 15 - Kinslayer 

  Rand pulled Red up and started to ask what he was doing, but something about the Ogier's manner, as if he himself were uncertain, kept Rand silent. After staring at the tree, Loial put his hands on a trunk and began to sing in a deep, soft rumble. Rand had heard Ogier treesong, once, when Loial had sung to a dying tree and brought it back to life, and he had heard of sung wood, objects wrought from trees by the treesong. The Talent was fading, Loial said; he was one of the few who had the ability, now; that was what made sung wood even more sought after and treasured. When he had heard Loial sing before, it had been as if the earth itself sang, but now the Ogier murmured his song almost diffidently, and the land echoed it in a whisper. Rand was not sure what it was Loial did, or how; soft as the song was, it caught him up hypnotically, filling his mind almost the way the void did. Loial ran his big hands along the trunk, singing, caressing with his voice as well as his fingers. The trunk now seemed smoother, somehow, as if his stroking were shaping it. Rand blinked. He was sure the piece Loial worked on had had branches at its top just like the others, but now it stopped in a rounded end right above the Ogier's head. Rand opened his mouth, but the song quieted him. It seemed so familiar, that song, as if he should know it. Abruptly Loial's voice rose to a climax - almost a hymn of thanks, it sounded - and ended, fading as a breeze fades. In his hands Loial held a staff as tall as he was and as thick as Rand's forearm, smooth and polished. Where the trunk had been on the giantsbroom was a small stem of new growth.  

[Aguilar]

Retgardless of all theories, I suspect that the bore will be healed and not just selaed as Lews Therin did in the age of legends.  First, I remember reading somewhere that Lews Therin was originally going to seal the bore with 13 female Aes Sedai.  Instead he went with 113 male Aes Sedai because the sisters refused to go with him.  This time, Rand will have both male and female channelers with him.  Second, The wheel of time is exactly that, a wheel.  Whatever Rand does this time around, has already happened in some form or fashion.  When Rand has his vision in Rhuidean, the Aes Sedai who did not unseal the Dark One's prison, they bored a hole right into it, insinuating that there was no hole in the first place.  Therefore, the Dark One's prison will be healed somehow rather than just sealed over again.  

[Davian93]

First, I remember reading somewhere that Lews Therin was originally going to seal the bore with 13 female Aes Sedai.

 

Just a note on this. RJ stated that if women had assisted in the Sealing, then both saidar and saidin would have been tainted as a result.  So it was probably a good thing that the women sat that one out.

[Tyrell]

Just a note on this. RJ stated that if women had assisted in the Sealing, then both saidar and saidin would have been tainted as a result.  So it was probably a good thing that the women sat that one out.

 

Quote or link please?

[RobertAlexWillis]

RJ stated that if women had assisted in the Sealing, then both saidar and saidin would have been tainted as a result.  So it was probably a good thing that the women sat that one out.

 

Yeah ... I'd like to see that quote too.  I've seen this theorized, but never definitively stated by the author ...

 

I don't necessarily disagree ... it fits with alot of what I think ... I just haven't found anywhere that Jordan says "This is so."

[cloglord]

Well ... since we've only seen the "Song" used to help living things grow, that objection neatly spikes your entire theory, too.

 

Sure. Whatever you say, it spikes my whole theory that the one instance of the song we have seen in the stories was used for a purpose that effects living things. ::)

 

Never mind the Song might have other uses than the one use we have seen it put to thus far.  We also have instances like the afore mentioned treesinging, in which song is used to other effects.  Does the mention of a Ter angreal that Avhienda identified that involved holes and singing ring any bells?  How about using a song to grow the Ways?

 

Simply, we have no indication that the Pattern is in any way capable of healing itself.  None.  On the other hand, we have innumerable references to singing and the Song that are as of yet unresolved in the story.  Disagree all you want, nothing I said puts a "spike" in my theory at all.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Whatever you say, it spikes my whole theory that the one instance of the song we have seen in the stories was used for a purpose that effects living things.

 

Um ... it might be said better this way:

 

It spikes you whole theory that the ONLY instance of the song we have seen in the stories was used EXCLUSIVELY for the purpose of helping living things grow.

 

Does the mention of a Ter angreal that Avhienda identified that involved holes and singing ring any bells?  How about using a song to grow the Ways?

 

Yeah.  How about the Ways being described as a living thing?

 

Look ... you're missing the best argument you could muster here.  Use my own idea against me.  If the Pattern is a living thing, capable of healing itself, then the "Song" should be able to help it, right?  Do I have to do both ends of this argument now?

 

Simply, we have no indication that the Pattern is in any way capable of healing itself.

 

Rand says that he pokes holes in it with the Power all the time.  Those holes aren't there any more.

 

Moridin ripped a hole in the fabric of reality to Travel with the True Power.  And, "To his ears, the world screamed as he used the True Power to rip a small hole and step outside the Pattern." (ACoS ch 20)

 

Sure sounds like getting wounded to me.  But I bet there isn't a second Bore in the hills east of Dumai's Wells.  So what happened to that hole?

 

No, we don't have proof that theory is correct.  But there are indications that the Pattern can and does heal itself.

 

------------------

 

Lets just say, again, that we disagree, OK?

[OmegaGoku]

Ibelieve that it will be impossible to seal the bore using the op because of the back lash of the dark ones taint. and if saidan and sadair were usued it would only mean that both sides would be tainted it would have to be the song of the leaf of some other way that has not beed thout of yet. well we will know in amol

[DemandredFO]

I agree about the tainting if lesser amounts of the power are used but the Choedan Kal is the MOST POWERFUL sa'angreal ever made.  So I believe Rand, with the Choedan Kal, can shove the Dark One out of the hole is the Pattern.  Look at it this way, or at least how I see it, Lews Therin dammed the flow of a river but built an imperfect dam so that water(The True Power) could be forced through.  What Rand is trying to do is hold back the river so that a perfect dam can be built.  I hope that helps

[Davian93]

Just a note on this. RJ stated that if women had assisted in the Sealing, then both saidar and saidin would have been tainted as a result.  So it was probably a good thing that the women sat that one out.

 

Yeah ... I'd like to see that quote too.  I've seen this theorized, but never definitively stated by the author ...

 

RJ stated this in the Budapest interview that used to be available on this site.

[RobertAlexWillis]

By "this site" I assume you mean Dragonmount, since you didn't give a link ....

 

 

Hmmm ....

 

 

I'd still love to see it, with all the context surrounding it.  I mean, Jordan had the "scholar" who "found" The Strike at Shayol Ghul comment on the possibility in his "notes", but again, I've never seen it definitively stated.

[Davian93]

Yes, I meant Dragonmount.  The link no longer works.  When I looked for it I noticed that Dragonmount doesnt have any of his interviews online anymore until DM 7.0 or something like that.

[Phil_Megrim]

Okay, here's my theory that I've finnally been able to think about.

 

Firstly, when Lews Therin Talamon and his hundred Companions sealed the bore they were trying to seal it completely hence why they used crulendar seals since they're indestructible...however doing so created a backlash that tainted the power....I think whatever seals this bore finally and completely it mustn't be channeled at or else there will be a backlash.

 

Secondly, I think Rand doing the mindswap thingy with Moridin is the key to closing the bore because he'll have access to the True Source that comes from DO.

 

Thirdly, remember that when he clensed saidin?  Well he used Shadar Logar as a type of absorber so to speak since it cancels out the taint...kinda like in Final Fantasy:Spirits Within.  Now even though it was destroyed there is still someone left with strong connections to SL.  Fain.  Not to mention he still has the tainted dagger.  And since Fain practically has Ordeth inside him which was the central pillar of destroying Aridol I think that Fain is also key to sealing up to bore...or to take away the DO's "finger" so the bore can be sealed completely.

 

And lastly if the above isn't what seals the bore, I think that Rand's children will seal the bore somehow cause teh Dragon prophecys says that "his blood will fall ont he slopes of Shayol Gaul" I think that perhaps that is what is means is his decendants will be the one's to seal up the bore. 

[Mr Ares]

Okay, here's my theory that I've finally been able to think about.

 

Firstly, when Lews Therin Talamon and his hundred Companions sealed the bore they were trying to seal it completely hence why they used crulendar seals since they're indestructible...however doing so created a backlash that tainted the power....I think whatever seals this bore finally and completely it mustn't be channeled at or else there will be a backlash.

Shai'tan caused the backlash, the channeling just left saidin open to His attack

 

Secondly, I think Rand doing the mindswap thingy with Moridin is the key to closing the bore because he'll have access to the True Source that comes from DO.

Why? How will that help? And why should Rand be able to channel it, rather than control remining with Moridin?

 

T

hirdly, remember that when he clensed saidin?

Vaguely... 

Well he used Shadar Logar as a type of absorber so to speak since it cancels out the taint...kinda like in Final Fantasy:Spirits Within.

More like matter and antimatter. 

Now even though it was destroyed there is still someone left with strong connections to SL.  Fain.  Not to mention he still has the tainted dagger.  And since Fain practically has Mordeth inside him which was the central pillar of destroying Aridhol I think that Fain is also key to sealing up to bore...or to take away the DO's "finger" so the bore can be sealed completely.

Why? How? Fain is minute next to the awesome might of Shai'tan. More likely the 3 ta'veren will have somethng to do with it.

And lastly if the above isn't what seals the bore, I think that Rand's children will seal the bore somehow cause the Dragon prophecys says that "his blood will fall on the slopes of Shayol Ghul" I think that perhaps that is what is means is his decendants will be the one's to seal up the bore.

His children will most likely not be born by the time TG takes place. And Rand's blood could just, JUST, refer to his actual, physical, literal blood. Why not? He already has a tendency to bleed all over the place, so him going to SG and opening up, dying, living again is far from unreasonable.

[Aguilar]

After reading all of htese theories, it seems that everyone focuses on the song as an important tool in the healing of the bore.  What if it is a by-product of the healing?  Could it be possible that as Rand heals the bore, it produces a musical tone or frequency that the Aielmen take up as a way of remembering the vitory over the shadow?.  It would be just like Robert Jordan to mislead us and then go a totally different direction all-together that in hind sight makes perfecet sense.  Persoanlly though I just don't see the song as having any effecton the patttern.  The whole entirety of the ceremony Rand saw was a celebration.  The plants could have grown so well because of the Nym rather than the song.

[Kura]

Persoanlly though I just don't see the song as having any effecton the patttern.  The whole entirety of the ceremony Rand saw was a celebration.  The plants could have grown so well because of the Nym rather than the song.

 

Unless you can provide some hardcore proof, I have to disagree with you. From what we know the 'Voice' is a specific talent that the Aiel had, mentioned by LTT in tEotW prologue, and in the flashback it seemed that the Aiel were doing more than signing for the hell of it, plus Ogier tree-singing. We KNOW that has a positive effect on growing things. Though yeah, the Nym didn't hurt matters.  ;)

[Phil_Megrim]

His children will most likely not be born by the time TG takes place. And Rand's blood could just, JUST, refer to his actual, physical, literal blood. Why not? He already has a tendency to bleed all over the place, so him going to SG and opening up, dying, living again is far from unreasonable.

 

and here's the answer to that one

It would be just like Robert Jordan to mislead us and then go a totally different direction all-together that in hind sight makes perfecet sense.

 

Think about Lews Therin Kinslayer.  Throughout the first three books Be`alzamon/Isamael kept refering to Lews Therin killing his entire bloodline and being manipulated to, it wasn't some random maddness that he happened to have killed his entire bloodline along with servants and the like, it almost seemed like the Shadow got wind of a Prophecy dealing with "blood on the rocks of Shayol Gaul" and they figured out that even his decendants would be privy to that part.  We've seen RJ skirt by a plotline and mention it a few times hoping it'll be missed but then bammo there it is right in the front staring you in the face. 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Throughout the first three books Be`alzamon/Isamael kept refering to Lews Therin killing his entire bloodline and being manipulated to, it wasn't some random maddness that he happened to have killed his entire bloodline along with servants and the like, it almost seemed like the Shadow got wind of a Prophecy dealing with "blood on the rocks of Shayol Gaul" and they figured out that even his decendants would be privy to that part.

 

Um ... the prophecy about "his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" was made after Lews Therin's death, regarding the Dragon Reborn.  It couldn't have influenced the Shadow in any way during Lews Therin's life.

 

Look ... Rand doesn't have any descendants yet, and he won't by the time of Tarmon Gai'don.  His wound breaks open all the time.  Seriously ... this is a case of choosing to overcomplicate something that isn't that complicated.  Rand's going to bleed all over the place and die at Shayol Ghul.

[Davian93]

Seriously ... this is a case of choosing to overcomplicate something that isn't that complicated.  Rand's going to bleed all over the place and die at Shayol Ghul.

 

Someting about a Razor I believe...